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Team Fortress 2 - The Official Discussion Thread
- Thread starter McLovinn
- Start date
Let's talk about the Huntsman.
Why does everybody rag on this thing? Granted what I'm about to say is anecdotal, but still -- I think it's awesome. One second to be fully charged? Yes please! Half your kills aren't even going to need a headshot with that awesomeness (and that's a good thing, because it's really tough to get a headshot with it beyond a certain not-very-long distance, requiring you to predict movement with precision that starts bordering on the psychic).
I don't know how people normally use the sniper rifle but I tend to have a pretty hard time taking out the heavy with it, normally because I don't sit scoped-in against a single point all day and instead try to move around and cover lots of different areas that need covering, meaning I don't get a large enough charge to do the job pretty much ever. Enter the Huntsman! This wonder of a weapon is practically guaranteed to always get a headshot on a heavy (as they move so incredibly slowly, just like your arrow!) and gets the required charge super-fast. And it seems practically built for the cover-lots-of-area style of play I enjoy!
I think I must be doing something right if I'm always coming in the top 3 when I use the thing. Blah blah anecdotal experience on pubs, but it's still worth something.
(And I do switch off between the sniper rifle and the huntsman depending on the map and where on the map we currently are. I can't see how anyone who actually uses the huntsman doesn't do this.)
One thing the huntsman sucks at is area denial. I mean, if there's a good sniper on the other team and you see a red dot from that sniper rifle sitting in the chokepoint you have to walk through, you're going to think twice before walking through that. It's pretty much a landmine. The huntsman sure can't replicate that.
Why does everybody rag on this thing? Granted what I'm about to say is anecdotal, but still -- I think it's awesome. One second to be fully charged? Yes please! Half your kills aren't even going to need a headshot with that awesomeness (and that's a good thing, because it's really tough to get a headshot with it beyond a certain not-very-long distance, requiring you to predict movement with precision that starts bordering on the psychic).
I don't know how people normally use the sniper rifle but I tend to have a pretty hard time taking out the heavy with it, normally because I don't sit scoped-in against a single point all day and instead try to move around and cover lots of different areas that need covering, meaning I don't get a large enough charge to do the job pretty much ever. Enter the Huntsman! This wonder of a weapon is practically guaranteed to always get a headshot on a heavy (as they move so incredibly slowly, just like your arrow!) and gets the required charge super-fast. And it seems practically built for the cover-lots-of-area style of play I enjoy!
I think I must be doing something right if I'm always coming in the top 3 when I use the thing. Blah blah anecdotal experience on pubs, but it's still worth something.
(And I do switch off between the sniper rifle and the huntsman depending on the map and where on the map we currently are. I can't see how anyone who actually uses the huntsman doesn't do this.)
One thing the huntsman sucks at is area denial. I mean, if there's a good sniper on the other team and you see a red dot from that sniper rifle sitting in the chokepoint you have to walk through, you're going to think twice before walking through that. It's pretty much a landmine. The huntsman sure can't replicate that.
Hey, so do I! It's really quite fortunate that I have several public servers in my favorites so I can change servers when it comes up or, better yet, play on a server where Hoodoo isn't part of the map rotation.
Yes, but that's after you've knocked the arrow, which takes about a full second. Fully charged Huntsman shots have an attack interval of almost two seconds.
Huntsman arrows are a lot like grenades: they're arcing projectiles that ignore damage dropoff. The time it takes to fire and reload a single grenade is still less than the time it takes to knock and fully charge a single arrow, and as I discussed in 17 pages, the demoman's attack interval improves considerably when reloading multiple grenades. Also consider that the demoman's movement is not hindered during his attack cycle, whereas the sniper must spend half his attack interval charging the shot and remaining relatively stationary. Huntsman arrows do inflict greater damage than grenades upon impact, but direct grenades do damage comparable to huntsman bodyshots and also have an area of effect, making it possible to damage multiple enemies. In short, the huntsman is a primary weapon that is on par with the demoman's secondary weapon, and the demoman has considerably more HP than the sniper.
