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The First Smogon Council - Salamence

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Yeah, my claims are ridiculous. But so is the claim that Mence isn't uber because of SR damage. I guess we both get to make stupid arguments once in a while.
Yes, your claims are ridiculous, but the Mence one is not. You cannot use Mence arguments with Ho-oh because they are two very different Pokemon. They play completely differently. This is why you cannot say "Well the argument is ridiculous when applied to Ho-oh so therefore it ridiculous to apply it to Mence". That's like trying to compare Giratina-O to Gengar. "Oh look, they both have problems with Tyranitar", but they are two very different Pokemon and play completely differently to each, so you cannot compare them. Same thing applies to Mence and Ho-oh. Please, please compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

The idea that Salamence is OU solely or even primarily because of its weakness to Stealth Rock, Sandstorm, and Life Orb is just utterly asinine. Residual damage is important as far as tiering consideration goes, but it should be nothing more than a footnote in pro-OU arguments, instead of it being the primary issue, as is the case now.
It isn't the sole argument here. If you've read the last 65 pages, you will know that this isn't the only argument, although it is one of the most heavily weighted. Residual damage is a big theme in Salamence, yes, but there are plenty of other pro-OU arguments.
 
Well, I actually think it is perfectly reasonable to bring other pokemon into conversation. We've been talking about Infernape and Garchomp all thread. That said, I do think Ho-Oh is a bit off the right track for this discussion.

edit:

Going to Echo what Flare Blitz's points. Passive damage is not the definitive reason for Salamence's OU validity (though it should be considered as an important consideration), and yes the comparison to Ho-Oh does have a relation to discussion.

Ho-Oh also has Sacred Fire, a massive physical and special movepool (MASSIVE), and unlike Mence, it CAN make terrific use of Roost. While mence cannot afford to roost because it is liable to take massive damage from the incoming attack, Ho-Oh has the defensive stats (and just enough speed) to have a good chance at fixing its little SR problem all by itself.

One should keep in mind though that even without SR, Salamence is relatively controllable due its relative weakness to hits/status moves from the metagame as a whole (Salamence may not be easily walled, but then he can't wall anything either).

Where as pokemon like Latias and Garchomp had definitive opportunities to switch in (and set-up or blast away), there's no switch in that Salamence can make without a relatively high level of danger to its own person (whether it be attacks or status).
 
Cresselia and Sand Regirock were presented as two individual pokemon that could switch into either of Mence's sets and live to tell the tale
And you could send in Shedinja against any Kyogre set and win as well.

Second, Ho-oh has the option of running Earthquake
If I'm not mistaken, good prediction is another Pro OU argument for beating Mence. Like switching to Blissey when you expect Draco Meteor. Don't see why you can't use it here, just don't bring in Ttar when you think they'll EQ.

not to mention that it can burn Tar with Sacred Fire, crippling it.
Which actually still leaves it with a very high chance of a OHKO against Ho-oh.
 
And you could send in Shedinja against any Kyogre set and win as well.

You misunderstood. These were brought up to refute the "Mence has no counters" argument, not that the argument is too relevant in 4th gen anyway. And lol Shedinja.

If I'm not mistaken, good prediction is another Pro OU argument for beating Mence. Like switching to Blissey when you expect Draco Meteor. Don't see why you can't use it here, just don't bring in Ttar when you think they'll EQ.

Not quite as applicable in the Ho-oh vs. Tyranitar situation. Ho-oh has the bulk to switch out of a Stone Edge and come back later to Roost (especially since it is always run with Forry. Always.), having either severely injured or burned Tyranitar in the process. Salamence really doesn't have this luxury.

Not only that, but Mence really needs to be sure that it makes that Draco Meteor count, as putting itself at -2 SpA to kill some 1 HP suicide lead or already useless death fodder would be unfortunate, especially since it can't really switch into any attack without significant risk to itself.

Which actually still leaves it with a very high chance of a OHKO against Ho-oh.

So while Tyranitar CAN switch into Ho-oh's STABs...it isn't always wise to do so.
 
You misunderstood. These were brought up to refute the "Mence has no counters" argument, not that the argument is too relevant in 4th gen anyway. And lol Shedinja.
And the Pro Uber argument, if I'm not mistaken, is that these counters aren't viable. Just like how Shedinja isn't viable either.

