OU The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Tressed]

On a seprate note, I would like to nominate exeguttor for C-Rank. Exeguttor has two powerful STABs in leaf storm and psychic. It can run a swords dance set thanks to it's access to wood hammer, natural power and zen headbutt. This set is powerful enough to OHKO tyranitar, heatran and latios. Exeguttor may seem weak when compared to venasuar, but STAB psychic moves and access to leaf storm allow it to differentiate itself. While STAB on psychic moves doesn't seem very helpful, it allows exeguttor to do great Damage to toxicroak, who would normally wall venusaur. Exeguttor is a powerful force in the metagame, despite not being as powerful as latios and Keldeo.

Meh, I don't think its justified. Exeggutor is slow, and even after the Chlorophyll boost, its gonna get outsped by quite a few scarfers. Its Sp Defense doesn't do it any favors, either, and of course being quad weak to U-Turn sucks as well. Moreover, its rather outclassed by other Chloro Pokes. Venusaur does full out special or mixed better, while I'd rather use Victreebel or Sawsbuck for physical sweepers.
Also, nitpick, but Toxicroak isn't a problem for Venusaur at all. Physical/Mixed variants, of course, will be packing Earthquake, while the full out special ones 2HKO Toxicroak with HP Fire, and of course there's Sleep Powder as well.

 

[Magcargo]

Meh, I don't think its justified. Exeggutor is slow, and even after the Chlorophyll boost, its gonna get outsped by quite a few scarfers. Its Sp Defense doesn't do it any favors, either, and of course being quad weak to U-Turn sucks as well. Moreover, its rather outclassed by other Chloro Pokes. Venusaur does full out special or mixed better, while I'd rather use Victreebel or Sawsbuck for physical sweepers.
Also, nitpick, but Toxicroak isn't a problem for Venusaur at all. Physical/Mixed variants, of course, will be packing Earthquake, while the full out special ones 2HKO Toxicroak with HP Fire, and of course there's Sleep Powder as well.

Exeguttor can outspeed all scarfers with base 86 speed or less. The only common scarfers that carry u-turn that aren't outsped are landuros i and t. Venasuar doesn't necessarily do the mixed sets better because exeguttor can lure and KO ttar and heatran with wood hammer and nature power respectively. Also, Exeguttor has higher base special attack, and leaf storm, meaning that venasaur doesn't really do the special sets better. Swords dance exeguttor isn't outclassed by sawsbuck and victreebel because victreebel doesn't have great coverage and sawsbuck lacks low kick and wood hammer.

 

[SJCrew]

Exeggutor is way outclassed by Sawsbuck as a physical attacker of any kind. Sawsbuck has the highest speed of any viable Chlorophyll sweeper (allowing it to check other Chloro sweeper, all viable OU Scarfers, and anything at +1 Speed) and has a supreme physical movepool and superior secondary STAB that puts it leagues above anything Exeggutor does. Also, physical Exeggutor cannot beat Skarmory without going mixed, but Sawsbuck can simply use Wild Charge, which can KO at +2 after Stealth Rock damage.

The only things Exeggutor really has on Sawsbuck are Sleep Powder and priority resistance (less damage from Bullet Punch/Ice Shard, resists Mach Punch), but Venusaur has those very same perks. On top of that, Exeggutor is a liability in match ups against enemy Sun teams that WILL be using Venusaur and faster Scarfers that don't have to use U-turn to beat Exeggutor (HP Ice from Keldeo rips through his terrible Sp. Def, Scarf Rak kills with X-Scissor, Scarfed Dragons with Fire move, Draco Meteor, or Outrage, etc.)

Btw, did I forget to mention that Exeggutor has to run Jolly to outspeed ANYTHING in the higher speed tiers? Sawsbuck can tear through everything with Adamant but Exeggutor can't even beat any Scarfers with that.

 

[Meru]

Nobody is going to run Wild Charge on Sawsbuck. SD/Horn Leech/Double-Edge are staples but choosing Wild Charge over Nature Power or Jump Kick causes you to be walled by much more prominent and troublesome pokes to Sun, such as Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Heatran, Magnezone, etc. Wild Charge is pretty much ONLY used for Skarmory, the least of a Sun team's worries.