Comparing the huntsman to the sniper rifle, both weapons have the ability to one-shot over half the classes in the game with headshots, but the sniper rifle does so far more reliably due to the fact that it's a hitscan weapon and can't be dodged. In short, the sniper rifle can often get by with uncharged shots (which come once every 1.5 seconds) whereas Huntsman users seldom use uncharged shots, meaning that the two are roughly even in terms of rate of fire.
That's one of the problems when attempting a critique of the Huntsman: headshot kills award an extra point. As such, points don't really measure how much you contribute to your team. Regardless of whether you used a headshot or a fully-charged sniper rifle bodyshot, a dead medic is still a dead medic. At least the sniper rifle only awards an extra half point for headshot kills.
The sniper rifle is a really awesome weapon. It can one-shot anything at any range, and against most things it doesn't even need a charged shot, and I don't see much point in exchanging it for a projectile weapon when existing projectile classes are much more versatile than the huntsman sniper. The only thing I like about the huntsman over the sniper rifle is that it doesn't restrict your FOV. (The sniper rifle hits your FOV hard: once for the zoom, and twice for the tunnel vision-inducing scope graphic.) However, the only place where I find this is an issue is pubs where communication is bad enough that my teammates won't warn me that there's a scout coming in from an angle that I'm not watching.
That being said, there are still plenty of times when I turn corners only to get a huntsman arrow through the face, and I have seen huntsman snipers take out multiple enemies in fairly rapid succession. However, I'd rather use a sniper rifle at medium to long range and other projectile classes seem to do better at close range.
I wasn't aware you got a full extra point for a headshot kill with the Huntsman. That takes the wind out of my argument's sails somewhat (though I'll note that whenever I end up in the top 3, it's by a large margin that's not explained by the number of headshots I get -- a fact that is probably worth nothing, except saying).
As for the Demoman comparison, I don't think it's fair to say that it's faster to load and fire one grenade than it is to fire off a fully-charged arrow and stop there, because it's missing the amount of time it takes to fire off a half-charged or quarter-charged arrow. I don't actually know how long that is; it would be pretty enlightening to know. I rarely go with a fully-charged shot unless I'm planning on killing a heavy, overhealed soldier, or turning a corner.
Maybe I just suck with the demoman (which is a considerable possibility) but one thing I like about the arrow compared to the grenade is that it flies straight much farther and longer than the grenade.
Very true about pubs where your teammates won't warn you. What I wouldn't give to have teammates warn me when I'm playing with the sniper rifle. Hey, you guys online at the server? :P
(I only really play Payload though.)
Also, I completely agree that Hoodoo sucks. The last point is especially retarded, that one sentry spot in front of the enemy gate is just too damn well-covered.
On a separate note, I have this strange aura of suck with the soldier. This confuses me a lot, because not only was Unreal Tournament one of my favorite games, but I was especially proficient with the rocket launcher in said game. I know it's a different weapon in a different game, but I was hoping something would carry over.
As for the Demoman comparison, I don't think it's fair to say that it's faster to load and fire one grenade than it is to fire off a fully-charged arrow and stop there, because it's missing the amount of time it takes to fire off a half-charged or quarter-charged arrow. I don't actually know how long that is; it would be pretty enlightening to know. I rarely go with a fully-charged shot unless I'm planning on killing a heavy, overhealed soldier, or turning a corner.
Maybe I just suck with the demoman (which is a considerable possibility) but one thing I like about the arrow compared to the grenade is that it flies straight much farther and longer than the grenade.
Very true about pubs where your teammates won't warn you. What I wouldn't give to have teammates warn me when I'm playing with the sniper rifle. Hey, you guys online at the server? :P
(I only really play Payload though.)
Also, I completely agree that Hoodoo sucks. The last point is especially retarded, that one sentry spot in front of the enemy gate is just too damn well-covered.
