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Announcement SV Ubers UU Suspect Process Round 5: Dogs - Zacian Suspect

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FishyRoads said:
Okay, a few things
1. Trailblaze Zacian is not losing to the defensive counterplay you listed given the right item, coverage or Tera, since , Quagsire loses to any variant, Terapagos loses to standard Trailblaze and especially hard to Tera Ghost variants, Clefable and Dondozo lose to Tera Fairy boosting item, Moltres and Tina both lose to Lum Berry variants, and are forced to Tera before Zacian is (Moltres is a guessing game of is it Wild Charge which by itself is quite losing).
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What Tera or item is Zacian gonna do to stop Tina and Moltres from Roaring it out? Quagsire does lose if you don't tera but when fighting vs Tblaze Zacian its either dying or committing Tera, so why are people hesitant on committing their own Tera? And If I saw Wcharge + Tblaze thats some mega hating and I would be very concerned for viability.
FishyRoads said:
2. Saying Zacian is a one time sweeper is just wrong, yeah, it's considerably easier to handle after inteprid but it can very much come in early, wallbreak for itself, come in later in the game and clean up, especially true for Substitute or Trailblaze variants.
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120 Atk with 90 BP moves will have a very hard time wallbreaking when you look at the rest of the tier, definitely not very crazy after initial boost is no more. Also feels far worse to commit tera on because its no longer consistently blowing up whats infront of it. Sub/Tblaze get the same tratement, phased out or unawared on.
FishyRoads said:
3. All of this is without mentioning the entire ramifications of Choice Band variants, who are by themselves amazing and completely change how you handle Zacian
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Not quite, boohoo my Quagsire or Solgaleo took a little under 50, reveals itself instantly and honestly makes you relieved since its much easier to handle and theres a lot more room for error.
 
LovelyLuna said:
What Tera or item is Zacian gonna do to stop Tina and Moltres from Roaring it out? Quagsire does lose if you don't tera but when fighting vs Tblaze Zacian its either dying or committing Tera, so why are people hesitant on committing their own Tera? And If I saw Wcharge + Tblaze thats some mega hating and I would be very concerned for viability.
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gonna be a long one
Firstly, Giratina is forced to burn Tera to phaze which basically means you are sacrificing half a Pokémon and your Tera just to force Zacian out (a very good trade for the dog player)
Moltres has the same issue alongside the fact that after Tera, it dies to +3 Tera Fairy Play Rough about 62% of the time
Quagsire loses to standard Trailblaze, and then depending on the Tera, it either loses to Tera Fairy boosting item or Tera Ground
I have used Wild Charge Trailblaze before so uh, hi.
LovelyLuna said:
120 Atk with 90 BP moves will have a very hard time wallbreaking when you look at the rest of the tier, definitely not very crazy after initial boost is no more. Also feels far worse to commit tera on because its no longer consistently blowing up whats infront of it. Sub/Tblaze get the same tratement, phased out or unawared on.
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120 90 is absolutely plenty to clean a weakened team with a Swords Dance considering Zacian's speed, bulk and very good stab typing, refer breaking more towards inteprid Zacian for post inteprid which is absolutely the case
LovelyLuna said:
Not quite, boohoo my Quagsire or Solgaleo took a little under 50, reveals itself instantly and honestly makes you relieved since its much easier to handle and theres a lot more room for error.
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Yeah sure, it's more manageable, but it absolutely has strengths, and handles things that otherwise beat Zacian, CB has a very deep bag where if you swap into the wrong thing you just lose a Pokémon, Solgaleo gets TB Fired for like 80 if not just dying with the Spdef set and Quag just dies to CB Trailblaze, it absolutely exists and gets played around differently
 
FishyRoads said:
gonna be a long one
Firstly, Giratina is forced to burn Tera to phaze which basically means you are sacrificing half a Pokémon and your Tera just to force Zacian out (a very good trade for the dog player)
Moltres has the same issue alongside the fact that after Tera, it dies to +3 Tera Fairy Play Rough about 62% of the time
Quagsire loses to standard Trailblaze, and then depending on the Tera, it either loses to Tera Fairy boosting item or Tera Ground
I have used Wild Charge Trailblaze before so uh, hi.
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I see no issues :3 Giratina's hp is very recoverable and this is so you can check a Pokemon with its Tera. Moltres recovers even easier and roars your ass back before you can kill it with +3 Tera Fairy nuke. Phase it out is often a lot since Zacian has a harder time finding opportunities to roll you over and you need to play passively enough for Zac to get entry multiple times.
Quagsire can lose to some sets yeah, but I don't think this is as terrible of an issue. Zac just demands more than one Pokemon to handle it and thats very achieable, for example fitting a bulky bird (not Mandibuzz) alongside Tera Poison Quag, or a Steel alongside Tera Fairy Quag. Some will tell you this restricts teambuilding but honestly seems fine in an Ubers tier AND when you're determined to using the worst archetype.
I'll pretend last line doesn't exist
FishyRoads said:
120 90 is absolutely plenty to clean a weakened team with a Swords Dance considering Zacian's speed, bulk and very good stab typing, refer breaking more towards inteprid Zacian for post inteprid which is absolutely the case
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Clean up, yes, wallbreak, no. If you got into a position where you could clean up with Zacian thats like chipping at the opponent for Arceus or Gouging Fire to win the game, played well enough to enable this same as any other sweeper.
FishyRoads said:
Yeah sure, it's more manageable, but it absolutely has strengths, and handles things that otherwise beat Zacian, CB has a very deep bag where if you swap into the wrong thing you just lose a Pokémon, Solgaleo gets TB Fired for like 80 if not just dying with the Spdef set and Quag just dies to CB Trailblaze, it absolutely exists and gets played around differently
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I'll quickly say I don't believe in CB Tera Blast very much, if you're going to commit Tera for coverage anyway you might as well sweep with perfect coverage and not have to deal with pointy stones. Trailblaze most notably doesnt kill Quagsire with Super effective -> vs neutral Tera and loses you a ridiculous amount of momentum, which Id say is very important in UUbers even outside of Zacian.
 
