SV UU Suspect Process Round 9 - Five Nights at Freddy's

Flame orb luna getting 3+ kills is indeed prob a players fault... if im just giving opportunities to my opponent against a big wallbreaker then yes, it would indeed be my fault for letting it come in that many times esp when the pivot is pretty free.
what do you switch into u turn/volt switch to prevent luna from coming in? the problem is even if you switch in a mon like zapdos or torn which outspeed and chunk luna, trading these mons for ursaluna very often favours the ursaluna user, and if ursaluna is at 50% it can very conceivably get another kill. you can't just look at pokemon as any trade is equal for both players because this is not how pokemon works and the teams being used in the current meta very clearly demonstrate this. people are stacking mons that can outspeed and do massive damage to it and it is still coming in on the one or two mons that are either slower than it or that can't afford to be traded into it and picking off kills. calling this a player issue only demonstrates ignorance of the current meta.
 
what do you switch into u turn/volt switch to prevent luna from coming in? the problem is even if you switch in a mon like zapdos or torn which outspeed and chunk luna, trading these mons for ursaluna very often favours the ursaluna user, and if ursaluna is at 50% it can very conceivably get another kill. you can't just look at pokemon as any trade is equal for both players because this is not how pokemon works and the teams being used in the current meta very clearly demonstrate this. people are stacking mons that can outspeed and do massive damage to it and it is still coming in on the one or two mons that are either slower than it or that can't afford to be traded into it and picking off kills. calling this a player issue only demonstrates ignorance of the current meta.
if my team cant afford to let a slow wallbreaker come in then i midground to smth... as i said ive been replay reviewed before where that was the case. The answer? well i shouldve been more aggressive, not let it in, done smth other than pivot to the one mon that gives it free entry. If someone is constantly bringing in slowking on a torn-t u-turn botting then one should prob maybe switch to smth else to counter torn-t (not like slowking is the sole counterplay to torn-t)

Sure sure zapdos vs BU luna is going to be like ~3 turns because BU -> ice punch -> ice punc but hurricane can also accumulate that much chip by doing ~35% - lefties which is still a lot and is gonna leave it very low barring RNG. Even then it depends o the spread of luna as ive seen max hp luna in replays which take ~40% - lefties.

Vs Guts luna yeah.. but even then doing 45% and luna is going to be around 30ish due to rocks + burn so its unlikely a player will let it in. its 50 base speed sure is nice but most teams can just pressure the opponent to just make it be a sack and when its coming in its prob gonna be around 25%. U can often pressure it out and make it just be a sack late game, even then you can tera steel zapdos for ex. and just hurricane its ass twice to just prevent it from doing much, it does minimal dmg to you while u do a lot to it and are able to force it out
 
if my team cant afford to let a slow wallbreaker come in then i midground to smth... as i said ive been replay reviewed before where that was the case. The answer? well i shouldve been more aggressive, not let it in, done smth other than pivot to the one mon that gives it free entry. If someone is constantly bringing in slowking on a torn-t u-turn botting then one should prob maybe switch to smth else to counter torn-t (not like slowking is the sole counterplay to torn-t)

Sure sure zapdos vs BU luna is going to be like ~3 turns because BU -> ice punch -> ice punc but hurricane can also accumulate that much chip by doing ~35% - lefties which is still a lot and is gonna leave it very low barring RNG. Even then it depends o the spread of luna as ive seen max hp luna in replays which take ~40% - lefties.

Vs Guts luna yeah.. but even then doing 45% and luna is going to be around 30ish due to rocks + burn so its unlikely a player will let it in. its 50 base speed sure is nice but most teams can just pressure the opponent to just make it be a sack and when its coming in its prob gonna be around 25%. U can often pressure it out and make it just be a sack late game, even then you can tera steel zapdos for ex. and just hurricane its ass twice to just prevent it from doing much, it does minimal dmg to you while u do a lot to it and are able to force it out

The problem with your logic is you’re treating Luna like some generic breaker when it’s much more potent than any other, speaking of physical ones anyways. Special breakers have Greninja, specs sets anyway which happen to be great partners for Luna in general.

Like I said repeat it all you want but it’s not practical nor a good argument for something being balanced when your so called “counter play” is firing inaccurate moves hoping to land several while it sets up in your face. It’s never been a good argument.

there are games from UUBD where it still got to get kills at low health. Simply dropping it low isn’t making it auto go away. The meta game is being warped by its presence to stack multiple Pokémon on teams to pressure it and it’s STILL putting in work despite this.
 
if my team cant afford to let a slow wallbreaker come in then i midground to smth... as i said ive been replay reviewed before where that was the case. The answer? well i shouldve been more aggressive, not let it in, done smth other than pivot to the one mon that gives it free entry. If someone is constantly bringing in slowking on a torn-t u-turn botting then one should prob maybe switch to smth else to counter torn-t (not like slowking is the sole counterplay to torn-t)

