Project The PU Viability Ranking Thread

[Froggyboy]

Fair enough, I just listed Rotom-Frost because it resists everything Glalie can do. Yes, it has an incredibly powerful explosion, but I think it's a waste of potential because you're using the mega as a suicide spiker when regular Glalie can do the same, but with a weaker explosion, and a bit less speed. Regular can hold a sash too, which is pretty nice considering Glalie's defensive stats and typing. I mean, there's not a lot of competition for a mega slot, but a mega is usually the pokemon you build your team around. Using it as a suicide spiker is the exact opposite; not that such sets can't be effective.

80/100/100 isn't exactly bad defensive stats, its just its typing that sucks for it. And I agree that normal Glalie is most likely a better suicide spiker, its just on paper that it seems M-Glalie is a fantastic Pokemon to set up Spikes with, then explode. I'll leave this argument alone for now.

HP Electric is generally better because it hits all Water/Flying's except SpD Mantine (which is shit) harder than Rock Slide. So unless you want to hit other birds (Fire Blast probably hits them harder anyway), HP Electric is superior. Mantine does not counter HP Electric Camerupt at all by the way, it's a clean 2HKO.

252+ SpA Camerupt Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 180-212 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Lunatone is a counter to non Flash Cannon Camerupt. Rock Slide may be a 2HKO, but so is Fire Blast. And it gets Moonlight, so it can stall it out with Toxic. I also never said that SpD Togetic is a counter, just that it can potentially stall it out. Yes, it hits insanely hard, and I can assure you that I don't underestimate its power at all, but its speed and 4x Water-type weakness really hold it back.

I meant if M-Camerupt did not have either HP-Electric or Rock Slide.
The fact that an irrelevant Pokemon like Lunatone needs to be brought up only to counter 1 set of Camerupt's is probably saying a ton about M-Camerupt's power. Sure, its speed is holding it back a lot, and while a lot of Water types hurt it, they can't really switch in and the ones that can, a.k.a. the bulky ones, can't even OHKO with a stab water attack.
0 SpA Poliwrath Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 252-300 (73.2 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mantine Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 276-328 (80.2 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 SpA Prinplup Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 280-336 (81.3 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Wartortle Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 232-280 (67.4 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < lol

 

[Grim]

80/100/100 isn't exactly bad defensive stats, its just its typing that sucks for it. And I agree that normal Glalie is most likely a better suicide spiker, its just on paper that it seems M-Glalie is a fantastic Pokemon to set up Spikes with, then explode. I'll leave this argument alone for now.

It actually has 80/80/80 defensive stats.

I meant if M-Camerupt did not have either HP-Electric or Rock Slide.
The fact that an irrelevant Pokemon like Lunatone needs to be brought up only to counter 1 set of Camerupt's is probably saying a ton about M-Camerupt's power. Sure, its speed is holding it back a lot, and while a lot of Water types hurt it, they can't really switch in and the ones that can, a.k.a. the bulky ones, can't even OHKO with a stab water attack.
0 SpA Poliwrath Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 252-300 (73.2 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mantine Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 276-328 (80.2 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 SpA Prinplup Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 280-336 (81.3 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Wartortle Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 232-280 (67.4 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < lol

All Camerupts have Rock Slide or HP Electric tbh, but whatever. Camerupt really only has one set. Flash Cannon is just one filler move you could use in the fourth moveslot, and far from common because it only hits Lunatone. They can not OHKO without prior damage, but Stealth Rocks or one layer of spikes should honestly be included in these calcs, considering how easy it is to set up hazards in PU.

Camerupt is extremely powerful, but its speed and typing, as well as a lack of versatility keep it from S.

 

[Teddeh]

80/100/100 isn't exactly bad defensive stats, its just its typing that sucks for it. And I agree that normal Glalie is most likely a better suicide spiker, its just on paper that it seems M-Glalie is a fantastic Pokemon to set up Spikes with, then explode. I'll leave this argument alone for now.

This is what drives me crazy when everyone makes an argument. I've not seen one suicide spiker because it's wasted potential. If it isn't being used in the current meta right now, why bring it up in an argument if it's amazing "on paper"... smh
And as far as the scald damage goes, you don't want to lose your camel to a high roll after stealth rocks or be put down as low as 5%, as your only way of dishing out hits is by either forcing their pokemon out or taking a hit and then damaging them. If you're consistently being forced out because you need camel to be at a high enough number of health to kill a certain pokemon or to force a switch, it is not very easy to use like musharna or tauros. It has unbelievable power, i'm starting to think it could have S rank potential from the power alone but just from using it and playing against it, it lacks the speed to get the 2 hit kos on defensive walls. Therefore it should keep its A+ rank, meaing it's very good, but not quite up with the big boys.

