Icicle Spear.
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OU The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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Icicle Spear.
He never once mentioned Mamoswine, so I don't know why you're bringing it into the conversation. I said none of those Pokémon can OHKO...and they can't. But since you have brought up Mamoswine, I will rebut. Mamoswine is OHKOed by Earthquake at +2. Assuming you come in on Garchomp as it Swords Dances, or after it has gotten a kill at +2, you have to Ice Shard. If you don't, you get KOed. the only situation where Mamo would be able to get off an Icicle Spear is if it still has its Focus Sash intact. But if there's a Mamoswine at full health on your opponent's team and you don't know its item, I don't know why you would set up Garchomp anyway. Point is that Yache Berry beats all of the Pokémon that he mentioned, and even beats most Mamoswine that rely on Ice Shard to revenge kill Garchomp.
Some calcs for emphasis:
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 179-213 (50 - 59.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 257-304 (71.78 - 84.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 204-242 (56.98 - 67.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 229-270 (63.96 - 75.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 234-276 (65.36 - 77.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So please, anyone saying that Garchomp is beaten by any team that has one of these Pokémon is sorely mistaken. This isn't even considering Sub Salac Garchomp, which is incredibly deadly when used alongside something like Magnezone. How can anyone seriously say that Garchomp can't sweep. That is simply absurd.
I don't think anyone is saying Garchomp can't sweep and of course it can boost, but it's problem is it's speed. 102 is great, but when you remember the Starmies, Keldeo, Latis, Zam, etc. I think it's best sets are the Scarfed ones, since it has great bulk even if it faces another Scarfer, and the SR lead set since it can even outspeed Jolly Mamo with an Adamant nature and lay down the rocks as well as putting immediate offensive pressure on the opponent from the go.
Edit: After reading the past 2 pages apparently people are saying that it can't sweep or boost, welp. In my humble opinion a pokemon doesn't need to have a bazallion sets are to be unpredictable (not saying Chomp isn't) to be S or A+ tier.
Edit: After reading the past 2 pages apparently people are saying that it can't sweep or boost, welp. In my humble opinion a pokemon doesn't need to have a bazallion sets are to be unpredictable (not saying Chomp isn't) to be S or A+ tier.
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Actually, that's exactly what he said. I agree that its Scarf set is amazing, as is the SR set (which is the first set in the new analysis update that's being worked on right now), but its sweeping potential should not be underestimated, especially when it can lure and KO big threats like Starmie, Keldeo, and other Ice-type-coverage Pokémon. All I'm saying is that Garchomp's Speed is not bad, and with a Yache Berry, it doesn't care about most of those Pokémon. Obviously if a team has Keldeo and Starmie on it, for example, then Garchomp won't sweep. But that could be said of a team with Scarf Keldeo and Mamoswine for Dragonite or Jolteon and Scarf Keldeo; it doesn't make it any less potent of a sweeper.
Garchomp is a good A+ mon, but I just don't see it hanging with Politoed and Tyranitar(which entire playstyles revolve around), Jirachi(Which is so versatile, nearly every team can benefit from it), or Keldeo(which has almost no counters, no priority weakness, amazing speed tier, and can sweep rather easily when paired with Politoed or Tyranitar, who are S-Tier pokemon).
Eh I don't agree with Jirach in S-rank I personally find it easy to force it out. Maybe it's because I almost always use defensive Rotom-W on all my teams but yeah I just don't think it's that good the Scarf set gets outsped by the extremely common Scarf Keldeo and Scarf Terrakion, also Scarfchomp. The Calm Mind set in the rain usually loses to Band Ttar or perish song Celebi. Paralflinch loses to Gliscor or Landorus-T or Heatran or Rotom-W. SpD sets are beaten by the same Pokemon I listed. Don't get me wrong it's a great Pokemon in it's own right but I just don't think it fits up there with Tyranitar, Politoed and Keldeo. I honestly think Kyurem-B is a better candidate for S-rank, I think anyone who has used it right would agree with me.
