They had to stop drought, vulpix simply happened to be the only thing below OU with drought. Ninetales can run no moves and its still nearly the same as a bulky status tales. If the opponent didn't bring an enemy weather you can lead with tells and them you're essentially down 6-5. Also Ninetales requires a large amount of support itself, I simply can't see a support pokemon that needs support being a - rank.
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OU The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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I agree, ninetales is even used on teams as an anti weather pokemon as some teams would rather have sun than sand hail or rain. Thats all i have to say for now on ninetails, I am too tiered to think, i just wanted to agree.
Ninetales definitively isn't a B-Tier pokémon by any means. It may be a crappy pokémon, but it at least has some supportive capatibilities - and I am not even talking about Drought, which is a fantastic support that by itself makes Ninetales an A-Tier Pokémon.
The only reason why I don't agree that it's S, is because I think that at this point you are also talking about what your Ninetales can do for your team, outside summoning sun, and unfortunately, it isn't much. Ninetales just doesn't have the same survivability that Politoed have, thanks to the latter's better defensive typing, better defenses and neutrality to Stealth Rock.
The only reason why I don't agree that it's S, is because I think that at this point you are also talking about what your Ninetales can do for your team, outside summoning sun, and unfortunately, it isn't much. Ninetales just doesn't have the same survivability that Politoed have, thanks to the latter's better defensive typing, better defenses and neutrality to Stealth Rock.
Well, I haven't played much BW2 OU, and am really not qualified to discuss something that requires so much in battle experience as viability, but this post just has so many misconceptions that I have to respond.
You've clearly never played Ninetales besides the occasional bog standard defensive set. Ninetales actually has quite a bit of variety in terms of sets as well as utility in it's movepool. Sunny Day Ninetales can change the complexion of a weather war at moments notice, and keeps Politoed on the run for the most part. Ninetales also has Roar and status moves to prevent itself from being set up fodder. If you're feeling ballsy, you can even try a Nasty Plot set, because a +2 sun boosted Fire Blast will hurt if you're unprepared.
Seems like a valid point... except that Politoed isn't exactly a catch all check to multiple OU powerhouses either. Sure, if you suicide with Ninetales against a non-weather team, you'll be 5v6, but have you factored in how dominant the likes of Volcarona, Venusaur, and Heatran are if left uninhibited? I'm sure everyone's had the misfortune of facing the wrath of a Keldeo, Tornadus-T, or Starmie in the rain. They just deal so much damage and are such a pain to play around, requiring the utmost caution with every move. don't they feel like they had the power of 2/3 Pokemon? If sun faces non-weather, I'm any competent opponent would play it cautiously and treat it like a 6v7 than go aggressive like they would a 6v5.
Lets see, Ninetales needs: Stealth Rock removed, Pokes that help in weather wars, Pokemon to work around fire resists like Heatran. You know what all these needs have in common? You would have all of these already, as most sun sweepers need this kind of support anyway. Even if it were Heatran who had Drought, you would still have Pokemon who could remove Stealth Rock, Rain and Sand checks, and Pokemon who can play around sun checks. Unless of course you want your sweepers to be picked off with ease.
You've clearly never played Ninetales besides the occasional bog standard defensive set. Ninetales actually has quite a bit of variety in terms of sets as well as utility in it's movepool. Sunny Day Ninetales can change the complexion of a weather war at moments notice, and keeps Politoed on the run for the most part. Ninetales also has Roar and status moves to prevent itself from being set up fodder. If you're feeling ballsy, you can even try a Nasty Plot set, because a +2 sun boosted Fire Blast will hurt if you're unprepared.
Seems like a valid point... except that Politoed isn't exactly a catch all check to multiple OU powerhouses either. Sure, if you suicide with Ninetales against a non-weather team, you'll be 5v6, but have you factored in how dominant the likes of Volcarona, Venusaur, and Heatran are if left uninhibited? I'm sure everyone's had the misfortune of facing the wrath of a Keldeo, Tornadus-T, or Starmie in the rain. They just deal so much damage and are such a pain to play around, requiring the utmost caution with every move. don't they feel like they had the power of 2/3 Pokemon? If sun faces non-weather, I'm any competent opponent would play it cautiously and treat it like a 6v7 than go aggressive like they would a 6v5.
