Scarf Sneasler is an incredibly underrated threat right now in my opinion. Outspeeds every relevant non-scarf threat in the meta, fast pivot with poison touch is amazing for chip, dire claw is dire claw, and switcheroo means you still have something for Giratina or any other wall really. Magearna hates to switch into stab CC, lando is being outsped with or without scarf and either poisoned or taking a solid chunk of HP, and tera dark means an extra turn to stay in on Mewtwo or Spectrier for a dire claw proc, same for stored power sets! Obviously doesn’t work in every situation but it’s a phenomenal set that should definitely get more attention.
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Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Spectrier Ban @ Post 702)
- Thread starter KineSquared
- Start date
Scarf Sneasler has been around for a pretty long time atp, and there's kind of a reason it's never really picked up traction. For one, Scarf Sneasler just cannot ever break Arceus-Poison, regardless of whether it's defensive or not. Specifically SpD Mag doesn't enjoy coming in on CCs, but also Solgaleo really doesn't mind coming in much at all really. You also say that Dire Claw is Dire Claw, but it's too inconsistent to reliably use it to force progress. Switcheroo is also just not good. It works in theory that you can just cripple the pokemon you can't touch (outside of arc-poison), but once you play a game, you realize that it's nearly impossible to ever actualy click switcheroo because then you lose your speed control. Scarf It's also just sort of weak and can only revenge Arc-Dark and Tera Faerie Arceus, despite the fact that we're currently seeing a pretty big uptick in setup Arceus of all forms. Sneasler can work alongside something like Lando who threaten the stuff that likes coming in on sneasler uturns, but it's just not very great as a standalone form of speed control.
Emu has been a point of contention ever since ppl started using Hypnosis on it to get the extra turns it needs to become a genuine threat. At first, I (and many others) didn't take it seriously, and just called it ladder cheese since nobody had the balls to actually bring Hypathra to a tour set. However, as of recent, Dorron hit 2/2 hypnosises, and got 2-turn sleeps both times, allowing him to completely bring back a lost game. Was it completely matchup fishing for no SpD Tina and no Hamurott? Yes. Is it worth keeping anyways? No. Even if a Pokemon/mechanic is a god-awful matchup fish, it's no excuse to keep around something that introduces so much variance. I've seen enough and I think that there's really just not a good reason to hold off on doing something.
As of now, I'm of the opinion that Espathra is the primary problem, as there hasn't yet been anything else that has abused Hypnosis to this extent. Hypnosis Ninetales sun and veil are things that have both existed, but have yet to accomplish egregious results. My current thoughts are that Espathra ought to go, but we can revisit the topic if more Hypnosis starts being a problem.
As of now, I'm of the opinion that Espathra is the primary problem, as there hasn't yet been anything else that has abused Hypnosis to this extent. Hypnosis Ninetales sun and veil are things that have both existed, but have yet to accomplish egregious results. My current thoughts are that Espathra ought to go, but we can revisit the topic if more Hypnosis starts being a problem.
hard agree
but just ban sleep moves as a whole, i have seen unspeakable things on ladder including and but not limited to, flittle, darkrai, and hypnosis ival. just add the sleep moves clause and be done with it, its just mu fishing cheese with gambling added on, and i've been saying it for quite a while now.
If people want to suspect Espathra, I think it's fair if it gets a high enough score on a survey. It's definitely not a major problem though so there shouldn't be any discussion of quickbanning, and there's absolutely no problem with other sleep users so banning Sleep altogether would be very silly.
Few things to say as i'm quite educated on the matter
Yeah i agree, this is stupid, been saying it August, this mechanic is generally unhealthy and has no real reason to be kept
The ban on the emu itself is not good in my opinion as sleep abuse can be replicated inside of shed tail by other options, notably the much worse Iron Valiant
If we really can't ban sleep itself an Espathra suspect would be fine enough and it's removal would be overall positive on the metagame
Genuine question, is there any sleep move that is a problem besides hypnosis? spore isn't well enough distributed, powder moves are even more cheesey and unreliable, and dire claw doesn't proc enough. Would banning just hypnosis be a satisfactory third alternative? I had similar thoughts when hypnosis ival and darkrai were running around in OU. Here we'd also have the worry that banning sleep and lifting the sleep clause could potentially open the gates for massive dire claw cheese. I would not want to be the first person with 2 mons put to sleep by two 16% chances.