On a separate note, I have this strange aura of suck with the soldier. This confuses me a lot, because not only was Unreal Tournament one of my favorite games, but I was especially proficient with the rocket launcher in said game. I know it's a different weapon in a different game, but I was hoping something would carry over.
You get two points with headshots and backstabs because it is very likely that person you killed had full health; therefore you are killing an enemy with full health usually before they are even able to do damage to your team.
Usually when I land a headshot or a backstab, the person I am attacking is either a medic, is overhealed, or has full health much more often than anything else which in my opinion is worth the extra points. Unlike with other classes, the spy and the sniper allow you to eliminate classes easily before they even reach your line of defense thus helping out your team quite a bit.
Since the Spy vs Sniper update headshots only earn you 0.5 points. (plus the one for killing the bugger)
EDIT: Oh, does the huntsman still give a full point? I didn't know that lol.
The other downside to the Huntsman is that a fully charged bodyshot only does 120 (clearly a purposeful move to balance it), which isn't enough to kill any class in the game. So unless you're godly at headshotting and judging its parabolic arc, you'll lose to Scouts in a 1 v 1 situation most of the time with the Huntsman, whereas the regular rifle stands a much greater chance. In a 6 v 6 situation, this means both the lone scout (since he'll usually be in a 2 v 1 situation) and your sniper are vulnerable to Scouts, leaving a gaping hole in your defence.
EDIT:
EDIT: Oh, does the huntsman still give a full point? I didn't know that lol.
The other downside to the Huntsman is that a fully charged bodyshot only does 120 (clearly a purposeful move to balance it), which isn't enough to kill any class in the game. So unless you're godly at headshotting and judging its parabolic arc, you'll lose to Scouts in a 1 v 1 situation most of the time with the Huntsman, whereas the regular rifle stands a much greater chance. In a 6 v 6 situation, this means both the lone scout (since he'll usually be in a 2 v 1 situation) and your sniper are vulnerable to Scouts, leaving a gaping hole in your defence.
EDIT:
So true.
That's why the SMG is so handy with the Huntsman. I've never been that big a fan of Jarate! Actually, I've never been that fond of the Sniper in general, despite being decent enough with him.
The only time I've ever seen competitive snipers is on cp_Tundra? I think that's the map and also the 3rd CP on Gravel. Other than that, 2 in sync scouts on the other team will always dominate an enemy sniper regardless of how good their shot is.
I'd like to talk about the heavy in competitive play. We all know that teams run the 2,2,1,1 setup for most matches, but a lot of Euro teams like to run 2 scouts, 1 soldier, 1 heavy, 1 demo and 1 medic. I'm surprise that more teams don't run heavy. Basically you are giving up movement gains from the soldier for raw power. Especially on push maps like Well where the Heavy has time to actually get to the fight before the round starts, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to run him in that situation. Another situation I see a lot of heavies used in is when capping the 5th point on granary. Since most teams usually turtle up, it usually gives the attacking team to bring in the heavy who usually sits in the back and deals massive damage.
When you combine all this with the fact that you so rarely see snipers, engineers and spies in competitive play, I think the heavy is in interesting strat in some situations. Now don't get me wrong, I think that two soldiers playing in sync is probably the better option, I just think that changing to a heavy might mix things up and throw teams off. Anyway, you thoughts?
I'd like to talk about the heavy in competitive play. We all know that teams run the 2,2,1,1 setup for most matches, but a lot of Euro teams like to run 2 scouts, 1 soldier, 1 heavy, 1 demo and 1 medic. I'm surprise that more teams don't run heavy. Basically you are giving up movement gains from the soldier for raw power. Especially on push maps like Well where the Heavy has time to actually get to the fight before the round starts, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to run him in that situation. Another situation I see a lot of heavies used in is when capping the 5th point on granary. Since most teams usually turtle up, it usually gives the attacking team to bring in the heavy who usually sits in the back and deals massive damage.
When you combine all this with the fact that you so rarely see snipers, engineers and spies in competitive play, I think the heavy is in interesting strat in some situations. Now don't get me wrong, I think that two soldiers playing in sync is probably the better option, I just think that changing to a heavy might mix things up and throw teams off. Anyway, you thoughts?
