SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[LoDart210]

How is banning swagger going to solve anything?

Then the prankster players will move to confuse ray and attract. Inhibiting moves should be banned with prankster because priority inhibiting moves is stupid.

 

[Numera]

Some of the lack of understanding on this thread is so funny. Swagger is not being suspected being OP. It's that it makes the game a coin flip, which is not fair. Imagine if football ties were broken by coinflips. It'd be stupid, as is swagger. Prankster or not swagger is far too luck based and there is clear answer.


Tl;dr: Ban Swagger, too fucking luck based.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

How is banning swagger going to solve anything?

Then the prankster players will move to confuse ray and attract. Inhibiting moves should be banned with prankster because priority inhibiting moves is stupid.

attract isn't a problem. There's enough gender equality (in pokemon at least) that you'd be able to realistically avoid it.

And as far as I know, Sableye, Banette, and Murkrow are the only pranksters to get confuse ray (and only the last 2 get Twave), and I know for a fact that Klefki, Thundurus, and Liepard don't. Banning swagger would be a very effective way to keep swagplay (or more specifically the traits that people hate about it) from being a problem

 

[Toljik]

Well, there isn't much problem with confusion in general. You don't see riots happening over Machamps Dynamic Punch because he's slow, and even scarfed it loses to priority and ghosts. Which leads me to believe that Priority + Confusion is a problem, how much of a problem? Well who knows. Personally Swagger by itself isn't the biggest problem, using a special attacker in a prominently physical metagame that can dent steel with a coverage move outside of Hidden Power isn't entirely the most common, but even the problem is what is ran with that confusion to gimp you regardless of Swagger confuse hits dealing not too much as well as foul play not dealing much, possibly resisted. What I find a problem is Swagger + T-wave making a parafusion combo, a Clefable with Flamethrower can handle SwagPlay, and even has magic guard appreciating toxic/poison and burns, but Paralysis can cripple the use of Clefable as it wont be able to recover against other walls, is this a huge problem? Possibly, essentially they used a whole pokemon slot for a Klefki that paralyzed and did 20% to your Clefable, it could be worse.

That's what the people wanting to ban Swagger are forgetting. There is no reason why No Guard + Dynamic Punch shouldn't be banned if Swagger is, and that's a complex ban.

Yeah, Dynamic Punch is stopped by Ghosts, but just like no one here wants to put Chansey on every team, no one wants to put a Ghost on every team.

attract isn't a problem. There's enough gender diversity that you'd be able to realistically avoid it.

And as far as I know, Sableye, Banette, and Murkrow are the only pranksters to get confuse ray (and only the last 2 get Twave), and I know for a fact that Klefki, Thundurus, and Liepard don't. Banning swagger would be a very effective way to keep swagplay (or more specifically the traits that people hate about it) from being a problem

Liepard and Klefki can just switch to Attract.

 

[asbdsp]

I did some iterated analysis on SwagPlay using a couple of Pokemon. I'm going to generalize the formula to eventually allow for arbitrary Pokemon based on usage data, but here's my initial findings. I ran 10000 simulations of Klefki vs. <Pokemon> for this data. This is a simplified analysis and doesn't perfectly model an actual battle, but is relatively close.

Assumptions are that neither side switches out, ever, and that they fight until the bitter end. PP is not taken into account.

Pokemon     W        L
Blissey        10000     0
Rotom-W        6255     3745
Garchomp    7343     2657
Greninja    3772     6228
Heatran        9101     899
Gliscor        8907     1093
Aegislash    1486     8514
Slowbro        7128     2872

Leftovers IS taken into account.
Klefki uses the following formula:

def swagplay(me, enemy):
if not enemy.confused:
swagger(me, enemy)
elif not me.substitute and me.hp > me.maxhp / 4:
substitute(me, enemy)
else:
foulplay(me, enemy)

In the final iteration of my program, I will improve this formula to the Swaggerificc formula.

