The Concept of "Roles"

Tangerine

Tangerine

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Something that I have noticed with a lot of newer players is that they tend to trivialize team building into roles.

For example, people commonly use phrases like "Blissey is the Best Special Wall", "Gliscor is my Physical Wall", and other comments of a similar nature.

But can Pokemon really be simplified in that way?

Every Pokemon is unique in it's own way - although there may be quite a few overlaps. By simplifying each Pokemon into "roles" is that you are trivializing everything else the Pokemon might to - or at the very least, you are telling us that you are not taking into account the other things the Pokemon can do.

Things such as "Generic special wall/physical wall" cannot exist in D/P. I don't know how it was in ADV with "SkarmBliss", although I theorize that this concept of "sweeper, special wall, physical wall", is an artifact leftover from the ADV days.

Sure, people say Blissey is the best "Special Wall"... so what? The term itself means nothing to competitive Pokemon - especially now that every team has some way to get past Blissey. Blissey was used because it can do other things other than "Special Wall" - it paralyzes to slow down fast Pokemon, and is still an excellent way to deal with certain threats as CM Raikou. The term Special Wall trivializes anything else Blissey might do, and I feel as if it's not a very good term to use to describe Pokemon.

In the end, the question is this. Are such terms such as "Sweeper" "Mix Sweeper" "Wall" "tank" etc outdated?
 
tangerine is just a machine. he is firing threads left and right.

I have to agree with you. Many Pokemon names are outdated and I think we need to revamp names. pokemon have their own roles and we need to Idenitfy them as such. Names such as offensive sweeper, sponge, and wall do nothing now a days. We need to really be specific....

Sandstorm Stat up Sweeper - (Sets up usually in SS) Garchomp, Lucario

Status Sponge (walls attacks, spreads status, but doesnt do any real damage) - Cresselia, Blissey

Mixed Cleaner (kills walls and other pokemon at end of game with diverse and mixed attacks) - Infernape, Deoxys

Bulky Trap (traps the opponents but is able to take damage) - Bulky Magnezone, Wobbuffet

Quick Kill Trap (traps opponent and goes for quick kill) - Dugtrio, Weavile (pokemon with pursuit)

There are 100's of roles and although it would be hard to redefine every pokemon with a certain role, it could help more.

Really saying something is your defensive wall helps no more as anything can break through defensive walls. Even Garchomp 2hko bronzong with fire fang after a swords dance. bronzong would be a quick stop pokemon (comes in on attacks and threatens opponents to leave. Come in on earthquakes or dragon attacks from fast opponents).
 
I feel like they really are. When you think about it, some of the better teams are made without a pokemon fulfilling a certain role. The better teams select six pokes that can make their own offensive strategy while still being able to counter the biggest threats. I think that's one of the reasons why offensive teams can generally be more effective than what can commonly be considered the "Standard Team" of a Special Wall, Physical Wall, Mixed Tank, Special Sweeper, Physical Sweeper, and Mixed Sweeper. I remember that, back when I was making teams, these roles often lead me down the wrong track. However, once I discovered bulkier pokemon, I found out that sometimes, having a designated special wall was actually detrimental to both my playstyle and the way the team performed. Think about it, every team with a special sweeper of some form is just about always going to have some way to get around the major special walls whether it be through Exploding or Taunting or whatever. I'd much rather not waste the team slot of fulfilling this role and instead use a Calm Mind Jirachi of some sorts or a SpDef oriented Gallade to actually use the opponents "Special Sweepers" agaisnt them instead of just putting some "Special Wall" in front of them to get beaten by ordinary means. My two pennies.
 
Well, I'll have to disagree. (Me, disagree with Tangerine? Perish Song the thought!)

While the terms "Special Sweeper" "Special Wall" and their physical counterparts aren't all-inclusive, they're still useful in describing a Pokémon's general function. I'm pretty sure everyone who carries the Standard Blissey is using her for her talents as a Special Wall, with the paralysis, Wish (on non-Official Servers), and Serene Grace support secondary to her primary role of switching into almost all special sweepers unscathed.

So, if you are trying to say that no "generic wall" exists, you're right. But using the terms to describe a primary function of the Pokémon seems fine to me. I do think that in general every team needs something to take a few Special hits (a "Special Wall", even if it's for only a few special sweepers in particular), something to take a few physical hits ("Physical Wall"), and the like. I mean, there's nothing that can take all physical or special hits, but there are Pokémon that take hits from some X sweepers and counter them.

Uh... pretend that made sense.
 
I think I prefer when the terms are used as verbs than nouns, since you can get more specific that way.

"My Blissey walls special stuff, but also provides status or Stealth Rock support and occasionally heals itself or others."

At least putting it in terms like this helps polish up those RMT threads a bit, and someone with an alternative idea could say, "Wait, what about this move for that use?"
 