Vs Guts luna yeah.. but even then doing 45% and luna is going to be around 30ish due to rocks + burn so its unlikely a player will let it in. its 50 base speed sure is nice but most teams can just pressure the opponent to just make it be a sack and when its coming in its prob gonna be around 25%. U can often pressure it out and make it just be a sack late game, even then you can tera steel zapdos for ex. and just hurricane its ass twice to just prevent it from doing much, it does minimal dmg to you while u do a lot to it and are able to force it out
did you actually read what i said. trading ursaluna for zapdos is very often a favourable trade for the ursaluna user, favourable enough that people are often forced to switch zapdos out of ursaluna in order to not lose the game to one of ursalunas teammates. you can not consistently midground to mons that never allow ursaluna in because, as hard as this may be for you to understand, you sometimes have to switch a pokemon that checks one of your opponents pokemon into that pokemon. please improve your reading comprehension and understanding of pokemon before you post again
 
did you actually read what i said. trading ursaluna for zapdos is very often a favourable trade for the ursaluna user, favourable enough that people are often forced to switch zapdos out of ursaluna in order to not lose the game to one of ursalunas teammates. you can not consistently midground to mons that never allow ursaluna in because, as hard as this may be for you to understand, you sometimes have to switch a pokemon that checks one of your opponents pokemon into that pokemon. please improve your reading comprehension and understanding of pokemon before you post again
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- zapdos can indeed prob tarde with BU ursaluna since despite what u have been arguing it can.
- Sure zapdos vs guts ursaluna is smth else.. but then u adapt diff counterplay. one still forgets they have tera in the back which they can use if they really want to just tera steel, take 50% from facade while doing 50% + burn in return. Sure zapdos prob checks smth in the back for ex. Coba, Torn-t, lokix, ogerpon but veen then u can use ur teammates..
- If there are no other options and you have to sacrifice health of a mon to force it out ... then that is mons, it happens to teams that may have been caught in a bad position. Sure going ogerpon-c is prob like a last resort but despite that it can still force it out, make some progress, and still be in the game instead of just dropping zapdos
- other pokemon can force trades against pokemon that check others to help open up late game... ogerpon-teal can weaken torn-t to open it up for ur battle bond / specs greninja in the back. This isnt really ursaluna exclusive, you can for ex. switch into ur ogerpon-c, coba, scizor take a lot from facade and force it out just like it has happened to other slow wallbreakers. Ursaluna isnt getting opportunities left and right just cuz.
- it may be hard for someone who thinks of themselves solely as right and that there are no other opinions to understand that but maybe if one acknowledges that this is a suspect test where many times player disagree with each other and dont stoop low enough to shit on others potentially who havent had that much tour placements. Surely you didnt come in here thinking there is only one opinion on a suspect test and everyone else is stupid for thinking smth else other than ban? Maybe you should improve your understanding of a debate

The problem with your logic is you’re treating Luna like some generic breaker when it’s much more potent than any other, speaking of physical ones anyways. Special breakers have Greninja, specs sets anyway which happen to be great partners for Luna in general.

Like I said repeat it all you want but it’s not practical nor a good argument for something being balanced when your so called “counter play” is firing inaccurate moves hoping to land several while it sets up in your face. It’s never been a good argument.

there are games from UUBD where it still got to get kills at low health. Simply dropping it low isn’t making it auto go away. The meta game is being warped by its presence to stack multiple Pokémon on teams to pressure it and it’s STILL putting in work despite this.
- Sure its more potent in the fact guts facade is strong but its not 1hko'ing the entire tier since even smth like hydrapple can duel ursaluna with giga drain / accumulate helmet dmg, coba can tank a hit and close combat it out
- Yet those moves are assumed to always hit in a game setting... you arent gonna assume focus blast torn-t is gonna miss against ttar when its at 50% health.. you are gonna say "focus blast is on torn-t to help me nail ttar to open it up for CM latios"
- yes, im aware that is possible and that can happen but still it is often times very pressured and even throwing it on attempted recovery, saving it for pivots, even then you can still pressure it immensely a lot hp ursaluna has to be way more careful of any potential chip, esp a flame orb one who may just die to a sneeze due to the accumulating chip from rocks + burn
 
Since when does an ogerpon hard switch into a setup sweeper... even in the past that isnt how it works, u dont just bring in ogerpon on smth like CM keldeo right away when u can eat a secret sword

i mean u can... tink is not only faster but can annoy it with knock + encore while ogerpon threatens a super effective hit which scares it out as even ice punch at +0 doesnt kill it and if it uses bulk up and it pivots in then its forced out which if luna has to keep guessing "dam, i dont want to keep wasting turns trying to bulk up just to be forced out"

If luna isnt using tera because there is an ogerpon or tink in the back then its much easier to deal with....

I am not sure, but do you mean that tink and oger use two of them at the same time instead of one of them as an encore user? If you make a wrong prediction, you are done, and those are two of the less favored ones in the current UU.


I think I already mentioned that orb luna can always kill one pokemon if you switch it on and make the proper prediction, but apparently you didn't read it. cb ttar can finally get one kill using the full four moves, but its performance is clearly different from luna, which is sufficient with either stab . I said that I know this and think it has been allowed so far so it doesn't need to be banned, but if you are turning a blind eye to it because it is a sign of banning, then honestly vote for the ban.
 
yeah hi for reference i was referring to switching in on a healthy zap and bulking up, not zap switching into luna. ill maybe post my thoughts on this later but id rather not have context twisted as the replay being referred to here had a luna switch in on zap and bu to force it out. Which while normally not wise, was fine considering there was a sinistcha in the back specifically because luna is brokey, so luna wasnt making too much progress anyways.
 
for the sanity of literally everyone reading this thread could the posters who have responded to each other several times (you know who you are) take a break from posting in this thread responding to each other's arguments. It's overwhelmingly clear that you are not going to change the minds of the other group and so to save everyone time and keep this thread from being clogged I'm going to ask y'all to drop it or move to discord or PMs or wherever the fuck you want that's not here. Let's hopefully get some new perspectives from both sides in this thread with this main back and forth coming to a close.
 
yeah hi for reference i was referring to switching in on a healthy zap and bulking up, not zap switching into luna. ill maybe post my thoughts on this later but id rather not have context twisted as the replay being referred to here had a luna switch in on zap and bu to force it out. Which while normally not wise, was fine considering there was a sinistcha in the back specifically because luna is brokey, so luna wasnt making too much progress anyways.
- i was always referring to it just being a 1v1 in general not zap switching into luna or smth (cuz it didnt, luna switched in on zap) .
- i didnt post the replay before that which was me just talking about BU ursaluna vs def zapdos in a 1v1
- sure there was counterplay in the replay with sinistcha but i didnt post it yet, so i feel there is smth at that time i didnt show
I am not sure, but do you mean that tink and oger use two of them at the same time instead of one of them as an encore user? If you make a wrong prediction, you are done, and those are two of the less favored ones in the current UU.

