Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Lavos]

Ok my bad, I should have said "makes SubCM Jirachi a lot better". To be frank, SubCM Rachi outside of Rain is pretty bad, it loses its most appealing draw which is the 60% chance of paralysis on Thunder, and it also makes it hard to run Water Pulse because there's no x1.5 power boost either. Flash Cannon, Psychic, and Thunderbolt are all mediocre moves to be running, especially TBolt, as you're ditching 120 Base Power and 60% para for 95 Base Power and 20% para, a pitiful drop in usability.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Ok my bad, I should have said "makes SubCM Jirachi a lot better". To be frank, SubCM Rachi outside of Rain is pretty bad, it loses its most appealing draw which is the 60% chance of paralysis on Thunder, and it also makes it hard to run Water Pulse because there's no x1.5 power boost either. Flash Cannon, Psychic, and Thunderbolt are all mediocre moves to be running, especially TBolt, as you're ditching 120 Base Power and 60% para for 95 Base Power and 20% para, a pitiful drop in usability.

I don't think so. SubCM Jirachi is pretty good outside rain, it is just different. The rain takes the SubCM Jirachi to a different level by enabling it to use a more powerful Thunder instead of Thunderbolt, and enabling it to use an otherwise pitfully weak move Water Pulse, both with a good chance to hax your opponent. But neither of them are necessary to Jirachi's sucess. Thinking so is thinking small. Thunderbolt is not a mediocre move because it is better than Thunder when you aren't using Rain (the reverse is obviously true however). Try to have sucess with a move that is like a Focus Blast and has even worse accuracy on a non-Rain weather. And Psychic is actually bad as you say, as you should be running Psyshock; that allows you to bypass the pink blobs much more easily than if you were running Psychic, Thunder or Water Pulse. And Flash Cannon has its merits in letting Jirachi bypass physically defensive Ground-types, Lati@s, Celebi and Tyranitar if it hasn't gained too many boosts.

 

[Lavos]

I don't think so. SubCM Jirachi is pretty good outside rain, it is just different. The rain takes the SubCM Jirachi to a different level by enabling it to use a more powerful Thunder instead of Thunderbolt, and enabling it to use an otherwise pitfully weak move Water Pulse, both with a good chance to hax your opponent. But neither of them are necessary to Jirachi's sucess. Thinking so is thinking small. Thunderbolt is not a mediocre move because it is better than Thunder when you aren't using Rain (the reverse is obviously true however). Try to have sucess with a move that is like a Focus Blast and has even worse accuracy on a non-Rain weather. And Psychic is actually bad as you say, as you should be running Psyshock; that allows you to bypass the pink blobs much more easily than if you were running Psychic, Thunder or Water Pulse. And Flash Cannon has its merits in letting Jirachi bypass physically defensive Ground-types and Tyranitar if it hasn't gained too many boosts.

Yes, all of this is true, but you're missing the point. SubCM Jirachi with Thunder and Water Pulse allows you to hax your way through literally ANY Pokemon that could hope to oppose it, except for Gastrodon, who wins every time against any SubCM Rachi that doesn't have HP Grass, so that's irrelevant. All other moves for Jirachi are decent, such as Flash Cannon, Psyshock, Thunderbolt, but none of them together allow for the rage-inducing tandem that is Thunder and Water Pulse. You can't argue against that.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Yes, all of this is true, but you're missing the point. SubCM Jirachi with Thunder and Water Pulse allows you to hax your way through literally ANY Pokemon that could hope to oppose it, except for Gastrodon, who wins every time against any SubCM Rachi that doesn't have HP Grass, so that's irrelevant. All other moves for Jirachi are decent, such as Flash Cannon, Psyshock, Thunderbolt, but none of them together allow for the rage-inducing tandem that is Thunder and Water Pulse. You can't argue against that.

Yes, I can't argue against that because this is a fact. SubCM Jirachi is as viable outside rain as it is on rain, but if you want to rage your opponent, you should be using the Rain version, with Thunder/Water Pulse.

 

[Electrolyte]

SubCM Jirachi is beast by itself, but Rain makes it a whole lot scarier. The hax IS awesome as well- just as Lavos said. The ability to 'leave your mark' even after you get revenged is awesome- not to mention the fact that it is just so much harder to revenge once your revenge killer gets Paralyzed. Water Pulse is a pretty shitty move even in Rain, but the confusion helps somewhat, even if it IS only 40%. >.> In the Rain, the amount of pokemon that Jirachi can set up on doesn't rise too much, but the amount of pokemon that can revenge it decreases substantially. Fire type coverage doesn't work anymore. SpDef Heatran without Roar will find itself haxxed to death by Thunder and Water Pulse.


