Gen 6 The Next Best Thing

[Prinz]

Approved by Sweep

Hey to everyone, I'm Alexander and I'll be your new host for The Next Best Thing thread. The goal of this thread is to find some creative and viable set of the Ubers mons, so any week I'll nominate a mon and you guys will have to post an underrated set of the pokèmon I nominated and then you have about 5 days to vote for the set you like more (would be good to see some reasons why you like it though). Don't post stupid gimmicks though like AV Ho-Oh, it's useless to post creative sets that won't work anyways (or that have 0 niches in the tier), remember that the sets you post should be creative but they should put some useful work as well. You also can comment at anyone's sets, but do it nicely too, and if you don't like the set anyone has posted, say the reasons why you don't like it and say how he can improve it (it's useless to post things like "that set sucks, you are garbage"). Finally, I hope this thread will be useful to find some good and creative sets, and that it will help to have some nice discussions as well.

That being said, The Next Best Thing this week is the whale pokèmon Primal Kyogre. You guys have 1 week to post sets, have fun :]

 

[Thugly Duckling]

I think POgre's a bitch to come up with different moves for since it can't hold items like regular Kyogre can and therefore its set options are rather limited, but this is a set that was pretty alright in XY and I'd imagine still works.

Kyogre @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind

(EVs can probably be tweaked around if you want)

This set is typically a massive issue for offense (and some stall) to handle once you remove their Primal Groudon. It sets up a Substitute on variants of Ferrothorn without Power Whip and basically just wins, as well as subbing on things like Tentacruel and Arceus-Water switch-ins so you don't just lose to them since you lack Thunder, and you also set up on Blissey since the uncommon Seismic Toss doesn't break your Substitutes. If this gets a free turn versus offense when their Primal Groudon is dead then something's probably gonna faint, and it also sets up on things like Roar-less Dialga and can be used to safely scout whether you're faster than the opponent's Primal Groudon. The niche of using those over something like Rest+Calm Mind+2 Attacks is that it isn't useless versus offense or teams that can pressure it enough when it's asleep for two turns; this set doesn't really require cleric support even though it lacks recovery. Good teammates are Toxic Spikes setters to wear down Primal Groudon and Pursuit users to trap Latios and Latias.

252 HP EVs are needed for 101 Subs (Kyogre's max HP is 404). If you want to speed creep you'd have to take EVs out of SpA, unfortunately. I doubt the power drop is significant, really.

 

[Iridiscent97]

I'm not really sure if I understood the requirements correctly; I'm going ahead regardless since I'm sure that I would be corrected by some of you if i'm not going about this the right way.

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue orb
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This is the RestTalk set that worked well in Gen5. I haven't really seen much of RestTalk Primal Kyogre in this meta, most of them being the offensive Calm mind variants, but I guess this could still work as a sleep-and-status absorber to take on Darkrai, Klefki, etc. and even sponge attacks from GeoXern in a pinch. I would say that if this set is underwhelming, it must be because the presence of primal Groudon makes this absolutely voided, forcing a switch and granting a free turn to the opponent. Still, I feel it sees good use as it is pretty self-sufficient and very difficult to wear down once you remove Primal Groudon.

 

[SparksBlade]

...take on Darkrai, Klefki, Ferrothorn...

Just pointing out that it doesn't take on Ferro
0 SpA Primal Kyogre Scald vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 82-97 (23.2 - 27.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Primal Kyogre Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 71-84 (20.1 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
the 2 types of Ferros, and they just Leech Seed and then set hazards while you aren't doing much to them, and while Ogre doesn't take much as it can just rest again, Ferro would've done its job while you didn't threaten it.
And as you yourself said, it's just a sitting duck in front of PDon, giving it a free turn. Though this set is actually not bad when you don't wanna use Ho-oh and need a sleep absorber, it isn't just that well cut out for the current meta.

edit(below): it gains more from leech seed than he loses to burn(about 1.78% more), but that's fair as well.

 

[Iridiscent97]

Point taken. Still, as underrated sets go, it isn't bad and can still do a decent job.

 

[Prinz]

Don't feel like it's necessary to make a votation between just 2 sets so I'm just noming the current week's next best thing (Mega Salamence, have fun discussing on it guys!).