I think I already mentioned that orb luna can always kill one pokemon if you switch it on and make the proper prediction, but apparently you didn't read it. cb ttar can finally get one kill using the full four moves, but its performance is clearly different from luna, which is sufficient with either stab . I said that I know this and think it has been allowed so far so it doesn't need to be banned, but if you are turning a blind eye to it because it is a sign of banning, then honestly vote for the ban.
- just because they are less favored doesnt mean people cant use them, u can always counterplay smth by just being on the side of likelyhood... what are the odds vs an opposing exca
- sure... orb ursaluna may always get one kill but even then one can always tera out of a situation to put themselves into a better spot than before. ofc the punishment for letting ursaluna in is high so ofc its prob gonna tear smth out of ur team but even then its not dropping every mon in a single hit so u can use that to ones advantage
- i think luna isnt ban worthy that i described when i initially wrote my first post here, even then ive felt during UULT and other times ive faced players who the discord would describe as good and it hasnt done that much or stood out as smth banworthy just smth worthy of its A- tier
 
If :Ursaluna: is banned, be prepared for an unspeakable hell where :Tornadus-Therian::Toxapex::Hydrapple::Slowking: will be switching infinitely as attempts to make progress are completely blanked, with :Lokix: rendering any setup mon unviable. :Ursaluna:'s ability to punish the otherwise safe regen cores, :Skeledirge: and even :Zapdos: at times is a good thing, giving offensive teams such as screens a fighting chance in the metagame by allowing them to break through the broken regenerator cores with a good, reliable breaker, instead of being permanently stalled out & revenge killed by :Lokix: immediately afterwards. Furthermore, it offers diversity to the tier by encouraging the use of underrated mons such as :Sinistcha:, which is a fantastic Pokemon in its own right that can answer other top tiers such as :Excadrill: and :Azumarill:. Often times, on the ladder, I have noticed that :Ursaluna: is put into very unfortunate 50/50s against many common cores, such as :Tornadus-Therian: + :Pecharunt:, :Latios: + :Cobalion:, etc. where it is very difficult to safely click a move without suffering some major consequence (:Tornadus-Therian: switching in for free is one of the worse possible trades, free Dracos for :Latios: is also quite bad, Parting Shot from :Pecharunt: drastically lowers Ursaluna's threat level, etc.). The offensive power level of the tier is also quite high, with many popular pokemon such as :Ogerpon-Cornerstone::Greninja::Keldeo::Serperior: and :Azumarill: making it hard for Ursaluna to even set up safely in the first place & requiring the use of a Tera, which other Pokemon on the opponent's team such as :Excadrill: :Okidogi: and :Greninja: will take advantage of.

The UU pivots are good, but they are no :Alomomola: in terms of support, which can pass massive wishes and allow :Ursaluna: to engage in multiple assualts against the bulky OU cores. Without :alomomola:, :Ursaluna: is much more prone to chip damage and wearing itself down. The bulky Bulk Up set does mitigate this issue, but this set is relying on low BP moves and getting multiple setup, which can be difficult to do against :Zapdos: :Tornadus-Therian: and even :Slowking: due to all these Pokemon packing ways to deal decent damage to it, while Ursaluna is unable to OHKO them in return without at least a couple of boost and even if it does, it will usually be KO'd by the opponent's :Greninja: or :Latios: in a following altercation. :Hydrapple: can also Terstalize to avoid Ice Punch and deal massive damage to :Ursaluna: with Leaf Storm, putting it in an awkward position. Because Ursaluna's coverage moves are so weak, many Pokemon can do something similar to revenge kill it, such as :Latios:, :Sandy Shocks: and more. Encore from :Tinkaton: or :Ogerpon: can also make going for bulk up's risky. While :Ursaluna: is still effective vs these bulky cores, it's Bulk Up set is not as risk-free as one may think due to the constraints between its middling initial power, the option to Tera, and Encore. :Ursaluna:'s presence merely forces these bulkier teams to be more proactive in their approach to handling it, rather than Chilly, U-Turn spam they are use to. Bulky cores also have a strong and reliable answer in :Sinistcha: if they want to punish :Ursaluna: as well, while also having a decent spinblocker and check to :Excadrill:. :Ursaluna: merely provides offensive teams a powerful queen piece against these defensive cores, giving them a workable MU instead of a completely unwinnable one.
 
If :Ursaluna: is banned, be prepared for an unspeakable hell where :Tornadus-Therian::Toxapex::Hydrapple::Slowking: will be switching infinitely as attempts to make progress are completely blanked, with :Lokix: rendering any setup mon unviable. :Ursaluna:'s ability to punish the otherwise safe regen cores, :Skeledirge: and even :Zapdos: at times is a good thing, giving offensive teams such as screens a fighting chance in the metagame by allowing them to break through the broken regenerator cores with a good, reliable breaker, instead of being permanently stalled out & revenge killed by :Lokix: immediately afterwards.