Lets see, Ninetales needs: Stealth Rock removed, Pokes that help in weather wars, Pokemon to work around fire resists like Heatran. You know what all these needs have in common? You would have all of these already, as most sun sweepers need this kind of support anyway. Even if it were Heatran who had Drought, you would still have Pokemon who could remove Stealth Rock, Rain and Sand checks, and Pokemon who can play around sun checks. Unless of course you want your sweepers to be picked off with ease.
That statement about Ninetales being an anti-weather Pokemon is false. Sun IS the weather that other setters are trying to prevent, and if those other setters didn't exist, Nintetales would either have been an S-ranked OU or D-ranked Uber by now. Ninetales itself simply doesn't stack up as an anti-weather Pokemon, considering its inability to switch in on other setters safely. It should almost always appear on dedicated Sun teams.
Full disclosure:
I'm not actively ignoring every post made in this thread, i'm deliberately trying to think of ways I can edit the ranking list without being arbitrary. In the case of Ferrothorn being A-tier, i've already posted my thoughts on it before
and while my opinion hasn't changed, I want to hear more feedback. Is Ferrothorn really A-tier? I want to hear more arguments before I make any overt changes.
As for other cases like Mew; i'm honestly not sure where to tier it and I have no idea how it performs in the metagame. I guess I could put it in C or B-tier but I think it would be best if I hold back on tiering it until after the suspect test (that way we'll know for sure if its presence in OU will be permanent or not). Thoughts?
PS: Truth be told, I'm thinking of lowering a bunch of Pokemon that are profoundly affected by Genesect (Haxorus, Hydreigon, Zam, etc) since there's really no point to using them. Thoughts on this too?
I'm not actively ignoring every post made in this thread, i'm deliberately trying to think of ways I can edit the ranking list without being arbitrary. In the case of Ferrothorn being A-tier, i've already posted my thoughts on it before
and while my opinion hasn't changed, I want to hear more feedback. Is Ferrothorn really A-tier? I want to hear more arguments before I make any overt changes.
As for other cases like Mew; i'm honestly not sure where to tier it and I have no idea how it performs in the metagame. I guess I could put it in C or B-tier but I think it would be best if I hold back on tiering it until after the suspect test (that way we'll know for sure if its presence in OU will be permanent or not). Thoughts?
PS: Truth be told, I'm thinking of lowering a bunch of Pokemon that are profoundly affected by Genesect (Haxorus, Hydreigon, Zam, etc) since there's really no point to using them. Thoughts on this too?
The last page was pretty much an entire page of support for Ferrothorn being an A-Ranked Pokemon...
Anyway, I wouldn't lower Pokemon like Hydreigon, Haxorus, etc. until after the suspect test. Even if Genesect stayed OU, Zam should still be B-tiered. Since Zam *can* OHKO with an HP Fire (which it runs a lot for other Pokemon like Forretress and Scizor), outspeeds non Choice Scarf variants, and more, I wouldn't say it would be a potential dropdown regardless, even if the scarf is the best set (it had even more issues with Scizor, which was more common in OU, at one point anyway).
Anyway, I wouldn't lower Pokemon like Hydreigon, Haxorus, etc. until after the suspect test. Even if Genesect stayed OU, Zam should still be B-tiered. Since Zam *can* OHKO with an HP Fire (which it runs a lot for other Pokemon like Forretress and Scizor), outspeeds non Choice Scarf variants, and more, I wouldn't say it would be a potential dropdown regardless, even if the scarf is the best set (it had even more issues with Scizor, which was more common in OU, at one point anyway).
@PK
A ton of posts about why Ferrothorn is A rank have already been made. I don't think anything else can be said. If you don't want to put it there that's another matter, but most people here (both good and bad) believe that it is A rank material. Finally i don't even know what the last sentence is meant to prove... Deo-D makes Ferro its bitch? Deo-D does that do every single poke that is slower and can't OHKO/2HKO, as if Deo-D gets SR and Spikes it has done its job. That's why Deo-D is a suspect in the first place, because it can set-up and prevent set-up against so many Pokemon.