 

[Magnemite]

Okay no one has posted in favor of Sneasel dropping yet so I'll bite

While Sneasel has always been a great Pokemon in PU, the current metagame is a bit unkind to it. While it only has two main counters in Poliwrath and Throh, one of these is on most good teams right now, which is an especially big deal in the case of the former as it's likely the most common Pokemon in the tier and almost turns Sneasel into a liability with how good of a counter it is. The popularity of Garbodor doesn't really help it either as it is a decent check to Sneasel and its hazards make it harder for Sneasel to stay healthy. This leads to the other reason Sneasel should drop: the fact it gets worn down very easily. Hazard stacking teams are extremely common, so between losing 25+% of its health every time it switches in, Life Orb recoil, and poison damage, Sneasel can usually only come in once or twice per game against many teams, so it has few opportunities to do damage. This isn't to say Sneasel isn't still a very good Pokemon; it just isn't the metagame defining threat it used to be and fits much more nicely in A+ rank than S.

 

[ManOfMany]

Okay no one has posted in favor of Sneasel dropping yet so I'll bite

While Sneasel has always been a great Pokemon in PU, the current metagame is a bit unkind to it. While it only has two main counters in Poliwrath and Throh, one of these is on most good teams right now, which is an especially big deal in the case of the former as it's likely the most common Pokemon in the tier and almost turns Sneasel into a liability with how good of a counter it is. The popularity of Garbodor doesn't really help it either as it is a decent check to Sneasel and its hazards make it harder for Sneasel to stay healthy. This leads to the other reason Sneasel should drop: the fact it gets worn down very easily. Hazard stacking teams are extremely common, so between losing 25+% of its health every time it switches in, Life Orb recoil, and poison damage, Sneasel can usually only come in once or twice per game against many teams, so it has few opportunities to do damage. This isn't to say Sneasel isn't still a very good Pokemon; it just isn't the metagame defining threat it used to be and fits much more nicely in A+ rank than S.

You should add physically defensive Relicanth to this list.
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 99-118 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 57-68 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

Meanwhile:
0 Atk Relicanth Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Sneasel: 318-374 (126.6 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Teddeh]

Okay no one has posted in favor of Sneasel dropping yet so I'll bite

While Sneasel has always been a great Pokemon in PU, the current metagame is a bit unkind to it. While it only has two main counters in Poliwrath and Throh, one of these is on most good teams right now, which is an especially big deal in the case of the former as it's likely the most common Pokemon in the tier and almost turns Sneasel into a liability with how good of a counter it is. The popularity of Garbodor doesn't really help it either as it is a decent check to Sneasel and its hazards make it harder for Sneasel to stay healthy. This leads to the other reason Sneasel should drop: the fact it gets worn down very easily. Hazard stacking teams are extremely common, so between losing 25+% of its health every time it switches in, Life Orb recoil, and poison damage, Sneasel can usually only come in once or twice per game against many teams, so it has few opportunities to do damage. This isn't to say Sneasel isn't still a very good Pokemon; it just isn't the metagame defining threat it used to be and fits much more nicely in A+ rank than S.

Well although i've not played too much pu, it's still a very big threat as it outspeeds basically the whole meta making it hard to stop despite having checks and counters. I admit they're basically on every team, however sneasel has ways around them and with hazard stack being a thing, it's not hard to incorporate defog onto any team I've found. I admit toxic spikes are a pain since there are literally no decent poison types in the tier apart from garbodor however sneasel is still a force in the team builder. Although since the start of the tier, i've always wondered whether sneasel fit the description of an S ranked pokemon since it doesn't have much variety in sets and wasn't overly powerful... I wouldn't be against it dropping to A+, i think it never fit the description in the first place in all honesty.

 

[Magnemite]

You should add physically defensive Relicanth to this list.
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 99-118 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 57-68 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

Meanwhile:
0 Atk Relicanth Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Sneasel: 318-374 (126.6 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO

physically defensive relicanth is pretty irrelevant (though cb relicanth is an okay check), but one thing i forgot to expand upon was that sneasel is very easily forced out by anything that can take a hit and ko it in return, which is a lot of pokemon as sneasel isn't the most powerful thing in the world. this means that even if its checks and counters are gone, sneasel can still have a bit of trouble cleaning up a lot of teams, especially when its issues with being worn down and switching in safely are taken into account.

 

[trc]

I'd rather put it in A tbh.

 

[Magnemite]

I'd rather put it in A tbh.

