Taunt Discussion: Anti-Stall?

Dragontamer

The cool thing about stall teams: they only take a single turn to set-up. Furthermore, things like spikes, toxic spikes and Stealth Rocks are difficult to remove once they are set down.

I was thinking... Why not keep the opponent taunted the whole battle? This will keep half of the opponent's attacks entirely ineffective if they are a stall pokemon / Team. EDIT: Of course, it is unlikely that someone would make a 100% taunt team; however, if it is done as an exercise, we might be able to figure some things out that otherwise wouldn't be.

Now, Obi's team seems to be the most popular one under discussion right now. And if you look at it, Hippowdon has Stealth Rocks and Slack Off, both useless after taunt. Skarm has Whirlwind, spikes, and roost. Blissey has wish, protect, and toxic. Tentacruel has toxic spikes. Celebi has perish song and recover. Spritomb has Rest / Talk, both useless after taunt.

My own stall team is also weak to taunt. Abomasnow is a sub/seeder, Walrein LOL. Tentacruel sets up toxic spikes. Garchomp stealth rocks, froslass has destiny bond and spikes. Only Weavile remains, and he is easy to deal with alone.

Needless to say, if taunt is kept on the whole time, stall teams get a serious disadvantage. At the very least, plans are messed up.

Of course, taunt is not useful unless there are useful pokemon who learn taunt. So here is a list of pokemon that I personally found useful, split up into categories based on their moveset and stats.

http://serebii.net/attackdex-dp/taunt.shtml

Notable Physical Sweepers: (High speed or Priority, High Attack)
Weavile
Infernape
Ambipom
Honchcrow (Stab Sucker Punch)
Toxicroak
Electivire
Aerodactyl
Floatzel
--
Dodrio (Staraptor can't do taunt! My favorite bird has a niche use in OU!)

I should note that Gliscor makes an interesting theoretical Taunt / sweeper with 95 Atk, 95 Speed, element of surprise and STAB Earthquake, Quake / Stone Edge combo, Swords Dance and hyper cutter... he deserves a theoretical mention.

Notable Special Sweepers: (High speed and high Sp. Atk)
Mismagius
Gengar
Azelf
Alakazam
Houndoom
Jynx
Froslass
Infernape
Magmotar

This list is much smaller, but nonetheless shows once again the extreme flexability of Gengar. Alakazam makes a surprise show here, although Azelf can Nasty Plot and scare the crap out of the opponent. I'm pretty sure that Froslass is the only bolt/beamer here.

Mixed Attackers (Can go physical or special)
Infernape
Electivire
Magmotar

Notable Physical Artillery (Very High Attack / Wall Breakers)
Ursaring
Gallade
Gyarados
Tyranitar

Notable special Artillery
All Sp. Sweepers +...
Honchkrow (Nasty Plot)
Heatran

Baton Passers (With possible passable stats in parenthesis)
Ambipom (Agility, Nasty Plot)
Gliscor (Agility, Swords Dance)
Floatzel (Bulk Up, Agility)
Mr. Mime (Calm Mind)
Umbreon (Mean Look, Snatch, Curse, Wish)
Mawile (Iron Defense, Swords Dance, Stockpile)
Absol (Calm Mind, Swords Dance)
Smeargle (anything... Ingrain in particular)

I'd say the biggest one here is Gliscor. Swords Dance actually helps his own stats, you have an element of surprise, excellent defenses to pull it off and not too shabby speed.

Physical Tanks and Walls (High Defenses)
Bastiodon
Gliscor
Weezing
Steelix
Slaking
Probopass
Dusknoir
Drapion
Gyarados
T-Tar
Muk

Support
Crobat
Gardevoir
Gallade


While these pokemon may be too slow to use it, if all you want to do is stop Bronzong or Forretress from using Stealth Rocks, just about everyone can do it with no EV investment. Dusknoir and Bastiodon probably need some EVs... but I don't feel like checking the speed of them.

Skarm IMO would be the speed to aim at if you wish to successfully taunt the roosting, spiking, phazing, stealth rocking bird.

What is surprising to me is how many pokemon can learn taunt. Theoretically, it seems that I can put together a lot of these pokemon and actually make a taunt team with them.