Outside of Rain, I would probably use Psyshock, because opposing CM'ers will be very annoying, especially Latias

 

[FaceFaceFace]

But anyways, S-Tier are Pokemon that can sweep or wall a majority of the tier. Along with that, they carry the element of surprise, as they are very versatile, so their exact set is never known. Terrakion, I will understand. It has brute strength to just f*ckin muscle through the entire OU Tier.

Genesect is S-Tier in performance, but not by definition. It isn't all too versatile as it really can only run Choice Scarf or an offensive pivot set with EB/LO. However, it shines in terms of coverage and usage (although it isn't a sweeper, so it can't really sweep/wall a majority of the OU Tier....). TBH, Choice Scarf is Genesect's only friend and it's the onyl friend it'll need for a lonnnnnggg time

I feel some Pokemon that could've been S-Tier are Pokemon like Dragonite.

Chomp and Dragonite may be versatile, but the outcome is always the same. EQ or Outrage things to death. And they are rather conveniently stoppable, considering Dragon type does not hit many things for SE damage. Outrage also has the locked-in and confusion factor. Not to mention Nite's pretty slow, and SR> MS.
The meta has evolved with dragons around it for so long that they are no longer 'unstoppable'.

Genesect is very different. You know it's carrying moves that hits more than half of your team for SE damage. Now you have to guess if it's Rock Polish/Ebelt, Scarfed, or even Banded(yes banded!). Guess wrong? Something goes down or it's GG. Guess right and you may still eat a STABed U-turn. Bye bye momentum. And..
1. You can't revenge kill it easily, since it resists Pursuit.
2. It can switch in and out often because of SR resistance.
3. It is also not priority weak.
4. The blobs are C-Tier.
5. Rain means fire attacks (usually HP Fire) aren't a surefire OHKO.
...and the list goes on.
Bottom line: whatever you do when Genesect is around is always a lose/lose for you. That's beyond S-Tier stuff if you ask me.

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns").
I'm still adamant that Rotom-W may be S-Tier. It's just so good at preserving momentum and kicks ass in rain.

 

[elodin]

This seems a bit gimmicky, but Jirachi gets Energy Ball and it has a coverage almost as good as Water Pulse's. I've already lost to it outside Rain because it took out my Gastrodon with Energy Ball. I'm just pointing this out because Lavos mentioned HP Grass, when in fact, Energy Ball is just a way better option to run in it (i know it's still worse than Flash Cannon, Water Pulse and Psyshock).

 

[evillocke]

This seems a bit gimmicky, but Jirachi gets Energy Ball and it has a coverage almost as good as Water Pulse's. I've already lost to it outside Rain because it took out my Gastrodon with Energy Ball. I'm just pointing this out because Lavos mentioned HP Grass, when in fact, Energy Ball is just a way better option to run in it (i know it's still worse than Flash Cannon, Water Pulse and Psyshock).

Jirachi gets energy ball? That's interesting. I think Chansey should be D-tier. It is outcalssed by the fatter blob in so many ways. Screw eviolite, I'd much rather have leftovers+decent special sttack. I often run Ice beam on my bliss to suprise gliscor. Though I might change that to flamethrower.

 

[ginganinja]

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

You should prolly consider Tornadus-T as S tier then imo. I am not saying its broken, or a suspect, but there has been a fair amount of discussion with a few people convinced its broken or deserving of suspect status so it deserves consideration IMO

 

[SJCrew]

Rotom-W provides A-tier support for its team. It definitely has counters, and is often 2HKOed by the Pokemon it is attempting to switch into (trying to switch in on Landorus-T EQ but getting 2HKOed by Stone Edge instead, taking retarded damage from Specs Hydro Pump). It's pretty slow and not even that bulky, as most powerful STABs it does not resist will simply KO after rocks. It used to have a pretty good tank set at the beginning of OU, but even that changed. Many of the Pokemon it needs to check are faster and get around it easily, so it's usually Scarf or die.