 

[GnralLao]

Salamence @ Salamenceite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Roost

This set is used to spread paralysis and deal great amounts of damage upon your opponent's team, being able to paralyse everything with Body Slam bar Electric-types, which are destroyed by Earthquake (except Thundurus). The given spread allows MegaMence to generally take hits better on both ends of the spectrum (making it much more bulky), recover as much health as possible with Roost (again, making it much harder to take down), hit as hard as possible (making it even harder to switch into) and outspeed everything up to M-Mewtwo Y and neutral nature base 90s with Scarf at +1. Also, after paralyzing stuff, speed isn't a concern as much, so an Adamant nature and 16 Spe EVs are all that's really needed.

I'm not a casual Ubers player, so I might be completely wrong and that set might suck like no other, but I might be right and this set might work at some point. The point is that I really don't know and I wanted to break the ice for a creative set (I hope it is) for MegaMence.

 

[Starmei]

Salamence @ Salamenceite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Roost

This set is used to spread paralysis and deal great amounts of damage upon your opponent's team, being able to paralyse everything with Body Slam bar Electric-types, which are destroyed by Earthquake (except Thundurus). The given spread allows MegaMence to generally take hits better on both ends of the spectrum (making it much more bulky), recover as much health as possible with Roost (again, making it much harder to take down), hit as hard as possible (making it even harder to switch into) and outspeed everything up to M-Mewtwo Y and neutral nature base 90s with Scarf at +1. Also, after paralyzing stuff, speed isn't a concern as much, so an Adamant nature and 16 Spe EVs are all that's really needed.

I'm not a casual Ubers player, so I might be completely wrong and that set might suck like no other, but I might be right and this set might work at some point. The point is that I really don't know and I wanted to break the ice for a creative set (I hope it is) for MegaMence.

On DD Mence we usually prefer outright power in the form of Frustration or sometimes Double Edge. Body Slam is nice on a more bulky/defensive set but on DD damage is usually what you want. I haven't tried this set but when you're setting up a DD, you usually tend to want more ohkos and higher damage output than a 30% para chance.

As for the Evs, a more bulky spread is nice sometimes but I'd throw on a bit more speed. For example outspeeding something like Modest Xern or at least Adamant Ray before a DD.

Also on a more bulky DD set I'd lean more towards Refresh (or Sub) than EQ, just to avoid the constant status going around everywhere.

 

[Iridiscent97]

I'm still uncertain about this, but I'm going to submit Special MegaMence as my entry:

Specially based MixMence
Salamence @ Salamenceite
Ability: Intimidate (Aerilate)
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake / Draco Meteor / Double Edge
- Double Edge / Roost

While the Dragon Dance sets are the most threatening, and for good reason, a revert to the Gen4 MixMence set is still supremely effective, catching many of Salamence's counters off guard. Although a base 120 Special Attack is less powerful than a base 145 attack backed up by a boosting move, it is nevertheless more than respectable in its own right with Salamence's fantastic coverage.

Hyper Voice is the main move, getting an effective doubling of power from STAB and Aerilate and being even more spammable than Double Edge. It also has the bonus of bypassing substitutes. Fire Blast roasts Steel-types, particularly Skarmory and Bronzong, which wall the DD sets without worry. Draco Meteor is Salamence's strongest move, destroying Giratina-O, but not much else. Earthquake is better for threatening Rock Arceus and other bulky opponents which can live its other hits. Double Edge is preferable in the last slot, despite the redundancy, as it muscles through specially defensive opponents like bulky Primal Kyogre, Arceus forms, or the now-almost-nonexistant Chansey. It is especially beneficial since a majority of the Ubets tier is specially bulkier. Roost can be run over either of the last two moves to increase longevity if the aforementioned threats are covered. If not running Double Edge or Earthquake, a Timid nature is preferable.

This set is, in my opinion, underrated not because it is bad but because the DD sets are simply so much more powerful. Yet I feel that this set certainly is one of the more viable wallbreaking alternatives that can be used without shame.

