Is speed seriously the only thing that matters in this game?
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SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)
- Thread starter haunter
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tehy
Banned deucer.
Dude
Just ban Swagger, or confusion moves if you want to go that far.
Swagger is the most stupid element of this strategy, and banning it is the easiest solution:
If you ban Swagger+Foul Play, you still leave the door open for Swagger to be annoying;although you've nerfed it considerably, it still won't die entirely. Substitute+Thunder Wave+Swagger, with spikes even provided by Klefki to prevent wanton switching. Ditto sweeps in the lategame are still entirely possible.
If you ban Swagger+Prankster, what's to stop faster pokemon from still using it? After all, Thunder Wave and Substitute are already key elements of SwagPlay strategies, and while lacking Prankster makes it more difficult to pull off, you can still paralyse stuff and then outspeed it.
If you ban confusion outright (I refer only to confuse ray and the like) you remove some semi-legitimate strategies, such as using Confuse Ray on a switch-in you have no means to otherwise deter, or to force further switches. Those are still luck-based, but realistically speaking, you have a 75% chance for one confusion self-hit in two turns, so it's not so bad.
Banning Swagger takes away this incredibly stupid and luck-based move, forever, without any other adverse affects on strategy or diversity.
Ban Swagger.
Just ban Swagger, or confusion moves if you want to go that far.
Swagger is the most stupid element of this strategy, and banning it is the easiest solution:
If you ban Swagger+Foul Play, you still leave the door open for Swagger to be annoying;although you've nerfed it considerably, it still won't die entirely. Substitute+Thunder Wave+Swagger, with spikes even provided by Klefki to prevent wanton switching. Ditto sweeps in the lategame are still entirely possible.
If you ban Swagger+Prankster, what's to stop faster pokemon from still using it? After all, Thunder Wave and Substitute are already key elements of SwagPlay strategies, and while lacking Prankster makes it more difficult to pull off, you can still paralyse stuff and then outspeed it.
If you ban confusion outright (I refer only to confuse ray and the like) you remove some semi-legitimate strategies, such as using Confuse Ray on a switch-in you have no means to otherwise deter, or to force further switches. Those are still luck-based, but realistically speaking, you have a 75% chance for one confusion self-hit in two turns, so it's not so bad.
Banning Swagger takes away this incredibly stupid and luck-based move, forever, without any other adverse affects on strategy or diversity.
Ban Swagger.
Unlike Double Team, however, SwagPlay does not require you to use incredibly niche stuff like Aerial Ace and Swift. You could use any of a number of walls that do practically no damage to themselves with Confusion (Rotom-W in particular is great anyway), and if you want a more offensive answer you could always run your own Prankster (Thundurus-I comes to mind) with Taunt or Substitute. Basically, there are a variety of good ways to handle it, unlike evasion and Moody.
4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 106-126 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 87-103 (32.1 - 38%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO
While Espeon can do nothing back, Xatu has just an 8% chance to 2HKO with Heat Wave, and Absol can't touch it without running Fire Blast.
So you switch out, the opponent uses Prankster Swagger on whatever you switch in, and then…you switch out again…and you just switch out repeatedly for 100s of turns until their whole team runs out of Swagger PP? Is that what you're suggesting?
I was talking about magic bouncing the swagger/T-wave then switching out. That's normally what I do. I do the same thing with spore smeargles.
Then just switch into something that can handle a foul play.
Edit:
Also you're forgetting a ton of pokemon can learn magic coat through tutors.
I'll just leave these here~
- 8 Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 158-188 (58 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 8 Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 131-154 (48.3 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 8 Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 194-230 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
There are no concrete defensive answers to SwagPlay because any wall can kill itself with confusion damage while being worn down by a boosted Foul Play. Remember that Swagger's Att boost affects both confusion self-damage and Foul Play's damage.
What's the matter, Trainer? Is draining 24PP too much work?
You can decrese the IVs to 0. I still don't understand how people forget that.
Talking sense. This guy pretty much nailed it.
Switching in standard play is totally fine, but if you want to stall a Swagplay team out of its Swaggers then that's a 144+ (6*24) turn match of switching, and of course if you do it constantly they will start switching themselves, or hitting your Pokémon with Foul Play. I don't know about you but I think that's a massive waste of time.
I used to think we shouldn't ban it, but frankly when you're having to deal with people using this nonsense non-strategy even high up on the ladder when you're going for reqs, you'll realise it's not worth it for any serious player. There are literally people who are laddering constantly with teams like these, hundreds of games, and on less popular ladders like the suspect ladder you could come against this same troll and his SwagPlay team 5 times in a day. That's not enjoyable for anyone. Let's not pretend it's comparable to critical hits, which are only 1/16 and prepared for in the course of normal teambuilding
Also funny how Smogon is second this time to consider a Swagger ban. Usually it's Pokemon Online who follows the example.
They can be countered though, and fairly easily too. Just use any Electric-type. :^)
PO banned M-Luke and M-Khan before Smogon too.
Nothing should be banned.