If Regenerator cores are an issue after Ursaluna is banned, then UU can just ban Hydrapple, which is the only Regenerator mon that is even remotely an issue. There are a lot of strong wallbreakers that just straight up aren't used 'cause there's no point in using them when Ursaluna just straight up outclasses them since it is way stronger and bulkier than every other wallbreaker while also having useful immunities and an immunity to status.

Ursaluna has so much upside that it puts in work even against teams that prep for it heavily, and it exerts too much pressure in the builder to be healthy for the meta with how nuclear its offensive potential is IMO. If there needs to be more bans after kicking Ursaluna to the curb, then UU can deal with the aftermath after that given an Ursaluna ban would probably have the largest effect on the meta.
 
Often times, on the ladder, I have noticed that :Ursaluna: is put into very unfortunate 50/50s against many common cores, such as :Tornadus-Therian: + :Pecharunt:, :Latios: + :Cobalion:, etc. where it is very difficult to safely click a move without suffering some major consequence (:Tornadus-Therian: switching in for free is one of the worse possible trades, free Dracos for :Latios: is also quite bad, Parting Shot from :Pecharunt: drastically lowers Ursaluna's threat level, etc.).
ignoring the fact that pecharunt was used like 5 times total in UUPL, cobalion takes 49% minimum from burned facade which is huge damage (without hazards btw), allowing other physical sweepers to do their job better is always crazy. this isn't taking into account bulk up stage boosts or drain punch healing or defense drops from close combat this is just switching in. My point here is that rarely is there thought neccesary for predictions/5050s and a lot of the time you can just click facade because you do so much damage.
 
no clue what im gonna vote yet, probably ban just for the sake of shaking the tier up as i dont think ursa actually offers anything positive, just an annoying mon that encourages a lot of mu shenanigans, i dont think it's outright broken or anything of the sort though

anyways as tradition when i get reqs, here is a team for anyone struggling or simply not having fun playing sv uu while going for reqs, as I believe this team to be functional for reqs but also very fun

special s/o to KM and Punny, as per usual I have no imagination of my own so almost this whole team is techs they created/popularized, I just put six pokemon together and decided to use said sets/techs

:serperior: :ursaluna: :mew: :polteageist: :lokix: :Revavroom:[click]

Basically it was my goal to make a screens Serperior team, as it punishes Defog better than other screeners and can also act as it's own sweeper/support to benefit the archetype and other pokemon on the team. I went with the Red Card Mew as my hazard setter, something I really enjoy is that this team can simply function as a standard spikes offense w/ a great spinblocker in fat tea and plenty of power/wincons, or it can function as a screens team depending on each individual mu. Polt is broken, dont rly need to say much else abt that, it'll basically single handedly carry u thru the low ladder. Lokix is basically ur gren counterplay completely, if you wanted to you could perhaps change it to bd Azu, but I decided not to despite being Azu's biggest fan, anyways FI is a good move and tera bug leech is very stronk. The car is incredible, low or high or mid ladder ppl dont know what to do to this mon when it's on their screen, and even just at +1 it's output is incredible, just wins games and is kinda your thing that abuses serp (non terad) and Lokix. Punny is a genius as per usual
 
Got Reqs with the team viv posted above, its fun i recommend it.

Anyways im definitely voting ban for pretty much all the reasons Monky stated here.

har har har har har huar huar huar har har. har har har har, har har har har.
- Fredy Fastbear (2014)

I haven’t made a forum post calling for something to be banned in a good few months so you can already tell that I really have a strong desire to Ban Ursaluna. WCOP, UULT, UU Open, and now UUBD. There have been endless showings of Ursaluna’s dominance and restrictiveness on the builder. I myself was a bit hesitant towards banning Ursaluna at first, but after really getting into building for UUBD as well as continuing to examine games across the last month and a half it’s undeniable that Ursaluna is far too restrictive and effective at what it does to be allowed in the UU tier any longer.

The main issue with handling Ursaluna I feel a lot of players fail to recognize is its bulk. 130/105/80 is absolutely phenomenal for a Pokémon like Ursaluna and coupled with a natural 140 base attack, it is very hard to punish as a whole even if using Bulk Up variants without setting up. Flame Orb just mindlessly kills shit and even decent usage in-game means you get 2 kills easily whereas Bulk Up easily can prime itself towards a sweep when in against many Pokemon throughout the tier. The issue isn’t that Ursaluna is inherently restrictive onto bulkier archetypes between Flame Orb and Bulk Up, rather its matchup against even BO and certain offensive builds is what pushes it over the edge for me thanks to the trade potential achieved from the aforementioned high bulk. Common glue picks like Tornadus-T, Excadrill, Lokix, Zapdos, and Tinkaton all fail to take it out from high HP and require Ursaluna to be pretty chipped to take it out; note that Tinkaton and Excadrill attacks just get healed off by Drain Punch as well, resulting in Ursaluna getting many, many chances to click against even faster threats. Ursaluna’s raw bulk and setup capabilities ultimately creates an effect in the builder where you pretty much have to hone in on stacking your team with numerous offensive Pokémon (Greninja, Cobalion, Serperior, Latios) who can outspeed AND threaten Ursaluna super effectively and it still will get value against you just by nature of taking advantage of utility picks and support Pokémon. Ursaluna actively de-incentivizes players to even bother with slower Pokemon like Hydrapple, Slowking, Toxapex, Rhyperior, Enamorus-T, Skeledirge, Pecharunt, Tyranitar, bulky Scizor, and bulky Metagross to name a few as well as heavily damages archetypes like sand and balance that require usage of these Pokemon. No other Pokémon in the tier does this while maintaining a solid offense matchup.