 

[brokenwings]

I'm still uncertain about this, but I'm going to submit Special MegaMence as my entry:

Specially based MixMence
Salamence @ Salamenceite
Ability: Intimidate (Aerilate)
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor / Double Edge
- Double Edge / Roost

While the Dragon Dance sets are the most threatening, and for good reason, a revert to the Gen4 MixMence set is still supremely effective, catching many of Salamence's counters off guard. Although a base 120 Special Attack is less powerful than a base 145 attack backed up by a boosting move, it is nevertheless more than respectable in its own right with Salamence's fantastic coverage.

Hyper Voice is the main move, getting an effective doubling of power from STAB and Aerilate and being even more spammable than Double Edge. It also has the bonus of bypassing substitutes. Fire Blast roasts Steel-types, particularly Skarmory and Bronzong, which wall the DD sets without worry. Draco Meteor is Salamence's strongest move, destroying Giratina-O and threatening Rock Arceus and other bulky opponents which can live its other hits. Double Edge is preferable in the last slot, despite the redundancy, as it muscles through specially defensive opponents like bulky Primal Kyogre, Arceus forms, or the now-almost-nonexistant Chansey. It is especially beneficial since a majority of the Ubets tier is specially bulkier. Roost can be run over either of the last two moves to increase longevity if the aforementioned threats are covered. If not running Double Edge, a Timid nature is preferable.

This set is, in my opinion, underrated not because it is bad but because the DD sets are simply so much more powerful. Yet I feel that this set certainly is one of the more viable wallbreaking alternatives that can be used witout shame.

I'm not convinced that this is an effective set. Bronzong and Skarmory are both incredibly uncommon as it is, and Arceus-Rock takes pitiful damage from Draco Meteor (38.7 - 45.9%). You're better off using a physical set in almost any scenario I can think of, as Salamence can already muscle through most bulky mons after a boost or two. Fire Blast itself could possibly work on a Mixed DD set, but I really don't think Skarmory is common enough to justify giving up a moveslot for it when Earthquake and Roost are much more useful.

 

[Iridiscent97]

Well, I agree with you quite completely on that. That's probably the reason why Special Salamence isn't really used. In fact, I admitted to the fact that the DD sets are enormously more powerful. It's just that this is one of the sets I could recall that can work, if only for the surprise factor - but then, almost any Salamence set could work, seeing as it is so versatile.

In any case, I'll alter the set to prioritize Earthquake, as Dragon STAB is not so useful on salamence in most cases. Thank you for your concern!

 

[Iridiscent97]

On a point of order, can one post multiple entries, or is one restricted to a single nomination?

 

[Lemonade]

On a point of order, can one post multiple entries, or is one restricted to a single nomination?

IMO it's fine but you should wait like a day just in case other people want to post and have a similar idea as you. Ultimately NBT is about sharing sets rather than trying to win the most votes, but you do want to give other people opportunities as well.

 

[Iridiscent97]

Thanks very much for clarifying that; I of course won't want to hog votes or posts at all. I am only glad that I am allowed to share my ideas; I will accept your suggestion and wait for my turn.

 

[Prinz]

Sorry for the delay, guys. You can start now to discuss about Darkrai if you want to, tbh rly don't feel like a votation is needed as the sets posted are never more than two :[

 

[Kejmur]

I'm still uncertain about this, but I'm going to submit Special MegaMence as my entry:

Specially based MixMence
Salamence @ Salamenceite
Ability: Intimidate (Aerilate)
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake / Draco Meteor / Double Edge
- Double Edge / Roost

While the Dragon Dance sets are the most threatening, and for good reason, a revert to the Gen4 MixMence set is still supremely effective, catching many of Salamence's counters off guard. Although a base 120 Special Attack is less powerful than a base 145 attack backed up by a boosting move, it is nevertheless more than respectable in its own right with Salamence's fantastic coverage.

Hyper Voice is the main move, getting an effective doubling of power from STAB and Aerilate and being even more spammable than Double Edge. It also has the bonus of bypassing substitutes. Fire Blast roasts Steel-types, particularly Skarmory and Bronzong, which wall the DD sets without worry. Draco Meteor is Salamence's strongest move, destroying Giratina-O, but not much else. Earthquake is better for threatening Rock Arceus and other bulky opponents which can live its other hits. Double Edge is preferable in the last slot, despite the redundancy, as it muscles through specially defensive opponents like bulky Primal Kyogre, Arceus forms, or the now-almost-nonexistant Chansey. It is especially beneficial since a majority of the Ubets tier is specially bulkier. Roost can be run over either of the last two moves to increase longevity if the aforementioned threats are covered. If not running Double Edge or Earthquake, a Timid nature is preferable.

