Th JelliThorn core can reliably beat Tentacruel if it is paried with Landorus-I. Landy also handles the cores other problems, like Virizion and Breloom.
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OU The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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You know, with all this talk about Jellicent and how it's arguably the best spin blocker in the tier, I'm surprised that no one has suggested Jellicent be moved up to A-Rank. I think it's been suggested a few pages back, and I think there's good reason to do it. What does everyone else think?
As pokemon has evolved over time, entry hazads have become stupidly common in it. If you ask me building an OU team without entry hazards and rapid spin is a bad idea. So how do you counter all of this hazard craziness? You use a ghost type to protect your hazards. Gengar has been the best OU ghost since the beginning of pokemon and definitely deserves A rank for that achievement. Gengar is also extremely powerful and has flawless coverage. As its usage suggests, gengar belongs in the A rank. Jellicent is the best defensive stallbreaker available in OU, and is much more bulk than gengar. Jellicent does however have access to a water typing, recover, and good bulk. However I think Jellicent should move to A as well because it helps to wall top threats like keldeo, politoed, and many others. Building a stall team without jellicent is also pretty dumb, it is an absolute staple.
Well, Icecream, how common something is does kind of impact viability. In fact, it plays quite a large role. For example, Rain is very common nowadays, so most people often pack numerous rain checks, and things neutered by Rain have become less viable. Infernape is a prime example, since it has become less potent due to Rains omnipresence, and it's viability dropped as a result. Similar cases can be made for things like how Scizors high usage makes being pursuit weak a serious issue.
Very true; I didn't mean to imply that at all. Underused things can actually be great. But since it's not common, it's usually not something you need to prepare for. Going back to my Infernape example, nowadays it's used much less because of Rain. As a result, most people don't take it into account when building teams, or at least, they don't account for it as much as before. It COULD be a threat, but since it isn't used much, people don't need to account for it. The thing is, if something isn't common, then it doesn't affect the viability of other pokemon.
First off, reuniclus is only truly walled by a few pokemon (Metagross, Jirachi and bronzong). Jirachi, metagross that run EQ and bronzong can all be handled by air balloon heatran. The rest of the tier is smashed by its power and "speed" in Trick room. Gyarados can outspeed the entire unboosted metagame after a DD and while the SR weakness hurts, other A-Rankers like salamence and kyurem share this weakness. Gyarados's typng also allows it to be the best offensive special landorus and keldeo check, as well as a great check to breloom (after sleep clause has been activated).
That's pretty much a lot of the ideas going for Weavile in B-Rank. It is not the perfect Dragon-slayer like Mamoswine is but Pursuit trapping support AND the ability to handle Dragons is invaluable in the current meta and gives a lot of offensive utility. Weavile for B-Rank definitely.
I would like to raise a point about Mamoswine vs. Weavile as the "perfect Dragon slayer". Exhibit A: Lati@s. Yes, Mamoswine's Ice Shard hurts like a bitch, but it won't always KO, and if you don't have hazards down a Latios at 15% is still a Latios that can run train on your team. LO Ice Punch, however, always OHKOs, as does Pursuit on the switch. Mamoswine doesn't have Pursuit. Latias is typically slightly more bulky, but the same roughly applies.
Exhibit B: Kyurem(-B). Once again, both formes outspeed Mamoswine, but this time they are MUCH bulkier as well as neutral to Ice Shard, so Mamoswine's only real options are Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Superpower. Anyone who's faced down Kyurem's Draco and Kyurem-B's Outrage without a resist knows how unpleasant it can be. Weavile outspeeds and absolutely crushes them with Low Kick.
Against Dragons that are 4x weak to Ice, Mamoswine > Weavile. Against the rest, well, I'd say that they're damn near equal, if Weavile isn't outright better.
Exhibit B: Kyurem(-B). Once again, both formes outspeed Mamoswine, but this time they are MUCH bulkier as well as neutral to Ice Shard, so Mamoswine's only real options are Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Superpower. Anyone who's faced down Kyurem's Draco and Kyurem-B's Outrage without a resist knows how unpleasant it can be. Weavile outspeeds and absolutely crushes them with Low Kick.
Against Dragons that are 4x weak to Ice, Mamoswine > Weavile. Against the rest, well, I'd say that they're damn near equal, if Weavile isn't outright better.
