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Hlelo! This is a long awaited thread ok but here goes:
Talonflame has a fairly peculiar history in SM RU, being dropped almost immediately to the tier due to stocks down after Gale Wings nerf, but was promptly booted out of the tier as beta transitioned into a standard tiering system. Talonflame, like your Venomoth and other funnies, was thus locked away for a while in bl hell.
However, RU in SM had the good idea to re-evalutate the BL after a few years, focusing on specific mons that might have a chance to survive in the tier. Reuniclus, Stakataka, Mega-Sceptile, Mega-Absol and Talonflame were thus choosen for that exercise. Out of those, only Mega-Sceptile managed to get past the council vote, but Talonflame - and later Mega-Absol - happened to have a lot of debate around it. You can read that here.
Fast forward another three years, and Talonflame is brought up again as RU geared up for another epic edition of the RU World Cup. For its fourth anniversary, chaos was favoured, with a full pool qualifiers into a random metagame to be picked following National Dex making it into RU Snake. The old arguments about Talonflame are revisited, as while it stayed ban, a non negligeable portion of the tier honestly thought it wouldn't be more than an A- mon, if even that. So a SM Talon slot is created, and you can look at the games there. And... it did seem like the pro-suspect people were right. Talonflame had a very middling time in that slot, which led to more people asking about a potential release into the tier. However, it didn't quite happen for similar reasons why the BW RU suggested suspects failed: enough players who tended to play those slots in tours expressed reluctance to change what are essentially settled metas. So while something could have been done, Talonflame was put back on the RUBL shelf for a while.
Enter now. We truly believe things are different enough that this can be explored again. ADV RU has shown great success creating something out of frankly nothing, due to the dedication of amazing users to make something possible. And frankly, there's something in it that's inspiring as our metas are becoming more and more stale with passing time, while the people expressing discontent in the past have more or less stepped away for good. And Talonflame is the most obvious starting point for this. As someone who argued fairly strongly to keep it banned during retest season, my opinion on it has definitely changed, not without some of the concerns I shared, but they truly aren't enough to keep it away, and the community deserves to see it get another chance to prove said concerns after inconclusive data. So, this thread is essentially an attempt to 1- sound out the issue and how it registers and 2- for RU to create a possible list of players that could be used as a voting base to see if Talonflame should be added back to the tier.
as one of the major proponents of freeing talon in sm, id b remiss if i aint make a post detailing why i think itd not only not be broken but a much needed positive force in the meta !
first id like 2 go over the ruwc talon suspect slot from a couple yrs back. as the op says, talon didn't put up any particularly impressive showings. not only did it barely garner much usage to begin with, which is smth u can easily attribute to ppl not havin a particular familiarity with how 2 build w it or underestimating its capabilities a la megascept, but even when talon did show up it didnt put on a particularly impressive showing reminiscent of a bl mon.
in fact, the few times it did hit the field were arguably disappointing; we're missing a couple replays from this tour that may shift the narrative a bit, but genuinely its most impactful contribution was this eifo vs lbn match where it... dies after rocks to cb panda drain in exchange for flame body & helmet chip. and even then, burned panda continues 2 put on pressure vs eifos team. the other match where talon hit the field in any significant manner is lbn v duguo, where it kinda flops into milo + aero and does a pitiable 58 to torterra w/ flare blitz before trading its life for chip on a necro. off these showings alone u cant rly argue that this mon would b a constricting influence on the tier, but id like 2 delve deeper in2 what was seen as problematic abt talon 2 begin w, why these views r pretty flawed & the positive influence n meta shifts i think itd bring 2 the tier.
during its.... extremely short stint in the tier, talons primary set that raised cause for concern was sd flyinium z stabs with either taunt, uturn or roost in the last slot. in theory, this set uses its advantage vs the likes of steel rockers like regi/meta, offensive grasses like viriz/shaymin, and choice locked fighters such as pass, bewear, and panda to provide opportunities 2 fire off an extremely polarizing +2 fly z brave bird, which allows it a massive nuke w/o incurring recoil that disables gale wings. bolstered even further by the ability to potentially get 2 priority attacks with the ensuing brave bird thanks to the z move not having recoil allowing it 2 bypass scarfer rk attempts, it was viewed as w restrictive a presence and ulitmately qbed by council vote to languish in bl hell forevermore.
however, i think the brevity of this quicktest didnt allow for enough time 4 the council 2 develop a thorough view of its impact & the realism of the optimal conditions 4 talon 2 b restrictive. we can even see this in action w a mon that occupied the tier at the time and continues 2 do so in current day (much to my chagrin), salazzle! much like talon, under purely optimal conditions lazzle's +2 acid downpour rips thru most things ud even try 2 consider fire resists, and the ability 2 run moves like protect, hp ice/grass, or knock in its last slot give it the variance 2 flip unfavorable matchups or make rking it a headache. on paper this mon is a complete nightmare 2 account for, but in practice we dont often see it bc the margin of error 4 using it is much 2 high - btwn its cardboard defenses, common weaknesses despite a solid resistance suite, underwhelming unboosted dmg, and weakness 2 rocks w no recovery, lazzle often has 2 thread multiple needles 2 get a significant amt of value in any given game & is often more trouble than its worth, especially when its most threatening set requires u use up ur valuable z move slot. despite talon's increased speed & access 2 recovery, i feel much of the same rings true 4 talons ingame presence.
