Pokémon Tapu Lele

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Or use them yourself and reinvent Birdspam. :P
MegaGross' Zen Headbutt is the same base power as Reckless HJK from Mienshao thanks to Lele. Just, you know, no huge detriment if miss/Protect and far bulkier / faster / stronger lol.
Physical bulk on Lele is a shame though, it almost makes me want to run a Bold set ._.
Or, if and when Mega Diancie or Mega Gardevoir get released, Fairy spam with Tapu Lele via support from Magearna and one of those wall-breaking Mega Fairies (note: nothing is immune to Fairy)...*shudders*

Also, I'm trying to decide Modest or Timid. For a Life Orb set, would Timid be the go-to? And it seems people are foregoing Focus Blast now for HP Fire and T-Bolt, right? So something like

- Psychic / Psyshock
- Moonblast
- HP Fire
- Thunderbolt / Aromatherapy / Taunt

I really like Aromatherapy to help balanced teams. Viable offensive clerics in OU that can force enough switches to use their healing move are insanely rare.
 
Just presenting the argument for banning it, not saying I agree.

Wait, so, if its counters are down, it can sweep? Excuse me while I call cnn to report this clear and present danger to our nation
I said resists not counters. Tapu Lele's only counter is Celesteela. It can sweep without clearing psychic resists, but not as easily.
 
Just presenting the argument for banning it, not saying I agree.



I said resists not counters. Tapu Lele's only counter is Celesteela. It can sweep without clearing psychic resists, but not as easily.
I that you missed the point of what he was saying. Almost every strong pokemon sweeps if the resists and counters are taken care of. Therefore your point serves no purpose.
 
Our goal in life*
Going by the OP I'm assuming Modest is the nature of choice in 95% of sets?
What does modest scarf beat that timid scarf can't?

Just did some basic calcs for the things Tapu Lele struggles against:

Timid: 252 SpA Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 204-240 (57.9 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Modest: 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 224-264 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Timid: 252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Celesteela: 156-184 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Modest: 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Celesteela: 170-202 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Timid: 252 SpA Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Modest: 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 178-210 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Conversely, timid outspeeds Jolly Pheromosa (obvs a huge threat), Timid Mega Alakazam, Jolly Mega Aerodactyl, +1 Adamant Mega Charizard X, +2 Modest Magearna (not a check regardless), +1 Kommo-o, Scarf Kyurem-Black (outspeeds Adamant, ties with Jolly), +1 Adamant Mega Sharpedo etc
Our goal in life*
Going by the OP I'm assuming Modest is the nature of choice in 95% of sets?
I'm pretty well set into timid because of these Calcs that Nintendome did
 
252 Speed is unneccesary on the Choice Scarf build. The nature should be Timid. Tapu Lele gets a clean kill on everything with a weakness to Psychic or Fairy, but it needs the speed to outspeed Pheromosa (the highest speed in the format without Choice Scarf). 176 HP with a positive nature allow it to outspeed max speed Naive Pheromosa. The rest of the points should go to HP. As for attack choices, HP Fire is horrible and it does nothing because who on their right mind is going to switch in Scizor against a clearly faster Tapu Lele? Only idiots. Shadow Ball is better thanks to the prominence of Alolan Marowak that otherwise entirely walls Tapu Lele.
http://prntscr.com/dje0nz
Tapu Lele has horrible physical defense. Mega Scizor has Bullet Punch boosted by Technician. Tapu Lele is weak to steel, specifically Bullet Punch if at all.

252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 306-360 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Honestly, idiots are the ones who have the mind to think HP Fire covers for Scizor.
 
http://prntscr.com/dje0nz
Tapu Lele has horrible physical defense. Mega Scizor has Bullet Punch boosted by Technician. Tapu Lele is weak to steel, specifically Bullet Punch if at all.

252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 306-360 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Honestly, idiots are the ones who have the mind to think HP Fire covers for Scizor.
Tapu Lele is immune to Bullet Punch unless the Psychic Terrain is not up for some reasons.
 
