Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

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So are we doing all of the discussion first now? Meaning, will we vote for a Mon to be put on the ladder and then move on to the next slate?

I would state my thoughts on these as usual, but they haven't changed from before. Snow Warning Kyurem doesn't have any useful niches (Rain teams are too rare to be worth it imo, and both MegaYard and TTar win against it), Water Shuriken Cloyster is OP and mindlessly offensive, Poison Heal Goodra is what you'd expect from a Poison Heal mon, and Refrigerate Avalugg doesn't solve the problems that keeps it from being OU.
 
Dry Paratroopa said:
So are we doing all of the discussion first now? Meaning, will we vote for a Mon to be put on the ladder and then move on to the next slate?

I would state my thoughts on these as usual, but they haven't changed from before. Snow Warning Kyurem doesn't have any useful niches (Rain teams are too rare to be worth it imo, and both MegaYard and TTar win against it), Water Shuriken Cloyster is OP and mindlessly offensive, Poison Heal Goodra is what you'd expect from a Poison Heal mon, and Refrigerate Avalugg doesn't solve the problems that keeps it from being OU.
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252 SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 160-189 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 60 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem in Sun: 343-405 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's why I'm thinking running 60 HP is beneficial so you can survive one Fire Blast without worry. Also:
252 SpA Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 189-223 (63.4 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Both OHKOes after Rocks and 2HKOes otherwise, so it can't switch in 100% safely.
And for Tyrantiar, that's why you run Focus Blast silly!
252 SpA Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 300-356 (74.2 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 348-412 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Kyurem cannot take hits from either, but to say that they win 100% of the time is just not true.
 
I'm slowly becoming more interested in Water Shuriken Cloyster - it's not going hugely change the meta, but I could see it being played similar to Talonflame with decent results:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mew: 235-277 (68.7 - 80.9%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Water Shuriken (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mew: 165-200 (48.2 - 58.4%)

It's not as powerful, but it's a different typing, giving it a unique niche, and stronger than almost all other priority. Cloyster also has other good offensive options for this kind of set - Icicle Spear would be scary, Ice Shard would give it additional revenge killing utility, and Rock Blast is a useful coverage move.

I still prefer Poison Heal Goodra, but I can see Cloyster being a lot of fun.
 
I'm glad alexwolf decided to move the discussion before we vote. It's looking pretty good right now. This looks like a very good slate of Theorymons (probably because most of them should have won already). It's also nice to see Ice-types getting some love.

I'll start with Avalugg because it seems to be getting the least love. Although Ice is a bad defensive typing, its bulk still allows it to counter Mega Pinsir, Landorus-T, and Dragonite and Garchomp without Fire Blast. What is interesting about Avalugg is that unblockable Rapid Spin. Many common hazard setters such as Deoxys-D, Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, and Skarmony cannot do anything to Avalugg, so Avalugg can switch in to any of these and is guaranteed to remove the hazards next turn without worrying about Defiant, so Avalugg can effectively force your opponent to play without hazards depending on their hazard setter. Avalugg also has a good chance of beating defensive Tyranitar and Air Balloon Excadrill without Swords Dance (barring flinch hax), so these are other hazard setters Avalugg can take on.

I'm not necessarily stating that Avalugg is my favorite choice, but this is something to think about before completely dismissing Avalugg.
 
Why do people keep talking about how Avalugg can't beat spinblockers? You are missing the entire point of Refrigerate Rapid Spin. Spinblockers won't be switching in on Avalugg's Rapid Spin because it accomplishes nothing, and he successfully spins anyway. Avalugg's matchup against spinblockers matters no more than his matchup against any other mon in the meta.

EDIT to add: Refrigerate Rapid Spin is the single best hazard removal in the game. Normal Rapid Spin is blocked by Ghosts. Defog can be taunted, is afraid of Defiant, removes both sides. Avalugg switches in at ANY point? If you can't kill him THAT TURN, HE IS GUARANTEED TO REMOVE YOUR HAZARDS.
 
