OU Talonflame (Natural Gift)

horyzhnz

horyzhnz

[10:02:17 AM] flcl: its hory xD
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Swords Dance + Natural Gift
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name: Swords Dance + Natural Gift
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Natural Gift
move 3: Brave Bird
move 4: Flare Blitz
ability: Gale Wings
item: Liechi Berry / Salac Berry
evs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========
Natural Gift allows Talonflame to beat its usual counters with the appropriate Berry, which can open up the way for a sweep. Swords Dance is used to bolster the power of Talonflame's attacks, allowing it to OHKO Tyranitar and Quagsire with Natural Gift and to bring Heatran and Rotom-W into the KO range of Brave Bird. Brave Bird and Flare Blitz are both powerful STAB attacks, getting great coverage together.

Set Details
========
A Jolly nature with the given EV spread is used to outspeed Timid Thundurus and KO it with Flare Blitz if it switches into a Brave Bird, taking advantage of the fact that this particular Talonflame set is not Choice-locked. The EV spread also enables Talonflame to outpace Choice Scarf Tyranitar, preventing it from revenge killing Talonflame. Depending on which Berry is used, Talonflame can beat a few of its checks with Natural Gift; Liechi Berry hits Rotom-W and Quagsire with a Grass-type move, while Salac Berry hits Tyranitar and Heatran with a Fighting-type move.

Usage Tips
========
Talonflame won't be as strong as its standard Choice Band set; this set is more to lure in and remove or weaken Talonflame's standard checks and sweep once they are removed. Bluff the Choice Band set and avoid revealing the Berry so opponents don't switch out. Set up Swords Dance on Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Scizor that Talonflame can force out. Entry hazards should be removed to bring Talonflame in unscathed since it might be forced to consume the Berry if it reaches low HP; this is something to watch out for if using Brave Bird before Natural Gift has been used. Be sure that Rotom-W is weakened before you use Natural Gift, otherwise it can survive even a +2 hit and KO back. Try to avoid Knock Off, because removing Talonflame's Berry effectively wastes a moveslot and an item.

Team Options
========
Slow U-turn and Volt Switch users are good teammates, as they allow Talonflame to come in without taking prior damage; examples of those include Mega Scizor, Gliscor, Raikou, and Rotom-W. Defoggers and spinners such as Mandibuzz, Excadrill, and Latios make good partners, as losing 50% of its HP upon switching in is very detrimental to Talonflame. Other physical setup sweepers that benefit from Rotom-W and company removed, such as Azumarill, Mega Scizor, Mega Charizard X, and Dragonite, are also great teammates to exploit the holes left behind by Talonflame. Stealth Rock setters such as Hippowdon and Tyranitar are also appreciated, mostly to wear down Heatran and Rotom-W and bring them into the KO range of +2 Natural Gift. Mega Pinsir works well with Liechi Berry Talonflame, as the two weaken and potentially KO each other's checks with their respective coverage moves. Latios is a great partner for Salac Berry Talonflame, as Talonflame can remove Tyranitar and Heatran which trouble Latios, while Latios can handle Rotom-W and Quagsire relatively well.

SD + Natural Gift
########
name: SD + Natural Gift
move 1: Natural Gift
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Brave Bird
move 4: Flare Blitz
ability: Gale Wings
item: Liechi Berry / Salac Berry
evs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
nature: Adamant

Moves
========
- Natural Gift hits usual counters!
- Swords Dance boosts Attack; Natural Gift won't actually do that much without a boost
- Brave Bird is better in case you don't end up needing to use Natural Gift, and is more powerful in general
- Flare Blitz for another strong STAB hit

Set Details
========
- Simple EV spread and nature for a physical attacker
- Liechi Berry makes Natural Gift a 100 BP Grass-type move; hits Rotom-W and bulky Waters
- Salac Berry makes Natural Gift a 100 BP Fighting-type move; hits Heatran and Tyranitar
- Liechi Berry can also raise Talonflame's Attack if it gets low enough through Brave Bird recoil
- Gale Wings because Gale Wings
- Jolly nature and a 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe spread is used to outspeed Timid Thundurus and KO it with Flare Blitz if it switches into a Brave Bird, taking advantage of the fact that this particular Talonflame set is not Choice-locked