Dark Void does also exist in addition to Hypnosis. Sleep Powder is actually more accurate than Hypnosis. I do think that Hypnosis (or really just any sleep move that isn't 100% accurate) is really the root issue here, but it's hard to make a ban case for anything that hasn't actually demonstrated itself to have problematic effects
No, there are no actual problematic mons using any sleep moves besides Espathra. There are definitely other mons that use Hypnosis, but none of them have ever presented a problem of any sorts. And I've used Amoonguss Spore on teams and it's been effective but not problematic.
Ultimately the only problem in the entire metagame related to sleep is Espathra using Hypnosis. Blaming on Hypnosis is kinda dumb though - you can't tell me if Espathra had access to a higher accuracy Sleep move that it'd be less problematic lol the problem is obviously not Hypnosis, it's Espathra, if there even is a problem. I'm not convinced personally but can understand if the people want to suspect it.
Espathra without sleep is a match up fish, if Hypnopathra is real enough to bring to a tour game, why not treat it as real and make teams that don't rely on sleep rng? Why does Hypnopathra have to stay as a match up fish instead of become meta? If you really wanna run Screens HO (I believe the only team that cant afford hazards or Tina), then maybe you should be teaching stuff for it, like Magearna or some cope Steel alongside a Dark-type, Dorron's Espathra was tb ground to not lose to Magearna but that meant Moon beats it if you keep another Pokemon asleep. Just another little thing to account in the builder, Deo HO has more options in Ekiller, and its not hard for defensive teams to have multiple ways of beating Espathra, hell most of them already run Giratina + a Steel.
Partially against it because we're an Ubers tier, and see the ban threshold a little higher. Espathra isn't particularily restrictive but if you guys are determined to get rid of sleep anyway, then definitely ban Espathra itself, Espathra without Hypnosis is just as fishy as Hypnopathra (See Frito vs Temp) and doesn't add anything to the game, which is what is being complained about.
Partially against it because we're an Ubers tier, and see the ban threshold a little higher. Espathra isn't particularily restrictive but if you guys are determined to get rid of sleep anyway, then definitely ban Espathra itself, Espathra without Hypnosis is just as fishy as Hypnopathra (See Frito vs Temp) and doesn't add anything to the game, which is what is being complained about.
Ban sleep if any tiering action is seriously considered, shit has been a headache for 9 generations straight and let Smogon create a petmod clause (with Stadium games as a precedent) for over 2 decades and adds nothing to not just this tier. I don't see a reason to kill time with a Espathra suspect when we all know that Sleep as a whole is the issue.
If espathra had a higher accuracy move it would be broken too though? If last respects had a clone with the same effect but 70BP instead of 50BP increases, that would also be broken and need banning from OU. I just hear people saying "well what about Ival with hypnosis? what about darkrai with hypnosis?" etc. If dark void is equally stupid even with the lower accuracy then yea maybe all sleep has to go, but any mon I hear being discussed is dumb with hypnosis. Sleep powder doesn't have good enough mons and technically has counterplay with grass types (read:hogerpon).
Maybe hypnosis shouldn't be considered on its own, but i think the mons going for yawn, spore, and dire claw are very different and less probalematic than hypnosis. If darkrai is the only one allowed to go for sleep cheese through dark void, honestly thats kinda funny and wouldn't be relevant because its darkrai.
Also one game of a Bo1 (inherently MU fishy) HO vs HO where one team gets lucky is not grounds for a ban. I know this is being played as the straw the broke the camels back, but I'd argue that the camel wasn't about to collapse.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was responding to the notion that Hypnosis was a problem because it was a low accuracy move thereby making it more up to chance and that making it problematic, moreso than moves like Spore. I think that notion is silly and you can't really detach the moves from the mons. I have not seen anything else that has ever been a problem related to any sleep moves besides Espathra. And even still, I'm not sure if Espathra is a big enough problem to warrant a ban, but I support a suspect if that's what the people want. I don't support any action on Sleep altogether because it's frankly not a problem on anything beyond Espathra.
ban hypnosis and darkrai just uses dark void instead. banning sleep overall has many benefits, that people support/like on varying levels, but getting rid of sleep in its entirety, to me, is the most beneficial thing we can do. and also, thats a clean robbery of a game in a set, like dorron would be completely lost in that game if no hypnosis luck, and hypnosis espathra was so common during suspects because you can just cheese your way past problems, and when the problem is both high ladder and now seeping into tour play, i say we just get rid of it altogether.