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Adonzo said:
Why do people keep talking about how Avalugg can't beat spinblockers? You are missing the entire point of Refrigerate Rapid Spin. Spinblockers won't be switching in on Avalugg's Rapid Spin because it accomplishes nothing, and he successfully spins anyway. Avalugg's matchup against spinblockers matters no more than his matchup against any other mon in the meta.

EDIT to add: Refrigerate Rapid Spin is the single best hazard removal in the game. Normal Rapid Spin is blocked by Ghosts. Defog can be taunted, is afraid of Defiant, removes both sides. Avalugg switches in at ANY point? If you can't kill him THAT TURN, HE IS GUARANTEED TO REMOVE YOUR HAZARDS.
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WP multiscale dragonite laughs at your suggestion and hits you with Fire Blast
 
Blizzardhail said:
WP multiscale dragonite laughs at your suggestion and hits you with Fire Blast
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Dragonite is OHKO'd by Refrigerate return.

4 Atk Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 342-404 (105.5 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and Dragonite needs +Max to OHKO through stealth rock or at all on an invested Avalugg.

252 SpA Dragonite Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Avalugg: 248-292 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Dragonite Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Avalugg: 272-320 (69 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I suppose with a life orb, you could OHKO with Fire Blast but if you're using life orb on a Dragonite, you're doing something wrong.
 
Time to discuss then.

Avalugg is a pokemon ive likened to an Ice Aggron, so I am trying tonresist my bias for this one. Refrigerate is a great ability, and to see it used on a support pokemon and not an offensives one is quite nice. Unblockable RapidSpin is sadly not all its cracked up to be in a meta with Defog. To be able to truly take advantage of this, it would need to show that it could overcome its speed and specical defense, which, with an ability like this, it just might.

Kyurem + BlizzSpam = mass chaos. Truly this is chaotic in my mind, as just setting hail up can be a slight pain with the little ice we have, but a base 110 attack off of a 130 Stat is almost as scary as the dreaded Char Y Fire Blast. That is really all I know, but he seems to function as the ice Char Y in the weather is more for him rather than the team.

Cloyster seems a little less boring than it did as ive seen some suggest CB sets, but I still don't like the idea much. This priority filled.eta is tiring, and more is not something I'm keen on seeing.

Poison Heal Goodra looks a lot like the Snorlax one we did, just more resistances and a lot less power. Asimilsr discussion, but id like a different one while still wanting it.
 
Blizzardhail said:
WP multiscale dragonite laughs at your suggestion and hits you with Fire Blast
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That is a good suggestion, if not necessarily for Dragonite. Any mon with a less severe Ice weakness (ie. can tank a Return if mispredicted) can abuse Refrigerate Rapid Spin with Weakness Policy.
 
If any pokemon not called Dragonite decides to use WP in order to get a boost from avalugg's ice type rapid spin (probably one of the nichest exploits existing in the metagame) then it has made a huge impact on the metagame. Not to mention, I doubt there's a single poke weak to ice not ohkod by life orb adamant refridgerate return from Avalugg, so its a huge risk and hardly a counter at all. *prepares to be proven wrong*


mega venusaur doesnt count >_>
 
Pipotchi said:
If any pokemon not called Dragonite decides to use WP in order to get a boost from avalugg's ice type rapid spin (probably one of the nichest exploits existing in the metagame) then it has made a huge impact on the metagame. Not to mention, I doubt there's a single poke weak to ice not ohkod by life orb adamant refridgerate return from Avalugg, so its a huge risk and hardly a counter at all. *prepares to be proven wrong*


mega venusaur doesnt count >_>
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Hippowdon
Not sure if 2HKO though
 
