SV UU Suspect Process Round 10 - Pop Goes the Weasel

[Estarossa]

Just got my reqs, wanted to do that earlier but COVID had something else to say about that. Very much leaning no ban here, like Lily and a few others say teams do just tend to be stacking on good counteplay to weavile in general with things like Cobalion, Heatran, Quav, Lokix, Tink, Sciz, Dirge, Skarm... etc.

I feel like ladder was not a good showcase at all of this mons capabilities if I were to be totally fair, I saw not too much of it and it was all just the boots sets but the impression reqs and my previous laddering outside of this left me with was that it was a useful presence to limit offense to an extent with its natural speed allowing it to run boots while not being overwhelming while doing so as Moute mentions. Having something faster than torn in that role is also a useful too. While there definitely is a potential for SD tera sets on paper I haven't seen them really actually come into light and a lot of it feels like it comes down to natural checks to weavile and a lack of good opportunities for it to ever do anything but attack the thing infront of it at times too.

For me in practice the only way I've really felt different when playing around Weavile, knowing I need to run counterplay to the thing because of stuff like hoopa already making u like the mons anyway, is that I need to be more mindful of set ups I perform with some of my more offensive mons and the hp i'm leaving them all at, in a way I actually appreciate that we do get another pokemon that can help limit game sweepers like that a bit.

While I do see the angle people are going at for SD Tera sets, what I have actually seen of weavile in my own games and other games ive watched definitely does not feel banworthy to me, until I actually see clearer consistency of said sets people have mentioned, and Id like to see its presence grow a bit more as a decent offensive threat and naturally fast Pokemon with nice anti-offense propoerties.

 

[Catcus]

I've been reflecting about weavile and I think I'm leaning more towards DNB now. I still think weavile is annoying to deal with at the moment, but it isn't impossible. Weavile kinda has trouble clicking it's attacks when the threat of tera is omnipresent, and its frailty makes it super risky to click its moves with a possible tera into a ko. It also seems like an Okidogi test is all but guaranteed, and i think after it goes, weavile could actually be a pretty positive meta force in a meta with presumably more bulky cores with mons like hydrapple taking off. It would give us a nice way to threaten these cores and keep them in check. I do get the argument of just wanting to remove some threats, but compared to other threats like hoopa or dogi, weavile feels like it requires a bit more skill to use properly and isn't as much of an ooga booga click moves kill stuff mon. Plus it also has some sort of clear positive presence unlike some threats like cornerpon(if we still consider that a threat lmao.). I also agree with a thought I've seen floating around that we only really need one super fast dark type knock clicker, but between hoopa and weavile, i'd much rather keep weavile as hoopa honestly feels more oppressive in builder and in games.

I also feel like my earlier comment about weavile being unhealthy hasn't really panned out. it's kinda hard to blame weavile for bulky offense being dominant as it was already pretty dominant pre-shifts and other mons have a much bigger influence on it's dominance(cough cough, dogi.) A lot of the meta shifts weavile has caused also aren't particularly signs of brokenness. It isn't suddenly making mid mons that check it like azu or pex much better besides maybe keldeo, but even then the increase in HO is nice for it and honestly I don't even think personally that keldeo is that good rn. Most of the checks that have risen have other reasons for rising up like quaq also appreciating a renewed HO, scizor loving zapdos leaving or cobalion just still being great. It also hasn't really stopped weavile weak threats from rising in viability like sinistcha or salamence. The only things I'd say have been notably invalidated are gligar and mamoswine, who are definitely still viable picks despite getting worse.

I'd also like to say that this suspect isn't determining the fate of the tier or anything. If weavile stays, we get a good ice type for once. If it leaves, whatever. We probably go back to something similar to last month but with some new toys like heatran and some new discoveries and developments like manaphy and salamence. The tier's still fine either way! I'll also say that I think no matter if it's banned or not, I could see a further examination of the mon down the line, either through a new suspect or a potential unban depending on the results, being worth trying. For now though, I think not banning it is the right move.

 

[shooting star]

The suspect is almost ending and I would like to give some last-minute thoughts.

Weavile's presence in the tier is a net negative. Previous posts from established pro-ban players have already made great arguments, and I also highly recommend reading the debate that took place a few days ago on Discord between Monky, Reina, and Alyssa (about 24 Oct 4pm gmt-4). What I would like to add is that the rise of HO, in particular Psychic Terrain HO, post-shifts is not a coincidence. Weavile is the fastest unboosted mon in the tier, bar maybe Talonflame and Barraskewda (lol), which means the only offensive counterplay available is: Scarfers, HO, and priority from Lokix, Scizor, etc, which is why Psychic Terrain has been on a sharp rise to counter priority and in turn facilitating a Weavile sweep. Now if you have been spamming HO to outspeed threats, obviously Weavile feels manageable but Weavile's high speed tier in conjunction with its offensive capabilities is the primary reason why HO is so common now.

Defensively, Weavile indeed has plenty of checks in Cobalion, Okidogi, Skarmory, Tinkaton, and Toxapex. Other checks are inconsistent because they dislike having their items Knocked, for example Keldeo, Heatran, and Rotom-Wash that needs Pain Split for recovery. Anti-ban players like to argue that Weavile only Knocks and struggles to do anything else due to its paper bulk, but the thing is Weavile does not need to sweep nor carry the entire battle since battles are not 1v6. Weavile is a very consistent progress maker by virtue of its STAB Knock Off and high Attack, and can afford to play the long game. Weavile also forces less than ideal reactionary plays, for example Cobalion lacks recovery and got chipped, and now has to be careful of Low Kick while being cognizant of the need to stay healthy to check other physical attackers, Skarmory now has to play more passively and Roost or risk getting chipped further by Triple Axel. Lastly unlike other paper-bulk offensive mons, Dark and Ice are excellent offensive typings that no one is immune to, whereas other common Choiced mons such as Latios and Keldeo do not have spammable STABs and such have to predict correctly in order to retain momentum. Weavile's bulk in itself is not even that atrocious, since for a start it is slightly bulkier than Lokix and Greninja, survives a Tera Water LO Surf from Greninja from full, and more notably it is well-supported by Slowking's Chilly Reception augmenting its Defense.

Weavile forces changes in meta trends and interactions that are not desirable in my eyes, and therefore I will be voting ban.
edit: grammar