Don't forget about the mix set, which is very popular lately and can run Energy Ball to beat Rotom-W / Gastrodon / etc.
Considering that you named different counters to each set, Jirachi clearly is one of the most versatile Pokemon in the tier. At team preview, you don't know what set it has, which makes it so amazing. Is your Scarfchomp going to kill that Jirachi with EQ, or will a Shuca Berry activate, and ice punch leaving you down a revenge killer? Will Celebi wall the SubCM set, or is a scarf U-turn destroy it? Can Jellicent predict a Body Slam, or will it let SubCM set up all over it, before getting hit up with a T-bolt? Can your Rotom-W safely come in, or is it 2HKOed by Energy Ball after rocks?
The mere presence of Jirachi forces its opponents to make a judgement of what set it might be, and mispredicting could be fatal. Yes Jirachi has its checks, but so does every other Pokemon, including the other S-ranks.
I've used Kyurem-Black pretty extensively actually, and I think A-Rank is just fine for it. S-Rank is home to metagame titans that need no support. Take Keldeo for example; sure there are pokemon that have good synergy with it, Politoed can power up it's Hydro Pump and Tyranitar can pursuit trap it's checks, but Keldeo can function just fine without either of those things. Then, look at the description for A-Rank:
Does this not fit Kyurem-Black perfectly? Kyurem-Black is capable of 2HKOing anything in the tier, yeah but it requires support if you want it to work well. A spinner is wise to have, as well as answers to top threats that force Kyurem-B out when it's not behind a sub like faster dragons, Breloom, Keldeo, etc. Not only that, but it has flaws that make it sort of inconsistent. It's bad defensive typing comes to bite it in the ass, it's weak to most priorities, all Hazards, it's not fast, and it has an awkward movepool that doesn't work well with it's stat spread. So no, I think Kyurem-Black is a solid A-Rank.
Only Water Pulse CM Jirachi can parafuse, and this set is admittedly problematic for SpD Scizor, but fortunately it is not even used enough to show up in the usage stats.
First of all, I never said that chomp is bad. I love the sr set and it is a solid scarfer. And I guess the right chomp cAn sweep the right team, but it isn't a reliable sweeper at all. And yache, for the most part, doesn't cause a sweep, it causes and extra kill, which is great, but unlike Pashto volc beating scarf Keldeo or u turn landorus beating celebi, it ( usually) won't amount to a sweep. And I know, there are scenarios where yache could let it sweep like if starmie is the only thing left that outspeeds it or something, but for the most part it is good for a surprise kill. I am fine to end this argument as we both think gar chomp is a good mon, you just think it is a bit better. Sorry bout the typing, autocorrect sux.
Speaking of wall breakers, specially based sub cube is disgustingly good, wrecks stall, and is not useless vs offense as has been advertised. It also made me stop using my sand semi stall team, as once I got high on the ladder where people use it, it just wrecked me, despite scarf rachi and a ferro, two"checks" to cube. The choice sets are solid as we'll , but it is really that set that makes it s IMO. Simply put, it has no counters
Speaking of wall breakers, specially based sub cube is disgustingly good, wrecks stall, and is not useless vs offense as has been advertised. It also made me stop using my sand semi stall team, as once I got high on the ladder where people use it, it just wrecked me, despite scarf rachi and a ferro, two"checks" to cube. The choice sets are solid as we'll , but it is really that set that makes it s IMO. Simply put, it has no counters
Chomp could very well be S-rank in due time. As he proves himself in tournament settings, the competitive consensus of him will get better and better until enough established players are vouching for him to rank among the best of the best. If Jirachi is now considered S-rank, there's definitely room for Chomp.