Pipotchi said:
If any pokemon not called Dragonite decides to use WP in order to get a boost from avalugg's ice type rapid spin (probably one of the nichest exploits existing in the metagame) then it has made a huge impact on the metagame. Not to mention, I doubt there's a single poke weak to ice not ohkod by life orb adamant refridgerate return from Avalugg, so its a huge risk and hardly a counter at all. *prepares to be proven wrong*


mega venusaur doesnt count >_>
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252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 361-429 (96.5 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 361-429 (95 - 112.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 367-432 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 400-476 (94.3 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golem: 346-408 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 429-507 (94 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zekrom: 367-432 (90.8 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 374-439 (89 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 354-421 (87.6 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina-O: 416-491 (82.5 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 330-390 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 320-377 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 367-432 (72.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 173(346)-204(408) (41.5[83.1] - 49[98]%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Refrigerate Avalugg Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 259-306 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's a pretty short list full of ubers and stupid spreads
 
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I think that is blatantly obvious that Water Shuriken Cloyster would be near unstoppable. We have already seen what can do a bird with a strong priority, just imagine what could do Cloy with 2 stab priorities, one of wich laughs at Sturdy and Focus Sash. And remember that Shell Smash Cloy is already able to sweep entire unprepared teams on his own.

Cloyster @ Focus Sash / Life Orb / White Erb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def - OR, CONSIDERING THAT NOW HAS A MUCH BETTER PRIORITY - 252 Hp / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Water Shuriken
- Rock Blast
- Ice Shard / Icicle Spear

This I think would be pretty overpowered. Unless having Skarmory, Vaporeon, and Gastrodon, good luck trying to stomach those hits. Wather Shuriken, Rock Blast, and Icicle Spear (I don't think this set would need Ice Shard, Water Shuriken is so good to allow carrying the more powerful Spear) give almost perfect coverage.

Keep in mind that all these calculations don't take into account SS boost.

252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 145-175 (43.4 - 52.3%) -- approx. 32.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 325-390 (77.3 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 155-180 (34.9 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 155-190 (33.4 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 215-260 (50.4 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Water Shuriken (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 155-180 (43.2 - 50.2%) -- approx. 13.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(so, thanks to priority, he should be able to easily revenge kill a weakened Scarfchomp)
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Water Shuriken (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 105-135 (30.5 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(Rock Blast does more damages, but we're talking about fast revenge killing here)
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Water Shuriken (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 210-245 (51.9 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So, even if "one" hit shouldn't be enough to take the target down, the physical bulk of Cloy pretty much ensures that a second turn to clean is granted (especially with the second EV spread I suggested). Probably the best late game sweeper ever.
1- Just save him till the opposing team is weakened
2- Boost, attack, whatever, just throw nukes
3- ???
4- profit
 
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The Pizza Man said:
Where not voting yet, but when we do vote mine will probably go to Water Shuriken Cloyster

Also when is the ladder going to be updated with last month's theorymons,its been 17 days. If this months theorymons are uploaded at a time where we cant use them for atleast a week, if at all, then I request that we upload both last months theorymons and this months theorymons in May, allthough I hope it doesnt come to that
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It's going to be updated when the PS stuff finds time to do it. Also, i already stated that the theorymons for this month on the ladder will stay for May too, as due to the dealy they have lost most of their time from this month. So, on May, the ladder will have both the March and April theorymons.
Dry Paratroopa said:
So are we doing all of the discussion first now? Meaning, will we vote for a Mon to be put on the ladder and then move on to the next slate?

I would state my thoughts on these as usual, but they haven't changed from before. Snow Warning Kyurem doesn't have any useful niches (Rain teams are too rare to be worth it imo, and both MegaYard and TTar win against it), Water Shuriken Cloyster is OP and mindlessly offensive, Poison Heal Goodra is what you'd expect from a Poison Heal mon, and Refrigerate Avalugg doesn't solve the problems that keeps it from being OU.
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Yes, first we talk about the theorymons, and then we vote about which one we want to see on the ladder of the next month.