LovelyLuna said:
I see no issues :3 Giratina's hp is very recoverable and this is so you can check a Pokemon with its Tera. Moltres recovers even easier and roars your ass back before you can kill it with +3 Tera Fairy nuke. Phase it out is often a lot since Zacian has a harder time finding opportunities to roll you over and you need to play passively enough for Zac to get entry multiple times.
Quagsire can lose to some sets yeah, but I don't think this is as terrible of an issue. Zac just demands more than one Pokemon to handle it and thats very achieable, for example fitting a bulky bird (not Mandibuzz) alongside Tera Poison Quag, or a Steel alongside Tera Fairy Quag. Some will tell you this restricts teambuilding but honestly seems fine in an Ubers tier AND when you're determined to using the worst archetype.
I'll pretend last line doesn't exist
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It is usually less about Gira HP and more about spend Tera to stop non Tera, though Giratina HP means that Restless Gira can't really do this and Rest Gira while it can it doesn't really want to.
You absolutely underestimate Zacian's ability to generate opportunities to SD, it gets on a lot of very common things, notably CM Taunt Arceus Dark, CC locked scarf urshes and Giratina.
bulky bird + tpoison quag also needs speed control as it loses to tbground wild charge, Solg + Tera Quag does work, Stall does well into non Sub/CB but struggles plenty with those, HO is basically locked into running Gfire or Pceus and then winning the 50 50 of TB Ground, Offense has about the same issues as balance into Zacian, while one might argue that is fine for an ubers tier, i still feel like it is a bit too much for us
 
FishyRoads said:
It is usually less about Gira HP and more about spend Tera to stop non Tera, though Giratina HP means that Restless Gira can't really do this and Rest Gira while it can it doesn't really want to.
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Im guessing you're referencing opening up holes for Pokemon like Poisonceus. But if Tera Tina is your best out against Zacian, the team should probably have stronger Poisonceus lines too.
FishyRoads said:
You absolutely underestimate Zacian's ability to generate opportunities to SD, it gets on a lot of very common things, notably CM Taunt Arceus Dark, CC locked scarf urshes and Giratina.
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Hardswitch into speed control trust. It just doesn't have the same calcs without Intrepid though, you don't OHKO Moltres and can get Wisped/roared again, cant OHKO Solgaleo/Mag, etc. If a team can't afford to be doing this then you try and minimize Zac's entries, for example don't begin your Darkceus sweep or use CC Urshifu to take out opposing Darkceus, and more.
FishyRoads said:
bulky bird + tpoison quag also needs speed control as it loses to tbground wild charge, Solg + Tera Quag does work, Stall does well into non Sub/CB but struggles plenty with those, HO is basically locked into running Gfire or Pceus and then winning the 50 50 of TB Ground, Offense has about the same issues as balance into Zacian, while one might argue that is fine for an ubers tier, i still feel like it is a bit too much for us
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Almost every team needs speed control but this isn't true though, fitting all 3 coverage moves would require dropping SD or Play Rough, which is like...
Id say stall is pretty fit at dealing with CB/Sub Zac if it's not Trailblaze + the right Tera, which is pretty much never happening when you want SD Play Rough. And even then still a ton of things stall can do, Id bring up Lugia & Dozo but I don't remember what Pokemon Stall exactly runs.

As for HO; Red Card Mimikyu saved my ass using Rasche's team, and HO doesnt really need to 50/50 since Zac isn't punishing tera very hard. HO can also run Terapagos/Volcarona/Tera Steel Latios for some niche options. LO Deoxys HO for speed control when...
 
To be sure, is that what is needed to validate the suspect? Otherwise, I don't know if it's my playstyle but Zacian was the most annoying Pokémon to deal with, landorus's sludge wave cannot one-shot it (with tera water it's even worse) and I had to sac one or two mons each game. Therefore I'm still gonna think about it to avoid getting influenced by the weaknesses of the teams I used
 

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Burning Showman said:
To be sure, is that what is needed to validate the suspect? Otherwise, I don't know if it's my playstyle but Zacian was the most annoying Pokémon to deal with, landorus's sludge wave cannot one-shot it (with tera water it's even worse) and I had to sac one or two mons each game. Therefore I'm still gonna think about it to avoid getting influenced by the weaknesses of the teams I used
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Out of curiosity, what was your team/style? Find it hard for majority of good teams to end up struggling against Zacian.
 