Not quite as applicable in the Ho-oh vs. Tyranitar situation. Ho-oh has the bulk to switch out of a Stone Edge and come back later to Roost (especially since it is always run with Forry. Always.), having either severely injured or burned Tyranitar in the process. Salamence really doesn't have this luxury.
Why? After LO recoil, Sandstorm, and SR, it's coming back in with less than 40% of its max HP, the main Pro OU argument for Mence. Even less if uses Brave Bird. Is it really that much bulkier than Mence that it can still survive super effective attacks at 40%?

Also, "badly injured" only occurs if it uses EQ, which can be avoided since they'll most likely use Ho-oh's STAB attacks anyways. And those do less than 33% of TTar's max HP if I'm not mistaken. And a burned TTar still can OHKO Ho-oh.
So while Tyranitar CAN switch into Ho-oh's STABs...it isn't always wise to do so.
Let me change what I said before. When I said "very high chance of Stone Edge to OHKO after burn" it should've been "100% chance" because I forgot to include LO, Sandstorm, and even Brave Bird recoil damage.
 
The comments about Ho-Oh are becoming less and less relevant to Salamence.

Why? Because the argument about Cresselia and sand Regirock are relatively irrelevant to mence. Cress is not what makes OU, and there are a lot of factors that go into making Ho-Oh Uber that don't apply to mence.
 
Regardless of Cresselia or Regirock not being in OU, I'm almost sure that one of the Pro OU arguments was that you could use good prediction to bring down Mence. Say, bringing in Suicune when you expect DD or Fire Blast.

And with this same argument you can counter and take down Ho-Oh with Tyranitar.
 
Anyway. The same argument can't be applied since the Pro-Uber people made the comment that Salamence has no dependable counters. Which Cresselia and Regirock would be. Ho-Oh has them in Uber. While Mence has numerous checks, plus residual damage, that keep him from doing his job every single match, which doesn't really qualify him as Uber.
 
And you could send in Shedinja against any Kyogre set and win as well.

Kyogre can just run Toxic if Shedinja's such a problem. So unlike Cress and Regirock, Shedinja will lose to Kyogre if Kyogre really wanted to beat him, unlike Mence, who couldn't beat Cress and Regirock unless he gets a crit or something.
 
Why are we still talking about ho-oh Why are we still talking about ho-oh Why are we still talking about ho-oh Why are we still talking about ho-oh

seriously okay ho-oh hits as hard as salamence right? well guess what in addition to that HO-OH NORMALLY OUTSTALLS ITS UBER COUNTERPARTS OUT OF SUPER EFFECTIVE ATTACKS ALL THE TIME IN UBERS

STOP BRINGING UP HO-OH
 
Since the name "Ho-oh" seems to bring rage, I'll leave the name out of the rest of this post, because it won't take away from what's being said.

One of the Mence Pro OU argument is that Mence has two definite counters, Cresselia and Regirock. Right? Well as someone (actually, multiple people I think) have said, a Pokemon having counters or not really doesn't matter, and I agree. After all, here we have AN UBER WHOSE NAME WILL NOT BE MENTIONED SINCE IT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY FROM MY POINT that has a definite counter as well. And also an Uber who is also heavily affected by LO/SS/SR as well. And yet, IT'S STILL UBER.

Saying "WELL [THIS UBER] PLAYS DIFFERENTLY THAN MENCE AND IS SO DIFFERENT" doesn't even matter when it can still be reliably countered by a certain OU pokemon, because the argument is talking about having counters that can beat it. And yet, once again, IT'S STILL UBER even though it has a reliable counter, from a pokemon below its own tier, no less.

Also:
HO-OH NORMALLY OUTSTALLS ITS UBER COUNTERPARTS OUT OF SUPER EFFECTIVE ATTACKS ALL THE TIME IN UBERS
And yet loses to TTar almost all the time unless the TTar player is dumb enough to switch into EQ.

Go ahead and dodge the question all you want, it doesn't change the fact that we have an Uber with a counter from a lower-tier pokemon that's still Uber.
 
And yet loses to TTar almost all the time unless the TTar player is dumb enough to switch into EQ.
Ho-oh has a very good chance of stalling Stone Edge out of PP with Substitute and Roost, not to mention Sacred Fire can burn TTar.

