The Abortion Thread (use this!)

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Great Sage

Banned deucer.
Since abortion somehow manages to at least temporarily derail every single political thread, it's probably appropriate to make a thread for it. Discuss stuff relating to abortion here. Note that forum rules still apply, so don't get too carried away.
 
I tried making this once, but unfortunately Aeolus locked it, saying "There's no point in discussing abortion". Hope it works out this time.

I'm currently pro-choice as I have absolutely no business in telling a woman if she wants to have her kid or not (unless I was the father, in which case I'd have a little say but not much). I don't think of an undeveloped fetus as a human being, and I think that the human life starts to mean something when they first experience some form of consciousness.
 
Honestly, there are bigger things for people to be worried about now adays than this. But I still stand by what I said before.

If a woman is raped who deserves to be killed? The rapist or the baby?

The rapist.

I may be Pro-Life, but I still think abortion should be legal. No one on Earth has the right to deny a woman to that and there is no fucking god you dumb asses so keep that shit outa here.
 
Pro-life/anti-woman

but I like ambitions' stance on it. fair enough you've moral objections as long as you're actually not denying access to it.
in fact the more I think about it, the more I like it.

Militant feminist therefore incredibly pro-choice. :]
 
Hmm...the more I think about this topic the more convinced I get that American culture (since it's the one where this topic always comes up) first really needs to come to a consensus on when meaningful human life begins. If you consider a 3 week old fetus to be fully human, you're probably not going to have the same opinion as someone who thinks it needs to come to full term first.

With that said, I'm pro-choice.
 
aye, I'd only support late-term abortions were there to be a serious risk to the health of the mother or the pregnancy wasn't viable outside the womb [though I do include mental health at this point].. exceptional circumstances only in that case [though exceptional circumstances do occur and should be allowed for].

And Orwell, just out of interest; if the woman hadn't noticed? Say, she were to be on a form of birth control that both stopped her periods and had let her down that time?
 
akuchi said:
but I like ambitions' stance on it. fair enough you've moral objections as long as you're actually not denying access to it.
in fact the more I think about it, the more I like it.
I'm just against needless death period. And I see abortion as a form a death because the fetus is going to be life. But thats where people disagree.

No laws against its though, thats just dumb.

How about we compromise and settle on this. From now on a nine month waiting period for abortions.....(sarcasm)
 
That's actually a very good question. When I was typing my response, I remember thinking that a woman could only not notice the growing baby if she was somewhat obese, in which case she wouldn't find out until labor. I hadn't considered someone actually finding out in late term.

I might tell her "tough it out" but in all seriousness I would most likely leave the decision completely up to her. Even if I was against it, I would just make sure to have had this conversation long beforehand if I was involved with her.
 
Honestly, there are bigger things for people to be worried about now adays than this. But I still stand by what I said before.

If a woman is raped who deserves to be killed? The rapist or the baby?

The rapist.

I may be Pro-Life, but I still think abortion should be legal. No one on Earth has the right to deny a woman to that and there is no fucking god you dumb asses so keep that shit outa here.
Wow man, some people like me, take that very offensively. If you don't believe in God, that's your problem, but there are people like me who do, so watch what you say. And btw, in the abortion case, saying that it's against God's will is a very valid argument.

Anyway, now that I got that out of my system, for abortion, I say it should only be allowed if the mother or the baby is going to die. I believe in life at conception, human cells are living things.
 
Obviously the anti-abortion position is untenable, and so I would like to introduce a more interesting debate.

The famous developmental psychologist Jean Piaget studied the emergence of self-consciousness in children, and found what we call self-awareness generally develops, at, say, twenty-three months. I find this important when one considers precisely why the anti-abortion opinion is so indefensible. The anti-abortionist presents a fetus (or, in some cases, an embryo or even a blastocyst!) as something essentially human, and therefore due the protections we as society afford to all humans. Yet this is wrong, because genetics alone cannot make a human, for example my skin cells have the right genetics but quite reasonably no one would mourn their loss. "Potential" to be human, perhaps, is what endows the fetus with humanity? No, because sperm and eggs are not considered human, despite their potential as well. Of course, whether or not the sperm and the egg are joined is of no special importance, either, because this just puts the process at a stage later, and is not the end of the process. One does not simply fertilize an egg and then find the baby finished, because there are still many steps for the parent to consciously continue. At any rate, potential for humanity is not humanity itself. Finally, abortion is not immoral not because "it should be a woman's choice," that is absurd. Were one to grant the fetus the rights of personhood, its physical location does not deprive it of those rights, and except in cases where the mother's life is in danger it would not even be an issue as to abortion's morality or immorality. This debate entirely rests on what we consider human.