I believe this data will aid us in determining the competitiveness of the strategy, by determining how much each match-up is due to luck.

I'd still definitely like to see what results you can come up with here. Obviously it seems like subjective player experience is valued more highly in this discussion than actual data about the prevalence and reliability of counters. And obviously the only 100% reliable counters are chansey, blissey...? But if there are an adequate number of other viable counters in the win range of of heatran, gliscor then I think that's great evidence both that the strategy isn't as control seizing, or arguably even as luck based as some would have you believe. Not to mention the existence of prevalent counters would nullify the argument that this strategy places too much strain on teambuilding.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

That's what the people wanting to ban Swagger are forgetting. There is no reason why No Guard + Dynamic Punch shouldn't be banned if Swagger is, and that's a complex ban.

Yeah, Dynamic Punch is stopped by Ghosts, but just like no one here wants to put Chansey on every team, no one wants to put a Ghost on every team.

But asking people to put a ghost on every team is infinitely less ridiculous than asking everybody to use Chansey.

But you're forgetting what Chou said about the community having to decide something removes autonomy, and dynamic punch doesn't, mostly because it isn't priority, but also the ghost thing

 

[Toljik]

But asking people to put a ghost on every team is infinitely less ridiculous than asking everybody to use Chansey.

But you're forgetting what Chou said about the community having to decide something removes autonomy, and dynamic punch doesn't, mostly because it isn't priority, but also the ghost thing

If confusion hax can be stopped by priority, why do we want to ban Swagger alone? What do we accomplish by removing Swagger even from Pokemon who don't have Prankster?

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

If confusion hax can be stopped by priority, why do we want to ban Swagger alone?

I don't know, 50/50 odds are never a desirable thing, but when there's pretty reliable ways to avoid them, then I don't see why we'd ban them either. I sort of understand the desire to avoid complex bans, but it really comes down to whether you think a complex ban is worse than setting the precedent of banning things that don't really need to be banned.

 

[Toljik]

I don't know, 50/50 odds are never a desirable thing, but when there's pretty reliable ways to avoid them, then I don't see why we'd ban them either. I sort of understand the desire to avoid complex bans, but it really comes down to whether you think a complex ban is worse than setting the precedent of banning things that don't really need to be banned.

I would say that at this point, Smogon has a bigger precedent for avoiding collateral damage than they do for avoiding complex bans. See the Endless Battle Clause for a recent example.

 

[Caramelqueen]

Prankster swagger should be banned for both being really haxy, having almost as much chance of stopping the opposing pokemon as serene grace+ common flinch moves , but also has the chance to do so from as short as 1 turn, to as long as 4 turns.

Prankster+swagger is essentially a priority serene grace air slash, with the chance of it lasting over multiple turns with only a single use. And also unlike serene grace+flinch, one doesn't just lose a turn, but also takes damage from +2 40 base power move.

In 1 turn, a player can set up what's near the equivalent of the already haxy serene grace flinch combo, and with luck (aka what hax normally is) have it last several turns.

Regular prankster confusion already suffers from this problem, the addition of the +2 attack boost (which is useless on most sp attackers) provides more problems when used alongside moves such as foul play, further discouraging the already somewhat less common Sp attacker from being used.

Tl:dr Prankster Swagger is what you get when you take the already somewhat hax abusing Serene Grace flinches, give it priority, and then allow it the possibility of lasting multiple turns with only one use.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

What's obvious is that:
a) There is a lot of pro-ban sentiment
b) Amongst pro-ban, there are also users who feel strongly about "Swagger Ban" v. "Swagger + Prankster Ban" which they are entitled to
c) There are many pro-ban users who don't really care which it is as long as it gets banned, and ideally-- gets banned sooner. This too is a fine sentiment.


I've been avoiding posting my own opinion (since I already did in the Badge-user-only thread), but I'll post it here hoping it gives some users guidance.