After all, here we have AN UBER WHOSE NAME WILL NOT BE MENTIONED SINCE IT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY FROM MY POINT that has a definite counter as well. And also an Uber who is also heavily affected by LO/SS/SR as well. And yet, IT'S STILL UBER.

Saying "WELL [THIS UBER] PLAYS DIFFERENTLY THAN MENCE AND IS SO DIFFERENT" doesn't even matter when it can still be reliably countered by a certain OU pokemon, because the argument is talking about having counters that can beat it. And yet, once again, IT'S STILL UBER even though it has a reliable counter, from a pokemon below its own tier, no less.
I'm quite sure MoP is saying to stop comparing Mence to Ho-oh instead of just mentioning her name. Firstly, TTar does not reliably counter Ho-oh, see above. Secondly, LO/SS/BB recoil isn't like Mence's recoil, where if it loses its health, he's lost it forever. Ho-oh has the moveslot to run Roost (We're not arguing about Mence's Roost sets, because the general consensus is that they are not broken), so it automatically lasts longer than Mence. Again, like I've said to TheValkyries earlier, compare an apple to an apple. You're picking on small details that doesn't matter rather than looking at the big picture.
 
Since the name "Ho-oh" seems to bring rage, I'll leave the name out of the rest of this post, because it won't take away from what's being said.

One of the Mence Pro OU argument is that Mence has two definite counters, Cresselia and Regirock. Right? Well as someone (actually, multiple people I think) have said, a Pokemon having counters or not really doesn't matter, and I agree. After all, here we have AN UBER WHOSE NAME WILL NOT BE MENTIONED SINCE IT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY FROM MY POINT that has a definite counter as well. And also an Uber who is also heavily affected by LO/SS/SR as well. And yet, IT'S STILL UBER.

Saying "WELL [THIS UBER] PLAYS DIFFERENTLY THAN MENCE AND IS SO DIFFERENT" doesn't even matter when it can still be reliably countered by a certain OU pokemon, because the argument is talking about having counters that can beat it. And yet, once again, IT'S STILL UBER even though it has a reliable counter, from a pokemon below its own tier, no less.

Also:
And yet loses to TTar almost all the time unless the TTar player is dumb enough to switch into EQ.

Go ahead and dodge the question all you want, it doesn't change the fact that we have an Uber with a counter from a lower-tier pokemon that's still Uber.
The hilarious irony is that your crowd wanted Tyranitar and Blissey to be uber at the start of D/P.
 
The way I see it, Mence has two arguments:
Pro-uber:
Mence has no counters once it gets a DD in.
Counter: Just because it has no solid counters doesn't mean that it is uber.
Pro-OU:
Mence is worn down fast by residual damage.
Counter: [insert fire-flying uber] is also worn down by residual damage.
Defence: That uber is where it is because it has 1337 defenses.

Sorry if I seem noob, I've been lurking since January.
 
Ho-oh has a very good chance of stalling Stone Edge out of PP with Substitute and Roost, not to mention Sacred Fire can burn TTar.
And that's why I said "Use good prediction to switch in on Sacred Fire or Brave Bird so that you can outspeed it and OHKO with Stone Edge."

And Stone Edge is still a OHKO even after TTar gets burned.

Again, like I've said to TheValkyries earlier, compare an apple to an apple. You're picking on small details that doesn't matter rather than looking at the big picture.

And you're ignoring the fact that the specific pokemon that are being compared isn't my point, and I'm sure it wasn't Valkyries' point either.

The hilarious irony is that your crowd wanted Tyranitar and Blissey to be uber at the start of D/P.
Except Machamp says "Hi" to both of them.
 
The hilarious irony is that your crowd wanted Tyranitar and Blissey to be uber at the start of D/P.

You'd know, either of you having being around Smogon in early DP. Do you have any context for the Tyranitar and Blissey Uber discussions? Specifically the latter, which got zero improvements in DP?