If I keep up the taunt, I won't need to worry about rapid spin. So no spinner necessary. I have my wish passing with Gardevoir, Gallade and Umbreon. I can have baton passers pass without any worry of phazers (both my passer and reciever can have taunt). There are an assortment of sweepers to choose from, not just strange guys like Dodrio but real OU threats like Infernape, Weavile and Gengar. I can have my own spiker as Steelix, Toxic Spike Drapion, and

Furthermore, a good taunt will disable any kind of healing that my opponent can do, as well as any stat-ups if I'm faster. Infernape moving in while Weavile is out? No switches avaliable? Might as well taunt before I die to prevent the nasty plot / swords dance.

The only problem is of course, the special wall. If I really had to keep 100% taunt... I'd experiment first with Wish Gallade / Wish Gardevoir, Pain Split Dusknoir, and Probopass. Of these, only Gallade and Gardevoir are really fast enough to taunt the dangerous guys.

-------

However, a good team cannot be just plain old anti-stall. How can this team beat a typical OU team? Weavile instantly comes to mind as a must-have, as he scares away every dragon with Ice Punch. Mixape is well-known for its ability in breaking walls, but to modify its moveset to include taunt is difficult indeed.

Overall, questions still remain unanswered... but I hope that this topic might serve as a useful brainstorm to those who wish to break the new stall metagame that has developed. I think some more riskier strategies might work if your team can guarentee that spikes, stealth rocks, and so forth won't ruing your fun. Bellyzard comes to mind for example, as does more liberal uses of Focus Sash. Other interesting choices might be Motres, Regice, and so forth.
 
Having Taunt on all six Pokemon seems quite limiting to me. It'd have to strike a perfect balance of being able to keep stall teams from setting up while still being able to deal with multiple threats and being threatening yourself.

Of course, if you don't have six Taunters, you'd probably still want a Rapid Spinner, etc. as a backup of sorts because the opponent can still "set up" on your non-Taunters or on your switch to a Taunter.

Taunt affects a particular Pokemon, not the entire team, right?
 
Taunt Gliscor is awesome.

The set I run is Earthquake/Taunt/Stealth Rock/Roost. It is true that I cannot do anything to Skarmory, but then, a taunted Skarmory is useless against Gliscor. All it ends up doing is wasting Drill Peck PP on a pokemon that can remove the damage instantly. It also sets up rocks meaning the stalling pokemon can't just switch out unfettered at their whim. Earthquake provides some power and works well enough. Heracross can't really do anything to Gliscor and Ape won't switch in. Ice Fang? Puh-leeze. If your name isn't Mamoswine or Weavile, don't even think about using physical ice attacks.
 
Crap, I deleted a few paragraphs I didn't want to

>_>

Okay, cause those aren't there, I just want to keep this in mind: this is mostly an exercise. I don't expect a 100% taunt team, and would expect something closer to 3 or 4 taunt pokemon at the core, 1 late game sweeper (Bellyzard!!!), and 1/2 other guys who round out the team (maybe a choice bander...)
 
The only a few pokes that can really use taunt effectively, since a good taunter must a.) be bulky enough to take a hit when they taunt, b.) be fast enough to get the taunt in, c.) not have a better move which could be used, and d.) be A good poke to begin with.

Really the only pokes I think are good for taunt are Gyarados and Gliscor. Gyara is bulky and can easily set up with DD after a taunt. Gliscor is physically bulky, fast, has roost, and deals decent damage with earthquake.

I have used a taunting gliscor to great success on Shoddy; it allows gliscor to counter SD scizor and hera, smeargle, breloom (with speed ev's), and a number of other pokes, as well as stop recovery from blissey, jirachi (speed ev's again), celebi, miltank, and spikes/Toxispikes/SR from anything.

I do have to give props to wdro's taunting Crobat on Shoddy, which has annoyed the crap out of me countless times with taunt-->U-Turn.

Taunting Slaking is @lol. --TAY
 
I know for a fact that tauntdos and taunt tyranitar are nasty, especially since tyranitar is such a wicked wall breaker.

Edit: what a crappy post, sorry...Should add something.

I like this idea, but maybe having it on a mix of like 4 or 3 guys could change things around a bit. Buy you some time to SD or CM up and then just do your damage.

Alternatively...could this not lead to a anti stall STALL team? Think about the ramifications: preventing your opponents stall team from doing anything whilst you roar/whirlwind them and get passive damage ALL OVER THE PLACE. Coooool!
 
