Metagame The Loser's Game

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Just a question as someone who's not experienced with the meta, why's Magic Guard Skill Swap Zam not played? It looks like a good stopper, it can remove Magic Guard from itself to die while stopping another person from KOing theirselves with Steel Beam, Black Sludge and so on.
Magic Guard is a ban carried over from previous generations. Like others pointed out, there is exceedingly limited counterplay late-game for Alakazam to Skill Swap its Magic Guard. This is in part due to Skill Swap bypassing Substitute, as well as every form of self-damage besides like Perish Song is blocked by Magic Guard. Realistically, only faster Taunt users can prevent this win condition. It's possible that Magic Guard isn't as threatening this gen in the same way Misty Surge and Assault Vest were unbanned, but i'd prefer not to worry about it's inclusion this early into the meta.

Quick question: why is Magic Room banned? I scanned the thread but didn’t see much discussion on it, and if Steel Beam is the big threat in the meta I don’t see why item disruption should be banworthy.
Another ban that was carried over from last gen, Magic Room being able to disable the effects of Black Sludge / Sticky Barb is too centralizing and unhealthy for a metagame so reliant on these two items.

Here's one replay I found from the Stone Age of Sucide Cup:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-15212220
It seems like a consensus was reached really quickly into the meta's lifespan that it should be banned, and I haven't found any discussion of it since. Someone more experienced in this plz correct me if this isn't true.
Not a bad idea to spam Steel Beam but those IVs are concerning; Steal Beam + Substitute doesn't KO most of your mons there. Steel Beam users should have their HP divisible by 8 so that this combo works for them. Check out the sample sets for most of these mons or just add the minimum amount of IVs to make it divisible by 8 and this strat becomes a lot quicker.

Edit:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8thelosersgame-1293072232
here's an example where if the opp using that steel spam team had the right IVs, they probably would have beat me. But the wrong IVs made it too many turns and gave me a chance to win.

I'll be back with a post with more meta trends I've played or played against, really like the meta so far! Let us know what you've been using.
 
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Here's one replay I found from the Stone Age of Sucide Cup:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-15212220
It seems like a consensus was reached really quickly into the meta's lifespan that it should be banned, and I haven't found any discussion of it since. Someone more experienced in this plz correct me if this isn't true.
Thanks for the context! I also noticed a little dig at me in the battle chat...

Anyway, I see now why it's banned, but in a new gen with Court Change and Steel Beam, maybe we could reevaluate it if the meta gets too stale.
 
is there any reason there isn't an item clause implemented?
also why can people run no moves at all lol, that doesn't seem right
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

aka Ho3nConfirm3d
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a defending SCL Champion
is there any reason there isn't an item clause implemented?
also why can people run no moves at all lol, that doesn't seem right
Item clause would be extremely limiting, also arbitrary given most other Smogon metagames don't follow it. More specifically to Loser's Game, the most viable items are Toxic Orb, Black Slude, and Sticky Barb (for Poison-types). These three are extremely vital for Pokemon to achieve a self-KO, and they are the reason why there's a huge diversity of sets. An item clause would be counterintuitive and limit teambuilding further.

Like the above post points out, some Pokemon run sets like Assault Vest + Status or Belch and no berry to automatically trigger Struggle. This can be a viable strategy on a Pokemon like Trubish. Read its set and description for how it functions and why. Note though that auto-Struggle only has limited use and not every Pokemon can viably run it. It's best reserved for a Pokemon like Trubbish that covers a lot of good teambuilding perks like a Trick / Corrosive Gas / Knock Off switch-in, Taunt / Encore switch-in, and a way to punish Imprison + Substitute users that lack Heal Pulse.
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

aka Ho3nConfirm3d
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a defending SCL Champion
VR Update!

Here's an update that I made and was checked by Snafutari. It might not be perfect but it's a good start to the metagame. Below is the reasoning; I made it short when it was obvious and more verbose for some of the larger claims. I'll have this updated in the actual VR soon. Next I'll work on finishing up sample sets with descriptions, updating the role comp + with more roles like Trick and Magic Coat, and maybe another sample team update. As always, feel free to submit your own VR suggestions and teams!

:calyrex-shadow: S: This mon surpasses Mewtwo as the best Heal Pulse user thanks to its better Speed, access to Encore, and even its Ghost typing can be clutch to prevent it from being trapped. The two sets I've seen and used the most are Toxic Orb + Encore and Black Sludge + Taunt, with Heal Pulse / Substitute / Imprison all being givens. The Toxic Orb sets has good switch-ins to use Encore on slower Steel Beam users and Heal Pulse stall them, while the Taunt set is more fit for hit-and-run interactions, making Black Sludge the better item there. Realistically though either item for either move works great. The role of a fast Heal Pulse disruptor is one of the best way to get a head in the KO race, and with a faster Taunt for Cinderace or Encore for Belly Drum users, it's hard not to fit Calyrex-Shadow on every team. Easily the best the meta has to offer for general application, and I'd advise using it everywhere.

:sandshrew-alola: S: It's one dimensional but it works so well; a base 10 Special Attack means that nothing is being OHKOed by its Steel Beam. Alolan Sandshrew is practically a free pick anywhere because the vast majority of Pokemon can't stop it, and Steel Beam sacks like Impidimp and Cottonee are barely 2HKOed after Black Sludge. It's not impossible to deter it from 2HKOing itself with Sub + Steel Beam, or even just 2 Steel Beams, but it's far from likely and eventually inevitable. To add on top of all that, Alolan Sandshrew satisfies another niche as a Steel Beam sack itself, as stronger users like Klefki, Jirachi, and Zacian all OHKO it. With these two aspects in mind, Alolan Sanshrew has unparalleled levels of efficiency and opportunities for it to drop quick.

:xatu: S-: Magic Bounce is the best check to Heal Pulse users (amongst checking other status users), and Xatu is the best representative of the ability. A big part is its Flying typing, as it can't be trapped by Dugtrio and bounce back Stealth Rock. The other aspects are Tailwind and Teleport, which are phenomenal team support options that work so well together. It can be used offensively to bring in Trick Gothitelle onto more targets thanks to the Speed boost, and if Xatu has Imprison setup before Teleporting, then the opponent can't even use Substitute to block the Trick. Besides this scenario, Tailwind has a ton of perks just in general and can really glue the team together. It's hard to say if Xatu is as good as the other S tiers so S- is a better fit for it.

:accelgor: A+: Sticky Hold is awesome, as is its Speed tier. Passing Substitute is also great for the new Oblivious + Belly Drum users so that they don't get hit by Heal Pulse, and to a lesser extent works for some Steel Beam users too. Meta is still very favorable for Accelgor but it's not as necessary as before.

:impidimp: A+: Prankster, Prankster immunity, priority Taunt, and Steel Beam + Struggle sack. That's a ton of pros and value slapped onto a single mon, and it's easily the best Prankster mon because of these. It can even run a nasty priority Trick set that makes for an awesome late-game wincon, and because of its Steel Beam weakness, it can still be sacked vs faster teams that dont offer a practical opportunity for it to Trick.

:klefki: A+: Prankster + Imprison for a Steel Beam user has its own set of pros to it, and can specifically beat faster Imprison users as well as faster Taunt / Heal Pulse users with Magic Coat. It can even run Defog if the team needs an emergency Court Change check. Klefki circumvents its high SpA with these attributes, and easily makes it the second best Steal Beam.

:mewtwo: A+: Basically a second Calyrex-Shadow. There's a lot of good reasons to run two fast mons that run the same disruptive Heal Pulse sets, but it can be detrimental versus Trick teams. The two still work really well together but stack weaknesses that can be exploited.

:gothitelle: :gothita: A+: Trapping is a great strat.

:charizard: A: Belly Drum while still having another self KO option with Solar Power: clutch.