My argument about banning Salamence has always been pretty simple. A variety of teams can be made that when Salamence appears in the game, one does not often take a drastic (as in game ruining, distinctly different from other pokemon consistently) hit from Salamence's presence. I don't really care to hear a theorymon argument about how Scizor gets beat by this, or how a bulky water gets beat by that, because theory doesn't matter and if Salamence wasn't honestly countered by these Pokemon I'd never win against a Salamence. On the same token, the metagame without Salamence is far more interesting, as there is newfound diversity, but you can say that for almost any powerful Pokemon. Also on the flip side, you really need to specialize to beat Salamence if you don't happen to already have a fast Scarfer and/or Scizor on your offensive team or balls of steel on a defensive team. So honestly? I'm fine either way. Hence why I'm not participating in the test; I would rather people with stronger opinions be making the decisions, as long as the decision makers aren't the people screaming down my throat about other Uber Pokemon relative to Salamence, the fact that Scizor isn't a paper counter (like that matters in battle at all), or whether or not Salamence is overcentralizing.

That's a simple request, right? :)

Oh, also: I imagine posting terrible arguments that run forever off topic in the thread will probably not due you any favors for applying to the Council. JMHO.
 
People, stop bringing up the Ho-Oh discussion. This is just bringing up pointless bantering. Anyways, I'm still waiting for an argument that would make me believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that Salamence is Uber. The only reason why it isn't to me is because, like many other wall breakers, it kills something and dies shortly afterward. In fact, I can name some wall breakers that can live to do its job several times.
 
People, stop bringing up the Ho-Oh discussion. This is just bringing up pointless bantering. Anyways, I'm still waiting for an argument that would make me believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that Salamence is Uber. The only reason why it isn't to me is because, like many other wall breakers, it kills something and dies shortly afterward. In fact, I can name some wall breakers that can live to do its job several times.

No. i don't believe that is correct. Infernape seems to come to mind right? infernape has a few COMPLETE counters and bunch of checks. Kingdra? kingdra has a few complete counters and a few checks. Salamence really doesn't have a complete counter.

The thing is switching into, AND THEN countering salamence is immensely difficult. Take the two "Best" counters to Mence that we've been arguing about here: Regirock and Cresselia. For the sake of reality, I'll only talk about cresselia because Regirock is usually over his head in OU.

Say your opponent switched in Salamence. If they have a DD salamence, switching in a Defensively ev'd cresselia is obviously a good idea. But, if its a mixmence with draco meteor, cresselia will be switching to a lot of damage. From there, sala can just switch out to a good cress counter, and roost later. Suppose you EV'd a cresselia to be ready to counter mixmence salamence. maybe that same cresselia will get taken out by a powerful Pursuit, Payback, or Uturn etc. Or by a powerful Outrage.

I can go on and on with scenarios here, but considering that Salamence has 2 equally dangerous sets (DD and Mix) which both can put any team in a very vulnerable position immediately, with no 100% sure way of being safe, i find salamence to be Uber.
 
@Other Wall Breakers-- Keeping in mind that how you based on how you build Infernape, it can destroy its counters. All starmie has to do is take a relatively small amount of passive damage and then switch into a Grass Knot (with Infernape prediction the switch in).

Physical Mixnape will destroy Tentacruel and Vaporeon if they try to switch into its Close Combat multiple times. It doesn't even need to use SD or bother trying to Stone Edge (or carry earthquake) for tentacruel.

@"Counters"-- Again, a paper counter is unnecessary to be considered OU. Frankly, most people are using the word "counter" incorrectly, because counter is supposed to refer to a pokemon who can switch into ANY set with relative impunity.

Frankly, Blissey cannot even counter every Starmie/Gengar set without relative impunity. Most OU offensive (and defensive as well for that matter) do not have a traditional paper counter. If not for the fact that we were all bashing heads against each other on a simulatory, fighting the same pool of people constantly, than the sets would be unpredictable enough that hard "countering" most threats would be an impossible notion . . .

. . . you know, like at the start of DP, where you DIDN'T know that the Lucario in front of you was Swords Dance and it might just Specs Luster Cannon your Gliscor to hell.

In any case, if you want to talk about pokemon who have no counters, I can list a bunch: Skarmory, Forretress, Breloom, Suicide Leads (lots of these right!?), Smeargle, double screen set-uppers, etc. etc.

. . . because by the time you've switched in, it's already DONE its job-- with a lot more insurance and dependability than Salamence trying to do its job.
 