compared directly 2 salazzle, talons susceptibility 2 toxic & 4x weakness to rocks are a fair trade for the ground immunity & potential priority it receives. the rock weakness in particular is a big deal in a tier where hazard control is passable, but overall exploitable which u can see in practice in the eifo lbn match linked earlier. i also emphasize that the priority is potential 4 a rsn; in order 2 take advantage of it, talon either has to use its z move as immediately as possible which makes its lines of play predictable & opens up double switch plays that r already employed vs other powerful boosting z move breakers like lazzle or viriz, or it has 2 click roost on its sd set at optimal times 2 keep its hp topped up, which prevents it from using uturn or taunt 2 present more opportunities for its teammates. if u dont use roost, however, chip of any sort permanently turns off gale wings which removes one of the primary advantages of talon 2 begin w. this leads 2 a very precarious balance that i think is not at all easy 2 maintain & relegates sd fly z talon 2 fast-paced offensive teams that dont rly exist in modern sm (more on this later). lastly, n p importantly, talon doesnt rly have access 2 covg moves that allow it 2 muscle past rock types much unlike our other fire-types. it also really needs the power from its z move to bust waters, bc otherwise the combo of recoil & mediocre attack allows them 2 sit on it rather easily, which leads me in2 my next section...
checks
p much anything that stops sd talon stops it unconditionally, w the exception of slowbro which can get smoked by +2 fly z on an unfavorable roll after rocks (guaranteed after an add'l spike). aero can potentially get pwned by fly z if talon has gale wings up, but as we alr covered thats kinda unreasonable 2 expect even if it is theoretically possible. past that, sms variety of of viable rock types serve as pretty unconditional stops to sd talon, including the likes of diancie, rhyp, and gigalith; mega amphy is also a solid check that ive seen potential in thanks 2 Denial which would only improve in value w/ talons freedom. u can theoretically use smth like natural gift liechi 2 lure diancie & rhyp w strong grass covg, but this comes at the cost of any utility picks in talons last slot, the fly z that makes talon so threatening in the first place, AND it also flails uselessly into slowbro/gigalith/amphy while making ur mu worse into offensive checks aero & ttrum... so the juice aint rly worth the squeeze. this comes in contrast 2 the aforementioned lazzle which can pull a variety of tools outta its pockets, from hidden power to knock, encore, and toxic 4 utility or even tect 2 mix potential 50/50s from scarfers.
now u may be thinking, most of these pokemon r slow or physical attackers neutered by burn, so u can exploit this by using teammates or wisp sets, right? yes, but also... not rly. talon is also p easy 2 check by simply limiting its opportunities, which i touched on earlier but will expand on a bit here. despite its respectable defensive profile, talon rly doesnt get much opportunity 2 wreak havoc due 2 subpar bulk & that oh-so-crippling rock weakness. the switchins that mons like metagross, regi, and knock mandi that sd talon seems primed 4 abusing can b easily thwarted by a well-timed toxic, which prevents talon from ever takin advantage of gale wings and puts it on a timer heavily exacerbated by its reliance on recoil moves. in fact, comin in on toxic vs regi or fat berry/protox metagross can end in sd talon failing 2 even reliably threaten them out, as its pretty paltry unboosted flare blitz doesnt prove enough of an immediate threat 2 prevent them from simply clicking an attack in its face and letting toxic + recoil + the free protect followup burn talon out.
mons like scarfgon or donphan that would traditionally provide easy switchins 2 talon can easily b teched 2 run stone edge, which does double duty of pressuring golis, forcing mandi 2 roost, and nailing nicher targets like bee or araq among other things. phan would sorely miss its coveted ice shard that pressures the multitude of fast 4x ice weaks in the tier, but i peronsally think havin a rsn 2 consider this tradeoff a good thing overall that opens up playstyle diversity (again, more on this later.) the most common grasses dont have much issue muscling thru talon, either; lo roses sludge bomb hits a devastating 85 MINIMUM w poison z obviously blowing it away, and even uninvested sludge hits it for 70 at worst, so the best case scenario is punishing a spikes click which id again argue is a positive force for the tier. viriz had plenty of rsn 2 b running stone edge 2 begin w & multiple threats that sat on dual stab synth sets, so nothin new there - except both cm and sd fight z smoke talon after rocks unlike vern, sigi, or even lazzle, so talon is arguably more disadavantaged here than our other rock weak viri checks. even dhelm steel z kos talon w rocks up, and talon doesnt resist either of the mega grass types' secondary stabs so it's not hugely favored in these situations either. the last primary target 4 talons antics would be fighting types, but sm rus fighters (bar viriz) are brimming w damage output & p much any stab non fighting move will erase talon w ease; bear double edge, croak gunk shot, panda knock all dispatch talon w/o much trouble, and as shown earlier even fighting moves will clock talon if rocks manage 2 stay up. this all leads me 2 believe that talons most consistent & prominent sets will likely end up bein flame body fly z/helm utility sets in the vein of current ru vern or sm uu crobat, which i'll explain the positive benefits of includin in the meta coming up next.