Usage Tips
========
- Talonflame won't be as strong as its standard Choice Band set; this set is more to lure in and remove or weaken Talonflame's standard checks and sweep once they are removed
- Bluff the Choice Band set and avoid revealing the berry so opponents don't switch out
- Set up Swords Dance on Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Scizor that it can force out
- Remove entry hazards and bring Talonflame in unscathed (after something is KOed, or use a slow U-turn / Volt Switch) since it might be forced to consume the berry if it reaches low HP; this is something to watch out for if using Brave Bird before Natural Gift has been used
- Make sure the target is not running a Choice Scarf set, since they will outspeed and OHKO
- +2 Natural Gift will bring standard Rotom-W and Heatran into range of being finished off by Brave Bird, while it OHKOs Tyranitar (Salac) and Quagsire (Liechi)
- Be sure that Rotom-W in particular is weakened before you use Natural Gift, otherwise it can live even a +2 hit and KO back
- Keep it away from Knock Off, since removing the berry kinda destroys the main point of this set

Team Options
========
- Slow U-turn and Volt Switch users; Mega Scizor, Gliscor, Raikou, your own Rotom-W
- Defoggers and spinners to keep Stealth Rock off the field; Excadrill, Togekiss, Latios, Mandibuzz
- Other primarily physical setup sweepers that benefit from Rotom-W and company removed; Azumarill, Mega Scizor, Mega Charizard X, Dragonite
- Stealth Rock setters, primarily to wear down Heatran and Rotom-W and bring them into range of being KOed by +2 Natural Gift
- Mega Pinsir works well with the Liechi set, weakening each other's checks and potentially KOing them with their respective coverage moves
- Latios is a great partner for the Salac set, as Talonflame can remove Tyranitar and Heatran which trouble Latios, while Latios can handle Rotom-W and Quagsire relatively well
 
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Seperate sets dont need overview, oo or C+C

Also Liechi does a massive chunk to Ttar so you dont Salac to do ko.
Mention main difference is Liechi hits Rotom-W+Ttar and Salac hits Tran and KOs Ttar so it depends on what your team has the most trouble with

+2 252+ Atk Liechi Berry Talonflame Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 236-278 (58.4 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
30-40 isnt too hard too chip
0/0 Ttar has a 70% chance to be KOd
 
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no acro please, way too weak especially if it hasn't consumed its berry.

emphasize the lure aspect of the set, luring rotom/quag/ttar or ttar/tran is the biggest reason to even use an sd set like this.
 
That AND I would argue that Liechi has the convenient side effect of raising your attack at low percentages - with enough BB recoil if you don't happen to need Natural Gift you get a free attack boost. It's pretty situational but still more useful than a weak acrobatics.

The set names should be the same, too.
 
"- Salac Berry can also raise Talonflame's Attack if it gets low enough through Brave Bird recoil"

Thought you might wanna fix that to Talonflame's Speed instead of Attack or switch Salac Berry to Liechi Berry.
 
In team options, you'll want to mention more attackers that benefit from having the aforementioned targets gone. Dragon Dance Dragonite, Mega Charizard X, etc., basically any boosting physical sweeper.

Add something in Usage Tips about when to use Natural Gift. For example, if the opponent has a healthy Rotom-W, you don't want to be attacking right away (even at +2) because Rotom-W can live the hit and KO back with either of its STABs. Weaken Rotom-W first. Add a Stealth Rock setter to team options since it affects both Heatran and Rotom-W and helps you achieve a clean OHKO after a few rounds of hazard damage.

