I said that in a reply to someone who claimed there was nothing complex about a complex ban. Since you seem to be good at programming you could probably confirm that simply banning Swagger rather than a combination of Swagger + Prankster is significantly easier to code. Anyways it's really an unnecessary argument, there's just no good reason to opt for a complex ban when a simple Swagger ban solves everything. People might also want to take a look at the PO Swagger suspect test, they give some good extra explanations on why this is the case.
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SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)
- Thread starter haunter
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All right, I have to get on a plane in 4 hours and haven't packed yet, so I really hope this is the last time I post.
When you do the math, there's a 4% chance that when Slowbro and Klefki fight, Slowbro will NEVER move. Is that a significant amount, no. But since it can, AND HAS, happened, and there's not really anything solid defensive pokemon like Slowbro can do about it besides get lucky, I don't understand how we can still be arguing if Swagplay needs to go.
When you do the math, there's a 4% chance that when Slowbro and Klefki fight, Slowbro will NEVER move. Is that a significant amount, no. But since it can, AND HAS, happened, and there's not really anything solid defensive pokemon like Slowbro can do about it besides get lucky, I don't understand how we can still be arguing if Swagplay needs to go.
Turn 1:
90% chance to hit with swagger
50% chance to not move from confusion
Turn 2:
100% chance to hit with Twave
62.5% chance to not move
Turn 3-6:
+2 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 20.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
62.5% chance to not move
.9 x .5 x .625 ^ 5 = .0429153442
I don't really feel like finding the chances of the 3HKO vs 4HKO, but basically, around 1/25 one on one match ups with Klefki will leave Slowbro feeling rather embaressed.
90% chance to hit with swagger
50% chance to not move from confusion
Turn 2:
100% chance to hit with Twave
62.5% chance to not move
Turn 3-6:
+2 4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 20.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
62.5% chance to not move
.9 x .5 x .625 ^ 5 = .0429153442
I don't really feel like finding the chances of the 3HKO vs 4HKO, but basically, around 1/25 one on one match ups with Klefki will leave Slowbro feeling rather embaressed.
No. Banning High Jump Kick is literally harder than banning Swagger or Swagger + Prankster. That means nothing.
I don't understand how using ADV OU is proving anything. The best users of this strategy did not exist then. They are nowhere near the same metagame, so testing the strategy using a team of Electrode is hardly conclusive when Electrode does not even scratch the surface of users like Klefki and Thundurus.
>No Choice Scarf and somewhat comparable metas
Try again. Electrode enjoyed a near impossible to "revenge-kill" Swagger, which was the point.
The ADV team refers to Tyranitar, Swampert, Dugtrio, Celebi, Blissey, and Skarmory. The SwagPlay team included Klefki and Tornadus-I amongst others. It is clear that you did not even bother to watch one single game I linked before replying.
The point of running the test with an ADV generation team was that, in addition to testing out XY SwagPlay, we were curious to see how broken SwagPlay would have been in the ADV meta had the move Foul Play existed back then and worked then as it does now. That was why we ran tests involving squads with Electrodes, as Electrode was the best approximation in Gen 3 of a Prankster SwagPlayer. What we found ... well, watch the games and draw your own conclusions.
Practically? Never. SlowBro can always switch-out and use Regenerator to reset the situation whenever things get bad. Remember, the original post I brought up was using a Chansey / Slowbro core and alternating between the two pokemon to PP Stall Klefki out of existance.
I use "Slowbro plays alone" to prove a point, the math heavily favors Slowbro. A 2HKO from Fire Blast vs Klefki means that over 25% of the time, Klefki is dead on turn 2, with 0 dmg on Slowbro.
Even then, what is the probability that Slowbro recovers from confusion in the first turn? You assume that Confusion lasts an infinite number of turns.
PS, there is a 4% chance that Choice Specs Togekiss strikes Tyranitar 6 times in a row for the 6HKO. But you'll never convince me that Togekiss has an "advantage" over Tyranitar, because of a 4% hax chance.
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>Prankster
Your argument is that ADV being similar is about as logical as comparing the effects of diet coke versus original coke on weight gain.
This is simply not true. I opened the first replay, saw that it was a meta that we are NOT discussing, and a team that was using this strategy was made up of four electrode, and decided it wasn't worth my time.
In the post of mine you quoted, I specifically directed Haunter to games 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9. Why do you think I did that. Please check out those games and tell me which of them involve Electrodes.