I finally had some time to read the rest of this thread, and after reading everyone's for-the-most-part great posts, I realized I didn't know as much as I thought I did (I already knew Jirachi wasn't banned for paraflinch, but there's no doubt that boosted its versatility; most of your other points I concede) about OU battling. I haven't joined any tournaments for a while, so I will sure try to make time for those because they are much better to learn about playing at higher levels than just ladder battling. I still don't think Garchomp is really S-rank, but I'm fine however it goes and I will not post here again until I think I'm qualified. Thanks to you all for helping me realize this! :-D
Guess what: Specially Defensive Scizor is not used at all.
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| Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 21.940% |
| Adamant:248/252/0/0/8/0 8.152% |
| Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 6.670% |
| Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 6.520% |
| Adamant:248/252/0/0/0/8 4.781% |
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 4.137% |
| Other 47.800% |It may be somewhere in that 47.8%... But I doubt it's much. Since Roost is used on most Specially Defensive Scizor, I'll derive from that.
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| Roost 14.696% |So you're just making your own arguement invalid because specially defensive scizor isn't common at all, at 15% (and mind, some of them aren't even specially defensive).
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It doesn't matter if it used or not, it matters that you have the option to use it to deal with most common Jirachi sets. SpD Scizor is a viable and solid set in OU, regardless of how much it is used (usage does not equal to viability), so if you want a solid all-around Jirachi check you can use it.
I might as well do a complete write up to compliment my nomination for "S Chomp", but let me just state, that garchomp is one of the only pokemon in history to warrant more than ONE suspect test in OU, it is literally up there with DPPt latias (which was a subject of like 6 suspect rounds, holy shit) that may not mean much to the average reader, but just think about it, and we all know sand veil had nothing to do with cacturne and that silly ass shit (subSD veil gliscor was a legitimate threat in tour. play *WORLD TOUR PLAYERS YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, THAT SHIT WAS REDICULOUS* though, but not BAN worthy)
edit, here's some really long shit for you to think about C:
Garchomp is way too solid to not be S imo. Even when it's sand veil got banned for the sake of the evasion clause abilities, it is still so damn amazing and a true terror to face in the current meta, chomp literally saw the puddle that POU had become, then nuked that puddle with it's 102 speed tier, 130 base attack, SD, great amount of viabillity, pure threatening ness and amazing STAB and near 0 counters (bronzong and skarm endlist, amazing Imma have to tl;dr that list cause it was so long) overall it was a force to face in OU, when they say "102 isn't the speed tier it used to be" garchomp literally did not give a shit, c'mon guys 102 is not slow in any way shape or form seriously, 102 is one of the most solid speed tiers in this meta, you outspeed base 100s, thundy-t and any other 101s, at the same time, chomp has the BEST overall PURE bulk (no multiscale, fuk dnite lel) of any ground type and any dragon type in OU (hippowdon has less spec bulk, etc.) which means, most of the shit that's faster than chomp is not OHKOing it when you put into the equation that you have to put both a strong ass fast ice move on your team AND a strong ass fast dragon move on your team just to play around haban and yache chomp, if not your losing to one of those variants (icicle spear isn't as effective to beat down yache chomp because your going slower than Garchomp, which means that your dieng before you can hit it, here are some calcs n' stuff:
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 469-553 (110.61 - 130.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 138-164 (38.54 - 45.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
)
oh by the way guys, focus sash mamo loses to +2 chomp if mamo is at 99% or lower even without yache on chomp, wanna know why?