Anti-stall stall teams are easy. All you need is a clefable with softboiled and encore, rest/talk or roar suicune who is one of the fastest phazers, and toxic spikes of your own (who else but tentacruel?). The hard part is making a decent team of it when you aren't facing a stall team.
 
Dragontamer said:
All you need is a clefable with softboiled and encore
Click to expand...

Who needs Encore? Adamant Life Orb Belly Drum Clefable could do some horrifying damage against stall teams without a fast sweeper (Double Edge OHKOs Hippowdon, Fire Punch OHKOs Skarmory). Granted, that's not much of a weakness.
 
Hmm, to me I feel that for a lot of these pokes, it's like running a side-deck card in the main deck (to use a TCG analogy).

In other words, taunt's a potentially great move, but it doesn't do much when the opponent switches in Heracross. Not every team is a stall team, and taking up poke/move slots just to counter one particular type of team seems a bit much.

The goal in pokemon is to win consistantly (not all, but consistantly), and for that you've got to make your own strategy work-- not be concerned with countering all the others, and certainly not devoting excess resources just to counter one sort of team.

Besides stall teams aren't completely helpless to taunt. Serene Grace Blissey burns you with flamethrower. xD
 
Chozo said:
Who needs Encore? Adamant Life Orb Belly Drum Clefable could do some horrifying damage against stall teams without a fast sweeper (Double Edge OHKOs Hippowdon, Fire Punch OHKOs Skarmory). Granted, that's not much of a weakness.
Click to expand...

If you want a Clefable with Magic Guard, as most people would, you're gonna have to pick one move or the other. Magic Guard never existed in Advance.
 
You might as well just keep a few Wall Breakers on your team. Obi's team alone is walled by Calm Mind Clefable, and is swept if it carries a Flamethrower/Focus Blast set.
 
Panda said:
If you want a Clefable with Magic Guard, as most people would, you're gonna have to pick one move or the other. Magic Guard never existed in Advance.
Click to expand...

It is, however, possible for the ability to change in D/P when Pal Park'd over, from what I gather.
 
Panda said:
If you want a Clefable with Magic Guard, as most people would, you're gonna have to pick one move or the other. Magic Guard never existed in Advance.
Click to expand...

1. Breed a Cleffa with Belly Drum on Emerald
2. Level it until it becomes Clefairy
3. Clone it and transfer to D/P
4. Use Moonstone to evolve to Clefable. Did Cute Charm change to Magic Guard?
If Yes: go to step 5.
If No: go to step 1.
5. Teach Softboiled/Double-Edge/coverage Punch via move tutors.
6. Transfer to D/P
7. Evolve, enjoy your Pokemon that almost no one has.

This also applies to any other "Clefable with 3rd gen tutor moves + Magic Guard" setup you can think of.
 
As well as about any "3rd gen Pokemon with 3rd Gen tutor moves that gets to learn it in an unevolved stage".

You should keep in mind that if your Taunter gets killed by the attacking move the opponent is using you're just wasting your time. Case in point: Grass Knot Celebi 3HKOs Gyarados.
 
I showed my friend Obi's stall team a while ago, and he said: "How could a such a good player let his team be weak to one of the new breakthrough moves in D/P?" He meant Taunt.
 
I was thinking of using a team with lots of fast Taunters and possibly a slower, bulkier one, such as Gliscor, but I never got around to actually trying to think up a team.

Taunt Gliscor is really deadly. I've faced a couple before, and if I hadn't Taunted them before they did to me, I definately would've lost. Floatzel is a great example of a good Taunter, and is also very capable of working outside of just the anti-stall team design.
 
You're effectively losing 25% of your potential by giving up a moveslot on every single one of your pokemon.

Is beating a few stalling and stat-up moves worth that 25% loss?

If you want a Clefable with Magic Guard, as most people would, you're gonna have to pick one move or the other. Magic Guard never existed in Advance.
Click to expand...

This is a stupid misconception that has been explained countless times. I didn't need Mekkah to tell me how to do it.
 
In addition to having taunters in your team, you can also carry a fast sleeper so that you can shut down your opponent's set uppers even further.
 
ChouToshio said:
Hmm, to me I feel that for a lot of these pokes, it's like running a side-deck card in the main deck (to use a TCG analogy).

In other words, taunt's a potentially great move, but it doesn't do much when the opponent switches in Heracross. Not every team is a stall team, and taking up poke/move slots just to counter one particular type of team seems a bit much.