Since taking the time to suspect Prankster-Swagger is highly undesirable and testing "Swagger Ban" v. "S+P Ban" would be both unproductive and likely vague (the difference between the two metagames would be SO hard to distinguish...) I propose we just ban S+P as it has the least effect-- and if non-prankster Swagger or Prankster+(other confusion Moves) is still an issue afterwords, we can always just quick-ban it then.

However, I would not be opposed to a full Swagger ban-- whatever we can agree on to do faster.



To be perfectly honest (as an OU mod), it's clear that this thread has served it's purpose and is becoming worse and worse in content.

As to why it's not closed yet-- well, I'd close it right now if I had the authority. Until the tiering leaders decide that this thread is finished, it will have to remain open.

This is very true. I agree with that opinion, and it makes sense and is similar to mine (you just put it into words better). I think this is what should be done.

 

[noobcubed]

That's what the people wanting to ban Swagger are forgetting. There is no reason why No Guard + Dynamic Punch shouldn't be banned if Swagger is, and that's a complex ban.

There's a big difference. Machamp and Golurk are sufficiently slow that they will generally have to take a hit before landing a punch. Every time they get a KO they will have to take another hit before they can hope for confusion hax again, so they're unlikely ever to get more than one KO versus an offensive team because they will be worn down too fast by opposing offensive pressure.

Swagplay users don't have this problem, because they always get to confuse you first. You will very rarely get a scenario where you can guarantee that you will even hit an opposing swagplayer on any given turn, much less KO it.

 

[Toljik]

There's a big difference. Machamp and Golurk are sufficiently slow that they will generally have to take a hit before landing a punch. Every time they get a KO they will have to take another hit before they can hope for confusion hax again, so they're unlikely ever to get more than one KO versus an offensive team because they will be worn down too fast by opposing offensive pressure.

Swagplay users don't have this problem, because they always get to confuse you first. You will very rarely get a scenario where you can guarantee that you will even hit an opposing swagplayer on any given turn, much less KO it.

Swagplay users with Prankster don't have this problem.

When I mentioned "the people wanting to ban Swagger", I meant the people who want all Pokemon banned from using the move.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Swagplay users with Prankster don't have this problem.

When I mentioned "the people wanting to ban Swagger", I meant the people who want all Pokemon banned from using the move.

Oh it's you again. The difference is that Swagger is uncompetitive and nearly every pokemon learns it. DynamicPunch is competitive because the confusion is but a side effect (albeit 100%) and has very limited distribution. There's no reason not to use DynamicPunch on No Guard Machamp for example. It's a solid STAB move that really benefits from it's ability. Swagger is used solely for hax purposes, it has no other use (yeah phazing too, but that's an indirect result of the hax because people are forced to deal with it one way or another so it's still just as uncompetitive, or in short: the hax is what forces the switches, which isn't fair play). That's been repeated quite a few times over the last 72 pages.

 

[fenyxofshadows]

Oh it's you again. The difference is that Swagger is uncompetitive and nearly every pokemon learns it. DynamicPunch is competitive because the confusion is but a side effect (albeit 100%) and has very limited distribution. There's no reason not to use DynamicPunch on No Guard Machamp for example. It's a solid STAB move that really benefits from it's ability. Swagger is used solely for hax purposes, it has no other use (yeah phazing too, but that's an indirect result of the hax because people are forced to deal with it one way or another so it's still just as uncompetitive, or in short: the hax is what forces the switches, which isn't fair play). That's been repeated quite a few times over the last 72 pages.

100% side effect = main effect. The issue here isn't the confusion itself, its the inability to counter specific monsters using the confusion due to the speed ignorance of Prankster.

No Guard Machamp does the same thing Prankster Klefki does, except No Guard Machamp does it in a single turn and with more accuracy. The only reason SwagPlay is a problem is because Prankster Klefki is ignoring speed, making it hard to counter. I'm fairly sure that Machamp players use Dynamic Punch over Cross Chop because they would much rather have the hax of Confusion than the hax of boosted crits.