Clearly, then, it is self-awareness that sets apart the human from the non-, although of course it is a spectrum. But, if self-awareness develops so late, as Piaget tells us, we have to consider whether infanticide is a moral evil. Of course, this must be rigidly constrained: the parent and the state would have to consent, and a necessary precondition would have to be a battery of tests to make absolutely sure the infant is not self-aware. And this would still be fallible, so just in case we would have to set a limit well before Piaget's twenty-three months.

To me, this does not seem at all to be a moral evil. That is not to say I would be capable of doing it, as I probably would not be: a baby's cuteness is an excellent defense mechanism. At the same time, though, it is clear that abortion is not a moral evil, and in seeing that it is not because of the reasons I've suggested, infanticide rigidly constrained would not be, either. In fact, it might be on the whole quite the moral good: for example, in cases of congenital disease or even autism, where the state and the parents would otherwise be forced to spend a lot of money for no real net good.

Infanticide seems to me the next great moral question, and when society at large considers it I hope we will not allow our innate repulsion to color our moral judgments in an irrational way.
 
Interesting, though I am a little confused; I think you're saying deontologically infanticide is not a moral evil [i.e. infanticide is not an evil act in itself]?

In which case, I'd agree..
 
Well deontologically definitely not, and I also tried to argue consequentially, though I would have to say a lot more about it.
 
Honestly, there are bigger things for people to be worried about now adays than this. But I still stand by what I said before.

If a woman is raped who deserves to be killed? The rapist or the baby?

The rapist.

I may be Pro-Life, but I still think abortion should be legal. No one on Earth has the right to deny a woman to that and there is no fucking god you dumb asses so keep that shit outa here.
This is flawed on a number of levels.

For one, rape is no longer a capital punishment. In 1977, the Supreme Court ruled that rape of adults was not punishable by death. In 2008, they ruled the same for rape of children, overturning laws in five states. So, the only way a rapist could get death is by suicide or revenge homicide, or whatever.

Second, a lot of rape comes from people we know, the stranger in the bush theory is really a myth. Dating friends, parents, etc. I do not speak in any way for rape victims, but I'm not sure if they'd want their lovers, parents dead for raping them.

Then, you seem to assume that all women who get pregnant from rape, and that those who give birth die in childbirth. This is a most ridiculous assumption or implication. Very few women die in childbirth. I'm not pro-life, but I'll quote their argument: the baby can always be given up for adoption.
 

Jibaku

Who let marco in here????
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I am extremely against abortion. Our class had a debate on this and it became a huge flamewar that lasted for days. Eventually we had to settle on a compromise, although that doesn't change my mind on how much I hate it.

I'll go and take pieces out of an essay some member in my class wrote

The numbers of babies destroyed by this act is unbelievable-over 1 million babies are killed each year-after the legalization of abortion in 1973. Furthermore, abortions based on the mother’s health account for 3% of abortions, and rape for 1% of the overall abortions in the United States. What does that leave the 96% with? It leaves the woman with the reasoning of selfishness. They’re incapable of providing a good reason why they wish to have abortion, let alone the reason for their well being. They simply feel that they’re inconvenienced by pregnancy.
That means that these people treat sex as something for pure pleasure, and when something goes wrong, they go and abort. This process can be repeated over and over to achieve the “ultimate” pleasure, but they certainly are not thinking about the criminal acts they have done.
Read this:
http://www.mrdata.net/books/9reasons.htm

Basically, abortion is murder. However, its decision to be legal or not completely rests in the hands of what defines a human.
 
Why is sex for "mere pleasure" wrong? And why must they provide any reason other than "I'd like to"? "I'm inconvenienced" is as good a justification for abortion as any.
 
Your second quote, I'm sorry to say, is fucking dumb. Women, almost as a rule, don't treat abortion as though it's something they can do on a whim just because they accidentally got pregnant. It's a huge decision: it's taken very seriously.

