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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
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That's the main reason I tagged PK. I think the higher rank discussions are much more important than decided if something is kind of bad or really bad.
The C rank would benefit from a two way split between C+ and C- rank, as there isn't really any need to add a neutral C rank on such a low tier. In fact, I feel that some of the worst C and D rank pokemon can be removed. C+ pokemon could be on the fence and close to B ranked pokemon (in other words, actually viable), potentially on the same level as many A ranked pokemon "given the right support." C- ranked pokemon would be on the border between C and D, as Pokemon with more than one miniscule niche capable of being moderately useful without unbelievable support unlike D ranked pokemon, but still two full tiers beneath C+ ranked pokemon.
So C+ pokemon can be used with some regularity, while C- Pokemon generally shouldn't be used unless they fill some specific role on your team other pokemon cannot. D ranked pokemon should only be used by players who have put a lot of thought into what they need out of a pokemon for extremely specific niches that no other pokemon can fill, though these niches must be tangentially useful in some manner so as to not be completely outclassed.
For example, Moltres with Spin/SR support is incredibly deadly on a Rain team due to its ability to tear apart teams with Modest LO Hurricane and heavily damage Jirachi and Ferrothorn with Fire Blast unlike Tornadus (which must use Focus Blast to less effect), which it outperforms with an Agility Boost and ability to run a Modest Nature while also dismantling Sun teams with Sun Boosted Modest LO Fire Blast. However, Moltres is easily outsped and KOed without the Agility boost, and loses half its health each time it comes in if SR is not spun from the field. For this reason, it might be a solid C+ rank (potentially B-) pokemon.
On the defensive end, Cresselia tanks literally every single hit in the metagame (CBtar is one of the few decent pokemon capable of 2HKOing cress) but lacks reliable recovery with Moonlight. Cresselia gains a resistance to water (and immunity to Rain Boosted Hydro Pumps which are ever common in the tier from Sun) and a move capable of recovering 67% of its titanic HP stat. Cresselia would be one of the best defensive C+ (also potentially B- lol) pokemon in its tier.
So C+ pokemon can be used with some regularity, while C- Pokemon generally shouldn't be used unless they fill some specific role on your team other pokemon cannot. D ranked pokemon should only be used by players who have put a lot of thought into what they need out of a pokemon for extremely specific niches that no other pokemon can fill, though these niches must be tangentially useful in some manner so as to not be completely outclassed.
For example, Moltres with Spin/SR support is incredibly deadly on a Rain team due to its ability to tear apart teams with Modest LO Hurricane and heavily damage Jirachi and Ferrothorn with Fire Blast unlike Tornadus (which must use Focus Blast to less effect), which it outperforms with an Agility Boost and ability to run a Modest Nature while also dismantling Sun teams with Sun Boosted Modest LO Fire Blast. However, Moltres is easily outsped and KOed without the Agility boost, and loses half its health each time it comes in if SR is not spun from the field. For this reason, it might be a solid C+ rank (potentially B-) pokemon.
On the defensive end, Cresselia tanks literally every single hit in the metagame (CBtar is one of the few decent pokemon capable of 2HKOing cress) but lacks reliable recovery with Moonlight. Cresselia gains a resistance to water (and immunity to Rain Boosted Hydro Pumps which are ever common in the tier from Sun) and a move capable of recovering 67% of its titanic HP stat. Cresselia would be one of the best defensive C+ (also potentially B- lol) pokemon in its tier.
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I agree that C Rank should be split to sub-categories, as it's very populated right now. And here are comments about some C and D Rank Pokemon:
Rotom-H (C ---> D)
Rotom-H used to be a C Rank Pokemon in the Genesect metagame, where he could check a ton of threatening Pokemon that no other Pokemon could, namely Genesect, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, special Landorus, and most sun sweepers (Venusaur and Volcarona), meaning that he was actually usable in almost any kind of team. Now, most of those Pokemon are gone, so the SpD set has lost most if not all of its value, and the only set worth using is Specs, which is still a highly specialized and situational Pokemon for sun teams that have troubles checking Thundurus-T and opposing sun sweepers. D Rank is the place for it.
Nidoqueen (C ---> D)
Nidoqueen is the epitome of niche in OU. As an offensive SR setter and pivot, it faces fierce competition from Garchomp and Landorus-T, and the only thing it has over those two is the ability to fend off some physical walls that the others can't (Skarmory, Landorus-T, Hippowdon), at least not that easily, and absorb Toxic Spikes. This means that in the offensive role Nidoqueen is almost 100% outclassed and shouldn't even be at D Rank. However, it's the defensive set that gives it enough merit to be at D Rank, as it's one of the best counters to Terrakion a stall team can find, has the rare Toxic Spikes (Tentacruel does not fit well on a non rain team, and Forretress is the easiest Pokemon to take advantage in the whole metagame), and can absorb Toxic Spikes too, while providing good offensive presence for a wall, and phazing. So Nidoqueen has its use, but this use is extremely limited and therefore Queen should be moved to D Rank.