Non-Specs Timid Tapu Lele can be checked by Sp. Def Bronzong which can even switch into Shadow Ball, survive another one and OHKO back with Gyro Ball with no attack investment as I've shown in the link below. Life Orb Modest has a 37.5% chance to kill it if it switches into Shadow Ball, which isn't something confortable to be at anyway. HP Fire will be worse of course.
So in general Sp. Def Bronzong can be a good check to Lele if you don't mind losing a big part of its HP (if Shadow Ball is present).

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tapu-lele.3587200/page-2#post-7113182
 
I'm pretty well set into timid because of these Calcs that Nintendome did
Hmm, not bad. I hardly ever see an actual case for a +speed Scarf mon beyond Machamp, lol. Modest does get extra chip damage but Pheromosa is such a bitch.
For non-Scarf sets (Specs, LO) is Timid still the best way to go? I want to SR one later but I'm not devoted to one set here.
 
Non-Specs Timid Tapu Lele can be checked by Sp. Def Bronzong which can even switch into Shadow Ball, survive another one and OHKO back with Gyro Ball with no attack investment as I've shown in the link below. Life Orb Modest has a 37.5% chance to kill it if it switches into Shadow Ball, which isn't something confortable to be at anyway. HP Fire will be worse of course.
So in general Sp. Def Bronzong can be a good check to Lele if you don't mind losing a big part of its HP (if Shadow Ball is present).

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tapu-lele.3587200/page-2#post-7113182
Is it the only check for Tapu Lele in general?

Is there other pokemon that justify a Bronzong?

(I also want to mention that due to the trend of not using the respective moves, a ban could possibly make Psychic the Terrain version of Sun in terms of OU viability)
 
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Hmm, not bad. I hardly ever see an actual case for a +speed Scarf mon beyond Machamp, lol. Modest does get extra chip damage but Pheromosa is such a bitch.
For non-Scarf sets (Specs, LO) is Timid still the best way to go? I want to SR one later but I'm not devoted to one set here.
I run timid with 224 speed to outspeed scarfed Landorus-T.
 
So what's the counterplay for going around Lele? My current idea is to create an anti lele core revolving around a bulky spdef pokemon that resists moonblast (my current pokemon for this is nihilego) and a pokemon that resists psychic (e.g. pursuit trapper alola muk). But all im really doing is forcing an unfavorable 50/50 for myself that eventually chips away at my team. In otherwords I dont think my idea is very good at all.

As tapu lele users what Mon/strategies do you fear? Am
i on the right track with my idea or am i a moron that doesnt know how to play pokemon? Please help.
 
So from what I see after having played decently intensively for a few days, observing people using Top Lel and playing against this monstrosity:

- It hurts. Oh my god it hurts, and it hurts so bad. The typing of Psychic and Fairy means that if you're running a dark type to soak up the psychic move, you're exposing yourself to get spanked by the Moonblast. Of course, this would probably be null and void if it's Specs Lele (Which from what I gather/have seen is the most common variant) and you correctly predict the move, but then again they can probably also predict your switch and hit you with something neutral off that huge special attack stat. Anything that isn't Blissey or Celesteela can't safely switch into this thing, and the latter case isn't a safe switch if Tapu Lele is running Thunderbolt. (Considering that Celesteela is the new and improved Skarmory as a steel/flying with access to Leech Seed and Flamethrower of all things, and a consistently powerful Heavy Slam, I guess it isn't even a bad option.)

