SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[Sinning]

Swagplay can be used as methods not to cripple or hax a person, BUT it can also be used as a way to give a chance to the person who is losing a comeback to come out. In reality swagplay can be used as a nice comeback tool if you are lucky enough.

Uncompetitive. It allows an inferior player to win through luck, as you admitted. I think we're done here, lel.

 

[PenguinKnight]

if you are lucky enough.

Lol

 

[Poopfist]

COMPETITIVE is when the 2 players can react to each other...and so the one with the best strategy can win...created hax is still a strategy(and paralysis can be used by a serene grace body slam, or glare as i use in my zygarde in my secondary team that i'm testing, so groung types are not immune).

Your opponent CAN'T react to 0HKO moves or evasion without using something JUST for this.
0HKO moves when you use and it works you kill a pokemon...it could have 1% chance of working, it's still uncompetitive because you can't react.
Evasion you use on yourself and after you use it, the game turns into hax WITHOUT the ooponent having a chance to react(in fact he CAN, be is forced to run some moves...and if you are FORCED to use something when building a team, then it's uncompetitive)

So, swagger is NOT uncompetitive. you use on the opponent and he can switch and bring someone who can bring klefki down in few moves or bring a defensive mon. it's much less powerfull or uncompetivive than paraflinch. But as i said before, the combination of the 4 moves is amazing..BUT THE 4 TOGETHER...not just swagger

I'm not asking for a ban of swagger and twave if you really enjoy that for some reason then that's fine by me. I support a complex ban of Swagger in conjunction with Prankster because there really are no good checks or counters and no team should have to be built around countering Swagger Play alone.

Also I don't think bringing up serene grace body slam or glare zygrade is really relevant, I was making a point that twave has far more VIABLE checks and counters then Swagger does. Like many other posters have said the direct counters to Swagger ie Own Tempo users are largely terrible or their other ability is just far more viable.

 

[Wise Walrus]

I hate swagplay but how can you really ban this? Prankster is annoying as all hell but it isn't broken. Swagger, prankster, twave, and foul play are all legitimate strategies in my eyes, it's only when all of them are together (with something like substitute) that it becomes a problem. If you can ban that moveset/combination then fine, but banning swagger/prankster on their own seems pretty lame, and banning the pokes that use them is ridiculous. Even though klefki is the poster child for this strategy there are actually a handful of other move sets it can run that are completely viable and useful.

 

[termi]

Swagplay can be used as methods not to cripple or hax a person, BUT it can also be used as a way to give a chance to the person who is losing a comeback to come out. In reality swagplay can be used as a nice comeback tool if you are lucky enough.

You just made an excellent pro-ban argument, gg well played I am proud of you son.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I hate swagplay but how can you really ban this? Prankster is annoying as all hell but it isn't broken. Swagger, prankster, twave, and foul play are all legitimate strategies in my eyes, it's only when all of them are together (with something like substitute) that it becomes a problem. If you can ban that moveset/combination then fine, but banning swagger/prankster on their own seems pretty lame, and banning the pokes that use them is ridiculous. Even though klefki is the poster child for this strategy there are actually a handful of other move sets it can run that are completely viable and useful.

We've been over this, it's a lot more than just annoying, it's unhealthy how you can win games from just luck

 

[Sinning]

I hate swagplay but how can you really ban this? Prankster is annoying as all hell but it isn't broken. Swagger, prankster, twave, and foul play are all legitimate strategies in my eyes, it's only when all of them are together (with something like substitute) that it becomes a problem. If you can ban that moveset/combination then fine, but banning swagger/prankster on their own seems pretty lame, and banning the pokes that use them is ridiculous. Even though klefki is the poster child for this strategy there are actually a handful of other move sets it can run that are completely viable and useful.

I take it that you haven't bothered to read any part of this thread.

 

[SpecsHaxorus]

This topic made me crawl out of the lurker hole once again. Simply put, there is nothing more infuriating than getting swagplayed to death. Even swagger by itself can be very annoying and down right broken if luck favors your opponent (Battle video: 9LCG-WWWW-WWW5-RMXR). Honestly seeing Purrloin viable in OU reminds me of another unevolved pokemon that could wreck the entire OU tier if its lucky enough. Aron, Riolu and Moody Bidoof. No one can argue the fact that both rely 100% on luck and use very minimal skill in order to achieve victory.
Smogon should either ban Prankster + confusion status moves or just ban all confusion status moves. At least with Prankster out of the way there is a chance one of your faster pokemon can come in and take/force out the pokemon before the coin flip begins.

 

[PenguinKnight]

I take it that you haven't bothered to read any part of this thread.

