Implemented Swagger In ADV OU

[SEA]

The ADV OU council has decided to put Swagger on the chopping block, as we view it as a largely uncompetitive move. Confusion having a 50% chance to inflict self-damage speaks for itself; the move creates coinflips. It's been banned across several other generations for similar reasons.

The best users of Swagger are often Pokemon that can inflict paralysis, such as Pokemon like Registeel. It has also seen use on Sub Endeavor Swampert, and can be used on basically whatever you want in conjunction with Thunder Wave users.

Replays showing its usage: [Gen 3] OU: TreinerOrenge vs. dice - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com)
[Gen 3] OU: McMeghan vs. Fakes - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com)

The council is expecting a Swagger ban to be largely uncontroversial and plans to vote on it in a week unless serious concerns are raised.

Please keep all conversations in this thread related to Swagger.

 

[baddummy]

Thank you for this, I strongly support quickbanning this move. Swagger isn't overpowered in the traditional sense, because it can completely backfire on the user, but it is uncompetitive in that it turns games into dumb coin flips.
As everyone knows, ADV is one of the tiers with perma sand, which makes chip damage stick quite easily from self hits.
I genuinely believe that we've really only seen the tip of the iceberg with what swagger can do in this tier.
Pokemon like:
Sub + Swagger Aerodactyl - fast sand immune mon that also has a flinch chance
Sub + Swagger Jirachi - decent speed sand immune mon that can set up 101 subs and fish for paras on top of that
These have been options that I've been aware of for a while, which could completely take the skill out of the game, but I have not been very eager to use because of obvious reasons. I don't want to see other people experiment with swagger either, please ban it before that happens.

 

[berry]

Banning Swagger is an objectively right step in the right direction for ADV, and I can't really think of any counter argument that isn't based in any arbitrary measurements like the length of time it's been allowed in the past or ADV needing to remain unique by being the only tier that has it allowed (lol). Luck will always be a part of ADV as long as Rock Slide and paralysis are in the format, but the astounding 50% self-damage chance makes it much more difficult to account for luck in your standard turn to turn calculations and nearly doubles the immobilization rate of the aforementioned. Swagger also seems to have a much higher potential for abuse because of its synergy with substitute, as well as particularly fast or physically defensive mons and near universal distribution (this is potentially what separates it from other luck moves like Sand Attack or Flash), allowing for mons with otherwise standard viability to shake up their normal sets and gain a disproportionately large advantage with a luck-based strategy out the gate.

swagger's distribution vs flash and sand attack for reference

 

[SEA]

Since there has been a week with no opposition, the council has voted and decided to ban Swagger from ADV OU. Marty Kris please implement this at your earliest convenience.