winners & losers
this section is a bit more reliant on theorymonning so i'll try n keep it more brief, but imo including talon will breathe further life into an already flourishing sm ru tier without tipping the balance presented by such a versatile & strong meta. the biggest benefit, imo, of including talon in the tier is slightly (but not entirely) loosening the grip that donphan & meta have on offensive switchins in this tier. as is, it's p extremely difficult 2 find mons w reliable offensive presence that can handle phans combination of eq/knock/shard, as most of the non passive ground resists either fold to shard (vern, gon, mscept), hate being knocked (golis, sigi), or are awk 2 include on builds consistently (bee, dhelm, megasnow). even viriz kinda struggles 2 reliably take on phan bc its often tasked w pressuring steels, checking waters, and providing a dark resist asw, leadin 2 it bein not particularly hard 2 overload - esp when u take in2 account sd sets that drop synth, it's no large feat 2 put viriz in a position where it cant rly switch in on phan in fear of being kod from around 75 min by eq -> shard, n thats b4 hazards come in2 play. meta has a similar constricting effect when it comes 2 offensive switchins, as very few mons r keen on takin its mashes head on 2 begin w, w the main suspects bein megastoise, golis, the aforementioned donphan, and.... meta itself. all its common switchins r susceptible 2 toxic & p much none of them have any recovery 2 speak of, leading 2 frequent trade wars btwn meta/phan and the rise of sets like restalk stoise.
this cluster of centralization & heavy trade focused fights lead 2 the popularity of the famed "don metapod" core (coined by urs truly); its hard 2 stray away from puttin meta(regi) golis phan on any given bulky offense team since they're the only reliable way 2 trade w themselves. if ur not usin these 3(4), u frequently end up havin 2 delve in2 potential momentum vacuums like mandi, slowbro, or restalk stoise cus nothin "faster" works v well. u can see this in practice in rupl currently; almost every team that doesnt play don metapod, metapod, don regi, or some iteration of these guys instead employs fat blobs like slowbrothers, mandi, forry, milo, or vika instead of tryna outpressure them w offensive switchins. this causes almost every match 2 b some flavor of bulky offense v bulky offense w the occasionalribombeewebs bein the only real exception. don metapod thus has the knock-on effect of weakening playstyles like sand, sun, and "true" offense/hyper offense heavily past the caveats they alr deal w, as they struggle 2 handle the combination of bulk & defensive prowess combined w hazard pressure & offensive presence that these 3(4) mons provide as a package.
enter talon. talon directly weakens both meta AND donphan without bein completely insurmountable by either mon, while also providing a defensive profile capable of takin on the threatening viriz and a speed tier 2 die 4. this opens up a lot more lanes in building & lines of play, as clicking mash w meta is no longer a near risk free play w a viable flame body user around - other helm mons like psns simply get eqd or in the case of vern mashed thru. currently the only real way 2 "punish" meta mashes r with sets like helm vikavolt, suit escav, or helm golis (cool set, use it more), but w talon in the picture meta has 2 b much more scrutinous in throwin its weight around lest it risk being burned on contact, and even dodging flame body burn still leaves talon in a position 2 taunt meta or burn it directly w wisp. this is of huge benefit 2 sand in particular, which rly appreciates talon bein a way 2 check meta+donphan that sand teams cant currently afford btwn the self chip & nerf 2 synthesis preventin mons like viriz or golis from bein recommendable picks.
talon also opens up a lane 4 fast paced offensive teams that press the gas & dont let up that r currently hugely throttled by sturdy phans ice shard + golis double prio. encouragin phan 2 use edge more often gives dd zydog/flygon more room 2 shine, and talon itself gives these teams a blistering fast setup mon the likes of which sm ru doesnt currently have access 2. this presents the ability 2 open up bulkier squads & pressure them w talons immediate presence, breaking holes for mons like cm kou, scarf drap/ttrum, or lycandusk, or uturning out 2 facilitate threats like zydog, sash rose & glalie. speakin of kou, this mon much like amphy is a big winner in the presence of talon. kou loves talon pressuring & punishing slow steels and grounds, while providing a check 2 viriz which also pains it. kou also appreciates using talon as a setup opportunity itself - tho sd blitz sets obviously put the hurt on it, mono flying sets dont rly scratch kou and can only burn it 2 negate lefties at best, providing more chances 4 it 2 play its game of whittling grounds and grasses before makin its move.