Nice reasoning (I kind of agree, but lol)

 

[Froggyboy]

I probably ain't the smartest man around here, but I might as well put my two cents on this.

Sneasel is one of the best Pokemon in the tier, that most can admit. However, it struggles a lot more as this meta evolved, Poliwrath was exploded in usage, both new megas are good checks to it, and it gets worn down very quickly, with both switching out on hazards and LO(assuming non Eviolite-SD). And even with Eviolite, its defenses aren't anything to be 'Wow!' about, and a strong STAB move with SR or Spikes up is all the opposing Pokemon needs to secure an OHKO.
And while it can use Icicle Crash, Low Kick, and Knock Off, 10 more power isn't changing any 2HKOs into OHKOs, or turning counters into checks. And with the best Spiker in the meta sure to leave us, Sneasel will be missing the fantastic spike stacking support.

Really, the meta has adapted for Sneasel, and it isn't really meta-defining as other Pokemon in S-Rank. But I feel A is a bit harsh, A+ I feel fits it perfectly.

 

[WildHope]

Something than most people forget is than Sneasel is one of the few (and the best if you question me) Pursuit users in the tier, and the SD set is very effective thanks to how easy is to spam Knock Off is and the new icecle crash. But im fine with it at A+ for now, but i think than after the suspect test him is going to back to S.

I get some more experience with Leafeon/Glailie/Came this days. Leafeon is the face of our new overlord, the sunshine, not much to say, is fine at A+ because the support needed and some problems with miss tail and the bad match up with the megas.
I dont like PU MGlailie, every team carry Pilo or Ava anyway, and is weak to hazard in a tier full of hazards with bad removers. 80 speed for the base form sucks, his only way to mega evolve against HO teams is Ice Shard. I cannot see it being A+. Is a good wall breaker, but isnt meta defined or unpossible to wall like Ninetales.
I was using Camerutp a lot because i cannot find many in the ladder, and is disapointing, have lots of bad match up, and you cannot know what to wall when erevything is carring a random HP Water for you, you need to find a Avalugg to switch into most of the time or wait until you can revenge kill something, and if you cannot predict the switch youre pretty much killed, Came is one time use against good people. I say A rank for the two megas, not bad mons, but not that good either.

 

[Magnemite]

TRC finish updating the thread you nub @_@

agreeing with mr. mime to A, scarf is a good set because it's one of the only scarfers in the tier that isn't weak to fighting and because it has great coverage in its stabs alone and healing wish is a great move.

time to make some of my own noms:

Rampardos from B to B-
i could have sworn we were making this change in the last update, but we must have forgot or something. while it is powerful, it's also not that fast, hard to switch in, terrible against offense, and overshadowed by most other sr setters in the tier. it's not awful, but it isn't really on the level of stuff like fraxure and swanna.

Jumpluff from C to C+/B-
I've used it a decent amount lately, and Jumpluff is actually not a bad offensive pokemon for only having base 55 attack and being unable to use an item. it works decently similar to fletchinder in RU, but it actually has bulk and doesn't require hazard removal. while it is rather weak, it has good stab coverage and can easily clean up against weakened offensive teams, as well as having the fastest sleep move in PU and super effective stabs against the grass types that would otherwise be able to absorb it. however, being weak to ice shard and only tying with raichu and tauros instead of beating them is kinda lame, as well as the fact that its just so weak if it can't set up, but it at least has enough power and coverage to clean against weakened teams. while it isn't the greatest thing ever, jumpluff is actually a pretty decent pokemon. B- is a bit of a stretch, but it's easily C+ material and could be B- worthy after further testing. also i have replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-193022775
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-192852989
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-192842587

Kecleon from A to A+
i'm not really sure on this one, but i could definitely see it. kecleon is everywhere in this metagame, and for good reason. dual stab priority is amazing for offensive teams, and stab knock off means that nothing really wants to switch into it. even its best switchins like garbodor and throh take a lot of damage from the right move. like i said, i'm not too sure of this, but some other opinions on this would be nice.

Pikachu from D to unranked
the only reason we didn't unrank this before is because of the cosplays, but a) if the cosplays are to be ranked, they should be at least tested first, and there's nothing wrong with having them unranked unless they are found to be viable in testing, and b) they are counted as separate forms, so if any of them are ranked it should be specified which one is viable.

Leavanny from C to C+

it gets knock off + webs now and is still faster than tune, so it fits well in C+ now

 

[Mistress Remilia]

Eh, i kinda feel unsure about the drop of Rampardos, as things like Swanna or even Fraxure should go to B+ imo, but i'll argue on that later.
Sure, Rampardos is slow, and he's not very bulky, and he has pretty bad chances of doing anything against offense, but still on the other side, it's an insane truck that can pull some incredible pressure to the opposing team, and if played right, it can be a massive threat to the opposing team.