 

[False Sense]

You know, Sawsbuck doesn't actually have a place on the Viability Ranks yet. What Rank do you guys think it would be? C-Rank?

 

[Eleman]

Sawsbuck is a better physical sweeper, that I can agree with. However, Exeggutor can be effective if you know how to use it. It's mostly meant to hit as hard as it can with its powerful STABs. It doesn't necessarily mean that it HAS to outspeed everything. Also, most of you are forgetting that Exeggutor has other team members that will cover up its weaknesses and directly counter its opponents.

 

[Ninetale3]

Sawsbuck is a better physical sweeper, that I can agree with. However, Exeggutor can be effective if you know how to use it. It's mostly meant to hit as hard as it can with its powerful STABs. It doesn't necessarily mean that it HAS to outspeed everything.

This I can agree with. Exeggutor really is more of a hit and run attacker and does this incredibly well. In my short time with exeggutor it ended up doing this but rarely feared the off chance of pursuit as it could hurt most of the users of the move especially in the mixed attacker set.

 

[Magcargo]

Exeguttor's main niche is going mixed. Many people think that venusaur is a better pokemon in this role, but that is not nessesarily true. Exeguttor has a powerful STAB wood hammer and low kick, both doing massive damage to tyranitar.

Also, I would say that sawsbuck would be B-rank if added. it is a pretty good mon with decent coverage and has similar stats to stoutland.

 

[TCTphantom]

I know I will get no support for this, but Jirachi for S tier. At least, IMO...

Jirachi can fill so many roles for a team its not even funny. Need a bulky pokemon with Wish and SR? Jirachi breathes new life into your powerhouses with a maximum wish of 202 HP. Considering most OU pokes end up falling short of the 100 HP mark, most OU pokes will be healed over half. Not to mention Raichi get rocks on the field. But can't Bilssey do the same thing? Yes, but ultimately, not quite. Blissey's main issue is that something will hit its Physical Defense, weakening it severely. Not to mention, Blissey has a lesser offensive presence in this support role than Raichi, as with ParaFlinch, via Iron Head and Thunder-Wave/Bodyslam with 60% chance of paralysis, that precious Landorus or Garchomp is out of the match.

Jirachi can also take advantage of the prevalence of Rain. With weatherless taking a hit with the final departure of a Deoxys forme, Rain seems to be even stronger. Jirachi can run a SubCM set and use Parafusion to weaken its counters. In the Rain, the seemingly weak Water Pulse is given pseudo STAB, allowing Jirachi to annoy the crap out of its rivals with a 40% confusion, coupled with a perfectly accurate Thunder with a 60% chance of paralysis.

Jirachi can also be a very effective revenge killer with a Choice Scarf. Threats like Mence, Kyurem B, and Tyranitar, all top threats of this meta, will fall to Raichi, especially if they are choiced and locked into a Dragon/Rock move...


Are there downsides to Jirachi? Yes, though few. Its weakness to Fire is negated by the common Rain, but then Water gets a boost. Not to mention its still weak to the common Ground type. However, most Rain teams run something that can absorb these hits, and finding something to take hits like that for Raichi is easy. Jellicent, Vaporeon, and Toxicroak, all common rain abusers like Raichi, can take on Waters with ease. Any flying type such as Thundurus T or Landorus T can switch in on a Ground move as well...

Bottom line, Jirachi can fill many roles, and does not require too much support to be great, as its sets involving Serene Grace can bypass counters, while it can support a team easily with Wish and its tanky nature...

 

[Magcargo]

Well, Jirachi is a versatile mon, but it lacks raw power. It has to rely on paraflinching to do most of its damage. Also, a weakness to ground is never a good thing.

 

[SJCrew]

Nobody is going to run Wild Charge on Sawsbuck. SD/Horn Leech/Double-Edge are staples but choosing Wild Charge over Nature Power or Jump Kick causes you to be walled by much more prominent and troublesome pokes to Sun, such as Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Heatran, Magnezone, etc. Wild Charge is pretty much ONLY used for Skarmory, the least of a Sun team's worries.