Causing trouble for Drizzle teams is a pretty big niche though. It's B-tier in my eyes, but A is fine too. It needs to do something besides Volt Switch to be an S-tier Pokemon, though, since it's getting to the point where I always know what it wants to do and Volt Switch is too weak to sufficiently threaten its targets.

For the record, having several niche sets doesn't make you versatile. Two really good sets that kill a wide range of Pokemon is versatile enough for me.

 

[bubbly]

Yeah, I haven't actually seen a single convincing argument that Torn shouldn't be in S. It prefers Rain support, but it doesn't need it up to be effective. Simply put, the metagame can't deal with it at all. If the metagame becomes more balanced it will become even more of a beast because it absolutely ruins any kind of stall, regardless of whether they have a SpDef Zapdos or something.

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah Torn-T for S Rank. I have said it again. Sure it is rain dependent, BUT it can hold its own outside rain, and set up Rain Dance by its own, not to mention that Rain is the best weather right now.

I would also like to see what people think about Keldeo. Its Scarf set destroys offensive teams, and its Specs set destroys balanced teams. And CM destroys teams altogether, but needs more support to do so. I could see him being in S rank, but i am not sure...

 

[FaceFaceFace]

Keldeo is awesome, and Hydro Miss in rain is ridiculous, but it gets walled cold by Jellicent unless you're running HP Ghost, which means Icy Wind for dragons if Scarfed/Specs or nothing for Dragons if CM; Unlike Terrakion who only needs 2 moves. If Keldeo runs Scarf/Specs coverage is somewhat redundant, and if running CM it cannot sweep if Jellicent/faster dragons are around. Maybe that's the reason that is preventing it from being S?

 

[Bl1tzkri3g]

About Torn-T, he is totally viable in weatherless. Although it may not be 100%, defensive pokes still have to fear Hurricane, and steels now have to account for Heat Wave as well. He then caps off the set with probably Focus Blast and U-Turn, though you could probably run Grass Knot somewhere in there to hit Rotom-W. This makes it S, to me, as it not only is a huge threat on Rain, it can be used as an anti-rain check on weatherless offense teams as well.

 

[Bent1ey]

Yes, but outside Drizzle Politoed is actually a decent Pokémon, it is just outclassed by many Bulky Water-types. Ninetales is A instead of S because even with Drought it is a mediocre Pokémon and is only there to support the team with eternal sun. <--- this was a response to Lord of Bays

I'm not sure if you can actually say Politoed is that much of a better pokemon than Ninetales, but he's certainly more easy to switch in, considering it carries no Stealth Rock weakness and is more bulky. Weather inducers are going to be switching in often to counter other weathers, and among every permanent weather inducer, Ninetales is arguably the worst at switching into an opponent because of it's typing, bulk and vulnerability to hazards.

Thanks to its average speed and offenses Ninetales is good at scaring enemies off without depending in burn hax.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

2. It can switch in and out often because of SR resistance.

Actually Genesect is neutral to SR, and in fact, hates having to switch-in often with SR on its side.

This seems a bit gimmicky, but Jirachi gets Energy Ball and it has a coverage almost as good as Water Pulse's. I've already lost to it outside Rain because it took out my Gastrodon with Energy Ball. I'm just pointing this out because Lavos mentioned HP Grass, when in fact, Energy Ball is just a way better option to run in it (i know it's still worse than Flash Cannon, Water Pulse and Psyshock).

Energy Ball has only 2 benefits. First, it lets Jirachi beat Quagsire, wich would otherwise wall him. Second, Gastrodon is now not that hard to beat. But outside this, it is outclassed by other options that Jirachi may carry, as Energy Ball alongside other options lack the same neutral coverage that Thunder(bolt) + Psyshock/Flash Cannon/Water Pulse has.

Jirachi gets energy ball? That's interesting. I think Chansey should be D-tier. It is outcalssed by the fatter blob in so many ways. Screw eviolite, I'd much rather have leftovers+decent special sttack. I often run Ice beam on my bliss to suprise gliscor. Though I might change that to flamethrower.

Chansey actually has a better special bulk than Blissey even when the former has minimal investiment on SpD and the latter has max, because of Eviotile. Also, Chansey has a good physical bulk, almost equivalent to that of Swampert, despite Chansey's oh-god-forgive-me base 5 defense. Chansey survive many attacks that Blissey may fall to, such as most un-STABed physical attacks, even Fighting-type ones. I remember past week when my Chansey survived a +4 rain-boosted Waterfall from a Gyarados!