Fix all of that and QC 1/3
 
I think you could mention a spread with a Jolly nature and 136 Speed as it allows you to outspeed Thundurus (and to Flare Blitz it), which I think is pretty valuable for any Talonflame set that is not choiced (because when they see that you did Brave Bird, they might assume that you're locked, it would be very sad to be forced to switch-ou/die to a Thunderbolt when you lured something successfully).
Flare Blitz can kill after SR with a maximum roll, but the Thundurus will probably die to the Life Orb recoil anyway.
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 192-226 (64.2 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I also believe that the best mate for a Salac set is Latios given the pokemons it is meant to surprise kill and the ones it does not surprise kill.
Pinsir is always a great mate for the Liechi one, they weaken each other's checks while their coverage moves allow them to potentially kill what walls their partner (Heatran's possible balloon will get pop'd by Talonflame, Rotom-W can be lured, Bulky Grounds will be weakened, Thundurus can be lured by Flare Blitz, Manectric won't like switching into too many Flying moves etc etc).

I hope it helped.
 
Thanks Rey, implemented all your suggestions. The Jolly spread I put in provides an SR number, and although it probably won't matter because recoil and such, I guess you can hit more things before going down to recoil. Anyway, ready for check numero dos
 
i think that the jolly spread with HP should be the main set. having the luxury of outspacing thundurus is huge when it is so ubiquitous in the current metagame and switches into check talonflame many a time.

you seem to downplay liechi's damage against tyranitar -- it still does a good chunk at +2

mention pokemon that you can set up on often: ferrothorn, skarmory, scizor come to mind.

1/3
 
*2/3

+2 Natural Gift will bring standard Rotom-W and Heatran into range of being finished off by Brave Bird, while it OHKOs Tyranitar (Salac) and Quagsire (Liechi)
Click to expand...
how should I change that for the liechi point?

added all changes, written, ready for no3
 
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since you're already running Jolly, and the main reason to run this set is to lure for Pinsir, run 365 speed (176 evs, 80 left in HP) for the surprise KOs on ScarfTar (after rocks) and Raikou, obviously mention what this spread does in your description.

3/3
 
horyzhnz

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Swords Dance + Natural Gift (lol I would also swap moves 1 and 2 if I were you)
########
name: Swords Dance + Natural Gift
move 1: Natural Gift
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Brave Bird
move 4: Flare Blitz
ability: Gale Wings
item: Liechi Berry / Salac Berry
evs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========

Natural Gift allows Talonflame to beat its usual counters with the appropriate Berry, which can open up the way for a sweep. Swords Dance is used to bolster the power of Talonflame's attacks, allowing it to OHKO Tyranitar and Quagsire with Natural Gift at +2 and to bring Heatran and Rotom-W into the KO range of Brave Bird. Brave Bird and Flare Blitz are both powerful STAB attacks, getting great coverage together.

Set Details
========
A Jolly nature with the given EV spread is used to let Talonflame outspeed Timid Thundurus and KO it with Flare Blitz if it switches into a Brave Bird, taking advantage of the fact that this particular Talonflame set is not Choice-locked. The EV spread also enables Talonflame to outpace Choice Scarf Tyranitar, preventing a revenge kill. Depending on which Berry is used, Talonflame can beat a few of its checks with Natural Gift; Liechi Berry hits Rotom-W and Quagsire with a Grass-type move, while Salac Berry hits Tyranitar and Heatran with a Fighting-type move.

Usage Tips
========
Talonflame won't be as strong as its standard Choice Band set; this set is more to lure in and remove or weaken Talonflame's standard checks and sweep once they are removed. Bluff the Choice Band set and avoid revealing the Berry so opponents don't switch out. Set up Swords Dance on Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Scizor that Talonflame can force out. Entry hazards should be removed to bring Talonflame in unscathed, as it might be forced to consume the Berry if it reaches low HP; this is something to watch out for if using Brave Bird before Natural Gift has been used. Be sure that Rotom-W in particular is weakened before you use Natural Gift, otherwise it can survive even a +2 hit and KO back. Try to avoid Knock Off, because having Talonflame's Berry removed effectively wastes a moveslot and an item.