A ton of posts about why Ferrothorn is A rank have already been made. I don't think anything else can be said. If you don't want to put it there that's another matter, but most people here (both good and bad) believe that it is A rank material. Finally i don't even know what the last sentence is meant to prove... Deo-D makes Ferro its bitch? Deo-D does that do every single poke that is slower and can't OHKO/2HKO, as if Deo-D gets SR and Spikes it has done its job. That's why Deo-D is a suspect in the first place, because it can set-up and prevent set-up against so many Pokemon.
Personally, I can't see how Ferrothorn could possibly be A-ranked. I never had trouble with it, and when I used it, I found it consistently underwhelming. It's murdered by pretty much every Fighting-type in the tier, which isn't exactly doing it any favors. Hell, I've been able to exploit its 4x Fire weakness even in Rain. As for tanking Dragon moves... The only Dragons I can think of that don't carry Fire moves often are Kyurem-B and Rain Dragonite. As a Spike-stacker, I found Deoxys-D to be 100% better 100% of the time since Deoxys-D has actually usable Speed and Taunt. Pokemon that beat Ferrothorn? Well, Taunt from Deoxys-D shuts it down completely, but there's also Breloom, Lucario, Volcarona, Heatran, Genesect, Keldeo, Terrakion, Magnezone, Ninetales, and.... Okay, the list is already massive. Basically, OU is full of crap that Ferrothorn isn't so good against. I mean, yeah, it has a load of resistances (naturally, it's a Steel-type), but its two weaknesses run rampant in the tier.
In my opinion, keep Ferrothorn in B rank.
In my opinion, keep Ferrothorn in B rank.
LucaroarkZ, I'm assuming you don't run a rain team since most rain teams don't have the many ways to deal with Ferrothorn. Even if the rain team you're using has many threats to Ferrothorn... mainly fighting pokemon, a simple switch suffices. It's job isn't to tank fighting or fire hits. I mean I suppose Excadrill is a shitty pokemon if your team is built with enough counters such that it's not even a threat.
The reason why Ferrothorn is so good is because of the prevalence of rain teams. If this was an alternative meta where sun was the predominant weather, ferrothorn wouldn't be great and Genesect wouldn't be suspect and probably would be A tier.
The reason why Ferrothorn is so good is because of the prevalence of rain teams. If this was an alternative meta where sun was the predominant weather, ferrothorn wouldn't be great and Genesect wouldn't be suspect and probably would be A tier.
What kind of idiot with a Rain team isn't going to run a way to beat Ferrothorn? Most of my teams actually aren't overloaded with Pokemon that can handle Ferro, most of my teams have one or two Pokemon wih Fighting/Fire moves by default. Rain isn't even as good as people make it out to be IMO, possibly because I've found Ferrothorn to be pitifully easy to handle.
Also, yes, maybe a simple switch suffices, but it doesn't change the fact that the metagame is full of threats Ferrothorn has a hard time wih.
Also, yes, maybe a simple switch suffices, but it doesn't change the fact that the metagame is full of threats Ferrothorn has a hard time wih.
I'm wondering why Gengar is B tier and not A tier :
- Its typing is great, 3 immunities, useful resistances to moves like bug. And allows Gengar to spin block.
- It has a great offensive presence, thanks to its access to the unresisted Fighting/Ghost combo
- It is INSANELY versatile, priority users like Scizor? MystikGar is there. Scarf users? they usually can't compete with Gengar's speed if he also has a Scarf.
Noone knows which move you run, is it Sub and Pain Split? or maybe Sub and Disable.. and who knows, maybe he'll take the spinner with him into the grave with Destinity Bond. He can even go for a bulky set and cripple your sweeper with Will O Wisp. And let's not forget the Hypnosis able to basically "kill" any counter you could throw at Gengar.