Keldeo is awesome, and Hydro Miss in rain is ridiculous, but it gets walled cold by Jellicent unless you're running HP Ghost, which means Icy Wind for dragons if Scarfed/Specs or nothing for Dragons if CM; Unlike Terrakion who only needs 2 moves. If Keldeo runs Scarf/Specs coverage is somewhat redundant, and if running CM it cannot sweep if Jellicent/faster dragons are around. Maybe that's the reason that is preventing it from being S?

Unless it is running HP Ghost or Electric. The latter has the advantage of defeating Gyarados and Tentacruel. However, it is better used on a Specs set, where you can use Icy Wind to compensate that now Lati@s wall your HP and your STABs.

 

[Bl1tzkri3g]

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Based on this, I'm going to say Landorus deserves to be S-Rank. He has four effective and unique sets, all designed for different purposes. They are: Scarf, Swords Dance, Special Rock Polish, and Calm Mind. Scarf is made to weakened teams late game, usually in sand, and was probably it's best set of BW1. Swords Dance is really really powerful and breaks bulky teams. Rock Polish, probably his best set, uses his Sheer-Force boosted special attacks to run through offensive teams. Calm mind nukes stall, using the same moves as Rock Polish to beat down bulkier foes instead of faster ones. Although these sets all have checks and counters, there is little overlap between them. Zapdos, one of my favorite answers to the Rock Polish set, can't take a +2 Stone Edge, and likewise, Gliscor, who can stand up to SD, hates HP Ice from a special set. The thing is, there's no way to tell what set Lando is running until it attacks, and by then it could be too late if you sent out the wrong check. This unpredictability, combined with just how good his sets are, makes Lando S-Tier.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Based on this, I'm going to say Landorus deserves to be S-Rank. He has four effective and unique sets, all designed for different purposes. They are: Scarf, Swords Dance, Special Rock Polish, and Calm Mind. Scarf is made to weakened teams late game, usually in sand, and was probably it's best set of BW1. Swords Dance is really really powerful and breaks bulky teams. Rock Polish, probably his best set, uses his Sheer-Force boosted special attacks to run through offensive teams. Calm mind nukes stall, using the same moves as Rock Polish to beat down bulkier foes instead of faster ones. Although these sets all have checks and counters, there is little overlap between them. Zapdos, one of my favorite answers to the Rock Polish set, can't take a +2 Stone Edge, and likewise, Gliscor, who can stand up to SD, hates HP Ice from a special set. The thing is, there's no way to tell what set Lando is running until it attacks, and by then it could be too late if you sent out the wrong check. This unpredictability, combined with just how good his sets are, makes Lando S-Tier.

I also agree. Don't forget that a Swords Dance set with can use Gravity, Explosion or Rock Polish; the former transforms Landorus on one of the best stallbreakers on the game, and the latter lets Landorus do somewhat of a Double Dancer set, but I think that Terrakion is better for this regard, while Explosion transforms Landorus on an atomic bomb capable of almost always getting at least one kill, despite the nerf to Explosion, although I thing that using Explosion on a boosting set is somewhat a waste. The Calm Mind set is also another good stallbreaker, but unfortunately it relies on strange, overlapping and unreliable coverage moves, but this is not even a problem when you consider the amount of power and destruction that it brings to the table. The same applies to Rock Polish. Scarf Landorus is probably the best revenge killer that sand teams have. Stoutland is dependant of sand and its coverage options to revenge kill, and is worthless if your opponent manages to win the weather war, and Terrakion and Garchomp lack U-Turn. There is Genesect, but in my opinion Scarf Landorus is even better than Genesect as a revenge killer on sandstorm teams, due to being able to revenge kill more things due to its 101 base speed and acess to Stone Edge, and not really needing much coverage aside from Stone Edge, Earthquake, U-Turn and HP Ice. Scarf Landorus let you use another, better Genesect set rather than waste it on Scarf, such as an Expert Belt or Rock Polish set.

Landorus is unpredictable and powerful. Its only real flaw is 4x weakness to Ice, wich make him very vulnerable to Ice Shard. However, with the right support, you can easily work around this.

Also, I somewhat agree that the Special Rock Polish set is its best set. This is only true because Special sets can be run on any team, but Physical ones require Sandstorm support, but on my opinion on sand teams, physical sets tend to be better than special sets, but special sets still make better use of Rock Polish than physical ones.