We're talking about two Pokemon that can't beat Skarmory with a physical set. Skarm is more than likely going to show up with defensive partners, including a spinblocker, if not an outright stall team, so it is crucial for Sun to not let them get up any spikes in addition to SR damage that Ninetales will probably be taking. I mean, yeah, you could be running Xatu, but that's a whole other list of variables. It all boils down to having one less wall for your sweeper and perhaps checking Gyarados.

What I'm getting at is that Wild Charge is good alternative to Horn Leech. Beating more Pokemon is more important than the healing from Horn Leech, and you're only getting ~112 BP total out of the STAB boost from Horn Leech compared to Wild Charge. It's not a huge lead. You can go Return/Wild Charge/Nature Power if you're worried about the recoil, or Double Edge/Horn Leech/Jump Kick if you're willing to accept that Saws won't be doing much with Skarm around. I'm usually greedy and just run Double Edge and Wild Charge.

Do bear in mind that SD isn't the ONLY physical set Sawsbuck can run. There's also Choice Band, which is basically Sun Stoutland, but better. Beats boosting sweepers. You can afford to run Wild Charge as a fourth move on CB and just 2HKO a Skarm switch-in as they switch out a Water type (because you know they're looking for Horn Leech). On CB, I usually run Double Edge, Horn Leech, Wild Charge, and Nature Power. Use it, it kicks ass.

 

[Magcargo]

I'm a bit sketchy on the jirachi proposal. Like Tabuu said, the attacking sets are A-rank while the support set is S-rank.

On the flipside, I would ike to nominate Jellicent for A-Rank. Jellicent is a great mon in ou, forming the popular jellithorn core. It's defenses are solid and its base 85 special attack isn't bad for a wall. It walls pokemon like keldeo and politoed all day long, forcing them to run hidden power. I admit jellicent has its faults, such as being destroyed by grass types, but it's unique typing and amazing movepool make it A-Rank in my opinion.

 

[False Sense]

On the subject of Jellicent and Hydreigon...

Jellicent is something that I could see going up to A-Rank. Tabuu listed most of it's good qualities above, but I'd like to add to that. Something you didn't mention is that it's a fantastic user of the move Taunt. While Jellicent is slow, it's speed is actually higher than most walls, and with some investment it can out speed and shut down the majority of walls in OU, and is great for preventing hazards or just breaking stall.
Now, Tabuu mentioned that it's main flaws are its weakness to Pursuit, Volt Switch, and Drought. Well, it's not really working past Drought, but it still has uses against Sun teams. Pursuit can actually be made into a non issue if Jellicent can burn the attacker, in which case it's defenses will allow it to survive and escape. Volt Switch looks like a problem, but lets look at the most common user of it: Rotom-W. Something that I've learned from personal experience is that a Volt Switch from a Rotom-W with little to no Sp. Atk investment (like the Specially Defensive set) will only do around 40% to Jellicent. That's very easy for Jellicent to Recover off. I've literally played matches where the opponent had nothing strong enough to break through Jellicent's defenses. Yeah, Jellicent is pretty good.

Now Hydreigon is a bit tricky. There was a huge discussion about it not too long ago, actually. (I believe it starts on page 56.) While I support Hydreigon for A-Rank, PK Gaming is not very fond of the idea, so it'd be difficult to get Hydreigon moved up. Good luck though.

 

[Gary]

I want to quickly intro Hydreigon:
~With the ability to 2HKO or OHKO the entire metagame, this guy does not play games.
~Great typing and ability (although Fighting weakness really stinks)
~It's deceptively bulky.
~Pretty diverse. It can go offensive but has defensively oriented capabilities.
~Speed 97 really stops it from S-Tier.
~But honestly, with some Para support or maybe even Tailwind it can alleviate its problems. Then with increased speed, Hydreigon can sweep a significant portion of the metagame, no questions asked.
~Hydreigon will struggle though with things like Terrakion and Keldeo and Techniloom.
~But then again, with the Sub set, Everything is going to die walking into Hydreigon.
~Hydreigon is also blessed with the ability to work VERY well under almost any playstyle and weather.
~Hydreigon for A-Tier my friends. and good night ;]