Victreebel (C ---> D or even off the list)
Badly outclassed Pokemon. Not just outclassed (in which case it would be ok in C), but almost completely outclassed. Venusaur has better Speed and better bulk, making its Growth set completely superior. I haven't used the mixed set, but it seems to be the only Victreebel set worth using, as it has Power Whip over Venusaur, allowing it to deal with most weather starters much easier.
Rotom-H (C ---> D)
Rotom-H used to be a C Rank Pokemon in the Genesect metagame, where he could check a ton of threatening Pokemon that no other Pokemon could, namely Genesect, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, special Landorus, and most sun sweepers (Venusaur and Volcarona), meaning that he was actually usable in almost any kind of team. Now, most of those Pokemon are gone, so the SpD set has lost most if not all of its value, and the only set worth using is Specs, which is still a highly specialized and situational Pokemon for sun teams that have troubles checking Thundurus-T and opposing sun sweepers. D Rank is the place for it.
Nidoqueen (C ---> D)
Nidoqueen is the epitome of niche in OU. As an offensive SR setter and pivot, it faces fierce competition from Garchomp and Landorus-T, and the only thing it has over those two is the ability to fend off some physical walls that the others can't (Skarmory, Landorus-T, Hippowdon), at least not that easily, and absorb Toxic Spikes. This means that in the offensive role Nidoqueen is almost 100% outclassed and shouldn't even be at D Rank. However, it's the defensive set that gives it enough merit to be at D Rank, as it's one of the best counters to Terrakion a stall team can find, has the rare Toxic Spikes (Tentacruel does not fit well on a non rain team, and Forretress is the easiest Pokemon to take advantage in the whole metagame), and can absorb Toxic Spikes too, while providing good offensive presence for a wall, and phazing. So Nidoqueen has its use, but this use is extremely limited and therefore Queen should be moved to D Rank.
Victreebel (C ---> D or even off the list)
Badly outclassed Pokemon. Not just outclassed (in which case it would be ok in C), but almost completely outclassed. Venusaur has better Speed and better bulk, making its Growth set completely superior. I haven't used the mixed set, but it seems to be the only Victreebel set worth using, as it has Power Whip over Venusaur, allowing it to deal with most weather starters much easier.
I'm with alexwolf on dropping Victreebel off the list. Base 70 speed is too slow, even when +Speed it's outsped by Scarfed 108s and so frail that revenging it isn't an issue. Weather Ball and Power Whip are super badass and even its poor bulk could be worked around if it were faster, but it's not.
Victreebel is a solid Ubers pokemon and you are completely underestimating its niche as a chlorophyll sweeper.
edit: this is a joke
edit: this is a joke
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Eh Victreebel was at like 270 in the usage stats for Ubers last month. Just saying.
On another note, this sounds odd but I would consider moving Froslass up to B- at least. It's pretty much THE BEST hazard lead right now.
Froslass @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SAtk/252 Spe/4 HP
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Destiny Bond/Shadow Ball
In my experience, here are the pros and cons-
1) Packing almost the fastest Taunt in the meta, this thing shuts down lead Rakion/Chomp and CustapSkarm quite well.
2) Most leads right now are Spikes fodder for Lass.
3) Cursed Body is incredibly handy.
4) It has Destiny Bond as well, so it's not that you'll start the match 6-5 + hazards.
5) For attacking options, Ice beam is decent all-round, as most leads it doesn't hit (Toed/Tales) can't prevent Lass from setting up 2 layers of spikes. Shadow Ball is also considerable for Starmie(?)
6) Last but certainly not the least, this thing spinblocks it's own spikes.
But
7) Has trouble against Ttar as a lead (Scizor as well, if the opponent sends it out).
8) Doesn't lay down SR
Both problems can be solved by pairing it with any good offensive SR user (Rakion, Chomp, Tran, Lando-T).
Also,
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks
I already mentioned how this thing is far from outclassed as a hazard lead, a role which doesn't require much support anyways.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
Froslass can properly fulfill the niche of a Spikes user. Not sure how something can be setup bait with such a fast Taunt and STAB Ice Beam/Shadow Ball. Receives competition from Rakion/Chomp as a hazard lead, that's about it. In other words, this seems like a much better description for it.
Thoughts?