 

[alkinesthetase]

I think Chansey should be D-tier. It is outcalssed by the fatter blob in so many ways. Screw eviolite, I'd much rather have leftovers+decent special sttack. I often run Ice beam on my bliss to suprise gliscor. Though I might change that to flamethrower.

note: these calcs will be with a 252 def / 252 sdef calm blissey, and a 252 def / 252 sdef bold chansey. i frankly find the hp investment to be a waste on chansey when you could put those points in eviolite instead and get a boost; you need the extra special defense to take all the retarded hits in this game

you're pretty quick to underestimate chansey's bulk. it's true that blissey has leftovers and special attack with which it can run surprise elemental attacks instead of seismic toss. however chansey's bulk advantage is ridiculous. in terms of taking hits, leftovers only starts giving you a serious advantage when the damage is relatively small. let's take a look at specs politoed hydro pump in rain, which is basically the benchmark for special walls that do not resist water:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in rain: 220-261 (33.74 - 40.03%) -- 34.08% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in rain: 192-226 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 20.29% chance to 3HKO

pretty close between them. here, the leftovers that blissey is carrying largely make up for any unlucky high rolls.

but now let's look at some more interesting calculations for things that supposedly break pink blobs:

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 388-457 (59.5 - 70.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 261-307 (40.65 - 47.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 445-525 (68.25 - 80.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 296-351 (46.17 - 54.75%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO

4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 465-549 (71.31 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (48.2 - 57.25%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 548-648 (84.04 - 99.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 368-434 (57.41 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

well now that's a bit more telling. most of the things that are run to get through pink blobs do not actually get through chansey - they only beat blissey. because of chansey's superior physical bulk, none of these attacks do enough damage to permanently cripple it or score a reliable 2hko. secret sword comes close because of stab though, but random tutored superpowers and psyshocks are not enough to beat chansey. they'll flatten blissey though.

now we'll take some veritably polarizing examples of things blobs should never be staying in on

252+ Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 700-825 (107.36 - 126.53%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 468-552 (73.01 - 86.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

all these calcs should be an exceptionally clear demonstration of chansey's massive bulk advantage over blissey. there is a reason why chansey, not blissey, is a fixture of rain stall. chansey and blissey are both a solid C rank.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I personally still run 252 HP / 252 Def Chansey because putting these EVs on Special Defense instead of HP maximize Chansey's physical bulk better than if I put them on Special Defense, and because it's not necessary to invest on Special Defense; almost no Special Attack is going to break through Chansey anyway.

The only benefit that I can see from running max SpD instead of max HP is to never be 2HKOed by a +1 Calm Mind special Landorus Focus Blast without Stealth Rock on field:

252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Landorus Focus Blast vs 252 HP/4 SpDef Eviolite Chansey: 42,61% - 50%
Entry hazards damage: 88
After entry hazards: 388 - 440 (55,11% - 62,5%)
2-3 hits to KO

252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Landorus Focus Blast vs 4 HP/252 SpDef Eviolite Chansey: 37,38% - 43,93%
Entry hazards damage: 80
After entry hazards: 320 - 362 (49,84% - 56,39%)
2-3 hits to KO

With that in mind, you can survive, take one Focus Blast, then either Recover, or use a combination of Wish + Protect to attempt to stall out Focus Blast until it runs out of PP, assuming that all Focus Blast hits the day that it happens I am going to gain R$ 1 million on Mega-Sena. Then, you can safely take out Landorus with Toxic and Seismic Toss because no other options that it have are going to 2HKO Chansey.

 

[alkinesthetase]

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey in rain: 241-285 (34.23 - 40.48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

you take as much as blissey from the hydro pump if you run HP/def instead of def/sdef, except without leftovers you don't have a way to recover from high rolls. switch in through SR a few times and this will not exactly be a small problem. the extra physical bulk is of comparatively little significance since you shouldn't exactly be switching chansey into those hits to begin with. the only thing you should expect to be taking with chansey is psyshock/superpower, and you don't need the extra HP investment to take those hits (as illustrated by calcs above).

also

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 471-556 (66.9 - 78.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 377-445 (58.81 - 69.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

unlike random close combats and outrages, this is actually a hit i would expect to be taking with chansey, and the less damage i take from it the better. i could be running hp/sdef but then i'm compromising too much on physical bulk.

ultimately, because eviolite boosts defenses and not hp, i am much more willing to invest in defenses than in hp, seeing as chansey's HP is already so high that investing there gives trivial gains in bulk (good points raised by ganj4lf)

 

[tehy]

The blissey/chansey argument can be resolved quite easily.