:slowpoke: A: Basically the frailest of the Slow mons, Belly Drum + Oblivious + Magic Coat is pretty reliable and quick.

:jirachi: A: Same tools as Klefki but no Prankster and worse stats. Use them together on Steel Beam spam.

:zacian: A: Faster Imprison + Steel Beam than Jirachi and even a Steel weakness. That still doesn't make it any better than it though due to lacking Magic Coat to prevent faster disruptive attempts, or even Encore and Baton Pass.

:sableye: A: In one way, Sableye step down from Impidimp and Cottonee because it isn't a Steel Beam sack. Still, it combines two aspects from these two as Dark-type Prankster user with Encore, and has the unique option in Imprison. Priority Imprison is super dangerous and Sableye's priority Substitute + Prankster immunity keeps it safe from Trick, so it still performs fantastic for that role.

:gardevoir: :ralts: A: Ralts is practically the frailest viable Steel Beam sack, while Gardevoir is frail too relative to Klefki and Jirachi but isn't trapped by Goth. Magic Coat patches their low Speed, and there's a ton of other great options to work with.

:comfey: A: Triage Floral Healing is super anti-meta as most anti-priority techs are Dark-types, and Imprison + Heal Pulse users can't block Floral Healing. It even has a ton of other great perks like Taunt, Encore, Tailwind, Defog, a Fairy typing, and a decent Speed.

:ribombee: :cutiefly: A: Sticky Web is a great support option, and these two can even get an edge on an incoming Magic Bounce user by setting up Imprison. Of course either their good Speed or super fraility combined with a Steel weakness also has a lot good for it, and keeping Trick in the back of the moveset could make sure these two aren't Trick fodder themselves, especially with Imprison setup!

:whimsicott: :cottonee: A: Prankster users with Encore. They aren't as versatile as Impidimp but do much of the same, so they end up working out great together, or works okay enough in place of Impidimp if you really want Encore. Cholophyl Cottonee also has a niche on sun teams.

:absol: A-: Perish passing is a neat strategy and can be great with Trick users in mind; both helping your own and your opponents. Absol is the best for this strat due to its Prankster immunity and access to Taunt and Magic Coat.

:magnemite: A-: Magic Coat again is great for Steel Beam users, and Magnemite's Magnet Pull has a cool niche of making opposing Steel-types stay in so that they don't switch to a sack. This can guarantee a trade and make Magnemite pretty safe to use versus some teams.

:kartana: A-: Tailwind and Defog are two really unique and valuable supportive options on Steel Beam spam. Kartana is also pretty fast as a Steal Beam user, getting an edge against Imprison Jirachi and Silvally.

:linoone-galar: A-: On paper, a super fast Dark-type with Taunt is the awesome anti-Prankster and Imprison tech, but it's ultimately a little slow in KOing itself. Parting Shot is great counterplay for Magic Bounce Imprison users, and being able to pivot after setting up a Substitute mitigates some of the damage issues with this mon.

:salazzle: A-: Oblivious with Taunt and Encore is super disruptive at its high Speed, allowing it to consistently punish most Imprison users. Its typing isn't great and it can be vulnerable to Trick, but it can be punishing itself with Knock Off against the right target.

:tapu fini: A-: Toxic Orb isn't the most popular item anymore, but Misty Surge is a decent way to disrupt it and get progress against any mon that's running it. Tapu Fini also has a phenomenal movepool like with Heal Pulse, and even its Trick weakness can be mitigated by running Trick itself.

:tapu lele: A-: Bringing the Prankster + Triage immunity to teammates like Calyrex-Shadow and Accelgor is a blessing. It's Steel weakness is only ok given its huge stats, but it holds its own through Taunt and Magic Coat.

:gengar: A-: Corrosive Gas and Curse is a great combo for a decently fast mon like Gengar, and it has a few other tricks up its sleeve to keep it relevant.

:hatterene: :hatenna: A-: Imprison + Magic Bounce + Heal Pulse is a killer combo, and while Baton Pass and Substitute helps a little, it's Goth weakness is a glaring flaw from making them comparable to Xatu.

:rapidash-galar: A-: Accomplishes much of what Calyrex-Shadow can but at a much lower Speed. Using Galarian Rapidash in conjunction with the better Imprison + Heal Pulse users works as it has a nice Steel weakness while still being faster than a good chunk of Steel Beam users.

:weezing-galar: A-: Semi-frail Steel Beam sack that checks the slower Oblivious Belly Drum users thanks to Neutralizing Gas + Taunt. It can also Taunt Xatu, and these three attributes make it pretty noteworthy.

:swoobat: A-: Klutz Skill Swap is a good way to gain momentum early on and force Steel Beam users to attack twice rather than rely on Substitute + Black Sludge to KO themselves.

:togedemaru: :silvally: :bronzor: :klink: :pawniard::cobalion: B+: Here are six alternative Steel Beam options that really don't shine as good as the better examples. Their pros, whether they be unique or stacking good attributes, are just done slightly better by or are not as good as the higher-ranked examples for the most part. Togedemaru is a weaker Jirachi without Imprison and Magic Coat. Silvally has Parting Shot and a lot of other good utilities like Magic Coat, but again the faster Jirachi is usually better in place of it. Bronzor is just a worse Alolan Sanshrew, but they work ok enough together as two super weak Steel Beamers. Klink is weak and frail with Magic Coat. Pawniard's Prankster immunity is nice to avoid Encore and Taunt from the frail Fairies. Cobalion is the fastest Steel Beam user with Taunt, which has some good matchups but nothing spectacular.

:persian-alola: B+: Very similar to Galarian Linoone as a Prankster check, and Roar + Parting Shot together is a consistent way to punish most Imprison users. A fast Taunt for slower Belly Drum and Imprison users is also clutch.

:liepard: :purrloin: B+: Prankster Dark-types are really good inherently, but comparatively these two are just outclassed and are reserved for the extra roles they offer rather than being the main providers. However, their best unique trait is Baton Pass, and both priority pivoting and passing Substitutes against Trick users could be pretty clutch and patch up teambuilding holes.

:walrein: :spheal: B+: Slowpoke is usually better than these two because Magic Coat secures more Belly Drum opportunities. These two instead look for windows to Belly Drum with Encore or Roar. That's not the worst tradeoff, and surely one can work together with Slowpoke when spamming Belly Drum.

:darmanitan-galar: B+: Sometimes a good defense to Taunt is to Taunt them first. Unfortunately for Galarian Darminitan, being immune to Taunt is really the best defense against it, and that's exactly what Slowpoke has with Oblivious. Galarian Darminitan can get pretty fast when in Zen Mode, and Taunt + Encore at this speed is a cool utility, but really there's still a ton of faster Taunt users that shut it down and cause it to lock into very strong Struggles. At least its Steel Beam weakness and low SpD is sometimes useful too.

:weavile: B+: Steel weakness, Dark-type, fast Taunt. Not that bad but lacks utility past this and it's not as frail as it like to be.

:jigglypuff: B+: There's a lot of great perks packed into one mon here, but the low Speed and trapping / Trick vulnerabilities does hinder it.

:swinub: B+: Steel Beam weakness and Oblivious Subsitute + Roar isn't too bad for a sack.

:trubbish: B+: Trick immunity + 3HKO is ok, and it would be a lot better if it wasn't so vulnerable to Heal Pulse late-game.

:stunky: B+: Good LC Dark-type with Taunt, Corrosive Gas, and Defog to round-out teams.