Furthermore, it’s very easy to support Ursaluna with the amount of pivots we have, essentially putting extreme burdens on defensive cores to try their best to not let Ursaluna in. Have to go Toxapex on Lokix? Luna in. Have to go Rhyperior on Torn? Luna in. Have to go Hydrapple on Sandy Shocks? Luna in. Have to go Slowking on Cobalion? Ursaluna is fucking in. UUBD is basically Greninja (who abuses the heavy offensive metagame) + Luna + pivots simulator which is absolutely a metagame that is not desirable to have where one archetype vastly stands above the others. We’re basically playing “God I hope Ursaluna doesn’t get in on half my team who is slower and/or can’t kill it instantly because epic bulk and typing moment.” Comparing Ursaluna to other breakers, it’s not Flame Orb alone that is overpowered, but rather Ursaluna’s stat spread and access to BU sets it apart from others like Azumarill, Hisuian Arcanine, and Mamoswine. Even Okidogi, who is the closest comparison to Ursaluna in the tier, still falls short due to a worse defensive typing to an extent, as Tornadus, Excadrill, and Zapdos (all very common Pokemon) hit you super effectively compared to Ursaluna, and is vulnerable to some status pre Tera and all post Tera, which ties into the other big issue with Ursaluna being inability to be statused in tandem with Terastallization. Scald from Slowking, Thunder Wave from Tinkaton and Slowking, Toxic from Mandibuzz and Toxapex, and Wisp from Skeledirge and Rotom-Wash all further amplify Ursaluna’s breaking especially with the very hard to kill Bulk Up variants, meaning that even though it’s on a timer, it will still tear through defensive cores with ease.

Moreover, Tera unpredictability is also a very big issue with Ursaluna having a variety of Tera types that can flip the matchups on pretty much any revenge killer it wants. Tera Fairy shits on Cobalion, Mandibuzz, and Latios Draco, whereas Tera Dragon blocks Grass- and Water-type moves from foes like Grasspon, Zarude, Greninja, and Rotom-Wash. Others like Tera Ghost for the Fighting-type immunity in addition to resisting Steel- and Poison-type attacks from Okidogi and Scizor and Poison for the combined Fighting- and Grass-type resists are also potent options, resulting in insane flexibility for Ursaluna as a whole that is basically unknown on preview and can flip any revenge killing attempts from occurring. Not many Pokemon in particular have this many effective tera types to utilize, probably none at all off the top of my head in terms of how flexible and useful each is. Going back to the Okidogi comparison, it only really runs Tera Fairy for Bulk Up sets due to needing that key middleground between Tornadus-T and Excadrill, but Ursaluna’s aforementioned great matchup against the most common utility options in the tier grants it this flexibility. Ursaluna’s raw bulk already makes it very hard to take down, but the ability to flip any revenge killing attempts barring like a Specs Latios Luster Purge with the simple click of the Tera button lets Luna easily take down 2-3 Pokemon in the game even if outright not sweeping. By then the damage is already done and Luna has done its job of breaking walls to enable other teammates to win. Apart from Sinistcha, there really is no reliable outs to Ursaluna with the Facade “switch-ins” like Metagross and Cobalion taking 50% and having to handle other Pokemon as well, and coupled with pivot support all Ursaluna needs to do is get in a few times vs slower Pokémon to break holes. With Ursaluna gone, we see greater breathing room in the builder, as more options will be opened up solely because they aren’t slower than Ursaluna nor fail to KO it and thus enable other breakers who are actually beating to keep a balance between playstyles going thanks to having the defensive support they need to function. Balance and sand will add to a greater diversity of play styles as a whole with BO also becoming more consistent. I cannot tell you how many sick ideas using diverse Pokemon we came up with in UUBD only for them to just fall flat to this broken Pokemon with the little answers it has.

To conclude, what makes Ursaluna banworthy is:
  • Insane bulk for an offensive Pokémon + an immunity to status + a useful natural typing against the most common utility picks, making it very difficult to take out without dedicated breakers, punishing threats who even though they are faster fail to KO it via a KO in return or using them as setup bait
  • Nuclear wallbreaking with Flame Orb or an insanely difficult to kill sweeper using Bulk Up that hits hard naturally, cannot be stopped via status, and can outtrade and snowball against the metagame at large, ultimately posing the issue of set versatility when handling Ursaluna in that you can’t just outtrade Flame Orb variants but also have to make sure your Pokemon don’t end up as setup bait for Ursaluna
  • Potent Tera flexibility between Fairy, Ghost, Dragon, and Poison to name a few, all of which can easily be the other on preview, thus making Ursaluna even more difficult to take down with a revenge killer being taken out instead or outright becoming fodder for Bulk Up variants
  • The effects it has on the metagame shifting it to a very skewed usage of offensive teams with little room for bulkier playstyles to be run and the heavy restrictions it poses on others like sand and BO unlike anything else in the tier
Ban Ursaluna

In general Ursaluna makes it far too difficult to build anything that isnt offensive. Teams tend to have like 3-4 things that are both fast and hit it super effectively just because its the only way to fend it off. Which isnt the craziest thing, but then you notice that more slow paced stuff like toxapex, or just slower stuff in general like Hydrapple and slowking can barely exist in the current meta. Additionally, these already unhealthy meta shifts arent even always enough, because as stated in Monky's post Ursaluna is ridiculously fat and can use tera if it really wants to, meaning it will usually manage to get a single kill AT WORST and can even manage to get 2-3 with either Flame Orb or Bulk Up.

