I give my Adamant Talonflame 176 speed EVs which allows it to outspeed Thundurus-T so as to hit it with Flare Blitz. Though outspeeding Excadrill is the most important benchmark IMO, this spread also outspeeds Jirachi and Genesect which could be useful..
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Pokémon Talonflame
- Thread starter TaBuu
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Totally not true, out of my personal experience investing into speed is much more useful than a few extra HP points, the recoil hurts a little more and you lose some bulk but Talonflame isn't supposed to take hits anyway since it gets 2HKOd even from resisted attacks and the 63 extra HP won't buffer that much recoil. Meanwhile outspeeding Key targets like Thundurus, Mega-Pinsir and especially Excadrill can and will decide matches. Many people say that speed isn't that important anymore since there is so much priority, but having the fastest priority (outside of E-Speed) is one of Talonflames biggest selling points.
"this spread also outspeeds Jirachi and Genesect which could be useful.."
Lol what, outspeeding Genesect ? Most of them run Choice Scarf, I personnaly won't take the risk to take an Thunderbolt OHKO.
Frankly Sword Dance I think is a must, with his typing he can actually set up well (each scizor -> Sword Dance), or against the usual pokemons which you know are going to protect (like Aegislash's King Shield). And it helps the pretty low 80 Attack stat Talon haves.
Lol what, outspeeding Genesect ? Most of them run Choice Scarf, I personnaly won't take the risk to take an Thunderbolt OHKO.
Frankly Sword Dance I think is a must, with his typing he can actually set up well (each scizor -> Sword Dance), or against the usual pokemons which you know are going to protect (like Aegislash's King Shield). And it helps the pretty low 80 Attack stat Talon haves.
CB Talonflame + CB Staraptor is absolutely amazing! It's the new DragMag, only that it's way easier to sweep if you can keep SR off the field for long enough. Packing both a Defog user and a Rapid Spiner is not a bad idea, as well as a solid Rotom-W and Aegislash check, but other than that, this core fucking wrecks. I would post more, but words are not needed. Use it a few times and you will see...
Not all Genesect run Choice Scarf and it's not that difficult to work out what item it has, damage alone can usually provide the answer unless they bluff a Choice Scarf by using Expert Belt or something like that. You take this risk against any reasonably fast poke, even the Jirachi/Excadrill I mentioned could have a choice scarf (or Sand Rush in Excadrill's case). As I said, outspeeding Genesect is a useful byproduct of the EV spread, not the main purpose.
Swords Dance is an option but you have to give up moves like Roost or U-Turn which have a lot of utility. It depends on your team.
Interesting calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 40.3 - 47.4%
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 41.8 - 49.4%
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 42.6 - 50.2%
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 40.3 - 47.4%
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 41.8 - 49.4%
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 42.6 - 50.2%
Seems like your problem is with priority, not just talonflame. But I am sure you realize that talonflame is far from the only priority user. You could pretty much make the same argument for Azumarill and Scizor.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 838-987 (438.7 - 516.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 577-679 (302 - 355.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 424-501 (221.9 - 262.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
notice how smogonbird is nearly 50% stronger than scizor and nearly 200% percent stronger than azumarill
In fairness (not that I agree with banning or anything), Talonflame's priority hits harder than non-boosted Azu or Scizor and Flying is a fantastic attacking type, since the only thing that resists both STABs is Rock. How many viable Rock-types are there? Terrakion (neutral to Flying) and Tyranitar?
Most things that run Rock coverage can't afford to take the Brave Bird. still, it's a serious threat, but I have a hard time seeing a relatively-frail 81 base attack Pokemon with 4x SR weakness as banworthy. More likely, it'll simply have the same effect that SR has had since its inception: between Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, Flying weakness will just be seen as a potentially-serious liability just as the very same typing was enough to land a special-attacking monster like Moltres in RU.