:ninetales: :petilil: :lilligant: :jynx: B: Sun is a good balance of damage dealing abilities in Solar Power and Dry Skin and fast Chlorophyl disruptors with Sleep Powder, Encore, and Taunt. These aspects cover a lot of bases teambuilding wise. The Chlorophyl sweepers of Petil / Liligent and Cottonee / Whimsicott are the fastest Encore users in the metagame under sun, and Charizard is another good mon to easily fit on sun teams that already holds its own. Even Ninetales is decent with Imprison / Encore / Roar. The only issue with sun teams is its weakness to Trick and lack of Steel Beam sacks, and given the limiting teambuilding options, sun ends up only being mediocre .

:cinderace: B: Court Change is a revolutionary move that every team preps for. But because of this preparation, Court Change teams are rarely effective. Defog is very easy to fit onto viable mons, which makes it near impossible for Court Change teams to make any progress. Meanwhile, if the opponent also caries Taunt users faster than Cinderace, then they can play with Stealth Rock up and always prevent Cinderace from swapping them. This makes Court Change teams counterproductive and easy to check, and ultimately they are heavily reliant on the opponent not prepping for them or for them to have just the right countermeasures for specific Taunt and Defog users; they can't check em all though.

:hawlucha: B: Mold Breaker Taunt / Encore is a great tech vs Magic Bounce Xatu, and Hawlucha can afford other decent utility options like Baton Pass and Defog. Past this great match up, Hawlucha is vulnerable to Trick and is a little slow to KO itself. It also is vulnerable to faster and Prankster users of Taunt and Imprison, making it hard to justify as a check to Xatu when say Belly Drum users are able to capitalize better on its passivity.

:amaura: B: The best case scenario with Amaura is to sack it to Steel Beam, which will still trigger Snow Warning and then be a great oppertunity to get in your Slush Rush Alolan Sandshrew. There's some limitations with this strat, especially given that Amaura is slow and vulnerable to Trick, but it also as decent utility in Encore / Roar in cases where it can't always be sacked right away.

:kommo-o: B: KOes itself quickly with Belly Drum + Clangorous Soul, but needs speed support to realistically pull this off and not be Taunted.

:espeon: B: A faster Xatu with the gimmicky Copycat.

:swirlix: B: Belly Drum + Magic Coat and weak to Steel Beam, but vulnerable to Taunt.

:froslass: B: Semi-frail Steel Beam sack with a decent Speed and moves with Taunt, Imprison, and Trick. Being slower than Zacian gives teams

:ninjask: B: Faster than Calyrex-Shadow and passes speed to teammates that need it like Goth.

:sigilyph: B-: Wonder Skin is too unreliable for it to be a consistent check to Taunt and Trick. Still worth checking out if you want to play the odds in a worst case scenario.

:dugtrio-alola: B-: Fastest Stealth Rock + Steal Beam on Court Change teams. Not as good as trapping imo.

:dugtrio: B-: Trapping with Stealth Rock is pretty much only as good as Court Change teams are, but Dugtrio isn't as mandatory because of other options to set SR.

:ferroseed: :honedge: :durant: :zamazenta: B-: These are some of the last viable Steel Beam users. Again, whatever niche they have is likely largely outclassed by the higher viable SB users. Ferroseed is as weak as Bronzor but lacks the utility movepool. Honedge is also pretty weak and can't be trapped thanks to its Ghost typing. Durant is as fast as Kartana and is a little weaker, but it's utility in Baton Pass is a ton worse compared to Tailwind and Defog. Zamazenta is Zacian 2.0 but without the Steel weakness, so at that point other Imprison + Steel Beam users like Jirachi and Silvally or much weaker users like Bronzor and Klink offer more utility than it. Only consider these as fringe sidegrades for the 4th or 5th Steel Beam user on the team and not much better than that.

:celebi: B-: Essentially a faster Absol without the Prankster immunity. Given that there's not many Taunt / Encore users between base 75 and 100 Speed, Absol's Prankster immunity is usually better.

:azelf: B-: A ton of utility but lacks anything unique compared to better users.

:ditto: B-: It's a reactionary mon that can play its way out of bad situations by Transforming into the right opponent but really it's not too special.

:blacephalon: C+: Mind Blown is extremely risky with how strong it is, and with no shortage of Steel Beam users it's hard to justify the risk. At least Encore + Taunt is somewhat helpful for lowering the risk and punishing Substitute.

:noivern: C+: Faster Taunt and Defog than Cinderace, but that's not the most relevant anymore.

:dragapult: C+: Fast Curse but nothing special.

:xerneas: C+: It has a few tools like Ingrain + Roar to make it ok on Perish Pass, but its huge stats and low Speed are often a detriment.

:heliolisk: :toxicroak: :croagunk: C: Niche sun alternatives.

:wimpod: C: Wimp Out is a niche way to generate momentum.

:ninetales-alola: C: A decently fast Steel Beam sack with good utility, but its high special bulk makes it compete too much with Amaura.

:pheromosa: C: The only Taunt user faster than Calyrex-Shadow. It's also pretty frail so that's a plus.

:snom: C: Steel Beam sack that's x4 weak to Stealth Rock for Court Change. Snom is a sitting duck otherwise.

:butterfree: C: Another Court Change team option that has a lot of utility, uniquely with Sleep Powder.

:tapu bulu: C: Grassy Terrain can be disruptive for opposing teams but it is hard to build with; the recovery goes both ways.

:Meowstic: C: Fastest Prankster + Imprison user, can check some of the other Prankster users this way. However, it succumbs to Taunt and Encore by not having these options nor being immune to Prankster itself, and it instead relies on Magic Coat and Trick for utility.

and that's all for now! Did we miss anything you think should be ranked? Note that something like Heatran is probably okay enough to use in Loser's Game, but its pros of Steal Beam + Taunt are done better by Cobalion, so it's not worth ranking. With that in mind, check the already ranked mons before making a nom to make sure the UR Pokemon isn't completely outclassed. Also note that some pre-evolutions like Natu and Alolan Digglet have some noteable pros over their evolutions, but in cases like these the LCs are still a little too niche to rank; unless you provide good reason otherwise!
 
I'll be repeating sets from the previous page because I believe these two mons should be ranked:

Aerodactyl for A
:ss/aerodactyl:
Aerodactyl @ Toxic Orb / Black Sludge
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Whirlwind / Tailwind / Sandstorm
- Defog / Stealth Rock / Tailwind / Sandstorm

Aerodactyl is tied for the fastest non-Prankster Taunt + Defog, which ensures that Dark-types cannot block its Defog just by switching in and also makes Aerodactyl a solid disruptor. Being cleanly OHKOd by Klefki's Steel Beam, being immune to Sticky Web and Arena Trap, and having a Stealth Rock weakness give it the edge over fellow tied-for-fastest mons Crobat and Tapu Koko. Aerodactyl can also provide speed control with Tailwind, phazing (e.g. Perish Pass check) with Whirlwind, or chip with Sandstorm. One more bonus is that Aerodactyl has the fastest Taunt + Stealth Rock in the game, which makes it a good idea for Court Change teams.

Abra for B
:ss/abra:
Abra @ Black Sludge
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty / Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Magic Coat
- Encore / Knock Off / Teleport

Abra is quite possibly the best Struggle fodder (and Knock Off fodder) in the game, along with being decent Steel Beam fodder. Its stunning ability to be OHKOd by opposing attacks makes it a great partner for the Goths. Magic Coat ensures that Abra isn't complete setup fodder despite its mediocre Speed, and Abra has access to solid disruption with Taunt, Encore, Knock Off, and more. Teleport gives Abra the ability to escape getting trapped. Naive notably lets Abra get OHKOd by Zacian's Steel Beam guaranteed after Black Sludge, while Hasty notably lets Abra get OHKOd guaranteed after Black Sludge by Struggles from opposing Timid Base 70 Attack mons such as Accelgor.
 