Flame orb is way too effective at giving the user an early lead that teammates can pick up on, mainly because it just mashes facade and nothing switches into it bar air balloon Pecharunt, which is fine but needing air balloon makes it overall worse as a mon imo, and Sinistcha, who just isnt very good into things that arent Ursaluna and can even lose to jolly Luna if it gets ice punched on the switch. As for Bulk Up, while it isnt effortlessly smashing teams apart, its still stupid fat and hard to bring down, especially since even if something like quaquavel comes in to revenge it, it can just tera ghost or fairy or even a type that is neutral to fighting, soak up the cc, and just get another kill.

Another topic i want to bring up is that Sinistcha has become a lot more common than it really should in my opinion considering that as previously mentioned, it isnt very good. But this usage demonstrates just how dire the situation is for fatter styles, that they have to resort to this mon because
its the only way to not get steamrolled.

TLDR: Ursaluna warps the meta into ways that try to specifically prevent it from killing things, which is already bad, but then it continues to kill things regardless, which is just stupid. Its time to close down Freddy Fazbear's Pizza.
 
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As for Bulk Up, while it isnt effortlessly smashing teams apart, its still stupid fat and hard to bring down, especially since even if something like quaquavel comes in to revenge it, it can just tera ghost or fairy or even a type that is neutral to fighting, soak up the cc, and just get another kill.
Does this not apply to any mon? if i were to apply this to any mon i want to revenge with.. lets take latios vs okidogi, mamoswine vs NP hydrapple, Lokix vs Ogerpon-C. Tera can be applied to almost any situation to turn what would be a dangerous situation for me and turn it into momentum against the opponent. Okidogi can use tera fairy to turn the otherwise dangerous luster purge into smth that barely does half, hydrapple can turn the otherwise 4x super effective icicle crash into smth that bounces off and recovers off with giga drain, lokix first impression all of a sudden barely does much and you lose one of the best revenge killers in the tier... etc etc.

I feel this argument is overused and is just not a good argument why smth is broken since tera is smth universal and not smth one particular pokemon has access to.

Another topic i want to bring up is that Sinistcha has become a lot more common than it really should in my opinion considering that as previously mentioned, it isnt very good.
I mean isnt this trends? smth like okidogi which wasnt the best thing pre kommo o ban all of a sudden start popping up, smth like zarude is being seen a lot more, Thundy-t rises as i heard to a response to zapdos and just generally taking advantage of bulkier teams, hydrapple losing traction due to stuff being run that can beat it and in general a meta that isnt exactly 100% friendly towards it compared to before.

I mean sinistcha may jsut be more common to.. it isnt some otherwise shitmon that is unviable (weezing-g) or smth that was very specifically ran just for it. It does ok into rhyperior, can take advantage of encore dropping off, exca being slide, coba's set having no way to touch it, etc etc, yeah it isnt some mon who has 15% usage as a result but things happen and it isnt smth like justifying golurk over luna just cuz it counters kommo-o
 
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Does this not apply to any mon? if i were to apply this to any mon i want to revenge with.. lets take latios vs okidogi, mamoswine vs NP hydrapple, Lokix vs Ogerpon-C. Tera can be applied to almost any situation to turn what would be a dangerous situation for me and turn it into momentum against the opponent. Okidogi can use tera fairy to turn the otherwise dangerous luster purge into smth that barely does half, hydrapple can turn the otherwise 4x super effective icicle crash into smth that bounces off and recovers off with giga drain, lokix first impression all of a sudden barely does much and you lose one of the best revenge killers in the tier... etc etc.

I feel this argument is overused and is just not a good argument why smth is broken since tera is smth universal and not smth one particular pokemon has access to.


I mean isnt this trends? smth like okidogi which wasnt the best thing pre kommo o ban all of a sudden start popping up, smth like zarude is being seen a lot more, Thundy-t rises as i heard to a response to zapdos and just generally taking advantage of bulkier teams, hydrapple losing traction due to stuff being run that can beat it and in general a meta that isnt exactly 100% friendly towards it compared to before.

I mean sinistcha may jsut be more common to.. it isnt some otherwise shitmon that is unviable (weezing-g) or smth that was very specifically ran just for it. It does ok into rhyperior, can take advantage of encore dropping off, exca being slide, coba's set having no way to touch it, etc etc, yeah it isnt some mon who has 15% usage as a result but things happen and it isnt smth like justifying golurk over luna just cuz it counters kommo-o


Taps the sign
for the sanity of literally everyone reading this thread could the posters who have responded to each other several times (you know who you are) take a break from posting in this thread responding to each other's arguments. It's overwhelmingly clear that you are not going to change the minds of the other group and so to save everyone time and keep this thread from being clogged I'm going to ask y'all to drop it or move to discord or PMs or wherever the fuck you want that's not here. Let's hopefully get some new perspectives from both sides in this thread with this main back and forth coming to a close.

You don’t need to respond to literally every post, it’s clear you aren’t changing opinions and it would be nice to have other opinions be expressed.
 
Taps the sign
Sign says "responding to each other for several posts", nor am i responding with the intention to really change ur mind since 99% of people here wont either, nor has it ever been like this on 95% of suspect tests. (also says the person making a one liner post)

I am saying how the argument of using tera (smth that every mon has) idt is a good argument, many other mons can tera to turn a MU which otherwise they lose into an easily winnable MU and can turn the momentum in their favor from getting that one kill.

Sure ursaluna can tera and beat latios, okidogi, cobalion, ogerpon-c, serperior, keldeo, greninja, etc but the opponent can also tera to just hit it harder, tank its hits better like tera ghost on some mons that is ran for other things like spin exca (exca itself usually runs this), smth like tera steel thundy-t allows it to tank a facade and potentially just NP In ur face or just FB to threaten a lot of progress

While other setup sweepers like hydrapple, okidogi, zarude, serperior, CM latios, BU luna itself also just shift its counterplay by using tera at an appropriate time and can run off with games cuz they decided that this is a good moment to swing momentum.
 