If confusion caused a 100% chance of hurting yourself and skipping your turn without any hax involved, would it be more fair or less fair?

 

[TooMuchSugar]

100% side effect = main effect. The issue here isn't the confusion itself, its the inability to counter specific monsters using the confusion due to the speed ignorance of Prankster.

No Guard Machamp does the same thing Prankster Klefki does, except No Guard Machamp does it in a single turn and with more accuracy. The only reason SwagPlay is a problem is because Prankster Klefki is ignoring speed, making it hard to counter. I'm fairly sure that Machamp players use Dynamic Punch over Cross Chop because they would much rather have the hax of Confusion than the hax of boosted crits.

If confusion caused a 100% chance of hurting yourself and skipping your turn without any hax involved, would it be more fair or less fair?

I don't know if it would be more or less fair - but it would be both uncompetitive and incredibly broken. 50% confusion may or may not be broken, but it is almost as uncompetitive. Anyway, I think a ban of just Prankster + Confusion would be fine, but I don't see any reason to leave Swagger in the metagame - it doesn't seem to be doing anything productive anyway.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

100% side effect = main effect. The issue here isn't the confusion itself, its the inability to counter specific monsters using the confusion due to the speed ignorance of Prankster.

No Guard Machamp does the same thing Prankster Klefki does, except No Guard Machamp does it in a single turn and with more accuracy. The only reason SwagPlay is a problem is because Prankster Klefki is ignoring speed, making it hard to counter. I'm fairly sure that Machamp players use Dynamic Punch over Cross Chop because they would much rather have the hax of Confusion than the hax of boosted crits.

If confusion caused a 100% chance of hurting yourself and skipping your turn without any hax involved, would it be more fair or less fair?

As far as I can tell, Machamp uses Dynamic Punch more for the phasing effects of confusion than for the extra damage. The free turns help too, as no lead likes to lose a turn, but with his appalling speed, that's obviously not his primary concern. Since the primary concern is forcing switches rather forcing hax to get free turns, I can see why people consider Dynamic Punch fine while other confusion inducing moves are not.

In general though, I still think the problem is the priority, so if we outright ban swagger, we'll at least have to seriously discuss all forms of confusion.

 

[Slayer95]

I don't see any reason to leave Swagger in the metagame - it doesn't seem to be doing anything productive anyway.

A reminder of what Swagger by itself is doing/can do for the metagame.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ompetitive-in-op.3500620/page-56#post-5269302

 

[greengrappler]

I think that Swagger and confuse ray should be banned because admittedly, they make the game a matter of flipping a coin as to weather you damage the opponent or they get a subbie up. Personally, I hate swagger because it is making the game not very fun at all (mainly because of klefki having prankster substitute.) Machamp is OK with dynamic punch because I just swap in ferrothorn and he ends up dying from rockyBarbs plus machamp is slow (?) I say we either:
Ban swagger and confuse ray
Or
Ban prankster on Klefki

 

[suzugamori]

To be completely honest yes it is annoying but I disagree with the banning of swag play for a few different reasons. The first reason would have to be remember paraflinch? was it a problem? yes! did people rage? yes! what happened? nothing. Secondly we have had this combo since gen V with leopard yet it was nu so why is it a problem now? Third most people who dislike it use stall/bulk teams and depend to much on hazards and status moves over attacking. Finally the meta has shifted teams are more aggro and offensive than stall and defenisive. all in all I think we should let it have its run and go on with our lives

 

[haunter]

Ok, I was going to keep this thread open for a couple more days, but at this point it's clear to me that the discussion can only further degenerate into more nonsense. Next time we decide to post a pre-suspect discussion, I'll make sure to implement some sort of restriction to prevent users who're literally clueless from posting, turning the thread into utter garbage. Thanks to the few users who took the time to write well thought out arguments on the topic of SwagPlay. Expect a Council decision on the matter in the upcoming weeks.