this post is gettin p long, so i wont dive 2 deep in2 the dynamics of currently less prominent mons that get shifted by talons inclusion (ie, ribombee webs takin a hit until they start usin cb aero or amphy, escav hurting a lot by losing its main niche of punishing meta on top of bein super walled by talon itself, lax also lovin the ability 2 punish meta mash & fighters). however, imo its hard 2 see a world in which talon provides anyt but a net positive 2 the tiers building dynamic - 4 every issue it presents, it solves more in equal magnitude without hugely upsetting any balance. this is evidenced by the fact that the vast majority of the teams in the ruwc talon suspect slot looked like perfectly normal teams in current sm ru - w a bit more focus on the likes of rhyp & diancie (that should arguably already b present tbh ill talk about that another time :p )
if u read all this, thanks! im quite passionate ab this tier & while i think it's alr fantastic, id love 2 see it develop in2 the best it can b & i think reincluding talon is possibly the biggest step towards this that also comes w significant support. i dunno anyt abt assigning a voter base 4 this but ill do my best 2 contribute 2 the cause of free talon
As someone who's played SM RU for awhile, even if only through things like SM RU cup, I've also dabbled on the idea of a legal SM RU Talonflame. Truthfully cyanize put it perfectly so I'll make it a bit more brief, but talon is only as strong as it seems on paper, in practice even pokemon that provide entry points like registeel or donphan can use moves that disrupt or outright eliminate talonflame like toxic, twave, or stone edge. Mega Ampharos among the other checks mentioned are already solid metagame picks that check talonflame without many strings attached, and while talon can potentially tech options like.. steel wing for diancie, such a tech is primarily a fish and doesn't solve it's issue of getting blocked by things like Rhyperior or M-Amph. Suspect tours always sometimes have a bit of skewed results as there's a direct highlight on the pokemon, which is why you saw an uptick in Rhyperiors and Diancies; and also why talonflame didn't appear as good, and while I think it's results would be a bit better overall than this tour showcased, it's something to keep in mind. Other checks like P2 and Barbaracle also exist as options that can check talon or use it as setup fodder, or things like Garbodor doing like 60% to talonflame when it doesn't use skystrike from all the recoil. Vanilluxe Hail also turning gale wings offline is also another creative means of hindering it.
That being said I wholely support the unbanning of talonflame. I don't think it's overbearing at all, it's checks are mostly ironclad even if talonflame does have a bag of tricks to beat them, like steel wing for diancie or grassium-z solar beam for rhyperior (you only need about 80 sp att invested for an ohko after rocks), but using these comes with heavy sacrifices and you still keep the flaws of being revenged killed by Pokemon like Mega-Sceptile, Scarf Noivern, Espeed Zydog, and others the moment gale wings goes offline, which is incredibly easy to force.
Overall I think talonflame has both healthy and varied checks and counters, alongside competent half-measures that can bring it down, a higher than average requirement for perfection to get the most out of it, and is naturally checked by a large handful of Pokemon. For those reasons, I'd support it being unbanned.
My view on reintroducing RUBLs into old metas is that it's only done when the RUBL tackles a problem within the tier, see DPP Latias and BW Excadrill. We could, for example, free Shuckle in ORAS RU. Will Shuckle Sticky Webs teams take over ORAS? Doubtful, as Smeargle Webs is never seen in current ORAS. So, why not add it then? Well, what would Shuckle add to the tier? It doesn't address any problems one might have with ORAS like the centralization of Venusaur, Scrafty, Scald/burn, Pursuit deciding every other game, etc. The best-case scenario is that HO, a struggling/underrepresented playstyle, is buffed with some added variety. Even "harmless" RUBLs shouldn't necessarily return if they don't positively improve the tier.
Unsurprisingly, I find the latter half of cyanize's great post far more compelling. If it was just "Talonflame isn't THAT broken, let's free it!", it wouldn't be worth bothering. SM RU is highly regarded by most who have played it, so why change it? So the question we need to figure out is "Is Talonflame effective enough of a "collateral-less" solution to the "issue" of Don MetaPod to welcome it back to SM RU?". Talonflame can't cause more problems than it solves after all. It would be unwise of us to go straight into a vote, as it likely would generate more pushback to an unban verdict. RUWC IV was brought up but a skewed player pool and a low game total make it hard to draw definite conclusions. Without anything concrete, we will devolve into theorymonning when answering our question, which isn't good tiering.
People will default to no action if there is no suspect tournament(s) to gauge interest and give more exposure to what SM RU with Talonflame would look like.
Part I: Intro
Posters have hitherto only selectively referenced replays and usage stats from RUWC 2022; the point, however, is to accurately present the data such that they can inform rather than misinform our decision-making. Such is the purpose of this essay.