Endless Battle Clause needs to be tweaked for this meta specifically, it's far too easy to activate. EBC will activate if two Pokemon have used Heal Pulse on each other, at least one is trapped/the only remaining Pokemon, and the turn counter is past turn 100.

While most battles don't go past turn 100, I've had multiple games now force-drawn when Gothitelle tries to trap and pp stall something, and even one where I was 100% going to win that I "lost" because of EBC (I'm no longer running Leppa Berry due to this). Since my entire team is based around Trick + Heal Pulse, and this is a perfectly viable (albeit somewhat slow) strategy in this meta, the normal form of EBC is not appropriate for this meta.

I would like to reiterate that in none of these instances was an infinite battle going to actually happen.
 
This is probably a very dumb gimmick, but it's something that occurred to me upon reading that nothing is successfully OHKOed by A-Shrew's Steel Beam...

:ss/mr_mime_galar:
Mr. Mime-Galar @ Toxic Orb / Black Sludge
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Power Split
- Encore
- Taunt / Magic Coat
- Substitute / Teleport / Baton Pass / Trick / etc.

Galarian Mime is, incredibly, something in this meta that has reason to run EVs that aren't Speed. It hits a SpA of 279 with a Naive nature, which means that with Power Split, A-Shrew's Steel Beam is suddenly...

0- SpA Sandshrew-Alola Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mr. Mime-Galar: 272-324 (128.3 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

... a lot stronger. Its SpA rockets up from 22 to 150, meaning if it naively clicks Steel Beam, Mime is instantly dead - and if you can then trap it with something like Dugtrio...

0- SpA Sandshrew-Alola Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Dugtrio: 174-205 (96.6 - 113.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Conveniently, since Mime is naturally weak to SB, it's also cleanly OHKOed by other prominent users like Klefki and Zacian without needing to hit Power Split. It also has a surprising array of tech options, including Encore, Taunt, Magic Coat, Trick, Sub, Teleport, Baton Pass, Misty Terrain, Hail... It brings weaknesses to Knock Off and Stealth Rock as well, and Vital Spirit prevents it from being put to sleep. Unfortunately under hail Slush Rush A-Shrew outspeeds it, and it also can't really switch in directly on Steel Beam. G-Mime is the ideal for its family because it has the best Speed, a low HP stat, enough Sp. Attack to ensure that A-Shrew and other SB users can OHKO it, and the Ice/Psychic typing to make it weak to a bunch of relevant moves. It's definitely a one-trick pony, but it can get around being trapped, and given how good A-Shrew and other Steel Beamers are in this meta that one trick might be enough to carve out some kind of niche. Or maybe not, I don't really know.
 
:shuckle: The Quickest Possible Self-Kill :eject pack:

Competitiveness aside, how fast can you kill yourself in The Loser's Game? Most viable team archetypes aim to die in 12 turns by way of Belly Drum + Sub or Steel Beam + Steel Beam, but this takes 2 long and boring turns per Pokemon. Surely we can do better than that?

As it turns out, we can do much better! You might expect that in a standard game of Pokemon, it would take at least 6 turns to kill 6 Pokemon, even with the opponent helping out as much as possible, but it's actually possible to kill a full team of 6 Pokemon in just 2 turns using some fancy tech. Check out the following replay, which was made in UU in the time of dynamax but is still possible in AG:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1027268434 (Note that this replay involves a Shedinja, but it would still be 2 turns substituting Shedinja for any other grounded 4x rocks weak mon)

The secret sauce to fast self-kills is Sticky Web + Eject Pack. Eject Pack forces a Pokemon to switch out once it receives a stat drop, and Sticky Web lowers speed. What this means is that if a grounded Pokemon is 4x weak to rock, if Stealth Rock and Sticky Web are both up, it takes 50% from rocks, then receives a speed drop from webs and is ejected out, allowing it to die upon next switch-in without ever wasting a turn. If every Pokemon on your team is 4x weak to rock, you can chain this effect together and have them all die in 1 turn. Lovely!

Now, how do we translate this to The Loser's Game, where our opponent usually isn't trying to help us die? Court Change is a necessity, so we must include Cinderace. Family Clause restricts us to 3 grounded 4x rocks weak Pokemon (from the Frosmoth, Centiskorch, and Volcarona families). For rocks and webs, there are no options other than Shuckle, which fortunately for us is 2x weak to rocks. With these teambuilding restraints, it's possible to self-destruct on turn 9, three turns faster than the Steel Beam teams which take 12 turns to die.

Here's a game for comparison, where a Sticky Pack team dies in 8 turns to a Steel Beam team with 3 members alive at the end: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8thelosersgame-1295104029 (8 turns instead of 9 thanks to help from Steel Beam)

Of course, the problem with this strategy is that it is extremely easy to disrupt with Defog and Court Change, and without hazards up it is impossible to die with some mons. It's possible to make this team a little bit more resilient to Prankster Defog at the cost of speed by substituting one of your death fodder mons for a Dark type. If you'd like to give this team a go or try to optimize further, here's an importable: https://pokepast.es/976e26102e78b2b7

Happy laddering!
 

Yubellia

Banned deucer.
Been having a lot of fun with this metagame since experimenting with different mons and strategies is really unique and interesting considering the dynamic of this meta which made laddering fresh and fun depending on what type of teamstyle one is trying to attempt to use and counteract other styles and stuff like that. However, there are certain strategies that I would like to comment on that may be a bit too powerful at the current moment:


The Mewtwo on steroids, Calyrex-S is so abundant in this metagame and its rlly not hard to see why. Whether it chooses to run self-harming items like Black Sludge/Toxic Orb or disrupt opposing play via Trick Lefties/Pecha Berry or Choice items, Calyrex-S can really do it all thanks to its blistering speed that can really do it all in tandem with its amazing supportive movepool. The thing that really pushes it over the edge for me is its inability to be trapped by the likes of Gothitelle (one of the key components of the metagame that can help disrupt Toxic Orb stalling when paired with Tailwind support) and its ability to shut down so much counterplay thanks to Imprison + the variety of common support moves it runs that can shut down a ton of opposing mons like Sub, Taunt, Encore, Trick, and of course Heal Pulse. Thankfully, Prankster mons and Xatu do pose quite a threat to it since shutting it down with Taunt or bouncing back its own Taunt does hamper its ability to do much besides firing off moderately strong Struggles. However, Xatu being as prevalent as ever as a teammate for Calyrex-S really makes this a tricky strategy to pull of in fear of bouncing back the taunt towards the opponent. I feel Calyrex-S just brings too much to the table and is hard not to justify on the majority of teams because of this. I think we should highly consider either Quickbanning it or suspecting it in the near future in order to bring back some variety in the metagame and allow more reasonable variant of its (ie: Mewtwo) to take its place in order to promote metagame health and diversity.


I am mixed on this move. On one hand we have a move that nearly always guarantees a 50% chunk on multiple pokemon that can use the move effectively (mainly being Sandlash-A, Klefki, Zacian, and Bronzor to name a few) and can be really hard to stop without Imprison Klefki or trapping with Goth and praying you can out-heal the SB user before going down yourself. However, the metagame has been adapting and we have been seeing the usage of many SB weak threats that also provide a ton of utility on their own right, mainly being Impidimp, Ralts, Comfey, Ribombee/Comfey, and Swinub. However, I cannot stress enough on how effective SB still remains in the current metagame as even trading with the opponent by forcing their SB-weak threat in can open holes in the opposing team to allow other teammates such as Goth and Calyrex-S to just go ham and disrupt opposing play to a significant degree. I would not be opposed to suspecting the move down the line, but for now I do feel that the metagame can adapt to it a bit more thanks to the rise of threats like Imprison Klefki and moderate usage of Imprison Zacian, however I would still like for this move to be added on the watchlist since it does warp games to a significant degree when piloted properly.