Ursaluna is broken. Anyone who has been playing this tier in the tournament scene will know how frustrating it is to not only account for its insane builder presence, but also playing against it can feel like a legitimate coinflip a lot of the time due to a few factors: set variety, speed tier shenanigans, tera customizability, stacking Pokemon that benefit greatly from how efficiently Ursaluna can find and execute trades… honestly could go on and on about it. You never truly know which one you’re going to end up facing because realistically all of the offense teams that have Flame Orb Ursaluna can also use the Bulk Up set decently well which is a terrifying prospect since both of these sets function differently as Pokemon entirely and have different methods of overwhelming them. Flame Orb is the easier of the two to sequence versus in my experience, with the best way of limiting its opportunities to come in and collect more than one kill (it should be getting one kill in every game its in at least) being through pressuring its teammates like Cobalion and Tornadus from clicking their pivot moves (because Flame Orb shouldn’t ever be switching into attacks) OR getting a strong Special ‘mon like Greninja/Serperior/Focus Blasts or Grass Knots from Tornadus-Therian and Thundurus-Therian. These aren’t guaranteed to work, as we’ve seen throughout UULT, the later stages of UU Open and Week 1 of UUBD, people have just gotten better at building teams that actually abuse Flame Orb’s nigh uncheckable nature and ability to demand a positive trade for itself and its teammates and this is without factoring in Bulk Up. Bulk Up is the more problematic set in my opinion. Bulk Up Ursaluna uses its gargantuan stat spread to just gap most of the entire tier while denying common ways of neutralizing set up ‘mons — status. There isn’t a whole lot of things you can hope to do against it besides knocking and outplaying with Greninja or whatever; it’s easily one of the most oppressive sets in the entire tier. The biggest issue with Ursaluna is not how it functions on its own, but what it does to the tier. Every team wants to have ways of limiting it which leaves you open to the other tier demons like Tornadus/Lokix/Okidogi/Thundurus/Greninja/Excadrill or whatever else. There is too much to prepare for and this isn’t something that’s entirely new for the tier or the gen as a whole but removing the most skewed coinflip Pokemon of all time would do wonders to the tiers health going forward.
 
Imo luna is not broken
However, it does create unhealthy gamestates where if you switch to a defensive mon, luna can easily double on you and get a kill. Banning luna won't really reduce anything from the tier as rhyperior performs all it's defensive roles, except against dirge better (This is why idt luna is broken btw)
 
Imo luna is not broken
However, it does create unhealthy gamestates where if you switch to a defensive mon, luna can easily double on you and get a kill. Banning luna won't really reduce anything from the tier as rhyperior performs all it's defensive roles, except against dirge better (This is why idt luna is broken btw)
? people clearly arent clamoring for a luna ban because of its defensive roles lmao
if anything rhyp being as good/better defensively is a better reason to ban luna because it ensures that its defensive utility wont leave the tier as a fat strong voltblocker
the catch-22s it forces by either forcing an offensive sac with the ability to come back in later or ruining your defensive integrity are unhealthy and the bu sets just winning on the spot sometimes is bs too, even if theres significant counterplay to it
 
If :Ursaluna: is banned, be prepared for an unspeakable hell where :Tornadus-Therian::Toxapex::Hydrapple::Slowking: will be switching infinitely as attempts to make progress are completely blanked, with :Lokix: rendering any setup mon unviable. :Ursaluna:'s ability to punish the otherwise safe regen cores, :Skeledirge: and even :Zapdos: at times is a good thing, giving offensive teams such as screens a fighting chance in the metagame by allowing them to break through the broken regenerator cores with a good, reliable breaker, instead of being permanently stalled out & revenge killed by :Lokix: immediately afterwards. Furthermore, it offers diversity to the tier by encouraging the use of underrated mons such as :Sinistcha:, which is a fantastic Pokemon in its own right that can answer other top tiers such as :Excadrill: and :Azumarill:. Often times, on the ladder, I have noticed that :Ursaluna: is put into very unfortunate 50/50s against many common cores, such as :Tornadus-Therian: + :Pecharunt:, :Latios: + :Cobalion:, etc. where it is very difficult to safely click a move without suffering some major consequence (:Tornadus-Therian: switching in for free is one of the worse possible trades, free Dracos for :Latios: is also quite bad, Parting Shot from :Pecharunt: drastically lowers Ursaluna's threat level, etc.). The offensive power level of the tier is also quite high, with many popular pokemon such as :Ogerpon-Cornerstone::Greninja::Keldeo::Serperior: and :Azumarill: making it hard for Ursaluna to even set up safely in the first place & requiring the use of a Tera, which other Pokemon on the opponent's team such as :Excadrill: :Okidogi: and :Greninja: will take advantage of.