I can only talk of my experience in the Australian leauges, but over here the Snipers a very dominant force on all points of Gravelpit on both attack and defence, and attacking Granary last. For Gpit it's expecially at B since on Defence the Sentry gun provides good protection from Scouts. And on Attack if your initial push into B from C fails you literally have too kill the medic to cap B, so the snipers the perfect man for the job (pardon the pun). You mentioned in your post how many teams drop a Scout for a Heavy on Granary last. This provides the perfect opportunity for a Sniper to come in and attempt to pick off the medic. The other scout will open the door for him and protect him from the defending teams lone scout while he attempts to headshot something off the pipe.
It might just be because we're biast though, who knows?
I think you'll begin to see the Heavy replace the secondary Soldier in a few teams when the beta testing for his new gloves are done, which will reportedly allow him to run at 100% speed while he has them out, so he will no longer arrive at mid point 15 minutes after the game has finished. This biggest downside I can see is that with the Heavy is that you lose the ability to grind uber, which could in some situations cost you the match.
Freight and follower are two customs where you'll very frequently see snipers on the middle point due to how open things are. You'll also see them from time to time on badlands. There aren't any places on badlands where snipers are very ineffective, except when the enemy team is holding yard and you're trying to push through choke.
That's mainly because once you capture the 4th point on granary you get that sweet forward spawn that makes it practical to play a slow class like heavy since he doesn't have to cover much distance to get to the action. Unfortunately the final point of granary is also a place where snipers tend to excel so the heavy doesn't do so well when he's on the push.
The European strategy which utilizes the heavy is actually less about the heavy than it is about the demoman. The idea is that you run your team around a demoman/medic combo. The demoman, with support from the medic, has a lot more killing potential than a pocket soldier would, and the demoman/medic combo arguably has the advantage against the soldier/medic combo in most situations. The only problem with running the demoman/medic combo is that it's rather vulnerable to scouts. That's where the heavy comes in: his job is to prevent scouts from flanking the demoman and medic, enabling the demoman to concentrate on killing stuff.
The main reason that this strategy isn't used as much as the standard soldier/medic combo is that when the demoman dies, the team loses its ability to push, whereas if a soldier dies, the other soldier can just take his place. There was a point when European leagues allowed two demomen per team (4kings beat Pandemic in the finals of some tournament by running two demomen) but that was quite some time ago.
Most of what we know about the upcoming updates being tested in the TF2 beta are based on hearsay and rumor.
Also, about the server: We did actually have a pretty good game going today for several maps, but unfortunately a lot of people dropped from the server after the map changed to freight, presumably because they didn't have the map. Although I do think that we should keep some customs in the rotation for the sake of variety, it might be a good idea for stock maps to make up a large enough percentage that we're never forced into a situation where the only voting options are customs.
The current rotation consists of the following:
cp_granary
cp_well
cp_badlands
cp_fastlane
cp_gravelpit
pl_badwater
arena_lumberyard
arena_sawmill
cp_furnace_b3
cp_freight
cp_follower
cp_waste
cp_yukon_rc3
cp_generator_b4b
cp_gullywash_rc6
Right now it's a 8/6 split between stock and custom. I think that, for the time being, it would be a good idea to cut out at least two of the customs. (I'd personally vote to remove gullywash and generator.) Whatever maps are removed can be added back over time if people want more maps later down the line.
Also, are people okay with adding ctf_turbine to the rotation since if we're removing several customs? I'm pretty sure that setting the capture limit to 0 should give us the CAL CTF config, and if that doesn't work it can just be set to something high like 9.
I've never played Gullywash or Generator, so I don't care if they go so much. Furnace should probably be taken off of the map rotation as it's just a remake of Gravelpit, and not quite as good as the original. More than that, people tend to stick more to official maps, so that's another point towards only Gravelpit.