As alluded to by the posts above, we decided to conduct an experiment during RUWC 2022. During this tour, we had two different SMRU slots - one regular SMRU slot and one suspect slot (SMRU + Talonflame). The idea behind this design is simple: we have two tiers that are equal in all respects but one - the presence/absence of Talonflame - hence any observable differences between the tiers can be attributed to the presence/absence of Talonflame. So, all we need to do is to gather data on SM vs SM + Talon, compare them, and then infer the effect of Talon. Then, in the final analysis, we may discuss whether these changes are for good or for bad.
Still, this leaves two important questions unanswered. First, what kind of data should we gather? Usage stats? Replay analysis? Thick description of what it is like to build and play with Talon? While each of these approaches can be fruitful, they also have distinct weaknesses. Firstly, the usage stats and replays are drawn from a small sample. Secondly, by naming the slot “SM RU + Talonflame”, we are implicitly suggesting that Talonflame is broken, thereby incentivizing people to a) use Talonflame more than what they would if the tier had a neutral name, and b) overprepare for Talonflame and thus inflate the usage of certain mons, which in turn would make Talonflame seem worse than it is. In other words, the usage stats and replays may not be representative of what a long-term Talonflame meta would look like. Alternatively, we can avoid these issues by simply asking people to describe what it was like to build and play with Talonflame, akin to what cyanize and LBN did above, but this introduces another source of bias: selective memory. We are, after all, asking people to describe what it was like to play a format that lasted for a few weeks, two years ago. In other words, while it can be useful to gather data from RUWC 2022 to study the effect of Talon, there is a significant risk of biased inferences, so the results should be interpreted with humility.
The second unanswered question is perhaps even more important: why do we want to free Talon? What effect do we want it to have? Suppose cyanize is correct that freeing Talonflame would make the dominant core of Donphan + Metagross (Registeel) + Golisopod worse and as a corollary improve hyper offense, sun, and sand; would this be a good thing? Put differently, do we want to see more of these offensive playstyles and less of classic balance and classic bulky offense? Conversely, suppose that freeing Talonflame only has a negligible effect on the tier; would this be sufficient to free it? Or does it need to have some form of impact on the tier to justify freeing it?
My tiering philosophy is as follows: I want to facilitate the creation of a format that is competitive and fun/interesting. To this end, I think a good tier should a) be centralized around a set of mons that have reliable checks and counters (to ensure that it is competitive), and b) leave room for creativity with respect to choice of play style, individual mons, sets, and items (to ensure that it is fun). Crucially, SMRU satisfies both a) and b). This has three important implications: 1) I am fine with keeping SMRU as is. 2) If Talonflame has a negligible effect on the meta, such that it remains both competitive and dynamic, I would not be opposed to freeing it. 3) Conversely, if the presence of Talonflame decentralizes the tier, for instance by improving sun, sand, and hyper offense at the expense of classic balance and bulky offense, I do not want to free it. Sure, this would increase variety even more, but it would also make it more difficult to build teams that are truly good – teams that have a decent match-up versus any given opponent – thereby making the tier less competitive.
So, how does Talon affect SMRU? To answer this question, I will analyze usage stats and replays from RUWC 2022 and describe my own experiences with playing and building in the Talon format.
Let us begin by looking at cyanize’s claims that a) SMRU is dominated by don metapod (Donphan + Metagross / Registeel + Golisopod), b) don metapod’s dominance harms sun, sand, and hyper offense, and c) Talonflame punishes don metapod, thereby improving sun, sand, and hyper offense. If these claims are correct, we would expect that Donphan, Metagross, Registeel, and Golisopod would see a very high usage in the regular SM format, whereas they would see a significant decrease in usage in SM + Talonflame. Further, we would expect that sun and sand see more usage in SMRU + Talonflame than in the regular tier.
Interestingly, the usage stats don’t perfectly reflect this. As for a), cyanize is right that don metapod is dominant: each of its members saw more than 20% usage in the regular SM slot. Yet with respect to b), we find mixed results. On the one hand, Golisopod’s usage crashed from 21.43% to 4.76% and Registeel’s usage dropped from 28.57% to 16.67%. But on the other hand, Donphan’s and Metagross’ usage were unaffected by the presence of Talonflame. In a similar vein, claim c) is only partly supported by the data. Sure, sand did indeed see more usage in the talonflame format, with Gigalith being brought three times (7.14%), compared to never being brought at all to the normal format. However, sun saw less usage in the Talonflame slot with Ninetales’ usage falling from 9.52% in SMRU (brought four times) to 4.76% in SMRU + Talonflame (brought two times). In other words, Talonflame seems to have hurt sun rather than helping it, according to usage stats.
Leaving aside cyanize’s claims, let us proceed to look at winners and losers in a broader perspective. First of all, the main benefactors of Talonflame’s entry to the tier were Talonflame itself, Rhyperior, Slowbro, Virizion (!), and Raikou. Talonflame’s usage rose from 0% to 26.19%, Rhyperior’s usage increased from 9.52% to 30.95%, Slowbro’s usage rose from 9.52% to 21.42%, Virizion’s usage increased from 11.9% to 23.81%, and Raikou’s usage increased from 9.52% to 14.29%. Conversely, the mons that suffered the most from Talonflame’s entry were Golisopod, Mandibuzz. Registeel, Sceptile, and Xatu. Golisopod’s usage crashed from 21.43% to 4.76%, Mandibuzz’ usage stooped from 28.57% to 11.9%, Registeel’s usage dropped from 28.57% to 16.67%, Sceptile’s usage decreased from 19.05% to 11.9%, and Xatu’s usage fell from 11.9% to 2.38%.