And come on guys, enough with the ''Cloyster will be OP'' talk. Here are some Pokemon that can check Water Shuriken Cloyster after as boost: Aegislash, Mega Scizor with Superpower, Keldeo, physically defensive Rotom-W, Slowbro, Suicune, Unaware Clefable, and Quagsire. Also, due to its pathetic special bulk and low Speed, setting up against offensive teams can be very damn hard to do. Add to that an SR weakness, and you can see how difficult it will be for Cloyster to set up sometimes. Let's focus on how Cloyster would affect the metagame instead of talking about how it would be broken, which we can't know anyway.
 
Snow Warning Kyurem
At first glance one might wonder why we should even bother with hail in Gen 6 now that weather abilities have been nerfed... until you realize that's why.
Let me explain: we have a very small number of hail abusers, Kyurem himself being probably the best one. Magic Guard users, Overcoat users and ice types that don't run Blizzard (like Mamoswine or Cloyster) aren't exactly "abusers", they just don't care.
Keeping this in mind, there are two important consequences about SW Kyurem:
1. we no longer have to worry about opposing weather setters disrupting hail roughly 50% of the time (that was roughly the combined usage of weather teams in BW). Tyranitar is still common, but it will think twice before switching on something that learns Earth Power and Focus Blast.
2. it acts as a weather setter and sweeper rolled into one, much like Kyogre and Mega Charizard Y. Except that now that hail doesn't last forever anymore, this is not a liability for the rest of the team.
This is my favorite suggestion out of the 4 and I see it having a lot of potential.

Refrigerate Avalugg
I'm of the opinion that Avalugg, as it is now, is a terrible spinner but a wonderful physical wall, provided something else provides spin/Defog support. Being able to wall top threats like Garchomp, Dragonite and Mega Pinsir is no small feat. I really hate when people dismiss it because it's an ice type. A pokemon isn't just "a defensive type", it's a combination of type, stats, movepool and ability. Avalugg's titanic physical bulk and access to Recover far outweight its shortcoming as a defensive ice type.
Been said that, Refrigerate would finaly enable it to be a good spinner, who would probably work best in offensive teams who appreciate an unblockable Rapid Spin and would want to keep their own hazards up. Ice is a powerful offensive type and Avalugg's attack is actually pretty good for a wall, so it wouldn't be set-up bait either.

Water Shuriken Cloyster
I don't find this especially helpful to be honest. Cloyster's main issue have always been bulky water types and WS does nothing to fix that. Most steel types in OU have a secondary type that makes them neutral against either Icicle Spear (Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Skarmory) or Rock Blast (Heatran, Scizor). The main steel type who resists both, Aegislash, is actually 2HKO'd by LO Icicle Spear even in its shield form so it's not a surefire counter. WS isn't scoring any notable OHKO against any of them, except for Heatran (who is still OHKO'd by Rock Blast with minimal hazards support anyways). It's probably the least interesting theorymon out of the 4 in my opinion.

Poison Heal Goodra
Goodra is one of those pokemon that have everything a good wall could ask for, except for at the very least a form of semi-reliable recovery. Imagine Gliscor without Poison Heal and Roost, Ferrothorn without Leech Seed or Conkeldurr without Drain Punch. None of them would be even close to their OU status without those tools.
The issue here is that PH on Goodra is just a bit too overpowered. Personally I think Regenerator would have been a better compromise, since it would still make Goodra very viable.
The status immunity is too much in my opinion.
 
Blizzardhail said:
Hippowdon
Not sure if 2HKO though
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Choice Band is a guaranteed 1HKO. I have some calculations against hazard setters in my last post illustrating how Avalugg generally has a better match up than Excadrill against most hazard setters. Hippowdon still can't do anything but Toxic back. Avalugg can tank non-STAB Rock-type attacks pretty damn well.
 