This set is, in my opinion, underrated not because it is bad but because the DD sets are simply so much more powerful. Yet I feel that this set certainly is one of the more viable wallbreaking alternatives that can be used without shame.

If main reason of Earthquake is Rock Arceus, why not just run Hydro Pump here ? It should hit harder then Earthquake with pretty much zero investment. Also it hits Heatran (not common, but it still may show up once in a while) for SE damage hard enough. Although I have no idea if Hydro Pump isn't illegal with something here, so it may be inferior option if it's illegal with something important.

While accuracy is in issue indeed, you will use this set as hit and run anyway, so I don't think it's that big of an issue.

 

[Aberforth]

If main reason of Earthquake is Rock Arceus, why not just run Hydro Pump here ? It should hit harder then Earthquake with pretty much zero investment. Also it hits Heatran (not common, but it still may show up once in a while) for SE damage hard enough. Although I have no idea if Hydro Pump isn't illegal with something here, so it may be inferior option if it's illegal with something important.

While accuracy is in issue indeed, you will use this set as hit and run anyway, so I don't think it's that big of an issue.

Primal groudon would wall that set completely if it wasn't running eq.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Primal groudon would wall that set completely if it wasn't running eq.

252 SpA Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 220-259 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 154-183 (38.1 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 178-211 (44 - 52.2%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

A combination of Hyper Voice and Draco Meteor has a high change to KO Primal Groudon after Stealth Rock, and two Hyper Voices can also KO after Stealth Rock (40% chance), so Primal Groudon does not take it on very well at all.

I don't really see the merit of using specially-orientated Mega Salamence, as the only benefits I can see are surprising opposing Giratina-Origin with an OHKO from Draco Meteor. I guess this would help if you were to use Stone Edge Extremekiller on the same team. Like Minority Suspect said, you can use Hydro Pump, although I would only do that in a situation where I knew that my opponent used Rhyperior or something similar as their Salamence check, and I would still use a physically orientated spread to be honest.

 

[Iridiscent97]

Ok guys, I never claimed MixMence to be even half as good as the DD sets, which everyone (myself included) uses themselves. But to progress the discussion, I will nominate this Darkrai:

Darkrai @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb / Thunder

Darkrai can be very hard to wall thanks to its Speed and power. In general, the most common ways to deal with Darkrai are specially defensive tanks and Choice Scarf users. Double status Darkrai is odd, but it works by first putting the opposing Pokemon to sleep using Dark Void, as is to be expected from Darkrai. At this point, your opponent should most likely switch out, because staying in would mean Darkrai can set up a Nasty Plot or a Substitute. By using Thunder Wave the following turn, Darkrai can cripple two Pokemon on your opponent's team, especially those Choice Scarf users mentioned earlier. In every other respect, it functions exactly as regular Nasty Plot or Substitute sets, minus the Nasty Plot or Substitute, of course. Dark Pulse is there as a main STAB, while Sludge bomb hits Fairies and Thunder hits things like Ho-oh for not-laughable damage. The main focus of using Dark Void here is not to sweep but to allow another member of the team to clean up later. Additionally, Darkrai's Life Orb-boosted coverage moves and STAB Dark Pulse can leave big dents for other Pokemon to make use of later. Focus Sash is also viable (read: extremely gimmicky and trollish) to ensure that Darkrai lives a hit from something faster, and then cripples it.

This does nothing to Sleep Talk users. Beware Ho-Oh and RestTalk Primal Kyogre.
(But then, no variant of Darkrai can hope to beat those two under normal circumstances)

Of course, I don't claim that this set is in any way better than its standard sets, but as it certainly does create more nuisances than those SD+Knock Off or TrickScarf sets, and I should think it can certainly be used, if not "the next best thing".

 

[Prinz]

didn't expect this thread would be that inactive.. guess if a mod wants to lock this would be fine, don't think this will show enough good discussions, so no point to keep open a thread like this imo.