- Psychic Surge partially renders one of its theoretical main counters null and void- a Bullet Punch to the face. Because of Psychic Terrain nullifying priority moves, Mega Scizor is just... Ugh. A consistent counter ends up being an abject failure because of this. Of course, this still leaves Megagross, who possesses resistances to both of Tapu Lele's STABs and decent special bulk to handle neutral stuff being thrown out, but who can be easily walled by Celesteela and Gliscor if Megagross isn't running Ice Punch. So while yes, specifically Tapu Lele can be countered, Tapu Lele also has teammates to giggle madly at those counters as they push them away.

tl;dr: Hits very hard, great STAB combination, Choice Specs set murders anything it looks at that isn't Blissey and often requires sacrifices to deal with properly, Psychic Surge is incredibly problematic.
 
tl;dr: Hits very hard, great STAB combination, Choice Specs set murders anything it looks at that isn't Blissey and often requires sacrifices to deal with properly, Psychic Surge is incredibly problematic.
How would Magearna fare against Lele? Steel/Fairy, has just as good Special Attack with the potential to improve, decent bulk and the Fairy Typing ensure neutral damage from Focus Miss. The only problem is that they need Trick Room to outspeed Lele.
 

NabboCheTesta

Gniubbo come sempre
How would Magearna fare against Lele? Steel/Fairy, has just as good Special Attack with the potential to improve, decent bulk and the Fairy Typing ensure neutral damage from Focus Miss. The only problem is that they need Trick Room to outspeed Lele.
or shift gear... I should have used that move lol, you greninja'd me badly.
 
So from what I see after having played decently intensively for a few days, observing people using Top Lel and playing against this monstrosity:

- It hurts. Oh my god it hurts, and it hurts so bad. The typing of Psychic and Fairy means that if you're running a dark type to soak up the psychic move, you're exposing yourself to get spanked by the Moonblast. Of course, this would probably be null and void if it's Specs Lele (Which from what I gather/have seen is the most common variant) and you correctly predict the move, but then again they can probably also predict your switch and hit you with something neutral off that huge special attack stat. Anything that isn't Blissey or Celesteela can't safely switch into this thing, and the latter case isn't a safe switch if Tapu Lele is running Thunderbolt. (Considering that Celesteela is the new and improved Skarmory as a steel/flying with access to Leech Seed and Flamethrower of all things, and a consistently powerful Heavy Slam, I guess it isn't even a bad option.)

- Psychic Surge partially renders one of its theoretical main counters null and void- a Bullet Punch to the face. Because of Psychic Terrain nullifying priority moves, Mega Scizor is just... Ugh. A consistent counter ends up being an abject failure because of this. Of course, this still leaves Megagross, who possesses resistances to both of Tapu Lele's STABs and decent special bulk to handle neutral stuff being thrown out, but who can be easily walled by Celesteela and Gliscor if Megagross isn't running Ice Punch. So while yes, specifically Tapu Lele can be countered, Tapu Lele also has teammates to giggle madly at those counters as they push them away.

tl;dr: Hits very hard, great STAB combination, Choice Specs set murders anything it looks at that isn't Blissey and often requires sacrifices to deal with properly, Psychic Surge is incredibly problematic.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 535-630 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

By simply changing its choice of STAB, the blobs go from counter to fodder. Not even M-Alakazam hits as hard

252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 325-384 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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Okay I'm gonna attempt some calcs of Tapu Lele vs. Magearna

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 128-151 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (I presume Scarfed Magearna is at least common

This one is against a theoretical using A SpD boosting nature and maxxed EVs in SpD and HP

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 95-112 (31.5 - 37.2%) -- 83.2% chance to 3HKO

Now for calcs where Magearna attacks. Both mons focusing on Special Attack. Again theorymonning here.

252+ SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 254-302 (90.3 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Now, assuming I didn't mess up (which the chances are likely since this is my first time using calcs for matchups and I forgot to factor in the terrain) Magearna does seems like a very viable counter. The first two calcs were made with magearna not having any moves so that I cna see how well they can tank Lele's attack. Ina ll cases the most damaging Attack for Lele was Focus Blast.

252 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele: 234-276 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 128-151 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Okay the calcs above does factor in the terrain but it still seems like a specially offensive Magearna can take down Lele even on their home turf.
 
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And with that we established two counters to Lele, Bronzong and Magearna.