Pursuit? well the number of Pursuiter able to outspeed Gengar is damn low, and noone of these faster pursuiter resist Gengar's atacks. The slower Pursuiters have to kill the substitute and then get disabled.
There is no 100% way to counter a Gengar, and I see no spin blocker in the A tier. It's not an argument on its own, but this B tier is not deserved for a pokemon so high in the usage ranking. He fills many roles that noone else can do and it's one of the most versatile pokemon.
So to me, Gengar deserves A tier.
- Its typing is great, 3 immunities, useful resistances to moves like bug. And allows Gengar to spin block.
- It has a great offensive presence, thanks to its access to the unresisted Fighting/Ghost combo
- It is INSANELY versatile, priority users like Scizor? MystikGar is there. Scarf users? they usually can't compete with Gengar's speed if he also has a Scarf.
Noone knows which move you run, is it Sub and Pain Split? or maybe Sub and Disable.. and who knows, maybe he'll take the spinner with him into the grave with Destinity Bond. He can even go for a bulky set and cripple your sweeper with Will O Wisp. And let's not forget the Hypnosis able to basically "kill" any counter you could throw at Gengar.
Pursuit? well the number of Pursuiter able to outspeed Gengar is damn low, and noone of these faster pursuiter resist Gengar's atacks. The slower Pursuiters have to kill the substitute and then get disabled.
There is no 100% way to counter a Gengar, and I see no spin blocker in the A tier. It's not an argument on its own, but this B tier is not deserved for a pokemon so high in the usage ranking. He fills many roles that noone else can do and it's one of the most versatile pokemon.
So to me, Gengar deserves A tier.
3 immunities is useful, but... its resistances are not that useful with such horrible defenses... it's pretty much dying to most neutral attacks. Even +1 unSTABed Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Flamethrower 2HKOes him, and Gengar is going to take a lot of damage from any non-Bug-type attack.
I think we have hammered out where most of the OU Pokemon really belong, so I'd really like to see some discussion over lower tier Pokemon, such as:
Stoutland -- Excellent sand sweeper, used successfully in many teams. Low B-tier I think
Victini -- The premier fire-type sweeper. B-Tier.
Darmanitan -- Possibly outclassed by Victini but still incredible. C-tier
Azumarill -- Able to revenge a whole host of threats. C-tier
Lilligant, Sawsbuck, Victrebell -- Can be outclassed by Venusaur, but each have their niche C-tier, D for Bell
Ditto -- everyone knows what he does. For some reason, he was a lot better in DW than he is in OU. Probably because of team preview. C-Tier
Azelf, Mew, Aeodactyl -- Solid suicide leads, although they are outclassed by Deo-D most of the time
Quagsire -- solid answer to most set up sweepers, except that (censored) Genesect
Where do ya'll think these Pokemon fit into the bigger OU picture?
Stoutland -- Excellent sand sweeper, used successfully in many teams. Low B-tier I think
Victini -- The premier fire-type sweeper. B-Tier.
Darmanitan -- Possibly outclassed by Victini but still incredible. C-tier
Azumarill -- Able to revenge a whole host of threats. C-tier
Lilligant, Sawsbuck, Victrebell -- Can be outclassed by Venusaur, but each have their niche C-tier, D for Bell
Ditto -- everyone knows what he does. For some reason, he was a lot better in DW than he is in OU. Probably because of team preview. C-Tier
Azelf, Mew, Aeodactyl -- Solid suicide leads, although they are outclassed by Deo-D most of the time
Quagsire -- solid answer to most set up sweepers, except that (censored) Genesect
Where do ya'll think these Pokemon fit into the bigger OU picture?
It's not that rain teams don't have any way of dealing with Ferrothorn, just that it's significantly harder without strong fire attacks. I mean tentacruel burn can easily take care of ferrothorn, but everyone runs a way to beat genesect, but it doesn't change the fact that it's amazing. Not every rain team runs a fighting move and any person that keeps ferrothorn in to take a fighting attack is an idiot.