I'd like to see an anti-ban post that isn't made by people who have not bothered to read at least half of this thread- really, any chunk of 25 pages (heck even 15) will probably readily refute anything they have to say. There was a good one about swagger being good for phazing, which I concur, but I still find the luck-based element present.

 

[Sinning]

I'd like to see an anti-ban post that isn't made by people who have not bothered to read at least half of this thread- really, any chunk of 25 pages (heck even 15) will probably readily refute anything they have to say. There was a good one about swagger being good for phazing, which I concur, but I still find the luck-based element present.

I'm really not surprised. People who use this strategy in game often do so for the "trolling" factor. It doesn't surprise me that many of their "defenses" were one liners with little logic actually applied. There can actually be good arguments made for and against the point, but there is no argument for allowing this strategy while banning Evasion.

While I admit confusion has applications in the form of phazing, it's an inferior way to phaze. In fairness, though, we shouldn't push players into using "the best" things; rather, they should want to use "the best" since we are a competitive community. Banning Swagger would be good for the competitive community, but not all of us are on showdown to be competitive, I guess. Some people are just here to play some pokemon, right? So I think a complex ban will do the least damage for everyone involved, not just the competitive community. I think there's no reason we can't consider every user of showdown when we make changes. After all, our community gets a lot of shit for how we do things, and a little courtesy when solving this problem isn't a bad thing.

The complex ban I'd propose is banning Swagger + Foul play on the same set. It keeps parafusion around for those who, for some reason, use it. It keeps swagger as a form a phazing, no matter how inferior. It really solves the problem without creating situations like the Leppa Berry/endless battle clause did.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I'd like to see an anti-ban post that isn't made by people who have not bothered to read at least half of this thread- really, any chunk of 25 pages (heck even 15) will probably readily refute anything they have to say. There was a good one about swagger being good for phazing, which I concur, but I still find the luck-based element present.

Phazing is about the only thing confusion is "good" for, but when you mix priority into it, you've got a bad system. Besides, Yawn and dragon tail (or roar/other phazing move) do that better as confusion wears off and stuff. I may be against outright banning confusion, but there aren't that many decent arguments to keep it

 

[GuilherWolfang]

It really doesn't require that. Like I said earlier, the problem is Foul Play + Swagger, but the real issue is that this strategy is more degenerate than another strategy we have banned - Evasion - yet we allow this strategy. All I'm saying is that Smogon can't be allowed to be hypocritical when making policies, and if strategies that are identical to Swag Play are banned, then there is not a reason under the sun to allow Swag Play to be used.

Ban it, or remove Evasion and OHKO clauses. That is my entire point.

Man, I already said in 3 posts why 0HKO and Evasion and VERY different from swagger o.o You can read my posts and disagree with me, it's ok, but post the reason you disagree, don't just say that it need the clauses removed. ^^

But identical to swagplay is paraflinch where you have the same paralisys and almost every paraflinch team uses confusion too for parafusion combo...and you have flinch to attack instead of foulplay....so, banning one will lead to ban the other. I truly don't think theses strategies are unfair as you need time to setup.

PLEASE READ THIS: i think it's an important thought. Usually a whole team is made to use a strategy, with one pokemon covering weakness of another and add more potency to the strategy(like a baton pass team using soundproof or suction cup and even paraflinch using machamp to cause confusion and make paraflinch better) ..but see...IT'S A WHOLE TEAM BUILD TO DO THAT!! SwagPlay is different, you can have just ONE pokemon(klefki) with a nearly flawless strategy that usually an entire team is build to have. With the 4 moves you cause parafusion, always good attack(foul play), always good defense and immune to status(substitute) andalways moving first(prankster)...in ONE POKEMON you have what you build a FULL TEAM to have (good ofense, good degense, block status, priority, utility) and so..i think it's important to consider that...and ban the combination of everything...ban the specific set.

 

[Wise Walrus]

We've been over this, it's a lot more than just annoying, it's unhealthy how you can win games from just luck

Yeah it is. All I'm saying is that none of the suggested bans are good enough in my opinion. The problem is that moveset, with all the moves together. Prankster twave and prankster swagger alone aren't enough of a problem to be banned, and banning things like klefki or Thundurus just because they can use this is ridiculous when they can do plenty of other good things as well.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Yeah it is. All I'm saying is that none of the suggested bans are good enough in my opinion. The problem is that moveset, with all the moves together. Prankster twave and prankster swagger alone aren't enough of a problem to be banned, and banning things like klefki or Thundurus just because they can use this is ridiculous when they can do plenty of other good things as well.

Uhm...

Ban Swagger --> move that turns matches into a series of coinflips is removed --> profit?