Weavile is B Rank material but not A, it's frailty and Stealth Rock weakness really drop against it. Not to mention the abundance of Fighting types roaming in OU. Mach Punch is a quick and easy answer to it. Scizor also is King of OU usage, which Weavile can do nothing against it, but Low Kick on the switch. Yea it's Stabs are amazing, but still only niche amazing. Most Steels can easily shrug a non-stabbed Low Kick and KO.
Unlike mamoswine, weavile is bait for scizor, CS fighting types and conkeldurr. Weavile also has a SR weakness meaning that it cannot swith in and out. Its so frail, that it can only come in after something has died, or it will get OHKO'd. While I do agree its low B-Rank, it will cannot be A-Rank or top B-Rank because of low base power moves, common weakness and low defenses.
@tabuu
Do you know who else can? Scizor, scarfed magneton, and scarfTar. T-tar and scizor are already a-rank but magneton isnt even ranked. Thing is, scizor and Tyranitar arent SR weak and can fulfill other roles, too. Weavile, unlike the other offensive/revenge killer/trappers, is also too frail and couldnt handle a sneeze. Keep Weavile c-rank
Do you know who else can? Scizor, scarfed magneton, and scarfTar. T-tar and scizor are already a-rank but magneton isnt even ranked. Thing is, scizor and Tyranitar arent SR weak and can fulfill other roles, too. Weavile, unlike the other offensive/revenge killer/trappers, is also too frail and couldnt handle a sneeze. Keep Weavile c-rank
True in every word, though both of the other have better typing, abilities, utility, and just right diversity.
Scizor and mamoswine can check most of those pokemon, while having the ability to switch in to attacks. It doesn't deserve C-Rank at all, but rather low B-rank. Stuff like toxicroak, keldeo and scizor wall this guy all day, especially when his main STAB move is weaker than E-vire's T-punch. Also Breloom can take an ice shard and KO with mach punch.
B Rank said:
I think this fits Weavile quite perfectly. It does have very good uses, as already mentioned, in being able to destroy a large number of threats with the valuable Ice Shard as well as being able to support a varity of mons (Landorus, Keldeo, etc.) with its Pursuit. Weavile is arguably outclassed by a few Pokemon which are broken into two categories: the dragon-slayers and the trappers. Mamoswine supposedly is a lot better than Weavile due to its Ice-type attacking and Pursuit mons like Tyranitar and Scizor and supposedly better at Weavile at trapping Ghosts and Psychics. What Weavile does possess, however, that they don't, is the ability to do both of these roles at once. It can also run a variety of sets such as Choiced of LO'd as well as being able to use Expert Belt very well due to its moves to feign a Choice set. Easily B rank material.
Mamoswine is capable of checking literally all of them except for Gengar, Terrakion, Alakazam, and Jellicient. Another problem occurs when you realize that Gengar behind a Substitute beats it (considering they all run subs generally it is easy to get one up on the switch), Scarf Terrakion or a boosted one destroys Weavile and OHKOs it with literally every move it has, Jellicient can take a Night Slash and burn Weavile, and Sash Alakazam has an easy time with Weavile, assuming Focus Miss hits. It can't reliably stop any of those 4, really. Against random targets, Icicle Crash and Earthquake are stronger than what Weavile has for STABs.
I see Weavile as a more reliable way to trap Latias, Celebi (although Thunder Wave is irritating) Latios, and Starmie, and it is a good user of Pursuit. It's high speed also allows it to check healthier versions easier than Swine, but it otherwise is lacking a bit in power, is stopped by status, is weak to Stealth Rock, and is difficult (impossible) to switch in. Weavile is a niche Pokemon, and deserves to stay C.
EDIT: I also want to say that Pursuit isn't that excellent of a move anymore. Only 2 Ghosts and around 6 Psychic types seen in OU ars actually weak to Dark, and most of them can play around predicted Pursuits and dent or KO Weavile.
I've been using Focus Sash Alakazam lately, and I can see why PK moved Alakazam up to A-Rank. He puts so much offensive pressure on teams it's not even funny, out speeding half the tier and packing a lot of power is something that most people should fear. With a Focus Sash, it basically makes him one of the greatest revenge killers in the tier, and lets him take at least two free hits before going down. As long as Zam is still around, sweepers such as Scizor and Lucario will never be able to get that far, due to Zam's Focus Sash he can take a free priority move and deal back the pain with HP Fire or Focus Blast. It's so useful to be able to out speed dangerous things such as Starmie, Terrakion, and Latios, while not having to worry about going down in one hit. Seriously though, people need to use Alakazam more often. He's defnitely not fit for every team, but if you need a revenge killer with access to a Psychic type move and great coverage, then Alakazam is about as good as it gets.