Gengar's a good Pokemon and does have a good defensive typing, but its problem is its lack of bulk. I've used Gengar for spinblocking quite a bit, and it's incredibly difficult to switch in compared to Jellicent because of its lack of bulk. It also doesn't last that long unless you run SubSplit, which isn't as good as it was in DPP. Although Gengar is faster than most of the Pursuit users, Scizor has Bullet Punch and I'm pretty sure Tyranitar survives Focus Blast thanks to Sand. Jellicent is absolutely the better spinblocker because it has what Gengar doesn't: Bulk and Recover. Jellicent can actually survive attacks from Starmie, while Gengar... Not so much. Jellicent also doesn't attract Scizor; Gengar does. That should end the spinblocker discussion on Gengar.
Bulky Gengar is terrible, this isn't ADV. People have used that as a spinblocker in ADV, but in no way is Gengar's bulk good in this generation, even with investment. MYSTICgar? Don't get me started on MYSTICgar. You may be able to Protect to scout CB Scizor, but Swords Dance Scizor can outright set up on your Protect. Please just use real answers to Scizor. Specially Defensive Tyranitar survives your Focus Blast and kills you anyway, and ScarfTar's Pursuit OHKOes after Stealth Rock and Sand damage, regardless of switch. When we get into UU Pursuit users... Or, to be more specific, Weavile, well, Gengar is slower. It may have unresisted Fighting/Ghost, but don't forget that Shadow Ball is its strongest usable STAB. It's not Hidden Power weak, but I've still found that you need to attach Life Orb to do respectable damage with Shadow Ball. If only Gengar had Nasty Plot or something.
Genesect is obviously the new craze of the metagame, but I don't think it really warrants dropping these otherwise solid Pokemon. Zam is still a great Pokemkn that has many uses as a back up revenge killer or offensive check. It can easily take on HO teams with ease from my experience and is a pretty cool Pokemkn to use in general. I really don't think Alakazam deserves to be dropped, we should at least wait until the suspect test ends until we make any decisions. Alakazam also can deal a heavy amount of damage with Focus Blast or Hidden Power Fire, not making it completely helpless. Being immune to weather and hazards is a gift and really allows it to shine. Alakazam deserves to stay where it is. I don't like how it can easily be taken advantage of, but Zam was given a gift this generation of a great ability and makes use of it fine. Even better it can defeat and outspeed Terrakion, Landorus - I, Garchomp, Latios, Gengar and Starmie with ease.
Haxorus I can agree with as it never was really an amazing Pokemon to me anyway, especially with Genesect running around. It had some pretty cool roles in BW1 as it could slam through walls with ease and do a great job at setting up and sweeping, not being forced to use Outrage thanks to Mold Breaker. Taunt was also a pretty cool move to use as you can prevent slower hazard users like Heatran, Deoxys -D ( Jolly ), Forretress and Skarmory. Haxorus just isn't as good anymore personally and just fails to do well. Dragonite is honestly a better dancer as it has more uses like bulky sets, support sets, acess to priority so it doesn't get screwed over by faster weakened Scarfers like Keldeo, Latios and Landorus. It also is a great counter to Breloom as it can easily take Mach Punch or Bullet Seed while Lum Berry can cure status of Spore if needed. Lower Haxorus as it doesn't have as many uses.
Hydreigon is a great Poke, people just don't use it much. It has some distinct advantages over Latios. It may be slower but it has acess to Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Earth Power, Superpower, Work Up, and acess to the strongest viable Draco Meteor in the game. Latios is not going to be running a Modest Nature, which Hydreigon does just fine as Timid doesn't offer many distinct advantages. Hydreigon doesn't need to be walled by Jirachi or other bulky special walls like Blissey thanks to Fire Blast and Flamethrower. It is not helpless to Genesect as Genesect is not going to be coming into any move from Hydreigon aside from Dark Pulse or Earth Power that will do less than 50% to it. Hydreigon is an awesome Pokemon who is sadly overshadowed by Latios. It has some flaws though like that weakness to virtually all priority that is commonly seen. But overall it really is a solid choice for teams that often gets overlooked a lot for the faster choices like Latias and Latios. Hydreigon getting Roost and Superpower gave him even more viability as it can now break stall up pretty easily while still staying Healthy. Hydreigon also has access to U-Turn to gain momentum which is just another amazing choice. I would argue Hydreigon for A Rank, but that's for another post.