Tangerine said:
Sure, people say Blissey is the best "Special Wall"... so what? The term itself means nothing to competitive Pokemon - especially now that every team has some way to get past Blissey.

They did in R/S/E OU too...

In the end, the question is this. Are such terms such as "Sweeper" "Mix Sweeper" "Wall" "tank" etc outdated?
Click to expand...

I don't think they're outdated.

We address Blissey as a "special wall" because that is what it is. If your Blissey operates in another role, for example, Calm Mind sweeper, then notify that in your "Rate My Team" thread or where ever you have presented it. Blissey is unique to Cressilia in more ways than one, but they both fall into the "special wall" catagory because that is their primary objective - to wall special attacks. Infernape and Salamence are too unique in their own way, and both are capable of running different sets altogether, but when they're instructed and set out to attack with mix sets, they're both illustrated as a "mix sweeper" because that is what they are.

I know we can further detail indivudual Pokemon until we have around 300 terms for Pokemon, but is that necessary?
 
The terms may be outdated, but trying to use only one term to describe a Pokemon definitely is outdated. There are so many threats out there and so many things to account for that having a Pokemon fill only one "role" just isn't good enough. You can't have a single Pokemon do just one thing.

The one example that comes personally to me was the last RMT I posted (several months ago). The team I had posted featured a Thick Fat Hariyama with Brick Break / Whirlwind / Rest / Sleep Talk. It was my Tyranitar counter, status absorber, and PHazer all in one. That's just one example of a single Pokemon needing to fill multiple roles, and you can't affix one single term to fully define a Pokemon, anymore.
 
I think in some way, every pokemon has more to it than just one function.

We all know blissey can be a special wall, but it serves other roles as well. It can dish out status, it can use aromatherapy to heal the team, it can calm mind and sweep, sort of. When you really think about it, the lines have become a bit more blurry and a single pokemon can fufill more roles on a team.

I think general terms are useful for giving other players an idea what the pokemon excels at, but at the same time, labeling a pokemon to be one thing doesn't do justice to the amount of applications a pokemon can generally have.

Crobat is a good example. It serves all kinds of utility roles in a party, from hypnosis to hazing, or using nasty plot to boost it's stats, or using U-turn to switch between pokemon. With some really amazing resistances and predictable weaknesses, he can fit many roles on a team.

Paired with certain pokemon, he can absorb attacks and hypnosis/nasty plot on the switch. Sometimes a crobat lead can perform well even after being switched out later, giving it more functions. With 85/80/80 defenses, it can even be built to take hits and roost off hits. And it also learns pursuit to lay down revenge kills.

Not to turn this into a crobat discussion, but I think it's a good example of how certain roles overlap each other.
 
Tangerine needs his/her own sticky thread.

When one says "special wall" you assume Blissey in OU or Mantine/ Noctowl/ Hypno (...sorta) in UU. As I see it labeling them is not outdated. It is just easier to refer to as such. For example, the ever so common Blissey will, perhaps, have 2 varying moves T-wave/ Toxic and Seismic Toss/ Ice Beam; that doesn't mean that if I use T-Wave over Toxic Blissey is no longer a special sponge and certainly shouldn't mean I would have to go into more detail of how or why I chose one over the other. With smogon being a competitive site I'm sure one shouldn't have to much trouble of what each poke's niche is. Hopefully I'm makeing some kind of sense.
 
I only use them to describe what I'm using the Pokemon for...it's easier to say "I use Blissey to wall special attackers" rather than "My Blissey can soak up special attacks and heal itself and thunder wave and cause damage"

I guess kinda like what the above poster was saying.
 
A friend of mine is going to hate you for this, as he planned on posting something very similar to this, but w/e. Actually, I had something like this in mind as well, but he basically took over because "I didn't get it posted quickly enough".

He (kamikaen) and I have talked a lot about this, and there's a couple of different things we've come to disagree about. One of those such issues is the thought of a Pokemon fulfilling a role in competitive battling.

I myself have no problem calling Blissey a Special Wall, or Infernape a Mixed Sweeper. It's simply much easier than saying "a special-defense based Pokemon with a lot of HP and the ability to shut down almost any special-attack based Pokemon" or "a Pokemon that is in effect able to break through almost all defensive Pokemon that aren't faster than it". Calling something a "physical sweeper", although not detailed or all that descriptive, allows us to get the general idea across of what the Pokemon does.

In a similar manner to the "getting over the concept of countering" part in your Learning Curve thread (which I've yet to post in), though, classifying Pokemon with roles can also be a bad habit, and can only limit the battler from doing his/her best. Building a "role-team", as I've come to call it, is something all of the newer players do (I sure know I did), and it's a hard concept to get over.