I really fail to see why you guys are making this way more complicated than it really is. Ofcourse Swagger can be more effective (or in other words, more annoying) with the right support from abilities and/or moves like Prankster, Foul Play and Substitute. But remove Prankster out of the equation and the problem is solved. You can still use your Prankster pokemon, games are no longer being turned into coinflips due to an uncompetitive strategy and everybody is happy.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Yeah it is. All I'm saying is that none of the suggested bans are good enough in my opinion. The problem is that moveset, with all the moves together. Prankster twave and prankster swagger alone aren't enough of a problem to be banned, and banning things like klefki or Thundurus just because they can use this is ridiculous when they can do plenty of other good things as well.

All right, I'll agree with you banning the pokemon is a bad idea, and prankster Twave doesn't make much sense because it isn't really an issue with its obvious counters and primary use to lower speed and not to hax, but what do you suggest about prankster swagger? Without prankster, swagger isn't a huge issue as anyone can switch to a poke to KO the swaggerer before getting confused, but you're right that without Twave, this strategy is rather unviable.

I'm for banning just prankster + swagger as that will solve the problem but have the least affect on the metagame, but as long as the problem gets solved I don't care what we do

 

[GuilherWolfang]

Agree with Wise Walrus, all the banning options are unfair....confusion or t-wave is not a problem if it were parafusion would have been banned a long time ago....created hax in a strategy on a team is not exactly hax, foul play is a good move for defensive pokemon and not game breaking or unfair. And status prankster is not uncompetitive too, there's other pokes to use it and no one complained ¬¬ The combination of all this is that makes a strategy almost flawless in ONE pokemon in a situation you would need an entire team to mimic this strategy without this pokemon. so BAN THE SET o/

 

[Nix_Hex]

Is that a legitimate argument though? The same goes for a solid stall team, for example if you have seen Lord Elyis vs Lady Bug's stall vs stall match, that took over 400 turns, but I don't think that's ever been brought up for banning stall.

Strange example for a counter-argument although that sounds ridiculous. My sentiments to both players, sounds like hell. If it was a tournament match then I can understand why it went that long but a ladder player who can swallow their pride will budget their time (hours) and a potential win vs. loss + tons of extra time to rack up wins. A one-off example like that wouldn't ever be brought up because anyone who petitions to ban stall would be laughed off the site. The potential to have several ladder matches where your opponent is brainlessly selecting swaggersubstitutethunderwavesubstitutesubstituteswaggerfoulplayfoulplay, even if you are NOT running a stall team or Mandibuzz or Clefable, is destroys a player's laddering experience.

 

[Sinning]

Man, I already said in 3 posts why 0HKO and Evasion and VERY different from swagger o.o You can read my posts and disagree with me, it's ok, but post the reason you disagree, don't just say that it need the clauses removed. ^^

But identical to swagplay is paraflinch where you have the same paralisys and almost every paraflinch team uses confusion too for parafusion combo...and you have flinch to attack instead of foulplay....so, banning one will lead to ban the other. I truly don't think theses strategies are unfair as you need time to setup.

PLEASE READ THIS: i think it's an important thought. Usually a whole team is made to use a strategy, with one pokemon covering weakness of another and add more potency to the strategy(like a baton pass team using soundproof or suction cup and even paraflinch using machamp to cause confusion and make paraflinch better) ..but see...IT'S A WHOLE TEAM BUILD TO DO THAT!! SwagPlay is different, you can have just ONE pokemon(klefki) with a nearly flawless strategy that usually an entire team is build to have. With the 4 moves you cause parafusion, always good attack(foul play), always good defense and immune to status(substitute) andalways moving first(prankster)...in ONE POKEMON you have what you build a FULL TEAM to have (good ofense, good degense, block status, priority, utility) and so..i think it's important to consider that...and ban the combination of everything...ban the specific set.

Just because you say they're very different does not make it true. I've given my reasons as to why Evasion is similar enough to Swag Play to warrant either a ban of Swag Play or an unban of evasion. Please back up your reasons the next time you post.

 

[Exxodus]

I'd like to know if banning Swagger and Foul Play on the same set too complex of a ban? If both were to be banned on the same set, it literally destroys SwagPlay. I feel this is a better alternative because previous posters have a Prankster and use Swagger on the same set for a different strategy. Banning the combination of Swagger and Prankster would indirectly limit some other strategies out there and that would be unfair.

 

[114]

There's a lot of focus around confusion being uncompetitive.

Prankster + swagger is uncompetitive because you have no chance to stop it because it has priority and will put you at a tough +2atk 50/50 position. Own tempo isn't well distributed enough to stop it.