Your reply showed that you did not bother to check out any of those six games before hastily replying and writing them off as irrelevant.
Swagplay is a legitimate moveset idea that doesn't always work. It's not overpowered because all you need is a switch to something that has priority, or physical bulk, and hit the swagplayer hard. Most pokes with justified can switch in on the foul play, get +1 and deal with the problem easily. i.e.: Terrakion. If there does have to be something done, I'd go with Ban swagplay (both moves) only for pokemon with prankster.
>sinning
Which in point proves you CAN'T read and am no longer worth my time. Thanks for proving that to me. Just...stop. If something is uncompetitive because you can't outspeed it, then it stands to reason that its also uncompetitive in all other metas where this is the case. The replays show that the Pokemon using SwagPlay is almost insignificant outside of the first turn.
Which in point proves you CAN'T read and am no longer worth my time. Thanks for proving that to me. Just...stop. If something is uncompetitive because you can't outspeed it, then it stands to reason that its also uncompetitive in all other metas where this is the case. The replays show that the Pokemon using SwagPlay is almost insignificant outside of the first turn.
My apologies. I was in a hurry and misread yet again. I really need to quit doing that.
I feel like I should throw in my five cents here (apologies if this has already been said and I either missed the post or forgot about it- 63 pages is a lot). But lets think of this in terms of counters. Most teams I've seen usually carry one, may be two (on one occaision an entire team) of swag players. So, if you want to build a team with a counter or check to swag play you need to gamble. For example, Sylveon was cited above as a Pokemon who can handle Sableye well. While this is true, it handles Klefki considerably less well and Kelfki can just wait off until the damage from confusion is too much to take (if you're para-fused its not too easy to get off the wishes you need). So now you require a check or counter to Klefki as well.
The reason why I bring this example is to show that swagplay can't be checked too easily. It can't be ignored in team building because if you're laddering you're bound to run into a few swag play Pokemon. The best you can do is hope you brought the right check or counter to the battle. With that said, I'd like to say that the option of banning Swagger and Prankster together (the complex ban) is the best option to test if it is determined that action needs to be taken as Prankster is not independently broken and neither is swagger but together they create the luck role known as swag play.
The reason why I bring this example is to show that swagplay can't be checked too easily. It can't be ignored in team building because if you're laddering you're bound to run into a few swag play Pokemon. The best you can do is hope you brought the right check or counter to the battle. With that said, I'd like to say that the option of banning Swagger and Prankster together (the complex ban) is the best option to test if it is determined that action needs to be taken as Prankster is not independently broken and neither is swagger but together they create the luck role known as swag play.
A Calm Togekiss with only 4 SpA EVs using Air Slash vs. a Bold Slowbro with 252 HP EVs and 0 SpD EVs has a 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery, according to the calculator. Air Slash has a 60% chance to flinch the opponent with Serene Grace. Let's not even involve Thunder Wave in this equation: let's simply ask what the odds are of flinching the enemy Slowbro every turn for four turns in a row. 0.6 * 0.6 * 0.6 * 0.6 or 12.96%. In other words, the odds of flinchhaxing a Slowbro to death without once allowing him to get an attack in, even in the absence of Thunder Wave, is three times greater than the statistic you provided. By your logic of "since it can AND HAS happened," we must needs ban Air Slash + Serene Grace as well.
I should very, very much like to think that we are not going to ban Air Slash + Serene Grace.
Even if counters do exist (and they do, since Dragon Tamer proved earlier that Slowbro with Slack Off can shut down Klefki), it still isn't a good argument. Counters exist to everything we have banned. I'm with you on the complex ban of Swagger + Foul Play.
Except Slowbro is perhaps one of the worst "singleton" counters, as he is Foul Play weak.
Switch things over to Sylveon, Chansey, Hippowdon, Mega Venusaur, and other major low-attack high-defense tanks and all of a sudden, an entire CLASS of "counters" comes up.
This isn't the case of "you must use Chansey / Slowbro" to beat SwagPlay, this is a simple case of "Play a defensive pokemon -----> Win vs Swag Play". SwagPlay is a strategy that penalizes Heavy Offense teams, and tips the meta in favor of semi-stall teams. (You only need two or three pokemon to perpetually stall-out a SwagPlay)
Unless we start stretching the numbers to absolutely unreasonable levels. (IE: the 4% chance argument, which makes Togekiss Air Slash hax win against ridiculous things like TTar)
If I remember correctly, there are only a few ways to completely shut down a confusion user, the only who that I can think of on the spot being Magic Guard. However, I don't want to see all the Prankster users banned. So let's just ban Swagger, and if this problem persists, also ban Flatter, Confuse Ray and maybe Chatter.