Besides these two metagame threats, I think teambuilding has been really enjoyable and I love all the new strategies players have been coming up with thus far, although Court Change teams really have gone out of favor so I would advised against using them anymore.

Here are some teams for the funs of it:

Trubbish Balance


Imprison Klefki Standard

Have fun and keep laddering losers ;)
 
:shuckle: The Quickest Possible Self-Kill :eject pack:

Competitiveness aside, how fast can you kill yourself in The Loser's Game? Most viable team archetypes aim to die in 12 turns by way of Belly Drum + Sub or Steel Beam + Steel Beam, but this takes 2 long and boring turns per Pokemon. Surely we can do better than that?

As it turns out, we can do much better! You might expect that in a standard game of Pokemon, it would take at least 6 turns to kill 6 Pokemon, even with the opponent helping out as much as possible, but it's actually possible to kill a full team of 6 Pokemon in just 2 turns using some fancy tech. Check out the following replay, which was made in UU in the time of dynamax but is still possible in AG:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1027268434 (Note that this replay involves a Shedinja, but it would still be 2 turns substituting Shedinja for any other grounded 4x rocks weak mon)

The secret sauce to fast self-kills is Sticky Web + Eject Pack. Eject Pack forces a Pokemon to switch out once it receives a stat drop, and Sticky Web lowers speed. What this means is that if a grounded Pokemon is 4x weak to rock, if Stealth Rock and Sticky Web are both up, it takes 50% from rocks, then receives a speed drop from webs and is ejected out, allowing it to die upon next switch-in without ever wasting a turn. If every Pokemon on your team is 4x weak to rock, you can chain this effect together and have them all die in 1 turn. Lovely!

Now, how do we translate this to The Loser's Game, where our opponent usually isn't trying to help us die? Court Change is a necessity, so we must include Cinderace. Family Clause restricts us to 3 grounded 4x rocks weak Pokemon (from the Frosmoth, Centiskorch, and Volcarona families). For rocks and webs, there are no options other than Shuckle, which fortunately for us is 2x weak to rocks. With these teambuilding restraints, it's possible to self-destruct on turn 9, three turns faster than the Steel Beam teams which take 12 turns to die.

Here's a game for comparison, where a Sticky Pack team dies in 8 turns to a Steel Beam team with 3 members alive at the end: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8thelosersgame-1295104029 (8 turns instead of 9 thanks to help from Steel Beam)

Of course, the problem with this strategy is that it is extremely easy to disrupt with Defog and Court Change, and without hazards up it is impossible to die with some mons. It's possible to make this team a little bit more resilient to Prankster Defog at the cost of speed by substituting one of your death fodder mons for a Dark type. If you'd like to give this team a go or try to optimize further, here's an importable: https://pokepast.es/976e26102e78b2b7

Happy laddering!
The biggest problem here is every team carries Taunt users and can abuse the Rocks you give them. Taunt being such a centralizing force in TLG makes Court Change very difficult to pull off, without even taking into consideration the possibility of Defog users.
 
The biggest problem here is every team carries Taunt users and can abuse the Rocks you give them. Taunt being such a centralizing force in TLG makes Court Change very difficult to pull off, without even taking into consideration the possibility of Defog users.
There are many, many issues with the team; Taunt is not even the biggest problem. Goth can trap and eliminate Shuckle, rendering the whole team unable to kill itself, and Dugtrio can do a similar thing eliminating Cinderace. Defog is actually much less of an issue, since the team is able to fodder off Pokémon at will and deny a target for Defog.

The main point of the team is to have fun and showcase some cool mechanics. It’s a greedy and hilarious team that outspeeds the next fastest team so I thought it deserved a shoutout!
 

Hera

Make a move before they can make an act on you
is a Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
PUPL Champion
Hello there! Recently I've obtained the #2 position on ladder (proof) and I wanted to post the team I used while laddering.


Aloha! (Sandshrew-Alola) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Steel Beam
- Protect

Justice (Cobalion) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 4 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Steel Beam
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

Da Man (Darmanitan-Galar) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Zen Mode
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Substitute
- Encore
- Taunt

Ban Prankster (Sableye) @ Pecha Berry
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Trick
- Imprison
- Substitute
- Taunt

Boo (Calyrex-Shadow) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Imprison
- Substitute
- Heal Pulse
- Encore

Keys (Klefki) @ Pecha Berry
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Switcheroo
- Steel Beam
- Substitute
- Defog

This is a team with a solid gameplan and the ability to change up said gameplan depending on the matchup. Often, I find myself leading with Klefki or Cobalion to immediately pressure the opponent into sacking something, or choosing a more passive option while I kill myself. This works especially well against teams that rely on Impidimp for their Steel Beam sack, which paves the way for Sableye to win the game single handedly because it Tricks away one item. The rest of the team is just glue and to make sure something doesn't Struggle the Tricked mon by accident. Sandslash-A and Calyrex-S are amazing mons that provide so much flexibility, and Darmanitan-G is a secondary Steel Beam sack (despite the lack of Steel weaknesses, Sableye and Sandslash-A work just fine) that kills itself super easily against CC teams.

As for ban worthy things, I think the most problematic aspect of Loser's Game right now is Prankster. There's very little counterplay to something like Sableye Tricking away its Pecha/Lefties into something, apart from using your own Prankster users or Accelgor (Trubbish is bad stop using it). Prankster finds plenty of openings against stuff like Xatu, Trickless Calyrex, Hatenna, the Goth family, and can even Trick away the item of Steel Beam users if it needs to. I feel this is way too constraining when it comes teambuilding because you often have to stack up Dark-types + Accelgor or Trick/Corrosive Gas so the Prankster mon can never safely Trick anything, but the former can be worn down by their item unless you play super conservative with them, and the latter are forced to win 50/50s everytime a Prankster user comes in on them. The counterplay to Prankster is too limited, inconsistent, and constraining in the teambuilding.

As for Calyrex-S and Steel Beam, I don't see them as broken. The meta has adapted really well to Steel Beam, with two or more Steel Beam sacks being commonplace, and Klefki is a great stop to Steel Beam spam thanks to Imprison + Switcheroo. Not to mention how common Heal Pulse users are. In fact, I think Steel Beam is a very healthy addition, as it strengthens more offensive builds while having clear weaknesses that keep it from being overcentralizing. Calyrex-S I simply don't see as a problem. It has a lot of support options but hindered by Prankster, Magic Bounce, and random Imprison mons that it can't simply Heal Pulse stuff until it dies. I don't really have a coherent opinion on Calyrex other than I don't see it as an issue.

Finally, I saw some talk about it above but I think the Endless Battle Clause is bugged. Here's an example of a game that wasn't stale (I was probably going to lose), but ended on turn 100 anyway. I think it might need some tweaking if possible to ensure it works.

Thanks for reading!
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

aka Ho3nConfirm3d
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a defending SCL Champion
Teambuilding Guide in Loser's Game

This is a post I've been meaning to get out, especially after a ton of ladder games and experience with what I've seen so far. All in all, there are a lot of cool ideas both on the ladder and in the thread, but I want to go over the core roles pretty much every competitive Loser's Game team should have and common playstyles. Also, check the VR for sets!!! LTG is a metagame where Pokemon don't have too many valid options and alternatives, making the sample sets we put out pretty relevant to teambuilding. At the very least, try getting started with them and surely you'lll find success.


Roles to Fulfill
These are 11 roles that most teams should fulfill with their Pokemon to be viable in LTG, or there could be a glaring weakness that will cause you to lose to the wrong matchup. Some of these roles should even be fulfilled twice over or more! Now, doing all that with only 6 Pokemon sounds off, but rest assured that most viable Pokemon in LTG are capable of fulfilling multiple roles! Take Impidimp, which can accomplish 5 out of the 11 roles all by itself. Some of its attributes like its Taunt, Prankster immunity, and Steel Beam sack should have more representation on your team than just Impidimp. However, Impidimp works if you want it to be the only Prankster and Trick user on your team. This list is kinda ordered from most to least important, but really everything here is vital to keep in mind when teambuilding.