Confusion itself is not uncompetitive because it relies on speed. A fast confusion from say confuse-ray crobat is a strategy. It's an advantage of having high speed. Confuse ray + u turn out (predict the switch, etc).

Confusion itself is a legitimate strategy similar to twave. It's 50% instead of 25% negative rate, but it's not permanent (you can switch out), and does not lower your speed. We're not here to eliminate luck, but here to eliminate uncompetitive strategies.

Prankster + priority swagger + foul play + priority substitute + priority spikes is abuse and uncompetitive. Confusion moves in general are just as legitimate as twave.

 

[theoblivinator]

Alright, I don't post here pretty much at all but I have a question that I'm sure I can get answered.

Is this potential ban only taking place in OU Singles? Because in Doubles it is perfectly legitimate to use a Pokemon with Prankster and the moves Safeguard and Swagger together, to give your teammate the attack boost from Swagger without the Confusion. I would hate for this discussion to lead to the ban of Swagger or the ban of Swagger on Prankster users, and completely disregard some of the other uses it has other than SwagPlay.

So someone please clear that up for me. Thank you! :)

 

[Wise Walrus]

Uhm...

Ban Swagger --> move that turns matches into a series of coinflips is removed --> profit?

I really fail to see why you guys are making this way more complicated than it really is. Ofcourse Swagger can be more effective (or in other words, more annoying) with the right support from abilities and/or moves lik Prankster, Foul Play and Substitute. But remove Prankster out of the equation and the problem is solved. You can still use your Prankster pokemon, games are no longer being turned into coinflips due to an uncompetitive strategy and everybody is happy.

I really don't see what's complicated:

Prankster + swagger - not ban worthy
Prankster + twave - not ban worthy
Swagger + foul play - not ban worthy
Swagger + twave - not ban worthy

Prankster + swagger + twave + foul play = ban worthy

The only point I've been trying to make is that none of the three options listed in the first post are acceptable to me, and no offense to whoever came up them. If those are the only options, then I'd rather nothing be done. If you really want this gone then just ban the combination instead of an individual move.

 

[GuilherWolfang]

Just because you say they're very different does not make it true. I've given my reasons as to why Evasion is similar enough to Swag Play to warrant either a ban of Swag Play or an unban of evasion. Please back up your reasons the next time you post.

But I said i have the reason in 3 posts before lol
Want me to write it a forth time? Ok I'll write(you don't have to agree, just take it into consideration when awnsering). You can't react to evasion without luck OR without using something in your team just for this. And if you are forced to something it's not competitive. why? because the opponent used evasion on himself, YOU CAN'T CONTROL IT. In swagger case, when you send an obvious swagger pokemon the opponent can control who get confused and will use the best pokemon on his team to counter this...luck based with 50/50%? yes, but so is paralysis(also halts speed)... Swagger is not bad, and luck is an integral part of the game...a luck that you can't react(or is forced to use something on a team to counter it) like evasion is uncompetitive.

What swagger really do is shape the metagame to use more bulkier pokemons on a team, that won't be 1 or 2hko. I don't have a problem with it, the last gen OU was really offensive..this one can be more defensive with stall, confusion, paralysis, etc...it's ok.

LIKE I SAID THE PROBLEM IS THE WHOLE SET, THAT MAKES ONE POKEMON DO THE WORK THAT A FULL TEAM IS BUILD TO DO.

 

[Poopfist]

I'd like to know if banning Swagger and Foul Play on the same set too complex of a ban? If both were to be banned on the same set, it literally destroys SwagPlay. I feel this is a better alternative because previous posters have a Prankster and use Swagger on the same set for a different strategy. Banning the combination of Swagger and Prankster would indirectly limit some other strategies out there and that would be unfair.

What strategies does that limit that aren't entirely hax based?

It seems the anti-ban crowd is more focused on freedom of choice than the actual metagame. We shouldn't limit player's options guys lets allow Evasion moves everyone will just have to run Shock Wave and Aerial Ace to compensate. We shouldn't limit player choice even if it's haxy for some reason.

The only compelling reason to keep Swagger has been for phasing.

 

[atomicllamas]

Alright, I don't post here pretty much at all but I have a question that I'm sure I can get answered.

Is this potential ban only taking place in OU Singles? Because in Doubles it is perfectly legitimate to use a Pokemon with Prankster and the moves Safeguard and Swagger together, to give your teammate the attack boost from Swagger without the Confusion. I would hate for this discussion to lead to the ban of Swagger or the ban of Swagger on Prankster users, and completely disregard some of the other uses it has other than SwagPlay.

So someone please clear that up for me. Thank you! :)

Yes this would only affect smogon singles (it is in the OU subforum after all).