As madcargo said, Scizor and Mamo can take care of most of these threats as it is. Weavile requires too much support for my liking to be in B-tier, although I guess I understand people's opinions on him moving up a tier. I simply disagree since it can't take a hit and needs rapid spin support or a Magic Bouncer to keep SR off the field so that it's sash isn't broken.
B Ranking Material
- Extremely useful niche stabs, hitting 15 of 30 in S/ A ranking.
- Outspeeds all base 108 that roam OU.
- Checks Landorus the most potent sweeper.
- Is outclassed by Mamoswine and usually set up bait for defensive pokemon that keep it in below A ranking..
B Ranking Material
- Extremely useful niche stabs, hitting 15 of 30 in S/ A ranking.
- Outspeeds all base 108 that roam OU.
- Checks Landorus the most potent sweeper.
- Is outclassed by Mamoswine and usually set up bait for defensive pokemon that keep it in below A ranking..
I agree with Issues, Weavile is B-rank material.
Mamoswine doesn't entirely outclass Weavile since other than dragons and Landorus they're used to check different things.
Mamoswine deals with grounded steel types like Heatran, while Weavile takes care of psychic and ghost types like Genagr and Starmie, something Mamoswine can't do.
Anyway I agree with Weavile being B-rank.
Mamoswine deals with grounded steel types like Heatran, while Weavile takes care of psychic and ghost types like Genagr and Starmie, something Mamoswine can't do.
Anyway I agree with Weavile being B-rank.
I am a little skeptical about Weavile for B rank, but i can easily see her being bottom B rank. Weavile is a very good Pokemon for every kind of offensive team, be it rain offense, sun offense, or weatherless offense (don't know about sand offense, have never used it there but LO + sand may prove to be too much for Weavile to handle). It differentiates itself from Mamoswine by being able to Pursuit trap certain annoying Pokemon, such as Celebi, Starmie, Gengar, and Lati@s, all prevalent threats that stop many Pokemon from sweeping. It can also outspeed and OHKO all of them, unlike Mamoswine, and more Pokemon that Mamoswine can't, such as Terrakion, Hydreigon (healthy Hydreigon avoids the KO from Ice Shard), Kyurem-B, and Alakazam. The combination of Ice Shard + Night Slash + Pursuit is very nice for an offensive Pokemon and lets it deal with an array of Pokemon that are problematic for offensive teams. This gives her a very important niche that justifies her placement on B rank imo. So i agree with Weavile for B rank.
Next, i would like to propose Gyarados for A rank. It has been a very underrated threat for a long of time and this has started changing the few past weeks due to the popularity of Sheer Force Landorus. Unlike what most people think, Gyarados doesn't need a lot of support. Just give it Politoed and you are fine. While it is true that it needs Rapid Spin support too, most rain teams use Starmie or Tentacruel anyway because they are very good Pokemon that are worth putting in most rain teams. So even if Gyarados forces rain teams to use Starmie or Tentacruel, i don't see the disadvantage of using two of the best Pokemon in OU.
Now let's talk about his offensive potential. Yesterday i took offensive Gyarados for a spin, with a set of DD / Waterfall / Ice Fang / Double Edge, max Atk / max HP with an Adamant nature, Intimidate and with Life Orb, and honestly i was shocked... This thing was amazing! It could either be used as a mid-game sweeper, getting a few OHKOes and softening the opponent's team, or as a late game sweeper if the opponent lacked Pokemon that could outspeed Gyarados and threaten it (for example every team that uses Scarf Jirachi). The great thing about it is that it gets so many set-up opportunities due to its great typing and bulk and it becomes so lethal after just one turn, while the only things that really trouble it are Ferrothorn, Jellicent, and Scarf users. For example, it can easily set-up on Scizor, Heatran, Choice Terrakion locked into anything but Stone Edge, HP Ice Landorus-T, Sheer Force Landorus, and Volcarona out of Pokemon in the top 20, and a bit more Pokemon depending on the circumstances. Also with Intimidate and Ice Fang, Gyarados can act as a last minute answer to Outraging Dragons, something every team appreciates.