Taunt and Encore :gothitelle: :salazzle: :tapu fini:

Disruptive moves like Taunt and Encore are some of the most punishing and important moves to have; the more the better! Taunt prevents self harm moves like Substitute and Belly Drum, and triggering Struggle and Steel Beam can usually be in your favor if you play it with frail Pokemon. Is the foe about to use Substitute or Belly Drum and you have no immediate defense to it? Simple! Switch to an Encore user to punish them, which can be extremely frustrating for when Pokemon like Charizard and Alolan Sandshrew use Substitute first instead of Belly Drum / Steel Beam. Taunt and Encore are also a good defense, sometimes, to Trick, Heal Pulse, and Imprison. These moves should be pretty intuitive to any LTG player by now, but don't forget to have a good representation of both, especially at least one Encore user as that tends to be rarer.

Imprison :calyrex-shadow: :xatu: :sableye:

Imprison is arguably the best "setup" move in the meta due to blocking Substitute and other troublesome coverage. Substitute is so important for supportive Pokemon like Accelgor, Galarian Linoone, and Mewtoo as it's their main form of losing HP. If it's blocked by Imprison users, you can gain a great edge against these popular picks. Imprison also can have the niche of blocking other important moves like Steel Beam and Trick. Sometimes imprison is checked by Encore, Parting Shot, and Whirlwind / Roar, but each of these counterplay options are situational and may only apply to some Imprison users.

Prankster :klefki: :sableye: :impidimp:

Either for offensive or defensive options, Prankster is too good to pass up. "Offensive" Prankster Pokemon carry Trick and Switcheroo, which can be very hard to stop given the extra priority. Klefki is great with Switcheroo because even if it isn't able to lose its Pecha Berry, it's still able to KO itself with Steel Beam. Defensively, Prankster Substitute, Taunt, and Imprison are proactive defenses to faster Heal Pulse, Trick, Taunt, and Imprison users like Calyrex-Shadow, Mewtwo, and Xatu. Even better is that some of the best Prankster users satisfy other niches: Klefki has Imprison + Steel Beam, Sableye is immune to trapping and opposing Prankster Pokemon, and Impidimp is a great Steel Beam sack. Try to fit at least one of these on a team, as priority is a great asset in the meta

Heal Pulse / Floral Healing :calyrex-shadow: :mewtwo: :comfey:

When racing to lose all your mons, Heal Pulse and Floral Healing are some the most disruptive tactics in the meta. This is especially true late-game where Prankster + Substitute and Magic Bounce Pokemon might not be left to stop it, and the best users of these moves have either great Speed or Triage to make it hard to stop. Heal Pulse and Floral Healing are also great against Steel Beam spam, as it causes the faster healer to stall out Steel Beams while they take chunks of HP themselves. The problems with these three are their item dependency and inability to deter Magic Bounce users.

Magic Bounce :xatu: :hatenna: :espeon:

Magic Bounce is essentially the only reliable switch-in to Heal Pulse and Floral Healing. This is especially pertinent as some of the best Heal Pulse users like Calyrex-Shadow carry Imprison, making Substitute an invalid defensive if it isn't already up. Heal Pulse alone is a valid enough reason to keep a Magic Bounce user on your team, but also the general immunity to Taunt, Encore, and Corrosive Gas is always appreciated; bouncing back Corrosive Gas can be a deadly mistake for your opponent, but Taunt is more of a mixed bag depending on the situation and Struggle damage. Xatu is usually the best Magic Bounce representative, as its movepool and decent Speed are really valuable to teams. Hattena and Espeon are a little nicher, with their pros for the most part being Heal Pulse and a base 110 Speed, respectively. These Magic Bounce Pokemon are still vulnerable to trapping, Stealth Rock users bouncing the hazard back without the need of Court Change, and most importantly item removal. Always scout the set before switching into a Pokemon that could possibly run Trick or Knock Off!

Steel Beam / Belly Drum / Curse :sandshrew-alola: :slowpoke: :gengar:

It might seem odd to lump these three roles together, but they essentially accomplish the same effect: a fast way to 2HKO your Pokemon. Fast KOes are essential and are great ways to win the race so to speak. Steel Beam is the hardest to stop, Curse also has a negative effect, and Belly Drum is great but more susceptible to Taunt and Heal Pulse. Does a full team of these Pokemon work out as a quick way to KO your team? No. Full Steel Beam and the sort is easy for a well prepared team to get ahead on through sacks and Heal Pulse, and you'll find similar problems if you stack the other two as well. Its better to only have one to four of these, as you can ultimately support them better with different roles rather than stacking too many of the same Steel Beam users.

Anti-Priority :linoone-galar: :persian-alola: :tapu lele:

Prankster is the main form of priority to watch out for, so usually having a couple of Dark-types suffices. Otherwise, Tapu Lele extends the immunity to teammates, which can expand teambuilding possibilities. Heracross2.0 posted a great team right above me that shows off the potency of Prankster + Trick, and they even went on about how Prankster is worth considering for a ban. Speed-altering effects are always a tricky subject in this meta's history, but what makes Prankster balanced in my mind is the large amount of already viable Dark-types that work as safe switch-ins for them. It helps that a handful of Prankster Pokemon are also Dark-types, but there's a lot of good in having Galarian Linoone, Alolan Persian, Weavile, or Stunky as well. While Dark-types have the flaw of being vulnerable to other forms of item removal, especially with their Knock Off resistance, you can see how in games like this one a Dark-type like my Alolan Persian is still able to hold its own after losing its item and play around this vulnerability. There's even more to entertain, so as long as Dark-types stay relevant, I'm not too concerned with the priority Trick users.

Steel Beam Sacks :cottonee: :ralts: :cutiefly:

What's faster than the potent combo of Substitute + Steel Beam? Using Substitute on a fast Pokemon and switching into a frail Pokemon that's OHKOed by Steel Beam. This is just one of the few ways to actually gain traction versus Steel Beam spam teams, and Steel Beam sacks are integral to teambuilding. These frail LC Pokemon also double as valid Struggle switch-ins, and of course they have other valuable traits like Prankster, Heal Pulse, and Sticky Web. Some of the weakest Steel Beam users like Bronzor and Kartana OHKO Pokemon like Cottonee and Ralts, but the absolute weakest example of Alolan Sandshrew is the only one that lacks OHKOes. Stronger Steel Beam users like Jirachi and Klefki pick off less frail examples, and note that even neutral targets like Accelgor and Stunky are decent sacks to these as well.


Anti-Court Change :xatu: :kartana: :linoone-galar:

Court Change teams can be hit-or-miss, but that's largely because the playerbase has adapted to them by fitting Defoggers. Almost every team should have at least one Defogger. Sometimes Defog comes at the cost of more valuable coverage, like Xatu being a good Defogger but at the cost of moves like Tailwind or Trick. Others like Kartana fit Defog fine as they don't have anything better for the move slot. The alternative to Defog is having multiple faster-than-Cinderace Taunt users. I run Taunt Impidimp and Calyrex-Shadow and do okay against Court Change but it's cutting it close. Don't take Defoggers and fast Taunters for granted.