252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 276-328 (77.09 - 91.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 469-553 (110.61 - 130.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO
yep, you guessed it, ice shard without LO or CB fails to kill, this isn't trying to be a legitimate argument as much as it is a testament to chomps pure bulk.
guys, aqua tail on chomp is really the best last slot on chomp to use,
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in rain: 168-198 (51.37 - 60.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 252-298 (60 - 70.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in rain: 192-226 (56.8 - 66.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T in rain: 340-402 (89.23 - 105.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
it really loses all of it's switch ins
(fyi
+1 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 228-268 (59.84 - 70.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 252-297 (60 - 70.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
I have more but in the edit section this seems to be a bit of a long post, so I'll just leave it here. If I sound aggressive, sorry, I get that a lot for my posts but I'm not trying to be, this is all for fun and for the sake of competitive pokemon :p
edit, here's some really long shit for you to think about C:
Garchomp is way too solid to not be S imo. Even when it's sand veil got banned for the sake of the evasion clause abilities, it is still so damn amazing and a true terror to face in the current meta, chomp literally saw the puddle that POU had become, then nuked that puddle with it's 102 speed tier, 130 base attack, SD, great amount of viabillity, pure threatening ness and amazing STAB and near 0 counters (bronzong and skarm endlist, amazing Imma have to tl;dr that list cause it was so long) overall it was a force to face in OU, when they say "102 isn't the speed tier it used to be" garchomp literally did not give a shit, c'mon guys 102 is not slow in any way shape or form seriously, 102 is one of the most solid speed tiers in this meta, you outspeed base 100s, thundy-t and any other 101s, at the same time, chomp has the BEST overall PURE bulk (no multiscale, fuk dnite lel) of any ground type and any dragon type in OU (hippowdon has less spec bulk, etc.) which means, most of the shit that's faster than chomp is not OHKOing it when you put into the equation that you have to put both a strong ass fast ice move on your team AND a strong ass fast dragon move on your team just to play around haban and yache chomp, if not your losing to one of those variants (icicle spear isn't as effective to beat down yache chomp because your going slower than Garchomp, which means that your dieng before you can hit it, here are some calcs n' stuff:
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 469-553 (110.61 - 130.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 138-164 (38.54 - 45.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
)
oh by the way guys, focus sash mamo loses to +2 chomp if mamo is at 99% or lower even without yache on chomp, wanna know why?
252 Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 276-328 (77.09 - 91.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 469-553 (110.61 - 130.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO
yep, you guessed it, ice shard without LO or CB fails to kill, this isn't trying to be a legitimate argument as much as it is a testament to chomps pure bulk.
guys, aqua tail on chomp is really the best last slot on chomp to use,
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in rain: 168-198 (51.37 - 60.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 252-298 (60 - 70.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in rain: 192-226 (56.8 - 66.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T in rain: 340-402 (89.23 - 105.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
it really loses all of it's switch ins
(fyi
+1 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 228-268 (59.84 - 70.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 252-297 (60 - 70.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
I have more but in the edit section this seems to be a bit of a long post, so I'll just leave it here. If I sound aggressive, sorry, I get that a lot for my posts but I'm not trying to be, this is all for fun and for the sake of competitive pokemon :p
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It warranted more than 1 test because it was banned, then un-banned again after Sand Veil was decided to really be the only broken thing about Chomper. DPPt Latias was actually considered, well, is being considered for re-testing at a later point. Look around RoA and there is a thread discussing how Latias could actually diverse the metagame, especially considering what Gen 4 has come too, FWG cores with Flygon or Rotom added on. It was hard to make a decision whether it was broken or not, I don't see how that makes it anymore broken. Sand Veil had a lot to do with Evasion Clause, which was in general a very haxxy move which was just a complete and utter joke. It was very good that we banned it, it added un-needed luck in the game. SubSD Veil Gliscor was nowhere near broken, but Sand Veil overall just decreases the luck in games.
Basically, the amount of Suspect Tests doesn't mean anything is more broken, it just meant it was harder to decide if it was actually broken or not. Also, World Tour players? You mean World Cup?