The above are the most important changes, but we also saw other smaller changes in usage. Diancie, Gigalith, Mantine, and Tyrantrum saw a moderate increase in usage, whereas Flygon and Nidoqueen saw a modest decrease in usage. More specifically, Diancie’s usage rose from 7.14% to 11.9%, Gigalith's usage increased from 0% to 7.14%, Mantine’s usage rose from 0% to 7.14%, and Tyrantrum’s usage increased from 0% to 4.76%, whereas Flygon’s usage fell from 28.57% to 23.81% and Nidoqueen’s usage decreased from 11.9% to 7.14%. Finally, we saw some other even smaller differences in usage, but these changes are so small that they’re probably just coincidental (we’re talking about mons being brought one time more/less).
TL;DR: The usage stats indicate that a Talonflame format would be similar to the present meta. The major changes include significant increases in usage for Rhyperior, Slowbro, Raikou, and Virizion, as well as significant decreases in usage for Golisopod, Mandibuzz, Registeel, Sceptile, and Xatu. Interestingly, while both Diancie, Gigalith, and Tyrantrum saw a modest increase in usage, their usage did not surge. Further, Aerodactyl’s usage remained the same, whereas Ampharos was never brought to either meta. This indicates that, rather than having an especially warping effect on the meta by forcing people to use niche mons, the introduction of Talonflame simply gave people an incentive to use some already solid mons (Slowbro, Rhyperior, Raikou, Virizion, and Talonflame itself), at the expense of some other solid mons (Golisopod, Registeel, Mandibuzz, Sceptile, and Xatu).
Part III: Replay analysis
Talonflame was brought in eleven games during RUWC 2022. Unfortunately, three of the replays were lost. We do, however, have eight replays that are available, so let us go through each of them in turn.
Game 1: Saurav vs Crossbow https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-644887
Preview: Talon has an awkward match up. It's being used on hyper offense, so it’s obvious that it’s going to be an offensive SD set, with either Fly Z, Steel Z, or Grass Z. Steel Z could dent Rhyperior for Lycan-D, while Grass Z could outright remove it, but usually Talonflame opts for the more reliable set with Fly Z.
In practice: Talon turns out to be SD Fly Z Steel Wing, which ends up being an outright liability. The only thing it does is to invite in Rhyp three times, which in turn gets to do 90% to Aero, set SR (vs a team with three SR weak mons), and kill Talon.
Saurav vs Feli https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-644393
Preview; In this game it’s not as obvious what kind of set Talon will be running. SD Talon would be pretty bad here as well, given that it ran into another Rhyperior, but a fat pivot Talon looks okay since it can punish non-water moves from Pod, Spin/Gyro from Forre, threaten out Rose, and burn Rhyp with Wisp.
In practice: Talon switches in two times (each time after a sack). The first time it threatens out Golisopod and burns Rhyp. The second time it dodges a Fire Blast from Houndoom and does 75% in return. The opponent then switches to Rhyp on the following turn, tanks the incoming BB, and kills Talon.
Crossbow vs Feli https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-642456
Preview: Talon couild be any given set on this build. SD would be terrible, given that it ran into a Gigalith, but a tanky set could punish U-turn from Flygon and any given move from Escav. It could also potentially 1v1 Noivern and Sigilyph but it depends.
In practice: Taunt Roost Talon is used to switch into Noivern, after Noivern wasted the Z-move into Slowbro. It is also used to catch Escav, before then doubling to Passimian to make progress. Beyond this, it does nothing.
Clem vs GXE https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-644475
Preview: Difficult to tell what set Talon would be. SD Fly Z has potential to kill everything if piloted right, but if it’s not Z, or if has already used it, then Vaporeon will sit on it with ease.
In practice: Offensive lefties U-turn Talon is used to get Raikou in versus Vaporeon, before then Calm Minding and removing the opposing rocker (Metagross) with a Z-move. Later in the game, Talon switches into Shaymin a couple of times and U-turns into Blastoise. In the end, however, the team ends up losing because all remaining pieces (after Virizion and Raikou go down) are walled by Vaporeon.
Btboy vs DuGuo https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-644288
Preview: Rhyperior + Heal Bell is probably the worst possible match up for Talonflame. A rogue Grassium Z could maybe snipe Rhyp, but it would have to be played well. Fat Talon could burn Rhyp and then hard switch or U-turn into Tang/Pass/Mandi but in all cases the opponent simply switchess to Florges and clicks Heal Bell. Further, if Rhyp is Toxic, then Mandi won’t even be able to keep SR off versus burned Rhyp.