I personally don't like how the thread has shaped up in terms of rank inflation-- I liked that at the start of the thread, B ranked Pokemon were good, staples of the metagame. Now, I guess B+/B fills that role with B- being niche pokes that can potentially be good. Still think B+ is too high for sawsbuck-- maybe B.
As for Froslass, I think it does fit in with the other B- Pokes as they are now (though I think all the B- ranked pokes are too highly ranked! lol)
Most of the C ranked pokes are pretty damn crappy-- I'd rather have C be represented by the current B- in addition to Donphan and Froslass.
As for the way the ranking is actually structured now, I think Froslass does belong in the current B-.
As for Froslass, I think it does fit in with the other B- Pokes as they are now (though I think all the B- ranked pokes are too highly ranked! lol)
Most of the C ranked pokes are pretty damn crappy-- I'd rather have C be represented by the current B- in addition to Donphan and Froslass.
As for the way the ranking is actually structured now, I think Froslass does belong in the current B-.
Sableye is in the same tier both in UU and OU , is this a joke ? i mean this thing can only switch on rapid spin and its WoW recover combo is as reliable as the WoW Acc 75 % lol , i haven't seen a sableye above 1100 ever since i started playing competitive.
dwarfstar
mindless philosopher
Victreebel has a niche in Ubers that it lacks in OU because things are generally slower there. Most of the Scarfers you'll see in Ubers sit below that base 108 mark, so they can't just outspeed Victreebel and shred it. It still can't take any attacks that it doesn't resist, but at least it's very hard to revenge-kill without priority. Down here, Scarfers are generally faster than what you see in Ubers, so Victreebel will get MAYBE one kill per game against a decent team.
Prankster Will-O-Wisp cripples over half the metagame, although that doesn't change the fact that it's mostly outclassed by Jellicent. Being able to move first is one of the most important things in a speed based metagame.
I guess I should address this once and for all. Do I intend to move Jirachi up?
Short Answer: no
Long Answer: I have no reason to. Despite what you believe, this thread is not some stage for enlightened theoretical debate wherein all logical arguments will play themselves out to their fullest extent and the greatest ideas shall take root in the end. It's pretty much just one guy responding to community feedback and implementing it on my own discretion (with a little help on the side). Just because Jirachi is constantly being discussed does not mean that I am obligated to move Jirachi to S-tier, nor should I have to directly come out and say "Give it a rest, Jirachi is not moving to S-tier ever."
If you didn't know already, my time to devote to the game is finite, especially with school (My last update was pretty much between classes). You shouldn't expect me (or anyone else for that matter) to wade through an absolutely endless sea of posts (most of them are terrible) and address each and everyone one of them. And to reiterate, it's not because I don't want to hear your constructive opinion, it's because your opinion is quite frankly not convincing enough or you've made post that doesn't need a response.
I still haven't seen anything that has convinced me to change my stance on Jirachi. Maybe if users start posting substantial arguments backed by experience and tournament data, but for now I have no intentions of moving Jirachi (or any Pokemon in it's tier) to S-rank. We're talking about moving a Pokemon to S-tier here, it's not a decision that should be made lightly.
Definitely going to do something about my last update, since it was pretty bad. I'm going to go ahead and restructure C & D-rank, I just need to plan it out (which might take a few days)
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I was just kidding about Victreebel =P it definitely isn't great in OU.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
holy crap, can we please stop with thye "I haven't seen a good user of X"? the chances are that that's a terrible argument because you're either not high enough in ranking to be facing actual GOOD ladder players (which fyi basically starts at 1950s in OU) or the good players that YOU know simply don't WANT to experiment. Can we please stop acting like usage plays apart in this, I barely see anybody using latias over latios even in 1850 besides myself, does that mean latias is bad at all in OU? hell no, the ladder is too damn unreliable, and tournaments are COMPETETIVE, people aren't going to risk losing to try out a untested pokemon, that's what they do on the LADDER, most people infact will start low ass ranked ladder alts to test these pokemon because, HEY, they don't want to risk their rank.
Overall, just because you don't see it being used well, doesn't mean it's bad, at all.
Anyway back to what this damn thread is for: Discussing how VIABLE a pokemon is
Overall, just because you don't see it being used well, doesn't mean it's bad, at all.
Anyway back to what this damn thread is for: Discussing how VIABLE a pokemon is
Jirachi definitely deserves S, it fits the criteria perfectly.