As I've already petitioned for Hydreigon being bumped up to A-Rank, I definitely second this suggestion. It seems like the only thing that keeps people from wanting to move him up, is due to his lackluster performance under Rain, and weakness to common priority. Since his Fire Blast coverage for Steel and Grass types are heavily nerfed under Rain, and being the frail Dragon that he is, he can't really afford taking damage back. Breloom and even Scizor can be quite a problem as well since Hydreigon is easily KOed by Breloom and Bullet Punch does a huge chunk to it as well. With that said however, Hydreigon is so destructive to pretty much every single team out there, weather or not, because of his extremely powerful STAB Draco Meteor, unpredictable move sets because of his huge move pool, and the ability to even KO it's common counters such as Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, Specially Defensive Heatran, and Jirachi outside of Rain, heck even Blissey is 2HKOed by Superpower and Chansey is 2HKOed after Stealth Rocks. It's just such a force to be reckoned with. Not many Pokemon out there can beat out there own counters, and Hydreigon needs little team support to succeed. If it gets a free switch into something, something is either going to faint or take massive damage, leaving it as death fodder for later. There are hardly any decent OU Pokemon that can run a very successful mixed set like Hydreigon, which makes Hydreigon even more unique. He's easy to revenge kill, but almost impossible to counter, hits pretty much the entire meta game for super effective damage with just 4 moves, unpredictable and versatile, and can beat out most if not ALL of his counters. This is why I agree with Tabuu in moving Hydreigon up to A-Rank.

 

[Magcargo]

I also support that Hydreigon should be moved up to A-Rank. While many people believe that he is ouclassed by Lati@s, Hydreigon has many key advantages. Access to focus blast and fire blast means that it isn't walled by ferrothorn or tyranitar and doesn't have to rely on a weak hidden power to beat them. 105 base attack allow hydreigon to go mixed, and this set has no true counters. While base 98 speed isn't that good, it is still enough to outspeed haxorus, Kyurem-b and landuros-t. Hydreigon has access to U-turn, making it the only viable dragon (sorry flygon) to be able to scout. This may sound funny, but Hydreigon learns a move of every type bar grass. Hydreigon is definetly a great pokemon that should be A-Rank, despite his shortcomings,.

 

[BurningMan]

I don't think Hydreigon should be A-Rank sure it will almost always get a kill once you get it in, but it is just too easy to revenge kill. It is the very definition of a wall breaker it comes in and nabs a kill but after that it will either have to switch out or get killed due to its sub par speed and weaknesses to some of the most common types like Fighting Dragon and Ice. The problem is that especially the Dragon or Fighting types that threaten Hydreigon are also common users of set-up moves like SubSD Terrakion, SD Garchomp, CM Keldeo or Moxie Salamence. Speaking of set-up moves Hydreigon has none outside of the useless Hone Claws and maybe Substitute/Tailwind so its kinda hard to take advantage off the many switches Hydreigon can force. One big plus Hydreigon has are its useful resistances as well as great bulk coupled with reliable recovery and being immune to spikes while only being neutral to SR wich can make it troublesome for stall teams.

However i wouldn't rank it over B-Rank even after Tornadus-T and Genesect got the boot it sounds a lot better on paper than it proves to be in a real battle since it requires quite some prediction skills and as mentioned is incredibly easy to revenge kill.


I am also against Garchomp in S-Rank it is a really solid A-Rank Pokemon with good bulk, great offensive stats and a fantastic STAB combination but 102 base speed is just to slow to sweep in this meta game considering that it gets no speed boosting moves. I mean it is a really great Pokemon but it is just not as great as something like Politoed, Keldeo, Landorus or Terrakion.