How is Metagross more trouble than its worth?
'gross is basically outclassed by a lot of things. Offensively, its pointless to run because Steel/Psychic has awful coverage, and while it does have good coverage with the elemental punches, its more useful to use something that can throw its STABs around without getting walled. Its does have access to Bullet Punch, but Scizor outclasses it there, and its has other things that make it a better choice (U-turn). Its Sp Attack is too weak to be scary with a mixed set, and to top it off, it has an awkward Speed tier, leaving it outsped by quite a bit.
Defensively, and in the support department, it is completely inferior to Jirachi. Rachi has the same typing, better general bulk, and most importantly, a superior movepool and ability. Jirachi can do everything Metagross can, while paralyzing and flinching things to death, and providing Wish support for its teammates. Metagross can set up SR pretty reliably, but that isn't enough.
Not convincing me at all.
You argue like Gengar is some kind of tank, while it's not. Obvsly Jellicent is more useful in this role, but I believe you wont put Jellicent with Deoxys-D you'll chose Gengar, and it will spin block. Get a scarf set with Destiny I'm sure your hazard wont get spinned away. Moreover you will can put an insane offensive pressure than Jellicent.. well Jellicent is just a totally different deal. It's like comparing Scolipede and Forretress as spiker or something like that..
Then you list threats, and well I know for each of these threat a way to shut them down with the right Gengar build. Juge a pokemon potential on what you usually see/use is seriously a mistake.
You argue like Gengar is some kind of tank, while it's not. Obvsly Jellicent is more useful in this role, but I believe you wont put Jellicent with Deoxys-D you'll chose Gengar, and it will spin block. Get a scarf set with Destiny I'm sure your hazard wont get spinned away. Moreover you will can put an insane offensive pressure than Jellicent.. well Jellicent is just a totally different deal. It's like comparing Scolipede and Forretress as spiker or something like that..
Then you list threats, and well I know for each of these threat a way to shut them down with the right Gengar build. Juge a pokemon potential on what you usually see/use is seriously a mistake.
Pretty sure you're the one who brought up "bulky set" in the first place.
Even on offensive teams, Gengar is still a mediocre spinblocker due to its frailty. Using a Scarf set with Destiny Bond still doesn't change the fact that Gengar can't switch in on Starmie worth a damn. Also, if Scarf Gengar doesn't get killed after using Destiny Bond, then it becomes the largest setup bait ever. Not exactly appealing to me. I'd rather use Jellicent, a far more reliable spinblocker. Hell, with my offensive teams, I often just find myself not bothering with spinblocking; I haven't found it too difficult to make spinners hesitant of switching in in the first place. Not too keen on having to resort to using a mediocre spinblocker that is neither powerful nor bulky. Fun fact, SubDisable Gengar's Shadow Ball is so weak, it doesn't OHKO Dual Screens Espeon:
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 272-324 (81.43 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While on the other side of the field...
0 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 308-366 (117.55 - 139.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And this isn't even considering the fact that you have to win the speed tie.
Doesn't OHKO Breloom either, and when you're so weak you don't OHKO something as frail as Breloom, that's kind of sad.
I honestly can't judge where Gengar is placed because I haven't used it, but I found the claim that Gengar couldn't OHKO Espeon very hard to believe. I found that the way that LukaroarkZ put it was w/o Life Orb, which is understandable. However, 5 out of the sets that Gengar runs in the top 10 usage on PO carry Life Orb in Regular Usage and on Global usage 6/10 of the top 10 sets carry Focus Sash and 2/10 carry Life Orb.
Calc:
252 SpAtk Life Orb Gengar (Neutral) Shadow Ball vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Espeon (Neutral): 105% - 125% (354 - 420 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
Calc:
252 SpAtk Life Orb Gengar (Neutral) Shadow Ball vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Espeon (Neutral): 105% - 125% (354 - 420 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
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