Keeping in mind that how you based on how you build Infernape, it can destroy its counters. All starmie has to do is take a relatively small amount of passive damage and then switch into a Grass Knot (with Infernape prediction the switch in).

Physical Mixnape will destroy Tentacruel and Vaporeon if they try to switch into its Close Combat multiple times. It doesn't even need to use SD or bother trying to Stone Edge (or carry earthquake) for tentacruel.

At least infernape does have those counters who are reliable. I wanna quote what you said "Tentacruel and Vaporeon if they try to switch in multiple times" Lol, their switching in multiple times. You cant even switch in safely ONCE with salamence.

Just for the sake of comparision, i will name Pokemon who CAN exist as safe infernape counters/checks and Kingdra counters/check, because they seem to be the other wall breakers Mence is being wrongly compared to. Note that depending on how you ev these pokemon can determine how safe they are as counters.

Infernape counters: Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Starmie, Suicune, Zapdos, Gyarados, Salamence, Dragonite, and a few UU poison pokemon.

Kingdra counters: Empoleon, Celebi, Shaymin, Suicune, Vaporeon, Tangrowth (ha, sometimes. give him some love).

The point is, not including revenge killers (and even they dont work all the time), you dont even have ONE real truly safe Sala counter. the only remotely safe Mence counter, cresselia, can sometimes be baggage on your team, and even cresselia as a counter can be shaky in some situations.

Mence is Uber.
 
At least infernape does have those counters who are reliable. I wanna quote what you said "Tentacruel and Vaporeon if they try to switch in multiple times" Lol, their switching in multiple times. You cant even switch in safely ONCE with salamence.

Infernape counters: Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Starmie, Suicune, Zapdos, Gyarados, Salamence, Dragonite, and a few UU poison pokemon.

See, here's the key difference-- SR weak. Because Infernape lacks it, you have to counter it multiple times, because it can switch out with relatively little cost. In fact, that's one of the beautiful things about Infernape, playing him as a wall breaker that also can act like a more flexible choice pokemon, able to punch holes rivaling a Specs/Band poke (and potential U-Turn abuse), and be fairly free to switch out and back in again!

Salamence might be difficult to counter once, but then you really only have to counter it once-- or if mence gets forced out, the cost to it is much greater than for infernape.

Physical mix-nape can (will be) perfectly happy to Close Combat Tentacruel/Vappy to the face and switch out to do it again later all day. Try having mence do the same thing. Lets look at your list of Infernape counters, shall we (because some are pretty ridiculous):

Tentacruel: Takes 36-42% from Close Combat, 40-47% from Stone Edge coming from physicalmix Infernape. That's not even taking into account the possibility of a Swords Dance. Factoring in Stealth Rock, Infernape has a chance to kill Tentacruel outright. Even without going immediately for the kill, Nape can switch out, and guaranteed kill tentacruel the next time it tries to do that, without even touching stone edge, just by spamming Close Combat. And with no SR weak, Infernape is perfectly free to do this. Keep in mind that the same Tentacruel takes 20-24% from Overheat, so even if it switches into the most ideal move, 1 SR + 1 Close Combat (first time it switches in) + SR + Overheat + Close Combat (second time it switches in) = a dead tentacruel (even with minimum damage).

Vaporeon: 47.8% - 56.5% from Close Combat from Physical Mixnape, and if I were using physical, close combat would be my spamming move of choice. Assuming SR and Sand (to stop Vappy's Lefties recovery), Vaporeon is not countering this-- period.

Suicune: 53% - 62.9% from Special Nape's Grass Knot on Crocune, Suicune's bulkiest set. And now you know why Suicune does not like switching in directly into Infernape. Keeping in mind that the same Suicune takes 30% - 35.6% from special Infernape's Close Combat and 24-28% from its Fire Blast, so factor in Stealth Rock, and Suicune will be having a hard time countering Special Mixnape ONCE let alone twice. Physical does 35.6% - 41.8% with Close Combat, so unless you're using Rest, you are only countering physical mixnape once too (though you can guaranteed do it once, if you are sure the nape in question isn't a special one carrying grass knot).

Zapdos: Wait, what?? Zappy is taking 62.1% - 73.6% from Special Infernape's Fire Blast. Let's not go into Physical's Stone Edge. Factor in SR . . . no . . . Zappy has no business trying to counter Infernape.