 

[cacturne]

I would like to nominate Fearow to drop to either C- or D rank. I tried it out on various different offensive teams, and every time I used it I found myself just wishing I was using Dodrio. Its lack of brave bird makes it have to rely on the weak drill peck for its main STAB since Return, its other STAB move, is horrible to be locked in to. Some might say that its access to U-Turn and Drill Run are enough to warrant it a spot over Dodrio, but that is simply not true. Drill Run is a horrible move to be locked into and is often far to weak to kill or even 2HKO what it needs to due to bad base power and lack of STAB. On the topic of U-Turn though it is nice having the raw power of Dodrio is much better in most scenarios (if we are really splitting hairs dodrio gets baton pass as a pseudo U-Turn, though this is illegal with Knock Off). Finally I know I assume throughout this whole paragraph that Fearow is choice banded, and this is because with a measly base 90 attack it is laughably weak without a choice band boost.

 

[Choice Banned]

B+ ----> A-/A

While I was someone who advocated for Huntail dropping in the first place, I think that it got enough new toys from ORAS to push it back up to its former rank. With SS + Sucker Punch, it can not only go offensive now without as much fear of being revenge killed, but also stand its ground better against mons that wish to stop it from passing Shell Smashes. Being a Water-type in a tier where many viable mons, including MCamerupt, Golem, Piloswine, and others are common, as well as being a Smash Passer in a tier full of viable recipients. I must not forget to mention Coil as well, as Huntail can Baton Pass Coils to more "bulky attackers".

TL;DR: With SS + Sucker Punch as well as Coil, Huntail has greatly improved from XY.

C+ -----> B-
While I get that Grumpig is pretty mediocre, having no reliable recovery and all that, with some of the meta's newest shifts, with Mega Camerupt and Mega Glalie in the tier, Grumpig can perform decently as a "utility check" to both (more the former than the latter). Between Thick Fat and decent defensive stats, as well as a Psychic typing allowing it to stand its ground decently against Poliwrath, and finally some nifty utility moves like Heal Bell, this thing has enough of a niche to move to B-.

 

[MZ]

I agree with Huntail going back to A-, but I'd hold off on moving up grumpig until we know if the megas are staying, I don't feel like it warrants a boost if they aren't here.

 

[g]

I would like to nominate Fearow to drop to either C- or D rank. I tried it out on various different offensive teams, and every time I used it I found myself just wishing I was using Dodrio. Its lack of brave bird makes it have to rely on the weak drill peck for its main STAB since Return, its other STAB move, is horrible to be locked in to. Some might say that its access to U-Turn and Drill Run are enough to warrant it a spot over Dodrio, but that is simply not true. Drill Run is a horrible move to be locked into and is often far to weak to kill or even 2HKO what it needs to due to bad base power and lack of STAB. On the topic of U-Turn though it is nice having the raw power of Dodrio is much better in most scenarios (if we are really splitting hairs dodrio gets baton pass as a pseudo U-Turn, though this is illegal with Knock Off). Finally I know I assume throughout this whole paragraph that Fearow is choice banded, and this is because with a measly base 90 attack it is laughably weak without a choice band boost.

Was very bored and i decided to try offensive Grumpig and CB/CS Fearow. To pur it bluntly Fearow is trash. It has U-turn, ok, but it so rarely forces a switch that you will even get to use it and Drill Run is still supid weak against anything not Bastiodon (252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Run vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Carracosta: 160-190 (55.1 - 65.5%) With CHOICE BAND, scarf does 252 Atk Fearow Drill Run vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Carracosta: 108-128 (37.2 - 44.1%) meaning that white herb carracosta SETS UP AND BEATS IT) and I would actually drop it down if possible.

n_n

 

[trc]

Update:

Glalie (Mega) from A+ to S
Sneasel from S to A+
Mr. Mime from A- to A
Rampardos from B to B-
Jumpluff from C to C+
Leavanny from C to C+
Fearow from C to D
Pikachu from D to unlisted

Just a small update this time, but the changes were pretty well agreed upon.

 

[Choice Banned]

tagging TRC to remove Garbodor

 

[Magnemite]

tagging TRC to remove Garbodor

TRC is obviously aware that Garbodor has been banned. There is no need to tag him about it.