To be fair, Talonflame has the strongest instant priority by a significant margin. Azumarill and Scizor can't really compare. That said, the argument for banning Talonflame is rather weak. By that logic, Endeavor Aron is the most broken thing ever, because OMG IT TOTALLY BYPASSES ALL 6 STATS.
edit: double greninja'd on the strongest priority thing
Couldnt agree more. Im pretty sure outclassing and beating most scarfers isnt a good enough reason to ban it. This just means scarfs are less needed and/or less useful. The same could be said for stall... there is no way a stall team can beat clefable. OMG CLEFABLE WRECKS A WHOLE PLAYSTYLE. Lets ban it? No. Thats NOT how competitive pokemon works, im sorry.
Its the same thing about complex bans.
" Lets allow mewtwo with only <60 BP moves? He is balanced that way!" No.
"Lets ban X Y and Z pokemons so that F strategy is now viable?" No.
Whoever used Talonflame knows, that you don't need much prediction while using it. As if, Gale Wing Brave Bird isn't already an impressive priority with its high power, it although hits everything for at least not very effective damage.
I'm gonna echo this sentiment, Staraptor is one of the greatest partners for Talonflame right now. I threw together a team of Talonflame/Staraptor/Mandibuzz/Landorus-T/Rotom-W/Scizor and they really are just extremely effective at weakening each other's checks (similar to Rayquaza + Salamence in Ubers last gen)
252 atk/176 spd to outrun m-pinsir, dump the rest in whatever you'd like
In hit points. Always in hit points.
I use this and I've been having great success with it :) People don't expect a Wil-o-wisp on talonflame but it really helps sometimes ^.^
Talonflame @ Sitrus Berry
Adamant
252 ATK/ 252 SPE/ 4 HP
Acrobatics(After a Sitrus Berry it does massive damage. Sitrus is also helpful if you can't spin/defog away rocks)
Swords Dance
Wil-O-Wisp
U-Turn
Talonflame @ Sitrus Berry
Adamant
252 ATK/ 252 SPE/ 4 HP
Acrobatics(After a Sitrus Berry it does massive damage. Sitrus is also helpful if you can't spin/defog away rocks)
Swords Dance
Wil-O-Wisp
U-Turn
I really hope that talonflame does not end up getting the ban hammer. Problem with Talonflame is that it only has 81 base attack and in ubers that simply is not going to cut it because ubers is such a bulky tier and it is just too frail to even survive in that tier. Yes it has the most powerful priority in the game and yes this thing can destroy unprepared teams, but really it has a load of counters. Rotom Wash is a big one because that is a pokemon already prevalent in OU and it is already a good pokemon in its own right, and also Talonflame really can't do much to heatran either. And Talonflame's most powerful attacking moves both let it die easier to recoil. Also I have found that pretty much any physical wall that is not weak to Talonflame's stab do a good job of checking it as well because without choice band or boosts Talonflame is really not going to be doing much to any bulky physically defensive pokemon that are not weak to its stab moves. I have found that Slowbro and Hippowdon do surprisingly well against Talonflame. Also Mega ampharos doesn't give a damn about what Talonflame does and Mega manectric and jolteon can always outspeed and kill it with thunderbolt although they are only checks because they won't appreciate a flare blitz.
With every new generation we are going to get new threats and every time a new pokemon establishes itself as a threat than people always ask for the ban hammer. Its not like Talonflame does not have any counters because it does. Seriously if Talonflame got banned, then you may as well ban half the pokes in OU as well just for being threats.
Because of how strong the tier is, No matter how you make your team, there will always be a threat in OU that can literally tear your team apart. I have honestly found that weakness policy Dragonite is so much more dangerous. Unlike talonflame that thing is bulky especially with multiscale and if it manages to activate its weakness policy and set up a Dragon dance than its pretty much GG. Even Choice banded Dragonite is really dangerous because a lot of teams do not actually expect it and are not prepared for it and CB extremespeed hurts. I have actually swept more teams with Dragonite than with Talonflame yet that thing is not even close to being talked about as a potential suspect for testing.