Basically a role-team is a competitive team build with Pokemon just thrown together according to a set of role rules (say that ten times fast), such as "one special wall, one physical wall, one mixed attacker, one special attacker, one scarfer, and one physical attacker". The teams really have no effort put into the ideas of team synergy, countering (countering some of the bigger threats, or just generalized is necessary imo), or team purpose/goals. An example of such would be Gyarados/Blissey/Gliscor/Infernape/Celebi/Heatran.

Wait? That team above actually looks like it has some potential, right? Well, role teams can, but only through luck and chance. I actually have a really good quote from chatting with kami that says this whole paragraph better than I just did, but I'll wait until I get over on my other computer before I can get to it.

Some Pokemon are too diverse to be called by a role, which gives way to giving each individual set a nickname. Salamence would be a great example - you have MixMence, DDMence, SpecsMence, WishMence, CBMence, etc., there's just so much stuff it can do well that giving it a role wouldn't really do it justice.

I don't think that these terms are outdated at all, even though they may not be correct or the most descriptive way to group Pokemon. All in all these "roles" just make the general classification and sorting of Pokemon easier.
 
I strongly agree with Chris is Me here. These names might not cover every single thing the Pokemon can do, but they describe the general ability of the Pokemon in one word. Would you like to say "Blissey is my special wall", or list every single thing Blissey can do, and the Pokemon she counters? Or is the concept of "counters" 100% outdated now, too? I also think that most people use Blissey more for her special walling ability (which she alone can do to that degree) than her statusing prowess (let's name all the Pokes that learn status moves). So "special wall" describes her primary role.

Of course, building a team solely on "roles" is a bad idea; you have to know how to deal with certain threats, have decently synchronized type combinations, etc.. But I don't think that anyone decently experienced strings together six Pokemon using only roles.
 
So perhaps roles aren't outdated, but the concept of building a team on "special sweeper, physical sweeper, special wall, physical wall, tank, annoyer" kind of thing is?

Again for example, Blissey's just referred to as a special wall because it's what she's designed to be good at. Or Salamence is a good physical attacker. But Salamence can also be a very effective special attacker, and Blissey can do other things besides simply absorb special hits...

I don't know. This whole kerfuffle seems pretty silly and pointless.

It's not like anyone (here) says "No, you can't give Garchomp Draco Meteor because his attack is higher and he's a physical sweeper"
 
I dont think so, the terms are aimed at the general purpose of the pokemon in the team, and not defining its place in the metagame as such, there isnt anything wrong with using terms like that in regards to a pokemons job on a single team, or even summing up the general gist of the pokemon based on its most commonly used role.
 
ExoM7 said:
So perhaps roles aren't outdated, but the concept of building a team on "special sweeper, physical sweeper, special wall, physical wall, tank, annoyer" kind of thing is?
Click to expand...
Ah-ha, I was trying to say it like this, but I couldn't word it right for some reason.

This concept seems to be more of a problem to new players though, who get so caught up in the terminology of everything they forget what the switch button does. But since many people around here aren't new players, it seems to be less of an issue.
 
I agree with Tangerine on this. Pokemon's "Roles" really are a little outdated. Sure they are important, but they shouldn't limit your team building at all. The only "Roles" that I see as extremely important ones are a Stealth Rocker, because SR should really be on almost every team, and to a slight extent, a status absorber, such as RestTalker. Although RestTalkers are not mandatory, like a StealthRocker almost is, it is still a great thing to have on your team due to how common sleep is.
 
Roles are somewhat outdated, as long as you know your pokemon's general strengths and weaknesses. Obviously it is better to switch Gliscor into physical hits and Blissey into special ones(barring type trumps), and some Pokemon are designed to be offensive and not take hits at all. As long as you stop major threats filling the "roles" is fairly pointless anyway. Maybe roles are better for helping new players or something.
 
I think it's perfectly fine to keep those terms. If it's in the games coding for some pokemon to excel in some stats than areas, than its proof that, competitively at least, they SHOULD be used for those strengths. Whether it be massive def and HP or good speed and attack. Labeling them makes things convienent and easy to understand their strengths.
 
roles really only become a problem in team building. i prefer specific counters myself. you're not gonna wall everything physical with skarm for example. the only roles i find important are counters and stall breakers, both of which are very general.
 
What is the point of this? The different physical walls may be unique to eachother, but they're still physical walls, and fit the criteria for being such. Some walls use Stealth Rocks, some give para support, some give wish support etc, but they're primary function is to take as little damage as possible from physical attacks, and if they weren't doing that than they wouldn't be used on the team. The same can be said about the other roles you gave.

This is like a biologist saying that not all mammals are fuzzy and four legged, so we shouldn't classify animals as mammals anymore. Mammalian species may be unique, but they still fit the criteria for being "a mammal". Like Goodfella said, it's about convenience.
 