- it can sweep a lot of the metagame with little effort if running cm
- it can wall a ton of the metagame with little effort if running spdef
- it can support its entire other team with little effort if running scarf (checks a shitload of threats, keeps momentum with uturn, can heal a nearly dead teammate with healing wish) or ebelt (can set up sr, lure in and weaken counters/checks)
- the only other pkmn who can perform a multitude of roles as well as jirachi is arceus
- it can sweep a lot of the metagame with little effort if running cm
- it can wall a ton of the metagame with little effort if running spdef
- it can support its entire other team with little effort if running scarf (checks a shitload of threats, keeps momentum with uturn, can heal a nearly dead teammate with healing wish) or ebelt (can set up sr, lure in and weaken counters/checks)
- the only other pkmn who can perform a multitude of roles as well as jirachi is arceus
Well, from what I've seen we as a community have ranked Jirachi as S-Rank. Stemming from the latest discussion, a large majority of people ranked it that way.
Maybe I misunderstood the original post, but if I did perhaps you should addend it to specify that you make the decisions, not the community.
I'll add that mentors, tiering contributers, and the world cup defending champion have ranked it as S-rank, so there's that experience you were talking about.
Um, that's like the exact opposite of the truth. Tournaments are the best place to use underrated Pokémon/movesets because you want your opponent to know as little about your team (and by extension, what you're going to do with it) as possible. Tournaments are what gave rise to now standard threats such as AcroZor, Will-O-Wisp Gengar, and EBelt Keldeo. No usage isn't the be all and end all of tiering in this thread, but it absolutely does play a hand in it, and tournament usage even more so.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
So you are saying CM Jirachi is as dangerous as Keldeo, Terrakion (late BW) or Landorus-I? Because if you want to move up Jirachi based on its offensive capabilities it should be on par with the current/previous S-Rank pokemon that got their due to their offensive capabilities.
It is good at walling Dragons/tanking almost every hit in general, but there is so much stuff that can switch into SDef Jirachi and take adavantage of it that saying it is S-Rank because of its SDef set is a ridicolous claim. There hasn't been a defensive Pokemon in S-Rank (propably for a reason) and if there should ever be one i don't think it should be Jirachi.
Still i doubt that its support is equal to Politoeds rain and Tyranitars pursuit/sand support. The E-Belt/Shuca SR set is nice and one of the best SR setters right now and Scarf Jirachi is one of the best revenge killers (although it is extremly easy to take advantage of), but none of these sets come close to Politoeds/Tyranitars usefulness in terms of support.
While comparing it to Arceus is kind of a stretch you are right that Jirachi is propably the most versatile threat in OU and most of its sets are really good. I would say that Jirachi isn't just a Jack of all trades, but a King however it still is the Master of none and to qualify for S-Rank you should be a Master in your role. Maybe Jirachi is the master of versatility, but i think a Pokemon should excel at one role to be S-Rank not just stand out in some.
Jirachi is probably best Wisher in OU, because Chansey is too limited for stall teams and only in Sun/ Rain, like said BKC Jirachi isnt the best and most dangerous sweeper at one thing, the a lot of sets, versatility and utility makes Jirachi so good and Rank-S and lacks to a solid first counter w/o know the exact set.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
tbh after you know jirachis set, it really becomes a complete joke if you're actually running a semi serious team
You can't be serious... Most of jirachi's sets are extremely dangerous even if you know them... The cm and scarf sets do a ton of damage even if you know them. Spdef still walls your latios and can paralyze your offensive switch ins, even if you know it's spdef. Granted the lure set loses a lot of its effectiveness after you know it's a lure, but if you know it, it's because it got the job done, no?
Of course jirachi isn't kyogre but use common sense please lol...
Of course jirachi isn't kyogre but use common sense please lol...
Jirachi is like the Jack of all trades master of none. For being S-Rank worthy I feel it should be a master in at least one. And I also don't think that Jirachi properly fullfills the "opportunity cost" criteria. It belongs perfectly at A+, just one shy of S-Rank. I certainly find it way easier to play around than keldeo, but that's me and PO/PS ladders, dont know about you enlightened 'tourney souls'
But thats the thing. Tbh I'd say its one of the best scarfers, SpDef wall, and CM sweeper in the tier. I can honestly say Scarf Jirachi is easily one of the best Scarfers for offensive teams, as it often acts like the glue for teams while also supporting the team loads with its awesome speed tier and incredible move pool (mainly Healing Wish). As a Spdef Wall its really in a league of its own. Its the only Pokemon in the tier that doesnt give a crap about Latios, Gengar, Alakazam, and Latias. I honestly cant think of any Pokemon that can claim to counter all of these Pokemon with such ease. And finally, its CM set is again one of the best CM sweepers in the tier, thanks to its ability to set up in common walls, and avoid status / heal itself easily. The only other CM sweeper I can think of that comes close to this is Reuniclus, but Jirachi has much better typing, and Reuniclus is much more predictable.
Jirachi is S rank. No doubt.
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