However, if you high council dudes feel like something needs to be sacrificed to keep the gods of Smogon happy, it should be swagger+prankster combination. That way we can still have our swagger and a diverse set of pranksters.
Banning all the pranksters that can use sub/wave/swag/play sets is just plain dimwitted, because they have many other viable sets that don't rely on swagger.
Banning swagger leaves a lot of pokemon with no way to confuse an enemy, and it ends quite a bit of strategies not mentioned in this thread that use swagger for the attack boost rather than the confusion.
However, if you high council dudes feel like something needs to be sacrificed to keep the gods of Smogon happy, it should be swagger+prankster combination. That way we can still have our swagger and a diverse set of pranksters.
Banning all the pranksters that can use sub/wave/swag/play sets is just plain dimwitted, because they have many other viable sets that don't rely on swagger.
Banning swagger leaves a lot of pokemon with no way to confuse an enemy, and it ends quite a bit of strategies not mentioned in this thread that use swagger for the attack boost rather than the confusion.
Yeah, and then they suspect Dnite and Volc in early BW.
The day we suspect FUCKING KLEFKI AND LIEPARD I die a little inside.
What do you gain with a good move if you aren't able to use because of priority?
The bottom line is it's an ineffective strategy. Just because a few players made it high on the ladder with such a team doesn't change this. With luck based strategies you are bound to have some outliers in the upper end of the distribution, but that's what they are - outliers. Introducing bans like this has a pragmatic element that people don't consider enough. Pokemon bans are simple. Players can easily mention to each other what pokemon is banned and what isn't. Bans for moves like this introduce (and continue) a dangerous precedent. If it continues, this ruleset will be one that is only feasible on simulators.
Since Swagger and other confusion moves aren't broken but simply annoying, they should remain in the metagame for the sake of simplicity.
Since Swagger and other confusion moves aren't broken but simply annoying, they should remain in the metagame for the sake of simplicity.
It's not just dumb teams of six swagplayers, but teams that also use Ditto and a couple sweepers, that are a problem. There's a really good one on the RMT subforum. But the question is, how strong is this team compared to, say, HO Deo-sharp teams? Or Birdspam teams? How easy is it to handle or counter vs. the current cookie-cutter HO teams that dominate the top of the ladder?
Flatter and Confuse Ray are absolutely not a problem. They're annoying as shit but the attack raise from swagger increases "it hit itself" damage as well as Foul Play damage, which makes it a lot more devastating. Prankster Confuse Ray and Flatter are really only useful for being an asshole or possibly stopping a +1 D-dancer or something.
If you want to ban confusion altogether because Pokemon "shouldn't be a luck-based game," you are dumb as bricks. 75/80/90/95% accurate moves, High Jump Kick which pretty much kills you if you miss, Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam's 10% chance of BRN/PAR/FRZ, flinch chance from Iron Head and others, Paraflinch Togekis/Jirachi, CRITS, there are a buttload of things in the game that can make or a break a game based on what the RNG rolls, and I'm sure everyone here has lost or won games due to poorly-timed misses, crits or secondary effects.
Flatter and Confuse Ray are absolutely not a problem. They're annoying as shit but the attack raise from swagger increases "it hit itself" damage as well as Foul Play damage, which makes it a lot more devastating. Prankster Confuse Ray and Flatter are really only useful for being an asshole or possibly stopping a +1 D-dancer or something.
If you want to ban confusion altogether because Pokemon "shouldn't be a luck-based game," you are dumb as bricks. 75/80/90/95% accurate moves, High Jump Kick which pretty much kills you if you miss, Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam's 10% chance of BRN/PAR/FRZ, flinch chance from Iron Head and others, Paraflinch Togekis/Jirachi, CRITS, there are a buttload of things in the game that can make or a break a game based on what the RNG rolls, and I'm sure everyone here has lost or won games due to poorly-timed misses, crits or secondary effects.
I did. It just doesn't show up in the calc.
To keep you from moving, Jirachi and Togekiss have to keep using the same move over and over, while SwagPlayers can use Sub, Foul Play, or whatever else they feel like.
EDIT: dammit I'm arguing against my own side aren't I XD
bad bad bad. this entire discussion is silly because the whole problem can be rid of by switching. not liking a strategy is not grounds enough to ban it and it can very easily be played around. this is clearly not on the level of Moody or Funbro so i don't see why this is even being discussed
no bans
no bans
I know Smogon does not favor complex bans most of the time, but this time it is merited,
The only reason why swagplay is even a thing is because enough Prankster pokemon learn Swagger and/or Paralysis which just makes the luck part even more apparent. Regardless of how Swagger is used outside of these teams, we do not want to send a wrong message that we think Swagger by itself is broken, or that we want to limit it's potential future use if any because we are stiff about considering complex bans. Just like what we did with the Endless clause and did not ban Leppa berry alone, we should do the same thing here.
As for strategy (Swagplay) itself:
A) Blah Blah Blah switch: Yes, just switch until your whole team is paralyzed and then you only need to swagger from now on or use Substitute until you can't move that turn, genius.