NO ONE just says "ok i like sex but hate babies ill just get aborshuns over an over its just a fetus lol." I hate to saound like a feminist, but you're speaking like a man who's INCREDIBLY ignorant about what women go through when they have a potential child in them.
 
Your second quote, I'm sorry to say, is fucking dumb. Women, almost as a rule, don't treat abortion as though it's something they can do on a whim just because they accidentally got pregnant. It's a huge decision: it's taken very seriously.

NO ONE just says "ok i like sex but hate babies ill just get aborshuns over an over its just a fetus lol." I hate to saound like a feminist, but you're speaking like a man who's INCREDIBLY ignorant about what women go through when they have a potential child in them.
Why does it matter if it's taken seriously or not? You're conceding more ground than you ought to.
 

Jibaku

Who let marco in here????
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
Why is sex for "mere pleasure" wrong? And why must they provide any reason other than "I'd like to"? "I'm inconvenienced" is as good a justification for abortion as any.
Then why would they act to do so in the first place. So what? I guess they're gonna go have fun, "accidentally" create life and then destroy it "just because"? Wasn't the sole reason for sex is to create babies and not for pleasure?

In other words, make your decisions before coming into the path of abortion and not.
 
I disagree with the practice on the basis of morality but making it illegal would be absolutely retarded. If a woman wants an abortion, she'll get one. I for one am not about to try to force my morals upon others, morality is, in the end, a personal ideal and a personal choice.

I will admit though, that I view babies (and fetuses) as animals and have no qualms about killing animals. I just disagree with killing something that has a chance to be something more, something possessing that sublime spark of self awareness just waiting to emerge.

I also happen to believe that challenges are presented to us for a reason. An unexpected child is a challenge like any other. It is triumphing over the challenges presented in life that makes life worth living, sidestepping them is ultimately the coward's path and not one that I'd ever endorse or expect another to take. I also have a bit of a personal feeling in this, my great grandma, grandma, mother, and even myself were unexpected children, my grandmother was 17 when she gave birth to my mother. One sidestep, one abortion in that line and I would not exist.

But again, legislating morality is not something any nation has any business doing.
 
Then why would they act to do so in the first place. So what? I guess they're gonna go have fun, "accidentally" create life and then destroy it "just because"? Wasn't the sole reason for sex is to create babies and not for pleasure?

In other words, make your decisions before coming into the path of abortion and not.
No, the sole reason for having sex isn't to "create babies and not for pleasure," pleasure is one of the myriad reasons for which people have sex. To not realize that is to be ignorant of your fellow man in such a profound way I wonder how you engage in conversation with anyone at all, it's like you're from a different planet.
 
I disagree with the practice on the basis of morality but making it illegal would be absolutely retarded. If a woman wants an abortion, she'll get one. I for one am not about to try to force my morals upon others, morality is, in the end, a personal ideal and a personal choice.

I will admit though, that I view babies (and fetuses) as animals and have no qualms about killing animals. I just disagree with killing something that has a chance to be something more, something possessing that sublime spark of self awareness just waiting to emerge.

I also happen to believe that challenges are presented to us for a reason. An unexpected child is a challenge like any other. It is triumphing over the challenges presented in life that makes life worth living, sidestepping them is ultimately the coward's path and not one that I'd ever endorse or expect another to take. I also have a bit of a personal feeling in this, my great grandma, grandma, mother, and even myself were unexpected children, my grandmother was 17 when she gave birth to my mother. One sidestep, one abortion in that line and I would not exist.

But again, legislating morality is not something any nation has any business doing.
Abortion is one surefire way to overcome the daunting challenge of pregnancy.
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
Then why would they act to do so in the first place. So what? I guess they're gonna go have fun, "accidentally" create life and then destroy it "just because"? Wasn't the sole reason for sex is to create babies and not for pleasure?

In other words, make your decisions before coming into the path of abortion and not.
OK, let's first set down that a fetus in utero is essentially a parasite. This is not up for debate, because "parasite", as defined by Merriam-Webster, is as follows.
Code:
Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.
A fetus leeches nutrients from the mother without giving her any benefits, is sheltered in her body, and grows there; it fits the definition of "parasite" precisely.

Now, let's say that, for some reason, someone intentionally swallows food that contains tapeworms. Does that mean that person no longer has the right to get rid of the tapeworm later?
 
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