Are you able to delineate any specific examples w/ replays of when any sleep user besides Espathra was able to "steal" a game away? Because if not, then I find it hard to say that sleep without Espathra is a significant problem warranting action.
Yea but then you've playing 5v6 with a 50% chance of putting one mon to sleep. If darkrai currently had usage or viability I'd be worried, but I'm not
As far as I know the only data we've collected about that are surveys like this one, where the unqualified gave it a 4.47/10 and the qualified gave it a 4.28/10. As the new shifts come in we'll probably put out a new survey, but this does not suggest broad support to me yet
EDIT: last survey was actually 5.39/4.89 between unqual/qual, still lacking a high rating but the controversial aspect is there, my bad.
There's no way Darkrai and Iron Valiant are in this discussion. Both are just bad regardless of how lucky they are, thud into Magearna, Zacian, and even neutral Arceus. They're set up fodder for Poison, Valiant can get blanked by Moltres and Solgaleo, while Darkrai just sucks into the plethora of dark resists. Neither is even on the VR for obvious reasons, not something that will appear in major games and not worth looking into imo.
i would like to note, that in this exact tour, Temp brought non hypnosis espathra as a matchup fish, game is here, and that the bring of espathra was a matchup fish for both games that it showed up, a Pokémon showing up in a tournament game does not mean it is not fishing, be it for luck or a matchup.
The claim that banning espathra is better due to it adding nothing to the tier can be replicated just the same with hypnosis, i have not seen a singular positive thing this mechanic has given this tier, while espathra is also really annoying without hypnosis, it feels desingenuous to put it on the same caliber as something that just wins 30% of the time if you don't have 2 counters, Espathra without hypnosis has consistent counterplay, with it, the most you can say is bring a Spdef Solgaleo and pray it's not Tera Blast Fire and gets 3 turns of sleep, cause then it's over, sleep saccing is not a valid argument considering that if the Pathra player so chooses, they can simply calm mind on your sleep sacrifice, or worse, you needing to sleep another setup mon's anwser.
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2271739084-lku800dowht52wyaxxt8pk4qhwadexepw
heres one of hypnoisis (not even espathra!) just ohkoing a key arceus on turn one bc it felt like it (exhibit a: this move /mechanic is dumb)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2183432764-mzdcb2bebn3zsb35732i3p2q297kl9hpw (oh hey its me tilting bc how much i saw this shitty move on ladder during the suspect)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2183659687-u7yhovavq4b9eig88dc9zotw1azxkzgpw (another provided by the fishinator)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2271746351 wow look at this amazing replay where espathra kills gira for free bc of a 3 turn sleep and dents the magearna.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2271754294
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2007834744
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2182205567-jlnq7hc2hnt9h5q74lzn4kr4ruw6glmpw (fucking flittle btw.)
I said besides Espathra, so this is 3 replays for that supporting sleep ban over Espathra. I don’t think Flittle is serious so I’m ignoring that one. The Darkrai one looks like it’s from a meta in the year 1956 so that’s not really applicable.
I’ll give you the Ninetales one, that sleep did make quite a difference so I have some disagreements with how it was played. Still don’t think it “stole” the game though.
The Espathra replays don’t really matter as my question was presented as why does Sleep matter without Espathra, as our duty in tiering any tier begins with the individual Pokemon themselves.
The flittle one may not be 100% serious but entirely discounting it like that is disingenuous - see arena trap getting banned in oldgens over dug because of people going to diglett. In addition, the flittle use is directly attributable to the exact traits of espathra, being stacked WITH said espathra to maximize the sleep and sweep chance.
Flittle is not good and if you lose to it you are bad
The thing is that people are not losing to Flittle per se. It's the idea that sleep enabled for something like Flittle to do that in the first place, which is why people lose sleep over losing to sleep. :P