The goal in pokemon is to win consistantly (not all, but consistantly), and for that you've got to make your own strategy work-- not be concerned with countering all the others, and certainly not devoting excess resources just to counter one sort of team.

Besides stall teams aren't completely helpless to taunt. Serene Grace Blissey burns you with flamethrower. xD
Click to expand...

Nonetheless, you cannot deny that the higher rankings of Shoddybattle are Stall teams. I do believe that Stall Teams are only going to get more popular as more and more people explore the huge amount of possibilities that stalling allows.

Therefore, we must change with the metagame. This taunt strategy would not work say, 6 months ago when Rhyperior was considered unstopable and people were so obsessed with Choice Band Weavile leads that Choice Scarf Weavile netted me a few wins (along with surprising a few Scarf Garchomps :-p) ...

Today, the metagame is shifting towards stall. Therefore, to beat the current metagame, we must shift to anti-stall strategies. Thats just how it goes. Hopefully, taunt is not too specific, and it does seem like taunters come in all shapes and sizes. We certainly have the flexibility to choose decent taunters.

You should keep in mind that if your Taunter gets killed by the attacking move the opponent is using you're just wasting your time. Case in point: Grass Knot Celebi 3HKOs Gyarados.
Click to expand...

Thats a good point Mekkah. However, when you have a powerful sweeper on the field, getting that taunt on say, that T-Wave from Blissey puts you far ahead. Not only did you block a crippling status, but you have now prevented the wall from recovering.

Obviously, Taunt is not so useful on say... Hippowdon or Swampert, because their earthquake is just so darn powerful, especially for a wall. Celebi makes another example. However, for less offensive threats like Skarmory, Blissey, and in some cases Bronzong, taunt is very crippling.
 
Dragontamer said:
Anti-stall stall teams are easy. All you need is a clefable with softboiled and encore, rest/talk or roar suicune who is one of the fastest phazers, and toxic spikes of your own (who else but tentacruel?). The hard part is making a decent team of it when you aren't facing a stall team.
Click to expand...
Actually... While Tentacruel has really been doing well for people lately, people forget his physical counterpart with only one weakness... Drapion. Yes, Drapion.
Drapion can taunt, phaze, set up Toxic Spikes, and Knock Off stuff. Don't forget it's Whirlwinding capabilities! Drapion is the guy who can replace that unneeded Tentacruel on your teams! Yay.
 
Dragontamer said:
Nonetheless, you cannot deny that the higher rankings of Shoddybattle are Stall teams. I do believe that Stall Teams are only going to get more popular as more and more people explore the huge amount of possibilities that stalling allows.
Click to expand...


This is NOT true considering I own 4 of the top 12 ranked nicks on Shoddyladder.

Anyways, the issue with Taunt is, the second it gets obvious, that's when you're taking unnecessary damage. See, the things that can afford the damage are slow shits, meaning an easy switch wears off Taunt and it's easy to set up at least one Poke, unless you're randomly Taunting on the switch now too. As for the fast Pokes, they never needed it, for example, when people see Infernape, are they thinking, oh I must set up Spikes or are they thinking, shit I better get the off out of there to Cressy/Duskn/FSDug/Tenta etc?
 
Saturn said:
Actually... While Tentacruel has really been doing well for people lately, people forget his physical counterpart with only one weakness... Drapion. Yes, Drapion.
Drapion can taunt, phaze, set up Toxic Spikes, and Knock Off stuff. Don't forget it's Whirlwinding capabilities! Drapion is the guy who can replace that unneeded Tentacruel on your teams! Yay.
Click to expand...

I agree to that. However, despite Drapion being a very viable option, I have a hard time not using Tentacruel since it's Special Walling abilities usually aid me in using my favoured Pokemon on most occasions.

On another note, Taunt is a very effective method I could see being used on Sweeper teams. Maybe set up a good U-Turner to start like Crobat and have a good assortment of effective Sweepers. Bring said Pokemon on the opponents that will likely have to switch (i.e. Infernape > Blissey), and Taunt the switch.
 
I use Taunt Gliscor primarily to stop Cursers such as Tyranitar and Snorlax. However, it seems to do more than just those-Taunt Gliscor beats Brave Bird Skarmory one on one, Taunting away at its moves and forcing it to Brave Bird Gliscor for lol damage, where the recoil will slowly rack up and destroy it. It helped me against Obi once.

I use EQ/[AA/Ice Fang]/Taunt/Roost
 
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