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The forgotten sibling
- Thread starter Myrmidon
- Start date
I wouldn't say Flareon is unsalvagable thats overall exaggerating. Its more a question of whether they will salvage it since it'd need a movepool revamp.
Flareon if it could get Flare Blitz or Sacred Fire, maybe Agility, Crunch to replace that crappy Bite would finally have some sort of use.
Flareon if it could get Flare Blitz or Sacred Fire, maybe Agility, Crunch to replace that crappy Bite would finally have some sort of use.
Arcanine can't hit 396 Attack; Fire is an awesome attacking type.
X-Act's point is that anything trying to sweep has got to either have the speed or sturdiness to follow through with its sweep.
Look at Ramparados. You don't see people saying, "Yeah, but Tyranitar can't hit 471 ATK. Rock is a great attack type."
Flare has neither speed nor toughness, while arcanine has both, and even arcanine is only a strong BL at the very best.
Look at Ramparados. You don't see people saying, "Yeah, but Tyranitar can't hit 471 ATK. Rock is a great attack type."
Flare has neither speed nor toughness, while arcanine has both, and even arcanine is only a strong BL at the very best.
65 speed maxed + nature = 251 speed, + salac boost = 376 speed, which is out-speeded by weavile, base 130's and almost anything carrying a choice scarf. not to mention the prominence of sandstorm and quick attack moves. subflail doesn't really work on anything not immune to sandstorm or without a decent amount of speed.
edit: pretty much what mekkah said.
edit: pretty much what mekkah said.
I was thinking more TR.
And Moltres isn't particularly quick or durable.
I grant base 90 speed isn't the fastest in the book...but 90/90/85 defenses aren't durable? That's almost the same as Zappy, with def swapped with spdef. Albeit, Moltres has a worse typing. :/
W/ TR you're talking set up now though, and for that you've got to be doing something that pays off a lot more. If I'm going to set up TR for something, it better be damn good. The aforementioned Ramparados is a better target for TR than "LOL, my return has more BP than my STAB'd attack" Flareon.
And what's your point about moltres? It's a 2nd-rater like Arcanine too (except arcanine's better :P).
pokes with base 50-70 speed are cursed
those are the worst possible speed stats a poke can have, they aren't fast enough to be good (some are) and then some are too fast for benefitting with TR
those are the worst possible speed stats a poke can have, they aren't fast enough to be good (some are) and then some are too fast for benefitting with TR
LOL
Was that a pun?
not intended to be
If only Eevee had Tyrogue syndrome, where it could cross-breed a few moves between its evolutions. Flareon w/ SubGility would help a little, I suppose. It sux that my favorite Eevee is the crappiest one. At least Glaceon has a place in Hail teams...
I think Flareon would have problems even if it could learn Leaf Blade, Ice Beam, Mean Look, Psychic and Thunderbolt. Poor lil' guy. :(
I have a good feeling that the special defense actually CAN be capitalized on. Fire does resist a lot of types that are mostly special, and Flareon has an immunity to one of them (fire). A resistance to Energy Ball/Grass Knot, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Flash Cannon (mostly Magnezone) and Bug Buzz (Yanmega), plus Ice Beam make it a very nice switch in on many things. Keep in mind that its weakness mainly lie on the more physically-oriented types with the only mostly special one being Water which is totally predictable. Just don't make it take physical hits unless it's a curseflareon.
Flareon actually works quite well with Breloom since Breloom resists every type that Flareon is weak to and can punish choice users in that way, plus Flareon can take two big super-effective types on Breloom in Fire and Ice.
Plus, if Flareon doesn't have the speed to sweep, why give him the speed then? Just let him be a curser, since that fixes up his crappy defense, make s the speed not matter, and raises his super-high attack. Quick Attack can become quite beastly after that, plus it has Fire Blast/Fang if Skarmory decides to show up. It also has Wish to restore its HP after its cursed up
.
Flareon has a lot of good support moves as well. Yawn is an awesome move. Heck, even Leer is a good move for Flareon since it can help to force switches, or if the opponent does switch, they'll face a huge hit.
Yeah, Flareon's not AS bad as people say it is. It does have a horrible physical movepool, but it has ways of getting around it. It's just a lot harder to use than the other Eeveelutions, that's all.