Blissey is better against stall;chansey is better against offense. That's mainly it. Chansey's greater bulk, especially on the physical end, lets it beat offensive teams much more reliably;blissey's 6% lefties makes it much harder to wear down, letting it be better against stall teams.

 

[ganj4lF]

ultimately, because eviolite boosts defenses and not hp, i am much more willing to invest in defenses than in hp

While I completely agree with you on the Chansey vs Blissey argument, this phrase is highly misleading and is worth a little precisation; however, since said precisation is pointless and irrelevant to the purpose of this thread, it will be hidden into hide tags, to be read only by interested users.

Hide

Saying that it's better to invest in defenses instead of HP because Eviolite boosts defenses and not HP is not really a good argument. You want to maximize overall bulk (physical, in this case), and you care relatively little about how much HP or defense the pokemon actually has. You want to invest in Defense because Chansey has a ridiculously high HP stat anyway, and thus it gives better physical bulk to boost Def, NOT because HP is not boosted by Eviolite. For example, take Dusclops, an Eviolite user that doesn't have insane HP but has very good physical defense, and imagine you already spent 252 EVs into SpD and gave it a Calm for some reason. Your argument would imply that the best way to invest the remaining 256 EVs is to pump them into Def, since Def is boosted by Eviolite. However, as proved by the following calculations, this is untrue:

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 129-153 (45.42 - 53.87%) -- 36.33% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 108-127 (48.64 - 57.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

Since Dusclops has already very good defenses, it's better to invest into HP. Eviolite still boosts its overall physical bulk anyway even if HP EVs aren't boosted at all. It's just a matter to see what contributes more to the poke's bulkiness, and it's usually the lower stat; while Eviolite unbalances this slightly towards defenses compared to HP, it's still wrong to say that we should invest into defenses anyway since HP is not boosted (you actually didn't say exactly this, but your sentence is kinda close, and could be easily interpreted in this way).

 

[Parappa Da Sneak]

While I completely agree with you on the Chansey vs Blissey argument, this phrase is highly misleading and is worth a little precisation; however, since said precisation is pointless and irrelevant to the purpose of this thread, it will be hidden into hide tags, to be read only by interested users.

Hide

Saying that it's better to invest in defenses instead of HP because Eviolite boosts defenses and not HP is not really a good argument. You want to maximize overall bulk (physical, in this case), and you care relatively little about how much HP or defense the pokemon actually has. You want to invest in Defense because Chansey has a ridiculously high HP stat anyway, and thus it gives better physical bulk to boost Def, NOT because HP is not boosted by Eviolite. For example, take Dusclops, an Eviolite user that doesn't have insane HP but has very good physical defense, and imagine you already spent 252 EVs into SpD and gave it a Calm for some reason. Your argument would imply that the best way to invest the remaining 256 EVs is to pump them into Def, since Def is boosted by Eviolite. However, as proved by the following calculations, this is untrue:

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 129-153 (45.42 - 53.87%) -- 36.33% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 108-127 (48.64 - 57.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

Since Dusclops has already very good defenses, it's better to invest into HP. Eviolite still boosts its overall physical bulk anyway even if HP EVs aren't boosted at all. It's just a matter to see what contributes more to the poke's bulkiness, and it's usually the lower stat; while Eviolite unbalances this slightly towards defenses compared to HP, it's still wrong to say that we should invest into defenses anyway since HP is not boosted (you actually didn't say exactly this, but your sentence is kinda close, and could be easily interpreted in this way).

Don't hide it, it's quite important. Almost no one can distribute defensive EVs optimally just off the top of their head, so a lot of people get it plain wrong. Many set analyses on the site that EV defenses generally (not for any particular pokemen) are terribly inefficient. Overall bulk or as I just call it effective hp can be optimised using x-act's defense calculator

 

[PK Gaming]

oh god i completely forgot about mamoswine

=====
update
=====

Mamoswine added to B-tier
Tyranitar up from B-tier to A-tier

Keeping tyranitar from a-tier was downright criminally. it's not as hot as it used to be, but it's still capable of summoning weather and is the best Lati@s counter in the game (2 really difficult to check Pokemon as is)

Discussion of the day:
Is Tornadus-T S-tier material?