 

[Magcargo]

I don't think Hydreigon should be A-Rank sure it will almost always get a kill once you get it in, but it is just too easy to revenge kill. It is the very definition of a wall breaker it comes in and nabs a kill but after that it will either have to switch out or get killed due to its sub par speed and weaknesses to some of the most common types like Fighting Dragon and Ice. The problem is that especially the Dragon or Fighting types that threaten Hydreigon are also common users of set-up moves like SubSD Terrakion, SD Garchomp, CM Keldeo or Moxie Salamence. Speaking of set-up moves Hydreigon has none outside of the useless Hone Claws and maybe Substitute/Tailwind so its kinda hard to take advantage off the many switches Hydreigon can force. One big plus Hydreigon has are its useful resistances as well as great bulk coupled with reliable recovery and being immune to spikes while only being neutral to SR wich can make it troublesome for stall teams.

However i wouldn't rank it over B-Rank even after Tornadus-T and Genesect got the boot it sounds a lot better on paper than it proves to be in a real battle since it requires quite some prediction skills and as mentioned is incredibly easy to revenge kill.

I disgress. Pokemon such as salamence are weak to common dragon ice and rock attacks and still are A-rank. The only thing salmence can outspeed that hydreigon can't is Hydreigon. Hydreigon can make use of the odd U-turn to bring momentum to the users side. Tailwind is actually a big setup move for the hydra as it can now outpace the entire unboosted metagame. If you use tailwind, unless the foe is scarfed, nothing will want to switch into hydregion. Max speed tailwind hydreigon can reach a blazing 648 speed stat and destroy the entire metagame with its attacks. Hydreigon also happens to have T-Wave to cripple the foe. Hydreigon's common weaknesses can be handled by teammates and its speed can be handled with a bit of tailwind and T-Wave support, if you don't want to sacrifice a moveslot for them.

 

[False Sense]

I don't think Hydreigon should be A-Rank sure it will almost always get a kill once you get it in, but it is just too easy to revenge kill. It is the very definition of a wall breaker it comes in and nabs a kill but after that it will either have to switch out or get killed due to its sub par speed and weaknesses to some of the most common types like Fighting Dragon and Ice. The problem is that especially the Dragon or Fighting types that threaten Hydreigon are also common users of set-up moves like SubSD Terrakion, SD Garchomp, CM Keldeo or Moxie Salamence. Speaking of set-up moves Hydreigon has none outside of the useless Hone Claws and maybe Substitute/Tailwind so its kinda hard to take advantage off the many switches Hydreigon can force. One big plus Hydreigon has are its useful resistances as well as great bulk coupled with reliable recovery and being immune to spikes while only being neutral to SR wich can make it troublesome for stall teams.

However i wouldn't rank it over B-Rank even after Tornadus-T and Genesect got the boot it sounds a lot better on paper than it proves to be in a real battle since it requires quite some prediction skills and as mentioned is incredibly easy to revenge kill.

Now, it's true that Hydreigon can be revenge killed easily, but I think that it doesn't hurt it too much. Besides, look at some of the other pokemon in A-Rank. Kyurem-B, for example, is another devestating dragon that isn't much of a sweeper, but more of a wallbreaker. Kyurem-B is actually slower than Hydreigon, and on top of that is weak to Bullet Punch, Stealth Rocks, and is easier to wall. Yet it seems to be a solid A-Rank, while Hydreigon lurks in B-Rank. Why is that exactly?

 

[Magcargo]

This is just a nitpick but kyurem-b can actually survive moves like close combat from terrakion with a bit of investment.

 

[BurningMan]

I disgress. Pokemon such as salamence are weak to common dragon ice and rock attacks and still are A-rank. The only thing salmence can outspeed that hydreigon can't is Hydreigon. Hydreigon can make use of the odd U-turn to bring momentum to the users side. Tailwind is actually a big setup move for the hydra as it can now outpace the entire unboosted metagame. If you use tailwind, unless the foe is scarfed, nothing will want to switch into hydregion. Max speed tailwind hydreigon can reach a blazing 648 speed stat and destroy the entire metagame with its attacks.

Salamence is an amazing Cleaner with Scarf+Moxie and you can't compare Tailwind to something like Dragon Dance another serious problem is that Hydreigon either has to use an 80 BP STAB wich is way to weak against neutral targets to sweep or will cut its power in half meaning it will likely have to switch out. I don't know if you have actually played with Hydreigon but as i said its alot better on Paper than it plays out in an actual match against a good opponent as it requires serious prediction skills.