Item Removal :gothitelle: :weezing-galar: :accelgor:

Trick + Pecha Berry / Leftovers, Corrosive Gas, and Knock Off are severely threatening in a metagame where so many viable Pokemon rely on their item to accomplish a self-KO. There's also a ton of viable Pokemon like Calyrex-Shadow and Xatu that are vulnerable to these tactics, and it can potentially be game over the second they lose their item. However, item removal isn't entirely mandatory. It's an offensive strategy that has its own risks and rewards, which can be avoided all together. It also can fail against teams that heavily prep for it, or against teams like Steel Beam spam that doesn't really mind losing items. Also, item removal can be a defense to itself. In the event that something on your team loses its item and it couldn't afford to, you can return the favor and salvage yourself if you remove an item from your opponent's vulnerable Pokemon. In that regard, it's not a bad idea to at least keep some of the least comital item removal options like Knock Off and Corrosive Gas on your team; already viable Pokemon like Accelgor and Alolan Sandshrew are able to fit Knock Off pretty easily, for example.

Anti-Item Removal :accelgor: :trubbish: :absol:

The fact of the matter is that Trick, Corrosive Gas, and Knock Off are all very situational, and no one team absolutely needs to have Sticky Hold Accelgor or Trubbish as switch-ins to these moves. As I mentioned earlier, some of the best Trick users are Prankster Pokemon, meaning Dark-types already do enough for you. More over, any fast Substitute will be a great defense to these moves. There's also other ways to trigger a self-KO even without Black Sludge or Toxic Orb, like Perish Song + Baton Pass Absol or Sandstorm / Hail support. Pokemon like Impidimp and Cottonee may even run Trick themselves even when they're holding Black Sludge; it's a great defense vs Knock Off and Corrosive Gas, plus you can potentially give Black Sludge to a Poison-type for their Sticky Barb!

Playstyles

Standard :calyrex-shadow: :impidimp: :accelgor: :sandshrew-alola: :persian-alola: :xatu:

Here's an updated standard team that I topped ladder with. As for roles, I have everything checked at least once, and most roles at least twice. For example, I only have one Magic Bounce and Prankster user each, but that's fine enough. There's no Defogger but Taunt Impidimp and Calyrex along with Stealth Rock weak Pokemon that cary pivoting moves is all I need to check Court Change. Other roles like Anti-Priority and Taunt have multiple representatives. Standard teams should have a similar balance of roles like these. It's the best way to handle everything thrown at you while still having multiple opportunities to get ahead.

Steel Beam Spam :jirachi: :zacian: :klefki: :kartana: :calyrex-shadow: :espeon:

On teams with a ton of Steel Beam users, there's less need for defensive roles. Anti-Priority, Anti-Item Removal, and Steel Beam Sacks are less important as there's more unique work arounds to essentially do the same thing. For example, Steel Beam users don't always mind getting Tricked a Pecha Berry as they can still KO themselves, and fast Imprison + Steel Beam users check the slower examples well enough. This team here stacks Steel Beam + Imprison users to maximize that effect, and the final support from Calyrex-Shadow and Espeon is all that's needed; Copy Cat Espeon is a neat way for it to use Steel Beam situationally.

Court Change :cinderace: :xatu: :dugtrio-alola: :aerodactyl: :charizard: :butterfree:

Court Change teams have their own set of needs and wants, especially given that they need to formulate a way to combat fast Taunt and Defog users. They're less concerned about defenses to Heal Pulse and Trick as a result. They also need Pokemon that are x4 weak to Stealth Rock, as that's the quickest and most efficient way for the strat to work, and they also can be situational checks to Defog once they're able to be sacked. Stealth Rock setters themselves are also integral, and it's a good idea to have more than one. This team is one of my most successful Court Change builds yet, but it's far from perfect. The team couldn't afford a Prankster immunity, so Prankster Taunt Pokemon are very hard to deal with besides the situational Magic Bounce switch-in. I also opted for Flare Blitz on Cinderace as a way to eliminate Defoggers early on, and it even has a decent niche of heavy recoil to help make the trade more worthwhile. Tailwind support with Teleport from Xatu and Butterfree is also a great way to get Cinderace in against otherwise faster Taunt users like Calyrex-Shadow and Mewtoo.

Taunt Fodder :gothitelle: :xatu: :impidimp: :smoochum: :carvanha: :slurpuff:

Taunt is already a great move, but you never want to be in a situation where your opponent's Struggle causes them to lose more recoil damage than you lose from the actual attack. That's where Taunt Fodder teams come in handy, as they try to procure Struggle as much as possible, or at least benefit off the force switches they cause. Opponents won't want to use Struggle when LCs like Impidimp and Carvanha are OHKOed by even weaker Pokemon. Gothitelle is a star here because it can punish any Taunted Pokemon by preventing them from switching out, thus making it guaranteed for them to stay in and Struggle while you switch to frail LC Pokemon. Given that Gothitelle's Speed is bad, Tailwind and Sticky Web support broadens the scope of targets it can trap. Due to the liklihood of going down to Struggle, it's also less risky to fit Trick + Pecha Berry sets.

Sun :ninetales: :lilligant: :cottonee: :charizard: :jynx: :impidimp:

I wrote about Sun and what these accomplish earlier in the VR update post. This is the team that highlights a lot of those perks, and here you can see how vital roles are fulfilled with the team. This team is weak to fast Heal Pulse and Trick users, and instead it relies on the Chlorophyll disruptors to punish said users with Sleep Powder, Taunt, Encore, and Knock Off. This works when sun is up, but when it's gone there's more of a problem.

There's totally more ideas out there for playstyles but I'll leave it at this. I hope this guide helps anyone who wants to get better playing and building in LTG. In the near future, we'll address more about the concerns for bannable threats, and I'll continue to flesh out the VR for sample sets.
 

JonAmon 25

Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
is a Pre-Contributor
So I’ve been playing this metagame a lot in the past week and it’s been one of the best OMs I’ve played. There’s something that hasn’t been talked about at all despite being one of the most unhealthy parts of the metagame, with that being Alolan Sandshrew.

:ss/sandshrew alola:
Sandshrew-Alola @ Black Sludge
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Steel Beam
- Substitute
- Knock Off
- Hail / Protect​


Alolan Sandshrew is the perfect embodiment of why people think Steel Beam is broken. It’s almost impossible to stop it from fainting. It’s a Steel Beam user that is so incredibly weak that it cannot OHKO any mon and is frail enough to be a Steel Beam sack itself.
0- SpA Sandshrew-Alola Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Ralts: 102-120 (61.4 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Ferroseed Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Ralts: 212-252 (127.7 - 151.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Sandshrew-Alola Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Snom: 116-138 (68.2 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Ferroseed Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Snom: 246-290 (144.7 - 170.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Sandshrew-Alola Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Impidimp: 90-108 (45 - 54%) -- 36.7% chance to 2HKO
0- SpA Ferroseed Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Impidimp: 186-222 (93 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
That already removes one of the big reasons why Steel Beam isn’t broken, but Sandshrew also manages to not really be checked by Imprison + Steel Beam either because of Knock Off. If say, a Klefki, imprisons, the Sandshrew can Knock Off and effectively force it to Steel Beam and OHKO Shrew. (While universal between all SB users it’s still worth noting that Heal Pulse and Item Removal cannot stop Shrew from fainting due to Steel Beam outdamaging).

Overall, I don’t think Steel Beam in general isn’t banworthy. However, Alolan Sandshrew is way too good of an abuser of the move and I suggest it be banned.
 
Endless Battle Clause needs to be tweaked for this meta specifically, it's far too easy to activate. EBC will activate if two Pokemon have used Heal Pulse on each other, at least one is trapped/the only remaining Pokemon, and the turn counter is past turn 100.

While most battles don't go past turn 100, I've had multiple games now force-drawn when Gothitelle tries to trap and pp stall something, and even one where I was 100% going to win that I "lost" because of EBC (I'm no longer running Leppa Berry due to this). Since my entire team is based around Trick + Heal Pulse, and this is a perfectly viable (albeit somewhat slow) strategy in this meta, the normal form of EBC is not appropriate for this meta.