As i'm used to do with defensive theorymon, here a list of pokemons that Goodra can counter and check far better now :
  • n°1 Rotom-W is better checked (we can talk about counter i guess now ) than it was before thanks to poison heal ( no more burn, and few utility of a trick ), it's still able to run away thanks to volt switch, and taking anoying momentum.
  • n°2 named Charizard is half countered (LOL), actually Goodra is very good counter for the Y version, even if it's run Dragon Pulse. Its new abillity give it the possibility to come in many times without loosing momentum by using recover moves. That's great, nevertheless, the X version is not countered at all, then you need to scoot before.
  • n°3 is Aegislash, all standard set are countered bar the SD set with shadow claw/iron head which is only checked. Poison heal offers it the possibility to take some few more hits and to come in latter also. BTW it's also be usefull against some toxic+sub set.
  • n°5 Greninja is only checked, poison heal is not so much usefull here.
  • n°6 Heatran is Countered and can't toxic stall anymore.
  • n°16 Venusaur will have some trouble but is still able to stay in thanks to leech seed
  • n°18 Gengar is countered and can't even hope for a lucky poison.
  • Espeon is checked as it still can use calm mind + MorningSun set.
  • Togekiss is checked but will need its fairy stab.
  • Alakazam is countered.
  • Volcarona is countered if Goodra use rock slide or something able hit (toxic fo instance) even after a couple of dances.
  • Thundurus is countered if it has not a +2 Atk.
  • Tentacruel is countered and can't use toxic or knock off anymore.
  • Starmie is countered
  • Deoxys-S is countered
  • Keldeo is checked as secret sword hits very hard, it can be countered with max physical defensive spread.
  • Manectric is countered, but it still can get momentum thanks to volt switch.
  • Landorus-I is countered (a weird physical set can still surprise Goodra on the switch)
That is quite good to see it manages top threats very well, the added longevity ans status immunity are very usefull to stay longer and be able to check them for the begining to the end.
For the pokemon who can threaten Goodra, nothing changed, physically super effective (or neutral stabed) moves are very efficient.

Edit: added Landorus, thanks to Red Cat
 
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what i like about refrigerate avalugg over the other 3 is it creates a completely new niche that none of the other ideas on the slate do. unblockable rapid spin with 100+ bp physical ice moves are things that don't really exist (outside of power herb freeze shock + skill link/lucky icicle spear for the latter) in the metagame without it. i've never used avalugg so i don't know if it would be ou viable.

snow warning kyurem would finally give hail a weather starter that was also one of the premier abusers of said weather. all the other weathers have one: kyogre for rain in ubers, charizard y for sun in ou, tyranitar for sand in ou. mega-abomasnow is more powerful but it also has a worse defensive typing and is one of the slowest pokemon around. specs blizzard 2hkos mega scizor after stealth rock and has a chance to 2hko without rocks using earth power. blizzard also does ~70% to AV conkeldurr. mega tyranitar too is a guaranteed 2hko from earth power with rocks, and you can 2hko with blizzard too if you get lucky in the sand.

i like cloyster. it looks mean and for all of its power also has options to offer the team some utility. another thing about it is that it does great against baton pass leads. its powerful attacks break through sashes and subs and has boosting options to get greedy right alongside any scolipede. water shuriken would be great for cloyster to buff the power and usefulness of its priority move as well as encouraging people to use a great anti-bp sweeper.

poison heal goodra turns it into blissey the tank but as stated above the things that check it now would still check it. i'm not a fan of this one and this post is already so much longer than i'm used to.

as of right now i like refrigerate avalugg and water shuriken cloyster the best. i think refrigerate avalugg is the most interesting and water shuriken cloyster is the best for the meta.
 
I was going to talk about Poison Heal Goodra, but U-Ralph's post pretty much sums up what I wanted to say. Being able to counter 4 out of the 7 S-rank threats is awesome; I don't think any other Pokemon can do that. It also counters Landorus-I in addition to being a great status absorber. I don't have anything else to say about Poison Heal Goodra other than that it looks really good.
 
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