TVboyCanti said:
This is like a biologist saying that not all mammals are fuzzy and four legged, so we shouldn't classify animals as mammals anymore. Mammalian species may be unique, but they still fit the criteria for being "a mammal". Like Goodfella said, it's about convenience.
Click to expand...

Or this is more like pointing out the term "Mammal" means nothing when we're trying to use a Pokemon to maximize Synergy. "Hey, I'm going to use this Mammal to plow my field..." is what you'd get if you used your "analogy" within my context, and you can see why your analogy is a bit silly.

It wasn't like I was attempting to say "using them in discussions is outdated" - but rather "using them in respects to teambuilding is outdated".

Not sure why you sound so absolutely hostile in your response.
 
I completely agree with Tangerine. I hate it when people describe Garchomp as a "physical sweeper" and Heatran as a "Special sweeper", ect. These "roles" given to pokemon are stupid. Each pokemon has several things it can do, often individual pokemon can get just as deep as teambuliding itself.

For instance, people refer to ResTalk pokemon as a "status absorber" or "special/physical wall/tank". I'll use Heatran as an example here, because this is a pokemon I use quite often. So yes, you use Heatran to take some special hits. That doesn't make Heatran your special wall, or "tank" if you want. Heatran is a very valuable special attacker, even with just 350 SpA. And what about the ability to shrug off status effects, and use fire attackers/WoW to its advantage?

When it comes to "sweepers", I don't see why we use this term. Look at Garchomp for an easy example. Garchomp obviously has monsterous offense, but look at those defensive stats. Garchomp makes a great Stealth Rock user, takes advantage of Rest + Sleep Talk, and can work as a great counter to several pokemon (including the ever so dangerous CBTar to an extent).

But wait, what about those exceptionally fragile pokemon like Infernape and Azelf, who have great offensive stats? They MUST be used as sweepers, right? So what if you have Azelf set up stealth rock, and then U-turn to Dugtrio, bringing it back later to explode on Blissey so X attacker can sweep? I'd have to say Azelf didn't sweep there, but still did a hell of a job in the battle. What about Infernape? Encore and U-turn are a dangerous duo of attacks, ESPECIALLY with Infernape's speed.

So I got a little off topic, but these examples are still relevant. The use of these terms in team building, and in general is stupid.
 
I agree that terms like "Special Sweeper" and whatnot don't really define a Pokemon enough. On the idea of roles, though...what I often find myself doing is giving each Pokemon on a team several different "roles" based on opponent's teams. I usually want to have something that can take X Pokemon's attack (especially important for stuff like Dragon-type attacks which few Pokemon resist), I want to have Pokemon that can switch into Y walls and threaten them while not being at significant risk upon switching in, etc. That's about as close as I come to using roles when making a team, though trying to have Pokemon that can accomplish all of the little bits of team-building is one of the most important parts of the exercise itself, IMO.

I suppose the general role of "Special Wall" could be attributed to Blissey since Blissey will be able to take all special attacks with ease (with very few exceptions), and I can see how that would've made more sense in RSE where Skarmory was indeed a wall to most physical attackers (since it had no physical weaknesses especially). But something like Gliscor being a "physical wall"? Nah. Tank is an entirely different word, but since (as stated) I tend to dole out tasks for each Pokemon, that term loses it's meaning as well. I could have between 0 and 6 "Tanks" on any given team and have it play pretty effectively (though realistically I'd probably be using at least 2).
 
Tangerine said:
Or this is more like pointing out the term "Mammal" means nothing when we're trying to use a Pokemon to maximize Synergy. "Hey, I'm going to use this Mammal to plow my field..." is what you'd get if you used your "analogy" within my context, and you can see why your analogy is a bit silly.

It wasn't like I was attempting to say "using them in discussions is outdated" - but rather "using them in respects to teambuilding is outdated".

Not sure why you sound so absolutely hostile in your response.
Click to expand...
I'd love to see a whale plow a field.

That aside, I agree with you, Tangerine. Though the stats and movepool of a Pokemon can guide it towards a particular role, it's rather clear that many can be used for different purposes, under different circumstances. The terms can be used for certain Pokemon, but sometimes it can feel like shoehorning the idea.
 
I think it is depending on a situation. For example, a blissey, which currently lost its wishpassing ability, can only be described an excellent special wall. It shouldn't be called, "the special wall which can paralyze". I think Thunderwave isn't worth mentioning since more than a 100 can learn it and it's pretty common. Maybe with Aromatherapy it could be Cleric and special wall though that's besides the point.

However, with things like, for example tentacruel, lets say the spinner set.
A bulky Spiker and rapid spinner and a good Infernape counter. This is because it is multifunctional as a spinner rather than a plain ol' Special wall like blissey who only takes hits and heals. It isn't a special wall but it walls infernape.

Thus the usage of these terms should be situational rather than completely barred from usage.
 
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