In practice: Talon switches into Salazzle, takes half and a poison, and has to Roost on the following turn as Rhyp switches in. Talon then dies to Stone Edge after taunting Rhyp.
DuGuo vs LBN https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-644399
Preview: Not sure what the Talon set is. SD could potentially get in versus Tort, Rose, or Forre and make some progress, but it needs watch out for Stone Edge Tort in addition to being unable to 1v1 Aero, Milo and Necrozma. Wisp + Taunt would be bad since Milo just sits on it. A fat U-turn set looks decent, since it can switch into Tort and and Forre and pivot into Virizion versus incoming Milo or Rhyp versus Aero, but it won’t be amazing.
In practice: Talon comes in four times. First, it switches into Forre, gets 40% off on Milo, and U-turns out on incoming Aero predicting the Z-move. Next, after sacking Cress, Talon has to come in versus Rose and click Roost to stay healthy. Third, after sacking Blastoise to Rose, Talon switches in and does 35% to Aero, before having to sack Virizion. Finally, Talon switches into Torterra and trades most of its health for koing Tort. The opponent then goes into Necrozma and cleans up the game.
eifo vs LBN https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-643055
Preview: Difficult to tell on preview what set Talon will be. LBN has to watch out for SD Steel Wing Fly Z, which has the potential to clean his team. Fat Talon looks okay, since it can sort of handle Pangoro (or at least punish it with Flame Body), punish Flygon’s U-turn with Flame Body, and forces Bronzong to switch into Diancie, which it can exploit by U-turning into Metagross and clicking Mash into incoming Blastoise.
In practice: Talon switches into CB Drain from Panda with SR up and dies. However, it also gets off a Flame Body burn which ends up winning me the game. I would have been disfavored in the endgame without the burn.
eifo vs yay https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-642736
Preview: Classic don metapod feat Talon instead of Scarf Houndoom. This style relies on momentum, so we can rule out Taunt Roost BB Wisp, but it could be anything else. At first glance, SD Steel Wing looks great since it kos anything at +2. However, every mon on the opposite side could potentially OHKO it, so it will have to be careful. Likewise, a fat U-turn set would be solid, since it can punish Mash from Meta and U-turn from Flygon, but it needs to watch out for Elec Z/CB Tpunch and Stone Edge. Still, it should make yay think twice before spamming Mash/U-turn. Moreover, burning Diancie, or even luring it in to take hazards and U-turning out into Meta/Rose will be useful, given that this team hates SR and that weakening Dia will go a long way towards keeping them off.
In practice: Talon never comes out. I win the game without using it.
TL;DR: Talonflame looks better on preview than in practice. It was always possible to think of some hypothetical Talon set that could break anything at preview, but in practice we did not see a single game in which Talonflame had a dominant appearance. Set-up sets were particularly underwhelming, with both SD and Bulk Up failing to do anything in any of the games where they were brought after running into Rhyperior. In fact, based on the replays, the best set seems to be fat Flame Body Talon, since this set not only provides defensive value by punishing Knock, Turn, Mash, and functioning as a decent grass/fighting resist, but also has the ability to burn Rhyp/Aero upon switchin and U-turn out to retain momentum.
Part IV: My experiences with building and playing with Talonflame during RUWC
To begin with, Talonflame made building more difficult for me. It had several different sets that it could use, some of which had different checks, so how could I be expected to build teams that reliably answer it? For instance, what am I to do if my team relies on Slowbro/Milotic + Diancie + Scarf (Stone Edge) Flygon to answer Talonflame and I run into a Flyinium Z Steel Wing Talonflame? Or what if my Rhyperior/Aerodactyl/Tyrantrum runs into Talonflame and it gets burnt by Wisp? Worse yet, what if my Rhyperior gets sniped by a Z Solarbeam? Do I have to use Rhyperior + Heal Bell or Rest Talk Ampharos-M on every team? No, thankfully not.
As showcased by the replays, Talonflame turned out to be more manageable than I had feared, for two reasons: Firstly, the SR weakness forces the Talon user to keep SR off the field, which means that they must waste turns on removing hazards while the opponent can use those turns to make progress. Secondly, although Talon can theoretically run 10 different moves and use 4 different items, it will usually either be an offensive Gale Wings set with SD+BB+Blitz+U-turn @ Flyinium Z or a bulky Flame Body set with BB+U-turn+Roost+Taunt/Wisp/Toxic @ Helmet/Lefties/Fly Z, as these two sets perform the most consistently. Sure, it can sometimes be worth it to use lures such as SD with Steelium Z or Grassium Z, but this comes at a significant opportunity cost in that you forego the defensive utility of a Roost Talon, the ability to break fat waters such as Slowbro and Milotic with Fly Z, and the option of pivoting out with U-turn. In other words, if you do not manage to lure the Diancie/Tyrantrum/Aerodactyl with Steelium or the Rhyperior with Grassium, your Talonflame will perform rather poorly, as is evidenced by the replay in which the SD Steel Wing Talonflame flails into Rhyperior.