LovelyLuna said:
Out of curiosity, what was your team/style? Find it hard for majority of good teams to end up struggling against Zacian.
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https://pokepast.es/6e425dc608fcb350 https://pokepast.es/0cdab34535231b88 I already used the second one for a previous suspect, they both are "control" with a lack of immediate power that makes me unable to OHKO Zacian (and after a Trailblaze he can outspeed the whole sand team)
By the way the paste is wrong I had zap cannon over ice beam on magearna
 
Burning Showman said:
To be sure, is that what is needed to validate the suspect? Otherwise, I don't know if it's my playstyle but Zacian was the most annoying Pokémon to deal with, landorus's sludge wave cannot one-shot it (with tera water it's even worse) and I had to sac one or two mons each game. Therefore I'm still gonna think about it to avoid getting influenced by the weaknesses of the teams I used
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just make sure you have used /linkaccount while signed into your suspect account and you should show up on the list!
 
Burning Showman said:
https://pokepast.es/6e425dc608fcb350 https://pokepast.es/0cdab34535231b88 I already used the second one for a previous suspect, they both are "control" with a lack of immediate power that makes me unable to OHKO Zacian (and after a Trailblaze he can outspeed the whole sand team)
By the way the paste is wrong I had zap cannon over ice beam on magearna
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idk how you pulled off reqs tbh, congrats. These teams look awful to use.

Tera Blast Ice Exca is probably outdated to the LandoT days, using one of the weakest forms of speed control, Pressure Lugia because of Sand, try to make it a balance with Alo + Mag on a naturally offensive style (Sand). I don't think this team even beats Ekiller, CM Iceus, Deoxys, Kyurem, Roaring Moon, and some others Ive probably missed

Cristal is Cyclizar Shed Tail but 3 other defensive Pokemon and a single mediocre sweeper, this is bound to fail. Anything that requires offensive counterplay you can't really beat and there isnt synergy between the Pokemon.
 
LovelyLuna said:
idk how you pulled off reqs tbh, congrats. These teams look awful to use.

Tera Blast Ice Exca is probably outdated to the LandoT days, using one of the weakest forms of speed control, Pressure Lugia because of Sand, try to make it a balance with Alo + Mag on a naturally offensive style (Sand). I don't think this team even beats Ekiller, CM Iceus, Deoxys, Kyurem, Roaring Moon, and some others Ive probably missed

Cristal is Cyclizar Shed Tail but 3 other defensive Pokemon and a single mediocre sweeper, this is bound to fail. Anything that requires offensive counterplay you can't really beat and there isnt synergy between the Pokemon.
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i think the second team works because a lot of teams (especially common ho builds) wont inherently have the tools to maneuver around sableye just shutting them down as they get chipped enough for pfin and lando to clean, ive seen it in action and if u dont go in knowing your wincon vs this team it can get a lot of sneaky wins, idt its the most consistent but its def not "bound to fail" just pretty gimmicky and reliant on susprise factor (which has been a lot of teams used for suspects tbf lol). Kind of playing devils advocate but teams like this pull off wins for a reason, even if on paper it looks like they shouldnt.
 
Celeste said:
i think the second team works because a lot of teams (especially common ho builds) wont inherently have the tools to maneuver around sableye just shutting them down as they get chipped enough for pfin and lando to clean, ive seen it in action and if u dont go in knowing your wincon vs this team it can get a lot of sneaky wins, idt its the most consistent but its def not "bound to fail" just pretty gimmicky and reliant on susprise factor (which has been a lot of teams used for suspects tbf lol). Kind of playing devils advocate but teams like this pull off wins for a reason, even if on paper it looks like they shouldnt.
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I get Sableye + Cyclizar is fine, I've seen it a while back becoming part of the usage stats too. I don't understand the AV Alomomola & Magearna though, should just lean into the offense part if you're not dedicating to Stall.
 
Actually there are probably outdated because I built them a long time ago (and I didn't played many tournaments) but on ladder they... didn't stop me from winning Elo. I admit they need some specific gameplans against some threats though. This said, Lugia Pressure is not for sand but to check legendaries with low PP attacks such as Palkia o or urshifu rs, and cyclizar is more an utility spinner than a sub passer (the main goal of the team is to beat sweepers with slowturn mola on encore sab)
 
LovelyLuna said:
I get Sableye + Cyclizar is fine, I've seen it a while back becoming part of the usage stats too. I don't understand the AV Alomomola & Magearna though, should just lean into the offense part if you're not dedicating to Stall.
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i dont get it on this team structure but it works well enough, Leo i think av alo corv on a more balancey type team and while i think the team had significant defensive flaws its a good way to blanket check things on bulky offense, maintain hazard support, etc
 
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