^See that's what makes me think this needs to go more and more everyday.
The fact that you really have to bring a check or counter for not just one, but at least 3+ 'mons that don't all have the same problems setting it up. Although, yes it can be stopped, it's entirely luck based, and I think we can all agree that makes it "Un-competitive" which is what I'm sure we can all agree Smogon wants to maintain.
Banning the pokes themselves seems a bit too much since the Pokemon without thisstrategy isn't broken.
I've "dealt" with several Swagplay Dedicated teams, and because it's entirely luck based it's not up to me nor the user of said team what happens. But, if you have an unlucky day, which I'm sure we all do everyday on PS, then it can easily take your team out with little to no effort.
I shouldn't have to carry an Own Tempo Poke (Which is pretty much useless outside of dealing with this) just to avoid the Swagger hax.
The fact that you really have to bring a check or counter for not just one, but at least 3+ 'mons that don't all have the same problems setting it up. Although, yes it can be stopped, it's entirely luck based, and I think we can all agree that makes it "Un-competitive" which is what I'm sure we can all agree Smogon wants to maintain.
Banning the pokes themselves seems a bit too much since the Pokemon without this
I've "dealt" with several Swagplay Dedicated teams, and because it's entirely luck based it's not up to me nor the user of said team what happens. But, if you have an unlucky day, which I'm sure we all do everyday on PS, then it can easily take your team out with little to no effort.
I shouldn't have to carry an Own Tempo Poke (Which is pretty much useless outside of dealing with this) just to avoid the Swagger hax.
I've been on purpose trying to stay away from Magic Guard, because in practice, Sableye 2HKOs Espeon with Foul Play, and OHKOs Espeon at +2 from Swagger.
Absol on the other hand, completely wreaks all the SwagPlay sets that have been mentioned. But he's a bit of a weaker Mega and not an OU mon. So I think the direction towards Stall teams or semi-stall teams is a more reliable, OU worthy strategy.
Yeah, I agree that arguing over 4% would be unreasonable. Entire classes of counters may exist, but the same can be said about Evasion as well. Many moves, with decent distribution, exist to counter evasion. Evasion is deemed uncompetitive, and this isn't about providing options to counter the strategy. This strategy is incredibly luck based, and only manages to win by making the RNG more "in favor" of the user than the opponent. I believe that fits the definition of uncompetitive listed in the OP, and is grounds for suspecting.
The entire point of this is HAVING to bring an Espeon or something in order to counter SwagPlay. This surely proves that at the very least, Swagger should be banned.
But can Togekiss do that to every single pokemon in the game with varying degrees of success? No, because it doesn't have that god damn priority. The list of pokemon that can't be confuse haxed, even a tiny percentage of the time, is confined to Own tempo and priority sub users. Other reasonable stops like Chansey exist, but putting the game in the hands of RNG is something I NEVER thought people would support.
Sorry, would have responded sooner (trying not to waste time), but didn't see your post (I ignored you a long time ago).
My final question will be, why the hell do you want to keep this god damn "strategy" around so bad? It adds nothing to the metagame, it lets players beat better ones with a noticeable degree of success (at least compared to "traditional" ideas of skill). Proving stall can deal with it with a reasonable degree of surety is something I really ignore, because asking me to play stall is too much. A play style can have advantages over others, but the best player in the world should be able to beat trully terrible ones, even if he has a huge disadvantage in team building (say, monofire vs rain team last gen). Unless you run something specifically designed to counter it, then you're at the mercy of RNG.
Actually, you know what? Forget it. Arguing with you has wasted enough of my life as it is. Every moderator post I've seen points to this thing getting banned one way or another, and seeing you fight it all the way down just leaves me depressed at humanity.
Evasion counters require significant team retooling, as very few of them are actually good attacks in the current meta. The class of counters that beats SwagPlay are common to OU already and requires no changes to the meta.
While this is true to a degree, finding a spot for Slowbro on a HO offense team would be pretty difficult. The only clear refutation to this would be that HO isn't the best way to play, which I'd have to agree to. It does significantly change the meta, but again, this is irrelevant if the grounds for suspecting are whether or not this strategy is uncompetitive or not.
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