Turbine should be added in, along with cp_yukon. Both are quite fun maps. Also, though you may not agree with it, I think cp_steel would be a good addition. I know MrE, Stoo, and myself are big fans (last I checked) of it, despite it's competitive flaws.
Turbine should be added in, along with cp_yukon. Both are quite fun maps. Also, though you may not agree with it, I think cp_steel would be a good addition. I know MrE, Stoo, and myself are big fans (last I checked) of it, despite it's competitive flaws.
I just played an entire round of ctf_pro_bball with three other people and it really is quite fun. I'm wondering if it should be added to the default map rotation for people to access via rtv so an admin doesn't have to be there to select it? If there was a plug-in to enable it only when there are fewer than six players on the server, that would be ideal.
I like yukon but at the moment I think it would be best to keep the number of customs under 5 so that map votes always include at least one stock map. Yukon is a pretty awkward place at the moment. There is an rc4, but many people (the mapmaker included) endorse rc3 more. He said that there are some pretty major changes going into rc5 (along with reverting some of the changes he made in rc4). Perhaps we should wait until rc5 comes along before putting yukon on the server?
I've never actually played furnace so I wouldn't be heartbroken to see it taken out of the default map rotation.
I'm not a huge fan of steel to begin with and I've found that it actually works worse for smaller games. Also, the fact that it's not a tremendously popular map means that it would probably be less likely to get people to join the server. Even if it did attract outsiders, I'm not sure that they'd be the right kind of people. Most people, after playing steel, expect the next map to be something like goldrush or dustbowl.
I like yukon but at the moment I think it would be best to keep the number of customs under 5 so that map votes always include at least one stock map. Yukon is a pretty awkward place at the moment. There is an rc4, but many people (the mapmaker included) endorse rc3 more. He said that there are some pretty major changes going into rc5 (along with reverting some of the changes he made in rc4). Perhaps we should wait until rc5 comes along before putting yukon on the server?
I've never actually played furnace so I wouldn't be heartbroken to see it taken out of the default map rotation.
I'm not a huge fan of steel to begin with and I've found that it actually works worse for smaller games. Also, the fact that it's not a tremendously popular map means that it would probably be less likely to get people to join the server. Even if it did attract outsiders, I'm not sure that they'd be the right kind of people. Most people, after playing steel, expect the next map to be something like goldrush or dustbowl.
Saying Furnace is just a remake of Gravelpit is like saying Badlands is a remake of Granary.
EDIT:
EDIT2: Just tonight the thread has changed to reflect the information we had (Sandman hp = 95), basically further confirmation.
EDIT:
For what it's worth, the Aussies involved in the TF2 beta have said basically the same thing as have been posted in that thread, days before it was posted. (bar a discrepancy in the HP taken from you in return for the sandman, we heard it would be 95)
EDIT2: Just tonight the thread has changed to reflect the information we had (Sandman hp = 95), basically further confirmation.
I like Steel but yeah it's probably not a map that would work in Smoh-gon's rotation. Freight's the only custom on the list I've played at all (and it's good). Turbine is nice for smaller games and I like having at least one CTF option in there for variety. Sawmill is my least-favorite arena map but then who really cares. :P
I'm fine with adding Turbine to the roster of stages. It seems like the only ctf map where you can't instantly force a stalemate by turtleing with sentries.
For one thing, the differences between Badlands and Granary are quite significant, while the differences in Furnace and Gravelpit aren't nearly as dramatic. Not a great comparison (Well v Granary may of been better). Anyway, originally I had typed that out differently, but it ended up sounding awkward and I had reworded the bit about Furnace into a remake. Originally, it was a longer bit that noted while it being distinctly different from GP, it had been made in the spirit of a 3cp map, which Gravelpit executed better. In the end, I remade my post and just called it a remake.
Regarding Yukon, I really would like to get this into our rotation sooner rather than later, but I suppose if you guys want to hold out until the newer version I would be okay with it. I don't think too many customs would be an issue if Gully/Generator/Furnace are removed even with BBall added, considering Turbine.