I would like to reiterate that in none of these instances was an infinite battle going to actually happen.
This is so funny that you mentioned that because I was just playing a game that met all of those standards. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8thelosersgame-1296516365
 
I think Lickitung deserves a spot somewhere on the viability rankings, even though it is strictly outclassed by Slowpoke, thanks to its access to Sandstorm, allowing it to self-KO or KO teammates if they lose their item. It should be stressed that Slowpoke can do this too with Hail (IMO lacking this ability is the main weakness of the Spheal line). Lickitung does have a few minor perks over Slowpoke (taking more damage from Steel Beam thanks lacking a resistance; Heal Bell to remove paralysis from teammates), but generally Slowpoke's larger and more unpredictable supporting movepool makes it superior. But if you're double-stacking Belly Drummers on you're team, then Lickitung is certainly a viable choice. Maybe high C.

Mostly for fun, here's a replay where the game is decided at the barest of bare margins thanks to Lickitung's Sandstorm (and maybe bad IVs?)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8thelosersgame-1296603022
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

aka Ho3nConfirm3d
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Would Misty Surge/ Misty Terrain be good to stop the self toxic orb setups?
Misty Surge is, but Misty Terrain isn't worth the move slot as pretty much every user of it has more reliable coverage instead. Tapu Fini has a niche with Misty Surge being an automatic setup to Misty Terrain, which is really its only niche over faster Heal Pulse users that also have better utility options.

While stopping Toxic Orb is nice, that item has been less popular than Black Sludge, and some teams don't even run it at all. Black Sludge offers more immediate damage, which pairs well with any hit-and-run strategy. The idea with Black Sludge is that Pokemon may get in, Substitute, and then prepare to switch out soon after when faced with a check. This constant shuffling allows for more Substitute use across your team and is a quick way for supportive Pokemon to KO themselves. In comparison, the residual damage from Toxic Orb takes a long while to catch up to Black Sludge's damage output, making Toxic Orb pretty slow.

That isn't to say that Toxic Orb is completely out of fashion. Of course Galarain Linoone will always use it to activate Quick Feet. More generally, it's a good idea to have at least one Toxic Orb Pokemon as a defense to item removal. Corrosive Gas, Knock Off, and Trick + Leftovers are very dangerous late-game, but a Toxic Orb teammate has a good defense versus them so long as they already activated the status.

So that makes Misty Surge come full circle and become a worthwhile strategy. It's still a tad matchup reliant, but that's why it's a good thing that Tapu Fini still functions on its own as a Heal Pulse user.
 
After playing about 100 games I've found a few interesting sets that help court change abuse teams, since the teambuilding guide discussed how they were becoming less viable. I think that strategy is really interesting and still has potential even with all of the counterplay:

Charizard @ Black Sludge
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Sunny Day
- Roar
- Tailwind
This is cool because with Roar, Charizard can force out Goth trappers and perish song users, which is sometimes able to give you an extra turn to get your cinderace in for free or to get rocks set up. You still get the easy KO potential of sunny drum. Tailwind is really great because you really want as much speed as you can in order to ensure that court change can go off, since Cinderace isn't insanely fast, but it does outspeed everything after a tailwind.

Ribombee @ Black Sludge
Ability: Shield Dust
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Defog
- Substitute
- Tailwind
- Imprison

Here's another cool tech to help your court change team. Imprison defog so that they can't defog on you. You trade the ability to bp subs for tailwind, which I consider of way more valuable because subs can be broken. Ribombee s probably a mandatory mon on court change abuse because it can also switch into most Steel Beams except for Sandshrew-A and at least get 2hkoed if not ohkoed.

Here is my importable, and I would love to take feedback because I haven't had great success with the team and want to improve it, I do think that there is potential for court change to make a comeback.

Diglett-Alola @ Black Sludge
Ability: Tangling Hair
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Stealth Rock
- Steel Beam
- Substitute
- Sandstorm

Ribombee @ Black Sludge
Ability: Shield Dust
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Defog
- Substitute
- Tailwind
- Imprison

Aerodactyl @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Tailwind
- Substitute

Gothorita @ Pecha Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Heal Pulse
- Substitute
- Trick
- Imprison

Cinderace @ Mental Herb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Court Change
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Flare Blitz

Charizard @ Black Sludge
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Sunny Day
- Roar
- Tailwind
 
Sorry, I would like to be removed from the council of this format, and to apologise to S1nn0hC0nfirm3d for being so inactive during this generation. I’ve realised that Mashups takes up all the time I can contribute to Showdown, and that unfortunately there is no prospect of that changing in the future.

Congratulations and well done to S1nn0hC0nfirm3d and the rest of the council for all their hard work on getting LCotM! Special shoutouts to Snafutari for being an amazing person.
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

aka Ho3nConfirm3d
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a defending SCL Champion

Alolan Sandshrew is banned from TLG! Tagging Kris to implement when you have time, thank you!

:sandshrew-alola::sandshrew-alola::sandshrew-alola:
By in large, Steel Beam users have one major flaw: Steel Beam is very strong and can OHKO many of the metagame’s frail Fairy-, Rock-, and Ice-types. This limitation does not apply to Alolan Sandshrew, as its astonishingly low base 10 Special Attack prevents it from OHKOing the frailest of LCs like Impidimp and Cottonee. It also has Knock Off, meaning even if these Fairy-types switch in on it expecting a Steel Beam, they can potentially lose their Black Sludge and be unable to KO themselves. And if that wasn’t enough, Alolan Sandshrew is a rare Steel Beam user with a Steel neutrality and very low special bulk, so it can easily function as a Steel Beam sack itself vs stronger users like Klefki and Kartana. These aspects make it thrive anywhere, and almost nothing can successively check it bar something like Imprison + Heal Pulse users, which also have to watch out for Knock Off themselves unless they’re Toxic Orb. After a good while of playing with it, Alolan Sandshrew is an easy candidate for a quick ban.

What now?

:sandslash-alola:
First and foremost, use Alolan Sandslash! The evolution also has a very low Special Attack, and is tied for the new second lowest amongst Steel Beam users. It even has a better Speed in comparison to its prevolution, which works well with Slush Rush + Hail. Past that, Alolan Sandslash is essentially a nerfed Alolan Sandshrew, which should be a welcomed addition. It has a significantly stronger Steel Beam and Knock Off, and it’s noticeably much bulkier.

:calyrex-shadow:
Calyrex-Shadow and Steel Beam will remain on the watchlist. Calyrex-Shadow is still centralizing and great itself, but its inherent Trick, Prankster, and weaker Struggler / Steel Beam weaknesses are enough to limit its potential.

:zacian:
Steel Beam will also stay on the watchlist. The strategy did get a small nerf with the recent ban, and thus Steel Beam spam teams should be slightly more manageable. From my experience, teams that spam Steel Beam often come down the the wire, where my wins or loses are extremely close and there was only a couple opportunities to get a head of pace. They’re also match up reliant; a team filled with weak Steel Beam users may beat one team, whereas spam with Imprison + Steel Beam would lose, or vice versa. The move itself is no doubt centralizing, but TLG is a very centralized meta as is, and Steel Beam users + sacks added an entire new dimension to gameplay this gen compared to last gen with Mind Blown Smeargle being the sole user of a comparable strategy. But even then, Mind Blown only had 2 users, whereas Steel Beam may fit a whole team of representatives. Nothing stops it bar Imprison, whereas Mind Blown had the niche Damp to stop it in a pinch. It’s plausible that something like a Steel Beam clause could be worked out, and we’ll do more work investigating the meta and OM tiering policy to see what’s the best next action for Steel Beam.

Have fun with the rest of the month's ladder :) I'l still be playing, so feel free to ask me for tips or teambuilding help whenever you see me on.
 

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