Flareon actually works quite well with Breloom since Breloom resists every type that Flareon is weak to and can punish choice users in that way, plus Flareon can take two big super-effective types on Breloom in Fire and Ice.
Plus, if Flareon doesn't have the speed to sweep, why give him the speed then? Just let him be a curser, since that fixes up his crappy defense, make s the speed not matter, and raises his super-high attack. Quick Attack can become quite beastly after that, plus it has Fire Blast/Fang if Skarmory decides to show up. It also has Wish to restore its HP after its cursed up
.
Flareon has a lot of good support moves as well. Yawn is an awesome move. Heck, even Leer is a good move for Flareon since it can help to force switches, or if the opponent does switch, they'll face a huge hit.
Yeah, Flareon's not AS bad as people say it is. It does have a horrible physical movepool, but it has ways of getting around it. It's just a lot harder to use than the other Eeveelutions, that's all.
Flareon even shuts down special Infernape. What can special Infernape do to Flareon? Flamethrower? Flareon is not only immune, but will get a boost. Grass Knot? Not only does Flareon resist that move, but doesn't weigh a lot meaning small damage. HP Ice? Flareon also resists this move. HP Electric to take care of Gyrados? Better, but no stab and/or super effective hit means very little damage.
Yeah, a lot of other pokes can also shut down special Infernape (Blissey for one), but this is at least one thing that Flareon can do and do well.
Yeah, a lot of other pokes can also shut down special Infernape (Blissey for one), but this is at least one thing that Flareon can do and do well.
Ha, I wanted to say what Bologo said, but I didn't know how to put it into words. xD
Well, I think Flareon would be most effective as an OU wall-breaker. At least some of them. Let's look through a small list, shall we?
Cresselia: Its normal moves do relatively little to Flareon, and it can use Yawn to prevent it from boosting with Charge Beam. While Bite and Leer are situational, in this case they get the job done. Base 95 SA isn't bad either, so it just use Shadow Ball and Fake Tears is also an option. Flareon can also use Wish for recovery.
Bronzong: Flareon, even with its poor speed, will outspeed Bonzong and will proceed to Yawn it and force a switch. If it has rest, Flareon can then proceed to Sleep Talk Fire Fang or Flamethrower until it dies. I haven't done damage calcs on either, since Bronzong will often carry Earthquake. If you do not wish to carry sleep, Flareon fortunately gets burn baby burn WoW to remedy its poor defenses. Such a shame it doesn't get Taunt.
Spiritomb: Not OU, but getting there. xD The standard set, iirc, is HP Fighting/Dark Pulse/WoW/Pain Split. A correctly predicted switch on the WoW, and gg Spiritomb, since the only thing it can do is Pain Split. Fortunately, Flareon gets Wish so it can set up on Tomb and shake off any damage.
Skarmory: I haven't done any calcs and this thing outspeeds Flareon. Ha. >_> It's really STAB Brave Bird vs STAB SE Flamethrower/Fire Blast. Some EV's into Defense and Speed should do the trick.
Blissey: Flareon outspeeds Blissey, so it can set up a Sub before Blissey can status, set up, and gg Blissey.
Celebi: The worst it can do to it is either Toxic or Perish Song.
Jirachi: The worst that I can think of atm is Toxic.
Forretress: Lawls.
Yes, there are many other things that can kill Flareon in OU but the rest of the team should be prepared for it. Nothing can counter everything, so the properly set up team can utilize it effectively. It screams for a few moves, but in no way is it 'unsalvagable' as someone has suggested. In fact, I wouldn't call anything with an attack superior to Heracross, Gyarados, Electivire, Donphan, and Weavile, and equal to Garchomp, Ho-oh, Breloom, Mamoswine and Machamp 'unsalvagable'. Its special defense and even HP are better than Spiritomb's, as well as its SD being superior to Gyara's (and with no 4x either) and of course Jirachi. Sure, it's not as fast as everything else, and its defenses do not constitute a tank, but on a properly constructed team, it can do well. And the use of Moltres tell you that SR weakness isn't a huge problem. Also, the people who say that Flareon will not improve even if it has a better movepool---Arcanine can't take that much of an advantage of its movepool like Flareon can. It doesn't get Baton Pass either. It's stats, in a way are too balanced---it's not particularily extraordinary in any one area, and that's why I never took a liking to it. Even a mere Leaf Blade would greatly improve Flareon, and it'd be perfect if it got Crunch. Base 95 SA isn't terrible either, it'd work great as a mixed sweeper.