And playing BBall was fun for a bit. If a plugin like that exists, I would be more than fine with it, but I'm on the fence about it atm.
I'm iffy about the Arena maps, but if we are going to keep them, those are certainly my favorite maps of that game mode. Erm, Arena_Well and Arena_Badlands are really good as well, but we have the CP versions already!
No Cp_Steel is a letdown, but I can live without it on the server.
Kiku, lets try and play the customs in our rotation that we haven't tried much, today. I would feel bad if Generator and Gully actually turned out more than decent and ended up out of the rotation. We can try Furnace as well.
Regarding Yukon, I really would like to get this into our rotation sooner rather than later, but I suppose if you guys want to hold out until the newer version I would be okay with it. I don't think too many customs would be an issue if Gully/Generator/Furnace are removed even with BBall added, considering Turbine.
And playing BBall was fun for a bit. If a plugin like that exists, I would be more than fine with it, but I'm on the fence about it atm.
I'm iffy about the Arena maps, but if we are going to keep them, those are certainly my favorite maps of that game mode. Erm, Arena_Well and Arena_Badlands are really good as well, but we have the CP versions already!
No Cp_Steel is a letdown, but I can live without it on the server.
Kiku, lets try and play the customs in our rotation that we haven't tried much, today. I would feel bad if Generator and Gully actually turned out more than decent and ended up out of the rotation. We can try Furnace as well.
Actual rotation:
cp_gravelpit
cp_granary
cp_well
cp_badlands
cp_fastlane
pl_badwater
cp_freight
cp_follower
cp_yukon_rc3
cp_gullywash_rc6
cp_waste
cp_generator_b4b
cp_furnace_b3
arena_lumberyard
arena_sawmill
Was wondering what people thought of badwater and if they want more pl maps (would have to be custom since I hate goldrush and hoodoo with a passion). Problem is all the pl customs are huge. Let me see if I can make it so that the vote will always have a stock map.
cp_gravelpit
cp_granary
cp_well
cp_badlands
cp_fastlane
pl_badwater
cp_freight
cp_follower
cp_yukon_rc3
cp_gullywash_rc6
cp_waste
cp_generator_b4b
cp_furnace_b3
arena_lumberyard
arena_sawmill
Was wondering what people thought of badwater and if they want more pl maps (would have to be custom since I hate goldrush and hoodoo with a passion). Problem is all the pl customs are huge. Let me see if I can make it so that the vote will always have a stock map.
Badwater is quite a good map; It's likely the best PL map around (official OR custom). I don't know many good custom PL maps, besides the tug-of-war version of Waste. Goldrush is somewhat playable when you feel like messing around, but Hoodoo is trash. It's one of my least favorite maps ever, up with Pacman and other joke maps, and it wouldn't be extreme to say it's the worst official map released.
Although payload is a good gametype for most public servers, I don't particularly enjoy playing it. I always felt like it was a dumbed down version of TF2 for teams that are too disorganized (or large) to pay heed to two objectives at once. It also tends to work best for larger groups of people.
The only payload map I could recommend (pl_waste) isn't even an A/D payload map and we already have an (arguably better) version of that map. I'm okay with leaving badwater in the map rotation.
The only payload map I could recommend (pl_waste) isn't even an A/D payload map and we already have an (arguably better) version of that map. I'm okay with leaving badwater in the map rotation.
CP_Junction is fun and its a 3-triangle control point Map
CP_Egypt? I like this map too
CP_Labor is a 8v8 comp map that is fun to play as well
EDIT: Hehe, Firestorm, our server basically idles away all the time. It's mostly for us just to dick around on. Speaking of, anyone down for a little scrim tonight? 6v6 maybe?
CP_Egypt? I like this map too
CP_Labor is a 8v8 comp map that is fun to play as well
EDIT: Hehe, Firestorm, our server basically idles away all the time. It's mostly for us just to dick around on. Speaking of, anyone down for a little scrim tonight? 6v6 maybe?