The UU pivots are good, but they are no :Alomomola: in terms of support, which can pass massive wishes and allow :Ursaluna: to engage in multiple assualts against the bulky OU cores. Without :alomomola:, :Ursaluna: is much more prone to chip damage and wearing itself down. The bulky Bulk Up set does mitigate this issue, but this set is relying on low BP moves and getting multiple setup, which can be difficult to do against :Zapdos: :Tornadus-Therian: and even :Slowking: due to all these Pokemon packing ways to deal decent damage to it, while Ursaluna is unable to OHKO them in return without at least a couple of boost and even if it does, it will usually be KO'd by the opponent's :Greninja: or :Latios: in a following altercation. :Hydrapple: can also Terstalize to avoid Ice Punch and deal massive damage to :Ursaluna: with Leaf Storm, putting it in an awkward position. Because Ursaluna's coverage moves are so weak, many Pokemon can do something similar to revenge kill it, such as :Latios:, :Sandy Shocks: and more. Encore from :Tinkaton: or :Ogerpon: can also make going for bulk up's risky. While :Ursaluna: is still effective vs these bulky cores, it's Bulk Up set is not as risk-free as one may think due to the constraints between its middling initial power, the option to Tera, and Encore. :Ursaluna:'s presence merely forces these bulkier teams to be more proactive in their approach to handling it, rather than Chilly, U-Turn spam they are use to. Bulky cores also have a strong and reliable answer in :Sinistcha: if they want to punish :Ursaluna: as well, while also having a decent spinblocker and check to :Excadrill:. :Ursaluna: merely provides offensive teams a powerful queen piece against these defensive cores, giving them a workable MU instead of a completely unwinnable one.

I know this post was probably made as a joke considering what was said in UUcord prior to the posting of this, as well as the fact that debating in the thread isnt the greatest idea considering how back and forth it can get but it didnt really sit right with me to just kinda let it sit there so ill just wanna address that the metagame after luna has 0 relevance to the suspect test and shouldnt be considered for an argument.

Additionally theres some stuff in here that i just wanted to talk about that just isnt right.

If :Ursaluna: is banned, be prepared for an unspeakable hell where :Tornadus-Therian::Toxapex::Hydrapple::Slowking: will be switching infinitely as attempts to make progress are completely blanked,
Regenspam stuff wasnt even that great before luna took over as running a bunch of these guys left you really slow paced and easy to punish, in fact the newly popular okidogi kicks the crap out of this stuff so even post luna its not gonna be an issue.

with :Lokix: rendering any setup mon unviable
This just isnt correct as HO is still a perfectly fine playstyle despite using setup mons.

it offers diversity to the tier by encouraging the use of underrated mons such as :Sinistcha:, which is a fantastic Pokemon in its own right that can answer other top tiers such as :Excadrill: and :Azumarill:.
Sinistcha isnt that good into SD drill, who yes isnt as common these days but is still something to consider, and azu is not a top mon, sinis is pretty much just used for luna as while spinblocking is cool we dont exactly have much in terms of spikers that sinistcha goes well with, if only skarm dropped.

Often times, on the ladder, I have noticed that :Ursaluna: is put into very unfortunate 50/50s against many common cores, such as :Tornadus-Therian: + :Pecharunt:, :Latios: + :Cobalion:
This 50/50 has luna at the advantage as the person facing it has to just dance around and hope the burn takes it out unless thats balloon pecha, as for the record:
-1 252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 306-360 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 316-373 (104.9 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 319-376 (90.8 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
The parting shot isnt super helpfull unless you get another 50/50 right.

The offensive power level of the tier is also quite high, with many popular pokemon such as :Ogerpon-Cornerstone::Greninja::Keldeo::Serperior: and :Azumarill: making it hard for Ursaluna to even set up safely in the first place & requiring the use of a Tera, which other Pokemon on the opponent's team such as :Excadrill: :Okidogi: and :Greninja: will take advantage of.
All of these lose to Ursaluna if it has the correct tera and a few of them are just drain punch health packs.

The bulky Bulk Up set does mitigate this issue, but this set is relying on low BP moves and getting multiple setup, which can be difficult to do against :Zapdos: :Tornadus-Therian: and even :Slowking:
Tour games say otherwise here, Slowking switching into a luna as it uses bulk up just doesnt work out because luna just eqs it the next turn as Luna is faster and scald doesnt 2 shot it. While zapdos needs to land multiple hurricanes that dont even do a third of luna's health after leftovers, doesnt take ice punch well, and cant safely roost as it gets obliterated by EQ.

Encore from :Tinkaton: or :Ogerpon: can also make going for bulk up's risky.
These do not come in at all reliably.

Bulky cores also have a strong and reliable answer in :Sinistcha: if they want to punish :Ursaluna: as well
This is pretty much the ONLY answer bulky cores have, which isnt particularly healthy at all.

Different one but still felt like it needed to be brought up
Imo luna is not broken
However, it does create unhealthy gamestates where if you switch to a defensive mon, luna can easily double on you and get a kill. Banning luna won't really reduce anything from the tier as rhyperior performs all it's defensive roles, except against dirge better (This is why idt luna is broken btw)
Rhyperior cant pull any of the same stuff luna does and has type thats much easier to exploit, also it doesnt have guts or learn bulk up and drain punch so it cant punish status or become an unkillable behemoth.

Again im sorry if this starts anything somehow considering earlier in the thread but it just felt wrong to leave these unaddressed as the idea of using some boogyman (the regencores in this case) as a point always feels like it needs to be addressed as some less familiar people with the meta may vote based on something that isnt relevant or even true.
 
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Hi. I don't really get involved much in SV UU, so take this with a grain of salt. I don't plan on going for reqs, either, so this is just my opinion.

Ursaluna is genuinely one of the most obnoxious things I have run into on any ladder I've played. It might not be something that should be quickbanned like Blaziken, but a quick look across the tier doesn't really provide a plethora of switchins. Oh, sure, you can offensively pressure it, but it's so bulky that it might actually shrug off a super effective hit. 130/105/80 is no joke on an offensive Pokemon. Burning it makes the problem worse, so there's that answer out of the way. And the problem I most run into is that if it ever gets a free turn, it can just as easily put a Bulk Up on as it can just smash something with a Guts boost.

Everything else feels fairly balanced now, but Ursaluna is so far ahead of the pack it's obscene. I'd prefer to see it gone.
 
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