Gyarados: Bulky Dancer takes 29.2% - 34.3% from Physcial Mixnape's Overheat. It takes 47.6% - 56.2% from -1 Stone Edge. Factor in SR, Gyara is dead. Even if it switches in on Close Combat, there's still a chance it could get killed. If you are using a different set, you are dead-- period.

Salamence/Dragonite: LOL, so you are going to switch in, take a hit from STAB Fire Blast/Overheat/Close Combat, take 25% from SR, and then try to survive an HP Ice or Stone Edge (nape's faster)? No f'ing way . . .

few UU pokemon: I think bringing Cress/Regi into Mence's discussion is irrelevant, so we won't bother talking about some pokemon who are probably even less relevant.

Starmie: I left this until the end because it's a bit of a special case (faster and has recover). Starmie has serious set-syndrom, as it cannot figure out whether it wants to be powerful or bulky, and people try to use it to check too many things. As a result, its strength to stop something like Infernape is also weakened. In any case, Starmie can find itself taking significant damage from Infernape depending on what it switches into. Grass Knot from the special set does 75.9% - 89.5%, so even a small amount of risidual damage could mean Starmie's demise. If it takes the time to recover, it leaves itself at the mercy of pokemon like ScarfTyranitar and Scizor who can take the chance to switch in. Ultimately, Starmie's weaknesses to Pursuit and U-Turn from Infernapes Team (or even Infernape's U-Turn), make it only a temporary wall to infernape at the VERY best. But, even with all those issues as an Infernape counter, Starmie is probably still the most solid Infernape counter . . . which I think speaks more for Infernape's awesomeness than Starmie.

Nothing on this list can really counter infernape multiple times, and because infernape lacks SR weak (and resists pursuit/u-turn for that matter), you pretty much HAVE to counter it multiple times a battle.

Before anyone bitches about me talking about multiple sets, Mixnape physical and special are both standard sets, and are more similar to each other than Mence's DD and Mixed sets that people keep bitching about being unpredictable. So yeah, don't go there.

Sorry this post is mostly about infernape, but the list of checks mentioned to nape should seriously be examined if you really think nape has solid counters and want to use that for argument.


ULTIMATELY-- a pokemon doesn't need solid counters to be OU. That's the bottom line, and the argument the pro-Uber side will have to find its way around.
 
ULTIMATELY-- a pokemon doesn't need solid counters to be OU. That's the bottom line, and the argument the pro-Uber side will have to find its way around.

I agree with this statement. I really do.

What the Pro-Ou arguers need to realize is that counterring/checking Salamence is a completely different task than counterring/ checking Infernape or Kingdra for instance.

You pulled out those numbers for infernape. yes they are very dangerous numbers alot of the time. But many of these Pokemon can recover or rest talk off damage and live to fight another day.

By the way, just because Infernape is not SR weak doesnt make him invulnerable. He is extremely extremely frail, and cannot recover. Before long, he gets down to OHKO range for most attacks from pokemon who can hit faster than him.

Salamence is relatively bulky, and can roost of damage if its a Mixmence. And, its harder to counter/check salamence, as you admitted.

Pro-OU people are trying to unfairly compare Salamence to other wallbreakers. This is not fair. they are completely different.
 
Kingdra counters: Empoleon, Celebi, Shaymin, Suicune, Vaporeon, Tangrowth (ha, sometimes. give him some love).

Not that it really matters how many counters a pokemon has, but do you realize that every single one of those supposed counters for Kingdra are totally screwed if they come in on a Modest SpecsDra's Draco Meteor?

I've been using Modest SpecsDra as a general wall-breaker for quite some time now, even when Latias was still allowed, and I personally find him to be a much less risky wall-breaker than MixMence, as long as you have something to get rid of Blissey (though she's screwed if it's a DD Kingdra).

Yes, MixMence is a lot stronger and faster, but a Draco Meteor off of 475 Special Attack (after Specs) still hurts like hell. Keep in mind that before Specs this is 317, only 2 less than Timid Latias. It even rips off 57% from the standard Agility Empoleon. Even against defensive ones, it still takes off about 40%, which is significant since Empoleon doesn't have recovery.