 

[TheMagikarpOne]

ok i might be laughed at for this post but here it is anyway

Flareon to A- rank

As one of the primiere nukes in pu along with Rampardos, (Slaking is irrelevant),this thing can punch holes into many teams by first flame charging up once or twice, then nuking everything with Guts Facade,STAB Flare Blitz, or Superpower. If you foolishly allow it gets a flame charge or two up, you can pretty much say goodbye to your team. Flareon does suffer stiff competition from Mega Camerupt (and Ninetales) as a good fire type, but unlike M-Camerupt, Flareon is not ridculously slow. Granted it does have inferior coverage than both of them, but still, Fire/Fighting/Normal has fantastic coverage. So, what is keeping it from being any higher than A-? Surely Carracosta can defeat it with ease with Stone Edge followed by Aqua Jet? Well, you are wrong, it cannot switch in to a Guts Superpower
252+ Atk Guts Flareon Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 253-298 (87.2 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

honestly the only real stop i see to this thing is Flash Fire Lampent (who has been seeing a slight rise in usage), as it is immune to everything Flareon throws at it. However, it is weak to some top tier stuff, like Sneasel and Carracosta and weak to stealth rock.

 

[Magnemite]

The metagame has the potential to shift quite a bit in the next week or so but i might as well make a few noms regarding the post-Garbodor meta.

Swanna from B to B+

The reason we dropped this before was because it was worn down too easily and had trouble doing its job at times, but the huge shift away from hazard reliant teams has let Swanna focus more on nuking things first and supporting its team if it needs to later. Very few Pokemon on offensive teams can switch into Swanna, and the few that can hate the occasional (or more than occasional) burn or confuse. Swanna's great base 98 Speed lets it outspeed a huge portion of the meta as well. Despite the fact that hazard removal is valued a lot less now, Swanna is definitely worthy of going back up to its previous B+ ranking.


Swalot from E to not E (D or C- works for now i guess)

Now that Garbodor has been banned, Swalot is the only defensive mono-Poison type in PU. While it is obviously nowhere near as good as Garbodor was, it at least has a niche now. It lacks recovery, but un-Knock Off-able Leftovers makes up for this a bit. Swalot is a decent check to threats such as Leafeon and Serperior, and its access to Encore differentiates it a bit from other defensive Pokemon. Swalot is still kinda bad, but it's definitely not E rank bad anymore.


Whirlipede from C- to B / B-

Whirlipede is by far the best suicide tspiker in PU, and once regular Glalie goes up to NU / RU it will be the best suicide spiker period. Its access to Speed Boost, Endeavor, and both types of Spikes make it a good suicide lead that can set up at least one layer of hazards and knock something down to 1 HP. It has a tendency to become setup fodder for things like Carracosta and NP Misdreavus, which can be quite annoying, but overall Whirlipede is decent enough at its job and should definitely be at a higher ranking than it is now. I haven't used it that much so I'm not too sure on exactly where it should go, but I might as well nom it with the rest of this stuff while I'm at it.

 

[FallenSword912]

I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet, but I'm gonna nominate Roselia to A+ rank

I've been using it on my teams lately now that our buddy Garb is gone, and it always can get at least a layer of T-Spikes and/or Spikes if not two, before it dies or switches out. The fact that it's been in A rank for so long, even with Garb tearing through the tier, is a testament to how good it is.

She's got a lot of other things going for her, too, like useful resistances to Water, Poison, Grass, and Fighting, great special bulk with eviolite, a great movepool (Sleep Powder and Aromatherapy being two great support moves) base 100 special attack, etc. honestly, all of this doesn't really matter, the fact that Garb is gone warrants (at least) some talks of bringing Rose up a rank

 

[MZ]

Corsola to E

What does it do? It has rocks, scald, and regenerator as a niche, but how is that enough to justify using it ever? With plenty of good SR setters in the tier, why would you ever use this over torterra, piloswine, golem, or even mons like carbink and solrock? Even banded head smash is worse than relicanth because of the 60% accuracy with hustle.

 

[ManOfMany]

Corsola to E

What does it do? It has rocks, scald, and regenerator as a niche, but how is that enough to justify using it ever? With plenty of good SR setters in the tier, why would you ever use this over torterra, piloswine, golem, or even mons like carbink and solrock? Even banded head smash is worse than relicanth because of the 60% accuracy with hustle.

This. There's no reason to use it over the other rock-water types in the tier. Regenerator and recover are not enough. Relicanth and Carracosta are WAY more physically bulky even when uninvested. If the opponent predicts recover, they can just switch their electric or grass type in (while taking no more than 30% damage from scald or power gem anyway). At least Carracosta and Relicanth happen to have a huge offensive presence, while corsola also happens to be the biggest set-up bait in the entire tier, including Carbink. Doesn’t even get haze.