Of course two seems too few and Landorus-I got banned despite having counters
 
What does modest scarf beat that timid scarf can't?

Just did some basic calcs for the things Tapu Lele struggles against:

Timid: 252 SpA Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 204-240 (57.9 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Modest: 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 224-264 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Timid: 252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Celesteela: 156-184 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Modest: 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Celesteela: 170-202 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Timid: 252 SpA Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Modest: 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 178-210 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Conversely, timid outspeeds Jolly Pheromosa (obvs a huge threat), Timid Mega Alakazam, Jolly Mega Aerodactyl, +1 Adamant Mega Charizard X, +2 Modest Magearna (not a check regardless), +1 Kommo-o, Scarf Kyurem-Black (outspeeds Adamant, ties with Jolly), +1 Adamant Mega Sharpedo etc
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 356-422 (99.7 - 118.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 248-294 (82.1 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 272-324 (90 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 226-266 (87.2 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 246-290 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 241-285 (88.9 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 264-312 (97.4 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 248-294 (74.9 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 272-324 (82.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I thought calcs against offensvie mons that Lele can't outspeed w/out Scarf would be more appropriate to weigh the benefits between the two natures. These mons were pretty much the only ones bothered by the switch from Timid to Modest, and outside of Chomp and Koko switching to Modest doesn't guarantee a OHKO. I think Timid is by far the better option since you can revenge kill Phero and other base 150s.
 
Sorry for the double post
I suspect that AV A-Muk can also check it, but right now I don't have time to make calcs.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Muk: 135-160 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO
0+ Atk Muk Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 126-148 (44.8 - 52.6%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
0+ Atk Muk Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 374-444 (133 - 158%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
I know this thread is for Lele but what ev spread and moveset would you guys recommend for anti-Lele AV Magearna?

Also so I'm not only just asking without contributing, Scarf genesect with a beneifucal speed nature is a strong option to grab momentum from any lele set. it out speeds timid scarf by a hair and can OHKO with Iron head. Donf have any calcs on me atm because I'm on mobile but I think it can OHKO with just 4 EV's in attack and a physical attack download boost but that's from memory and should be taken with a grain of salt. If you predict a switch out you could always simply UTURN out
 
I really wanna use natures maddness on her, just to deal with some of the super bulky pokemon, and I like Terrain Extender on her as well to give my team 8 turns of anti priority... Is that bad?
 
AV Magearna kinda bodies it
...So? There's always that one set on that one pokemongrel out there that bodies something else. Magearna also has the disadvantage of being vulnerable to Earthquake and fire moves, which can easily be exploited. (Sounds like Heatran...)

And with that we established two counters to Lele, Bronzong and Magearna.

Of course two seems too few and Landorus-I got banned despite having counters
I played mainly during Gen IV- I skipped out on the last two generations and for some odd reason I guess I'm coming back for this one. Currently, this situation is reminding me of the Salamence/Latias situation- While counters exist and nobody is denying that, the problem with this Pokemon (And Salamence and Latias, incidentally) is that you can run bait sets specifically to deal with those counters or just partner up those Pokemon with something that those counters run for the hills at the sight of. This isn't Gen IV Garchomp, where every team was a Scarfchomp counter, Bandchomp counter, Habanchomp counter, Yachechomp counter, Chainchomp counter, and Garchomp. (Look at that team for a second and realize how utterly ridiculous that is.) But at the same time, Tapu Lele warps the metagame around it with combination of rendering what should have been a surefire counter into dead weight (lol nice Bullet Punch bro) and a preposterously good STAB combination backed by really fucking good special attack and decent enough speed to run a Choice Specs set and still be reasonably competitive speedwise in the meta. If it wasn't for Psychic Surge, I highly suspect that we wouldn't even be talking about her that much.

tl;dr: Not as utterly broken as some other serious offenders in the past, but still annoying as hell and with a great statspread and brokenly strong ability. Should probably be a suspect.
 
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