Still, this is not to say that Talonflame had no effect on teambuilding. Firstly, SD Talon was annoying to deal with for teams that relied on Meta/Regi + Bro/King/Milo as the switchins to flying moves, which made me opt for rock types more than I otherwise would, especially Diancie, Rhyperior, and Aerodactyl. Secondly, Flame Body Talon punishes Mash/BP/Ice Punch from Meta, Knock from Don, Seismic Toss from Registeel, First Impression/Leech Life/Knock from Golisopod, dual stab synthesis SD/CM Virizion, Drain/Knock from Toxicroak, and U-turn from pivots such as Flygon and Passimian. As a result of this, I always used a water move on Golisopod, a rock moves on Flygon, Donphan, Virizion, and Passimian, opted for Electrium Z and Explosion more often than usual on Metagross, and became slightly more reluctant to use Registeel. Apart from this, my building stayed the same. I continued to build nothing but standard balance and bulky offense, albeit with some slight tweaks. And I did so to great success, winning all but one game.
TL;DR: Talonflame punishes Knock, U-turn, Mash spam, and builds that rely on steels as flying resists, which led me to use Diancie and Rhyperior more at the expense of Registeel, while also opting for rock moves more often on Flygon, Donphan, Virizion, and Passimian, in addition to using Electrium Z and Explosion more often on Metagross.
Part V: conclusion
Whether we ought to free Talon depends on two central questions: 1) What effect do we want Talonflame to have? 2) What effect do we expect Talonflame to have? Personally, I already love SMRU, so I do not want it to change too much. A good tier, in my opinion, is a tier which is centralized around a set of mons that have reliable checks and counters, while also leaving room for creativity in the builder. SMRU is characterized by both of the above, so I do not share cyanize’s worry about the dominance of don metapod. Consequently, I would not support freeing Talonflame if, as cyanize claims, Talon would make sun, sand, and hyper offense better at the expense of classic bulky offense and balance. However, this does not seem to be the case. During RUWC 2022, sand did admittedly see a boon, but sun and hyper offense did not get any better. Most importantly, classic bulky offense and balance remained dominant, as is evidenced by Rhyperior and Slowbro’s increased usage. In the end, the main effect of Talon was to incentivize the usage of certain solid mons (Rhyperior, Slowbro, Raikou, Diancie, Tyrantrum, Aerodactyl, and Gigalith) at the expense of other solid mons (Registeel, Golisopod, Mandibuzz, Sceptile, and Xatu), and to opt for slightly different coverage moves on some other solid mons (electric/rock coverage on Meta, Don, Flygon, Pass, Viriz). Ergo, I would not be opposed to freeing Talon, but I would also be fine with keeping the format unchanged.
Addendum
Before I go, I must end this with a caveat. This analysis is founded on an inferential logic whereby I, based on the observable differences between one format (SMRU) and another format (SMRU + Talonflame), infer the effect of Talonflame. To this end, I gathered data in the form of usage stats, replay analysis, and a subjective description of what it was like to play the Talon format, before then drawing inferences based on these data. However, as you may recall, these data are flawed. Firstly, the usage stats and replays are gathered from a small sample size and from a format which had a distorting name (SMRU + Talonflame), which means that they may not be representative of what a long-term Talonflame meta would look like. Secondly, while relying on data in the form of my own subjective experiences with playing the Talon format avoids this issue, it introduces a new source of bias: selective memory. In short, there's a significant risk that the data from which my inferences are drawn are biased, and, as a result, that my inferences are biased. In other words: I may be wrong. My conclusions may be faulty. In the end, then, we are left with uncertainty, but hopefully this analysis can spur some more thought and discussion.
Thank you to my friend cyanize for inspiring this post and for reminding me to add the caveat at the end.
For all SM RU enthusiasts in the chat, RUtube recently published a video focusing on Talonflame and its potential impact in SM RU. Overall, the reception seems to be pretty positive but if you want to hear their thoughts in detail feel free to watch the video! Shoutouts to all our commentators Denial, eifo, EviGaro, cyanize, and odr for their time and effort making this video!
Looks like there has been a considerable number of supports for unbanning Talonflame. Therefore we will be conducting a suspect test for Talonflame.
You will automatically qualify to vote if you meet any of the following criteria:
At least 3 games AND 1 win in RUPL 2024, 2023, and 2022.
At least 2 SM RU wins in SMPL II
Top 8 of SM RU Cup VII and VIII (2024 and 2023)
In addition to this, we will be hosting a SM RU + Talonflame tour in the RU forums, depending on signups the top 4 will also qualify for the voting. We will also have an additional of 6 suspect live tours, where the winner will receive the voting requirements. (Unrequired due to having a large voting pool)
Yes, this means that the voting will not be starting until at least 4-5 weeks from now, but we want everyone to participate and see how the metagame changes in practice, and giving more opportunities for people to vote is always a good thing!