With every new generation we are going to get new threats and every time a new pokemon establishes itself as a threat than people always ask for the ban hammer. Its not like Talonflame does not have any counters because it does. Seriously if Talonflame got banned, then you may as well ban half the pokes in OU as well just for being threats.
Because of how strong the tier is, No matter how you make your team, there will always be a threat in OU that can literally tear your team apart. I have honestly found that weakness policy Dragonite is so much more dangerous. Unlike talonflame that thing is bulky especially with multiscale and if it manages to activate its weakness policy and set up a Dragon dance than its pretty much GG. Even Choice banded Dragonite is really dangerous because a lot of teams do not actually expect it and are not prepared for it and CB extremespeed hurts. I have actually swept more teams with Dragonite than with Talonflame yet that thing is not even close to being talked about as a potential suspect for testing.
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Specs rotom-w, it's very common
This set is probably very similar to a lot of the ones out there but the item sets it apart slightly and it's an idea that I'm surprised nobody has thought of yet.
Item:Sitrus berry
EVs:4hp/252atk/252spe
Adamant nature
Move 1: Acrobatics
Move 2: Roost
Move 3: Flare blitz
Move 4: Bulk up/Swords dance/U-turn/Steel wing (lawl steel wing)
It allows Talonflame to run Acrobatics while still letting it hold an item that actually does something. The 4hp EVs are there to make Talonflame's hp odd so its Sitrus berry will activate if you switch it in on rocks (please try not to). You can put some more of the speed into hp but try and make its hp odd because ^^^^. Acrobatics is here instead of brave bird because of the lack of an item (at least until sitrus berry is gone). Roost is there for recovery which Talonflame appreciates a lot especially with its stealth rock weakness. Flare blitz is there for a fire type STAB. The last move is just filler so I listed a whole bunch of moves that are good on Talonflame, personally I use Bulk up but you can really use anything here.
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A good partner for Talonflame is Excadrill, because all of Talonflame's counters are weak to Mold Breaker Earthquake. Excadrill can also keep rocks off the field fairly easily.
The problem with Talonflame is that it's so weak. Even a banded set can't beat the bulky mons that currently dominate the metagame. It was great when the gen 6 metagame first started, but it currently can't do much on its own.
Also talonflame is the sole reason behind the rise of rotom-wash, so we can blame it for that too.
Also talonflame is the sole reason behind the rise of rotom-wash, so we can blame it for that too.
When you run max Speed on Talonflame, just be sure to remain Adamant, unless you really want to outpace such foes as Jolly Mega Absol. The minimum amount of Speed an offensive Talonflame wants is 208 since it outspeeds Jolly Mega Pinsir, but since that is not so far from max Speed anyway, and the fact that 48 HP EVs (+12 HP) won't often be making much difference in taking recoil. There is still no good reason to run Jolly Talonflames though; they are probably paranoid of Water Shuriken Greninjas.
That's not a reason: the site takes into account the moves and item, then sorts out the EVs accordingly, but does not take into account the Pokemon in question, essentially stereotyping sets onto Pokemon. They already have predetermined spreads for each set (Choiced, mixed, bulky...) and just slap it onto the Pokemon in question. The calculator may present you with a Rash / Quiet Aegislash when you wanted the other (I haven't actually tried this so I don't know what nature they'd suggest). The calculator may present you with 252 Spe (possibly Jolly!) Cloyster when it never needs that many EVs in Speed. Best of all, most of the spreads tend to put 4 HP EVs on certain SR weak Pokemon, like Thundurus and Charizard, when it isn't beneficial for them.There's no good reason to run Jolly.
There is a reason though:
Keep in mind I am referring to players who consider reason(s) to actually run Jolly on Talonflame, not pure ladder noobs who just blindly paste whatever EV spread is layed out before them without bothering to question whether it is excessive.
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