Team Options
========
Slow U-turn and Volt Switch users are good teammates, as they allow Talonflame to come in without taking prior damage; examples include Mega Scizor, Gliscor, Raikou, and Rotom-W. Defoggers and spinners such as Mandibuzz, Excadrill, and Latios that can keep Stealth Rock off the field make good partners, as losing 50% of its HP to Stealth Rock upon switching in is very detrimental to Talonflame. Other physical setup sweepers that benefit from Rotom-W and company removed, (AC) such as Azumarill, Mega Scizor, Mega Charizard X, and Dragonite, (AC) are also great teammates to exploit the holes left behind by Talonflame. Stealth Rock setters such as Hippowdon and Tyranitar are also appreciated, primarily to wear down Heatran and Rotom-W and bring them into the KO range of +2 Natural Gift. Mega Pinsir works well with Liechi Berry Talonflame, as the two weaken and potentially KO each other's checks with their respective coverage moves. Latios is a great partner for Salac Berry Talonflame, as Talonflame can remove Tyranitar and Heatran for Latios, while Latios can handle Rotom-W and Quagsire relatively well.
GP 1/2
 
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hi
Swords Dance + Natural Gift
########
name: Swords Dance + Natural Gift
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Natural Gift
move 3: Brave Bird
move 4: Flare Blitz
ability: Gale Wings
item: Liechi Berry / Salac Berry
evs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========
Natural Gift allows Talonflame to beat its usual counters with the appropriate Berry, which can open up the way for a sweep. Swords Dance is used to bolster the power of Talonflame's attacks, allowing it to OHKO Tyranitar and Quagsire with Natural Gift and to bring Heatran and Rotom-W into the KO range of Brave Bird. Brave Bird and Flare Blitz are both powerful STAB attacks, getting great coverage together.

Set Details
========
A Jolly nature with the given EV spread is used to outspeed Timid Thundurus and KO it with Flare Blitz if it switches into a Brave Bird, taking advantage of the fact that this particular Talonflame set is not Choice-locked. The EV spread also enables Talonflame to outpace Choice Scarf Tyranitar, preventing ait from revenge killing Talonflame. Depending on which Berry is used, Talonflame can beat a few of its checks with Natural Gift; Liechi Berry hits Rotom-W and Quagsire with a Grass-type move, while Salac Berry hits Tyranitar and Heatran with a Fighting-type move.

Usage Tips
========
Talonflame won't be as strong as its standard Choice Band set; this set is more to lure in and remove or weaken Talonflame's standard checks and sweep once they are removed. Bluff the Choice Band set and avoid revealing the bBerry so opponents don't switch out. Set up Swords Dance on Pokemon likesuch as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Scizor that Talonflame can force out. Entry hazards should be removed to bring Talonflame in unscathed asince it might be forced to consume the bBerry if it reaches low HP; this is something to watch out for if using Brave Bird before Natural Gift has been used. Be sure that Rotom-W in particular is weakened before you use Natural Gift, otherwise it can survive even a +2 hit and KO back. Try to avoid Knock Off, because removing Talonflame's bBerry effectively wastes a moveslot and an item.

Team Options
========
Slow U-turn and Volt Switch users are good teammates, as they allow Talonflame to come in without taking prior damage; examples of those include Mega Scizor, Gliscor, Raikou, and Rotom-W. Defoggers and spinners such as Mandibuzz, Excadrill, and Latios make good partners, as losing 50% of its HP upon switching in is very detrimental to Talonflame. Other physical setup sweepers that benefit from Rotom-W and company removed, such as Azumarill, Mega Scizor, Mega Charizard X, and Dragonite, are also great teammates to exploit the holes left behind by Talonflame. Stealth Rock setters such as Hippowdon and Tyranitar are also appreciated, primarimostly to wear down Heatran and Rotom-W and bring them into the KO range of +2 Natural Gift. Mega Pinsir works well with Liechi Berry Talonflame, as the two weaken and potentially KO each other's checks with their respective coverage moves. Latios is a great partner for Salac Berry Talonflame, as Talonflame can remove Tyranitar and Heatran, which trouble Latios, while Latios can handle Rotom-W and Quagsire relatively well.
gp 2/2
 
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I really do like this set, although I do think that the situation(s) needed for this to be extremely effective is/are chancy [as in they are inconsistently seen in the meta], but it does cover Talonflame's weaknesses pretty well. All in all a great idea and post!
 
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