B) Ground types! Air ballon, flying pranksters, Body slam, Swagger making them hit themselves extremely hard such that a subsequent foulplay will most likely kill them immediately, etc.
C) Sylveon, Numel, etc.: Non OU pokemon being used for the chance of successfully countering a random swagplay team at the cost of using better pokemon for the tasks at hand.
D) tl;dr You're all being whiny idiots and Smogon is too banhappy. Don't ban anything: Go back to youtube.
Edit: Haunter should add in the OP the chances of hitting after a paralysis and confusion, and that's without taking into account an enemy behind subs.
- ban the move Swagger in conjunction with the ability Prankster (complex ban)
The only reason why swagplay is even a thing is because enough Prankster pokemon learn Swagger and/or Paralysis which just makes the luck part even more apparent. Regardless of how Swagger is used outside of these teams, we do not want to send a wrong message that we think Swagger by itself is broken, or that we want to limit it's potential future use if any because we are stiff about considering complex bans. Just like what we did with the Endless clause and did not ban Leppa berry alone, we should do the same thing here.
As for strategy (Swagplay) itself:
A) Blah Blah Blah switch: Yes, just switch until your whole team is paralyzed and then you only need to swagger from now on or use Substitute until you can't move that turn, genius.
B) Ground types! Air ballon, flying pranksters, Body slam, Swagger making them hit themselves extremely hard such that a subsequent foulplay will most likely kill them immediately, etc.
C) Sylveon, Numel, etc.: Non OU pokemon being used for the chance of successfully countering a random swagplay team at the cost of using better pokemon for the tasks at hand.
D) tl;dr You're all being whiny idiots and Smogon is too banhappy. Don't ban anything: Go back to youtube.
Edit: Haunter should add in the OP the chances of hitting after a paralysis and confusion, and that's without taking into account an enemy behind subs.
Doesn't matter, if it is included in this, it's the same strategy, just with their own flinching > confusion, they're really not different.
Well for one thing Klefki has Spikes so it is more than happy to make you repeatedly switch through your whole team and rack up residual damage. Second, it is completely ridiculous to suggest that we should be happy with a 200-turn PP stall out match and claim that has no negative impact on the metagame. It's uncompetitive and the person using this strategy is not exhibiting skill.
I, for once, am in complete disagreement with the majority of the community. The reason stems from some experiences I have had in the older meta game (mainly towards the end of Black/White2 where I decided to use confusion as a viable phazing tactic, much like yawn.) While I understand that people strongly dislike the Swaggerplay combination, confusion will remain a viable tactic for teams to have a pseduo-phazing technique on pokemon such as lanturn (heal bell support with confuse ray) and a better WW on a speedster pokemon like Crobat.
There is a complete ton of pokemon with access to these moves. Many of these pokemon gain some niche in stall (Defensive ninetails, Mismagius, Lanturn... hell, even politoed can make use of this) due to these moves. The issue resides in pokemon that have prankster. There are even counters to these strategies, such as inherently low attack pokemon (Chansey is perhaps the most widely used counter to this. Many of you know I'm more a defensive player, so it should be noted that I'm bothered more by something like Serene grace Togekiss than this strat). There is an ability that invalidates confusion and it does have some distribution (Own Tempo). Yes, I realize that people don't like to be limited to using a 'second rate ability', but it does exist and is a hard counter for confusion. Confusion outside of the prankster pokes isn't terrible popular, either.
Swag play itself is annoying and relatively luck based. But even here, there is a hard counter in a substitute, of which neither confusion nor thunderwave get by. Yes, when coupled with prankster, there is very little that can get behind one in time, but this is again sprouting an issue DUE TO PRANKSTER.
Confusion is niche outside of prankster, but it does have legitimate uses in the same way yawn does. Let me retain that niche usage and just take care of another confusion based complex ban when coupled with prankster.
There is a complete ton of pokemon with access to these moves. Many of these pokemon gain some niche in stall (Defensive ninetails, Mismagius, Lanturn... hell, even politoed can make use of this) due to these moves. The issue resides in pokemon that have prankster. There are even counters to these strategies, such as inherently low attack pokemon (Chansey is perhaps the most widely used counter to this. Many of you know I'm more a defensive player, so it should be noted that I'm bothered more by something like Serene grace Togekiss than this strat). There is an ability that invalidates confusion and it does have some distribution (Own Tempo). Yes, I realize that people don't like to be limited to using a 'second rate ability', but it does exist and is a hard counter for confusion. Confusion outside of the prankster pokes isn't terrible popular, either.
Swag play itself is annoying and relatively luck based. But even here, there is a hard counter in a substitute, of which neither confusion nor thunderwave get by. Yes, when coupled with prankster, there is very little that can get behind one in time, but this is again sprouting an issue DUE TO PRANKSTER.
Confusion is niche outside of prankster, but it does have legitimate uses in the same way yawn does. Let me retain that niche usage and just take care of another confusion based complex ban when coupled with prankster.
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