@Mood: I want you to look at my Trick Room team in the face and say that. That's absolutely untrue.
Well, I think Flareon would be most effective as an OU wall-breaker. At least some of them. Let's look through a small list, shall we?
Cresselia: Its normal moves do relatively little to Flareon, and it can use Yawn to prevent it from boosting with Charge Beam. While Bite and Leer are situational, in this case they get the job done. Base 95 SA isn't bad either, so it just use Shadow Ball and Fake Tears is also an option. Flareon can also use Wish for recovery.
Bronzong: Flareon, even with its poor speed, will outspeed Bonzong and will proceed to Yawn it and force a switch. If it has rest, Flareon can then proceed to Sleep Talk Fire Fang or Flamethrower until it dies. I haven't done damage calcs on either, since Bronzong will often carry Earthquake. If you do not wish to carry sleep, Flareon fortunately gets burn baby burn WoW to remedy its poor defenses. Such a shame it doesn't get Taunt.
Spiritomb: Not OU, but getting there. xD The standard set, iirc, is HP Fighting/Dark Pulse/WoW/Pain Split. A correctly predicted switch on the WoW, and gg Spiritomb, since the only thing it can do is Pain Split. Fortunately, Flareon gets Wish so it can set up on Tomb and shake off any damage.
Skarmory: I haven't done any calcs and this thing outspeeds Flareon. Ha. >_> It's really STAB Brave Bird vs STAB SE Flamethrower/Fire Blast. Some EV's into Defense and Speed should do the trick.
Blissey: Flareon outspeeds Blissey, so it can set up a Sub before Blissey can status, set up, and gg Blissey.
Celebi: The worst it can do to it is either Toxic or Perish Song.
Jirachi: The worst that I can think of atm is Toxic.
Forretress: Lawls.
Yes, there are many other things that can kill Flareon in OU but the rest of the team should be prepared for it. Nothing can counter everything, so the properly set up team can utilize it effectively. It screams for a few moves, but in no way is it 'unsalvagable' as someone has suggested. In fact, I wouldn't call anything with an attack superior to Heracross, Gyarados, Electivire, Donphan, and Weavile, and equal to Garchomp, Ho-oh, Breloom, Mamoswine and Machamp 'unsalvagable'. Its special defense and even HP are better than Spiritomb's, as well as its SD being superior to Gyara's (and with no 4x either) and of course Jirachi. Sure, it's not as fast as everything else, and its defenses do not constitute a tank, but on a properly constructed team, it can do well. And the use of Moltres tell you that SR weakness isn't a huge problem. Also, the people who say that Flareon will not improve even if it has a better movepool---Arcanine can't take that much of an advantage of its movepool like Flareon can. It doesn't get Baton Pass either. It's stats, in a way are too balanced---it's not particularily extraordinary in any one area, and that's why I never took a liking to it. Even a mere Leaf Blade would greatly improve Flareon, and it'd be perfect if it got Crunch. Base 95 SA isn't terrible either, it'd work great as a mixed sweeper.
@Mood: I want you to look at my Trick Room team in the face and say that. That's absolutely untrue.
very good point Arcanine is not used nearly that much and beat Flareon in just about everything.
Why not use Entei then? It has comparable Special Defensive capabilities, much better defensive capabilities, and much better speed. It has also a comparable movepool. So your argument would be better used by Entei. See, even in this department, there's a better Pokemon than it, which nobody really uses!
Oh, and before people ask me "how is Entei's special defense comparable to Flareon's?":
Flareon has 65 base HP and 110 base SpDef: Statistical SpDef = (65/4+18)x(110+18) = 4384.
Entei has 115 base HP and 75 base SpDef: Statistical SpDef = (115/4+18)x(75+18) = 4347.75.
(This used my normalised base stats.)
To be fair, Entei lacks Flash Fire and Yawn, but I doubt that your argument was being based on these.
proven once again Flareon sucks my balls