The main things that make SpecsDra a better wall-breaker than Salamence are:
1.) The lack of SR weakness
2.) The lack of weaknesses besides Dragon
3.) Two 4x resistances to Water and Fire (incredibly common attacking types)
4.) 2x resistance to Scizor's Bullet Punch.
5.) Perfect double STAB for screwing with Steel-type switch-ins

This naturally means that Kingdra can switch in many more times than Salamence, and fire off very powerful Draco Meteors. All of the Steel-type switch-ins take a buttload from Specs Surf or Hydro Pump, meaning that they're not safe switch-ins either. Also, unlike Latias, Kingdra actually gets STAB on the Water moves, so Steel-types are even less safe against Kingdra. It's amazing how many Skarmory have come in thinking Kingdra is DD, only to get destroyed by Specs Hydro Pump. This means that unlike Salamence, he gets perfect coverage with just his two STABs, instead of having to rely on non-STAB moves. Additionally, unlike Infernape, another wall-breaker, Kingdra has a lot of bulk, and great resistances (though they're few).

I guess that Kingdra's biggest problem is his Speed, but he's still faster than a lot of the walls, and nothing can actually switch in without losing a ton of health besides Blissey (though with extreme luck and a Sniper crit, even she's OHKOed, not that it matters much).

What am I trying to say here...perhaps Salamence and Dragonite aren't the only wall-breaking/sweeping Dragons in OU with zero switch-ins. However, we would never vote Kingdra uber, even though in many situations, he can perform his job better than Salamence. He even has much more survivability thanks to only 1 weakness, nice resistances, and lack of SR weakness.

I personally think that people are taking the support characteristic too far and think that because something can break a few walls, or has no easy switch-ins, it's uber. However, this is simply not true. What's ironic is that we never seemed to find wall-breaking broken in the least before the uber characteristics were introduced, and even then, we would only ban them when it was extreme, ie. Wobbuffet.
 
its just that its ridiculous. I cannot run a proper team anymore without carrying 2 pokemon to ease my life with dealing with salamence.

If i dont carry a bulky enough steel type (scizor and scarf tran arent bulky enough) ill be dying from Meteors and Outrages all day. And then, if i dont carry a good revenge killers or good priority user, i cant kill him.

add to that the fact that you need to be SUPERB with your predicition.

I just find that all this for one pokemon becomes a little much.
 
I agree with this statement. I really do.

What the Pro-Ou arguers need to realize is that counterring/checking Salamence is a completely different task than counterring/ checking Infernape or Kingdra for instance.

You pulled out those numbers for infernape. yes they are very dangerous numbers alot of the time. But many of these Pokemon can recover or rest talk off damage and live to fight another day.

Only Starmie, who has issues again. The others (as demonstrated) are all destroyed by at least one of the sets the first time, or are named Tentacruel and have no recovery (and still is potentially destroyed the first time by Physical Nape's Stone Edge).

By the way, just because Infernape is not SR weak doesnt make him invulnerable. He is extremely extremely frail, and cannot recover. Before long, he gets down to OHKO range for most attacks from pokemon who can hit faster than him.

Yeah, and? The point is relative to Mence he's got way more time on his hands (stamina). Infernape also sports a Bullet Punch Resist as well as a W-o-W immunity that gives him even more endurance.

Salamence is relatively bulky, and can roost of damage if its a Mixmence. And, its harder to counter/check salamence, as you admitted.

The best Pro-Uber commenters have already mentioned that Roost is really not a part of the equation, as it doesn't perform optimally on either of mence's sets, and mence can easily take 50% more from almost any common pokemon in OU-- it lacks the bulk to abuse roost, and using it with LO is even more unrealistic.

Infernape could run Slack Off! But no one mentions this because it's ridiculous-- and only slightly more ridiculous than roost Salamence for similar reasons.

Pro-OU people are trying to unfairly compare Salamence to other wallbreakers. This is not fair. they are completely different.

What's unfair? Also there's nothing wrong with mence being unique either.

edit: On another note, I now have to go RNG myself a Modest Sniper Kingdra. Those are some freaking impressive arguments Bologo. Am now pretty convinced that I need that Kingdra on my current team . . . instead of Offensive Suicune or Salamence who both didn't work in that slot . . .

edit 2: Ok, welcome to the team, kingdra. lol RNG
 
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