 

[Magcargo]

Well tailwind doubles your speed, and while it certainly isn't the best move, it still is viable on hydreigon. Hydreigon is often taunted because of its low speed, but tailwind can solve this problem. Draco meteor's power drop can be migated if you have U-Turn and while this does mean you lose the coverage from Superpower/Fireblast, it also mean hydreigon can act as a scout, providing major support to its team.

 

[Tripod]

Yay for Gary2346 and Magcargo 2's support for Hydreigon in A-Tier !

I think Hydreigon's argument has been solidly placed :]
It's pretty much up to others to either go against or PKGaming to make a call on Hydreigon. [and Garchomp!]
However, earlier, my boy FalseSense had suggested Jellicent for A-Tier. We've presented our side. So if there's no opposition, throw that boy into A-Tier as well :]

Haha okay. I have used Hydreigon a lot recently on PS and is just amazing. Its unpredictability is what makes it so fearsome. When Hydreigon is about to kill a wall there are five things that can happen.

• LO Kill
• Specs Switch where you get severely damaged
  • Draco Meteor v. 248 HP Scizor does max of 75% damage
• Substitute in your face
• Scarf where your Band Terrakion can think to live and kill
• E-Belt Bluff when you try to set-up

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Hydreigon is an excellent sweeper with T-Wave Support. Even after the SAtk drop, it still OHKOs Salamence with Life Orbwhich means it won't be setting up. 92/90 Defenses means it won't be killed that easily by Mamo's Ice Shard which is awesome. Many people forget how Reuniclus and Hydreigon, the two most underrated OU pokemon destroy stall teams part of the reason why they aren't that common today. Hydreigon demolishes stall and can almost always get 1-2 kills on other teams. I agree with all the other posters. PKGaming, Hydreigon for A-Rank!

 

[False Sense]

Salamence is an amazing Cleaner with Scarf+Moxie and you can't compare Tailwind to something like Dragon Dance another serious problem is that Hydreigon either has to use an 80 BP STAB wich is way to weak against neutral targets to sweep or will cut its power in half meaning it will likely have to switch out. I don't know if you have actually played with Hydreigon but as i said its alot better on Paper than it plays out in an actual match against a good opponent as it requires serious prediction skills.

You're acting as though Hydreigon is supposed to be a sweeper. It's not. What it is is possibly the ultimate wallbreaker. While it usually isn't capable of destroying whole teams in one go, it has the ability to kill anything once it switches in.

Also, on the subject of Revenge Killing, keep in mind that Revenge Killers can't switch in to Hydreigon directly; they risk getting blown up by it's powerful attacks. They usually have to come in after Hydreigon has done it's job, so it's very difficult to prevent Hydreigon from killing something once it gets in.

 

[Sam]

Hydreigon doesn't want to sweep though. It is purely a wall breaker, which is can do with a variety of sets. It does it's role really well, and is one of the few pokemon that actually has no safe switch ins. A-rank for sure.

 

[Halcyon.]

Salamence is an amazing Cleaner with Scarf+Moxie and you can't compare Tailwind to something like Dragon Dance another serious problem is that Hydreigon either has to use an 80 BP STAB wich is way to weak against neutral targets to sweep or will cut its power in half meaning it will likely have to switch out. I don't know if you have actually played with Hydreigon but as i said its alot better on Paper than it plays out in an actual match against a good opponent as it requires serious prediction skills.

I mean, Latios has those exact problems except it's also weak to Pursuit trapping, so cutting it's Special Attack is even more detrimental, not to mention that Psyshock is worse that Dark Pulse because certain Pokemon are immune to it, and Hydreigon rarely uses Dark Pulse anyway, because there are so many better options like Earthquake, Roost, Substitute, Tailwind, Sunny Day, Thunder Wave, etc. What it comes down to is that Hydreigon is the best wall breaker in OU at the moment, which should allow it to be A rank on it's own.