As for the bulky DD set, it is another monster. Gets even more set-up opportunities due to Sub and the added bulk, is even harder to revenge kill due to Sub, but is easier to wall in comparison with the offensive set, but still stupidly hard to stop and if you lack Thunderbolt Rotom-W, Thunder bulky Starmie, or Ferrothorn then you can be sure that this thing will be a pain to your team.
So all in all, Gyarados is a very good set-up sweeper that finds plenty set-up chances, is very difficult to stop after just one boost, has very few counters, and doesn't need a lot of support to function (basically only Politoed, as 90% of rain teams have a spinner anyway).
Next, i would like to propose Gyarados for A rank. It has been a very underrated threat for a long of time and this has started changing the few past weeks due to the popularity of Sheer Force Landorus. Unlike what most people think, Gyarados doesn't need a lot of support. Just give it Politoed and you are fine. While it is true that it needs Rapid Spin support too, most rain teams use Starmie or Tentacruel anyway because they are very good Pokemon that are worth putting in most rain teams. So even if Gyarados forces rain teams to use Starmie or Tentacruel, i don't see the disadvantage of using two of the best Pokemon in OU.
Now let's talk about his offensive potential. Yesterday i took offensive Gyarados for a spin, with a set of DD / Waterfall / Ice Fang / Double Edge, max Atk / max HP with an Adamant nature, Intimidate and with Life Orb, and honestly i was shocked... This thing was amazing! It could either be used as a mid-game sweeper, getting a few OHKOes and softening the opponent's team, or as a late game sweeper if the opponent lacked Pokemon that could outspeed Gyarados and threaten it (for example every team that uses Scarf Jirachi). The great thing about it is that it gets so many set-up opportunities due to its great typing and bulk and it becomes so lethal after just one turn, while the only things that really trouble it are Ferrothorn, Jellicent, and Scarf users. For example, it can easily set-up on Scizor, Heatran, Choice Terrakion locked into anything but Stone Edge, HP Ice Landorus-T, Sheer Force Landorus, and Volcarona out of Pokemon in the top 20, and a bit more Pokemon depending on the circumstances. Also with Intimidate and Ice Fang, Gyarados can act as a last minute answer to Outraging Dragons, something every team appreciates.
As for the bulky DD set, it is another monster. Gets even more set-up opportunities due to Sub and the added bulk, is even harder to revenge kill due to Sub, but is easier to wall in comparison with the offensive set, but still stupidly hard to stop and if you lack Thunderbolt Rotom-W, Thunder bulky Starmie, or Ferrothorn then you can be sure that this thing will be a pain to your team.
So all in all, Gyarados is a very good set-up sweeper that finds plenty set-up chances, is very difficult to stop after just one boost, has very few counters, and doesn't need a lot of support to function (basically only Politoed, as 90% of rain teams have a spinner anyway).
Yeah Double-Edge is really underrated on Gyarados, a +1 Life Orb Double-Edge ruins Rotom-W. The Recoil is a massive pain, but Gyarados is usually good at blowing holes in the foes team.
I'd like to propose Feraligatr for C-rank or low B-rank. Feraligatr has a niche in OU. It's a monster under rain and a great sweeper with rain boosted Aqua Jet. It's pretty hard to stop at +2. Landorus, Thundurus-T, Tornadus, Gengar, Jolteon, Terrakion and many faster threats all fall to Aqua Jet. To show just how powerful Feraligatr is it does 82.78% - 97.68% to Latios with a +2 Drizzle and Torrent boosted Aqua Jet so it has a pretty good chance of being OHKO'd after Stealth Rock. It has just the right bulk as well so it often goes into Torrent mode. Feraligatr also laughs at physical walls like Skarmory, Landorus-T, Hippowdon and Gliscor. That's something that can't be ignored. Thoughts?
Yeah just a combination of arguments for Feraligatr. Any thoughts on it?
Without Sheer Force I still see basically no reason to use Feraligatr over one of Gyarados / Dragonite / Salamence / Garchomp
I mean Aqua Jet is cool, but Feraligatr has no consistent way to get down to Torrent-- and it has major 4 slot syndrom. It needs both Aqua Jet and Waterfall to be worth a mention, but then throw in SD and you only get 1 boosting move. ><
I mean Aqua Jet is cool, but Feraligatr has no consistent way to get down to Torrent-- and it has major 4 slot syndrom. It needs both Aqua Jet and Waterfall to be worth a mention, but then throw in SD and you only get 1 boosting move. ><
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