Basically, the amount of Suspect Tests doesn't mean anything is more broken, it just meant it was harder to decide if it was actually broken or not. Also, World Tour players? You mean World Cup?
that was more of a fun fact rather than my argument, I point you to the point where I said "I'll type my real arguments out later" and my edit that happened later
about DPPt latias though:
I don't need to look on RoA, I was THERE, I was mainly lurking as a guest around stark mountain, but I am a pro-DPPt Latias person, I'm just pointing out a fun fact
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Alakazam w/o HP Ice is losing to dual CHOMP anyway, HP ICe Gengar is really a waste of gengar when it could be one of it's sets that got it to A rank, and Jolteon isn't that good in this current metagame, it finds itself being compared to thundurus-t for power and rotom-w for subtyping, levitate and bulk, and all of these are beaten by Yache Chomp regardless
And about that scarfer remark:
* 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 204-241 (56.98 - 67.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 714-842 (221.05 - 260.68%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 223-264 (62.29 - 73.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 429-505 (132.4 - 155.86%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*252 SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 192-226 (53.63 - 63.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 526-619 (175.91 - 207.02%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And if you really want to argue scarf dragons, then unless you want to base near (or more) half your team around countering chomp, then your argument falls completely to haban chomp:
*252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haban Berry Garchomp: 211-249 (58.93 - 69.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
We know chomp OHKOs back lol
*252 Atk Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haban Berry Garchomp: 250-295 (69.83 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 780-920 (199.48 - 235.29%) -- guaranteed OHKO
OVERKILL
*252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Haban Berry Garchomp: 262-309 (73.18 - 86.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Again this kills back
However we could say that "it's better on paper not in practice" but we all know when you see chomp in a foes line up, that you will have to play around it, or it will do it's job extremely well and more
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Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
As good as chomp is, it doesn't fit into that description. Garchomp can't boost speed, so any faster pokemon can come in an kill it with ease, stopping a sweep. As far as walling goes, name one good player who runs a wall set. Finally, garchomp's team support stops and ends with stealth rock.
As good as chomp is, it doesn't fit into that description. Garchomp can't boost speed, so any faster pokemon can come in an kill it with ease, stopping a sweep. As far as walling goes, name one good player who runs a wall set. Finally, garchomp's team support stops and ends with stealth rock.
Chansey for B+. A small change I'm aware but it manages to wall many threats Blissey can't handle. Boasting the ability the ability to take psyshocks while still walling a variety of special threats not named Keldeo. The fact it can actually take physical hits means it's not forced out nearly as much easing prediction, with that said it's more vulnerable to being tricked than Blissey and can't dish out hits to save it's life. Still, it's unbeatable bulk warrants a place higher than where it currently stands.
As I pointed out, the fact that garchomp will die to anything faster is pretty much bullshit.
Not only is subsalac chomp one of the best sweepers in this meta, but in general chomp isn't revenged that easily.
Chomp is an bulky fast, and strong offensive sweeper or even SR lead support, it's one of the best offensive SR setters and one of the best sweepers. The same is with keldeo and keldeo has less bulk so it's revenged easier! not only that, but we could go on forever and ever about how picky we can be with S rank pokemon, bottom line is, garchomp is one of the best pokemon in this entire OU metagame, and it deserves to be recognized for that
Heck chomp pretty much fits into any team and can make it better unless your running some crazy kind of lando-t + dragonite rain stall team, in that case chomp better back off. the only reason to not use chomp is if your stacking way too much weaknesses, which you shouldn't even be doing in the first place
I'm really sensing some weak arguments that just don't make sense to me
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What I'm saying is that you're making your own argument invalid due to how rare Specially Defensive Scizor is, while you shake off any arguments that Jirachi can beat Scizor by saying "Those sets aren't used much so it doesn't really matter."
Well, what if the Jirachi in question does run such a set that can beat Scizor (SubCM, any set with Fire Punch / HP Fire)? The fact that Jirachi can beat Scizor is important. Many players won't run Specially defensive Scizor to beat Jirachi anyway, and it's not even guaranteed to beat Jirachi. The fact that Jirachi can screw over many if its counters with the right set makes it so versatile. S Rank fits Jirachi just fine.
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