The strategy of Team Building

I would like to begin this with a disclaimer. This does not apply to many people. It just applies to a lot of them. This isn't meant to be a criticism, but rather a simple observation which I believe the acceptance of will facilitate the improvement of game play. I'm exaggerating a lot of this. But that's because I'm concerned.

To begin, there have been many threads about what constitutes a good team. Most of the time, you hear something like, have 2-4 sweepers, some walls, and some support. But that alone can't constitute good play, or every random 6 Standards with good type coverage would win. After lurking for 5-6 months, while playing quite a bit with people in between, I've made a conclusion regarding the play of the average Smogoner. Spending time reading RMT's, some a year old, most people lack strategy. Now, given the fact that not everyone will fully understand the difference between strategy and tactics, here it is: tactics are the play that give you an immediate advantage, while strategy is the play that coordinates your tactical achievements. I'd like to point out the difference between the average stall team and Obi's team, and why one of them works much better than the other. This is sort of the difference between some random guy on Shoddy playing the same team Obi is.

We have all seen this team. And felt a little surge of disappointment as we realise, "Wow, I have to battle this again." At least from my experience, it's not a hard team to beat when someone not Obi plays it (in general). Good prediction, a Clefable, and some clever counter-stalling can bring it down, slowly and tediously. That isn't fun. At all. Pokemon is an intellectual exercise, not a repetitive Obi-team beating fest. Now, I would never beat this team if someone at Obi's level used it. For a good reason. See, when you're battling, it's similar to chess, in that you have to maintain some constant strategy. Too many battlers just say, look, my team has the required numbers of sweepers, walls, and support; it must be good. Then they get into a battle, and just constantly respond to what the opponent does. That does not make a good game. It is necessary to adapt in a situation that calls for it, but if you are setting the pace of the battle, then there should be no need to constantly play off of what the opponent does. Obi, for example. Stall teams really feel the brunt of this problem, because it is sometimes hard to see what a stall team should be doing. The team above is a good example, it isn't hard to set the pace of the battle with it. There is a fixed agenda: Begin by setting up passive damage, ensure they cannot remove it, and actively scout and predict sweepers while using the constant threat of getting swept by any of the pokemon when they can hurt Alakazam more than he hurts them. Many people simply use switching to counter whatever sweeper they see in front of them, using an attack, and just trying to use switching to go back and forth absorbing attacks.

This is the problem with the 2-2-2 teams (2 sweepers, 2 walls, 2 other, usually support, annoyers, or wall breakers). If the first thing you see is a Weavile, many people respond by sending out their physical wall. By letting your actions be dictated by someone else, you are greatly weakened in the long run. Instead, you be the one to dictate the course of the battle. Start a battle with a Forretress, for example, and start setting up Spikes. Make sure your team can counter the common Rapid Spinners and has a ghost. When you get the Spikes up, don't let them get the chance to take them away. Do something like Gyarados, the only Rapid Spinner that particularly enjoys Gyarados (outside of Forretess and Zap Cannon) is Starmie. When you set the pace, you aren't going to be destroyed quite as easily.

To simplify, let's say you have a team that you think is great, you can counter every pokemon in the game (shut up. It's an example), you have a Rapid Spinner in case they Spike, WishPasser in case they attack you and a cleric for when they status you. Then let's say the first turn they have a Sashed Rampardos which Rock Polishes in your face and OHKO's your team. What did you do wrong? Simple, you planned to counter everything they did. But what did you do? First turn if you get out there and you're sticking to your strategy, it doesn't matter if you have an offensive or defensive team, but your chances go way up.

Thanks for reading this little rant.
 
very interesting. i use a 2-2-2 team. it works very well actually. i've been trying to get a team where i'm not iffy about a poke. anyways, even if someone did use a weavile first, i don't send out my physical wall. i leave my sweeper out first because he could probably take it down. speaking about a spikes setup poke, i'm breeding an omastar right now because i have found that a spikes setup poke is truely effective. so i plan to switch out a poke for omastar from time to time.
 
I agree whole-heartedly. The team should be just that: a team working toward a common goal, not 6 "good" pokemon slapped together because of their individual uses.

On my own team, Ludicolo and Flygon, the "BL" tier members of my team, actually do the most damage on average. Just goes to show that trying to think of a way to counter everything doesn't work too well.
 
Predictions.Not counters is what your saying a more effective way to win battles intresting....I completly disagree with you.Id rather switch a pokemon in and Ice Beam a Garchomp than "predict" and "stragtegy's" on what your opponent's next move is.

But It's all a matter of opinion in these things.
 
Right, and when you're switching something into the Garchomp, it Swords Dance's and proceeds to sweep your team.

very interesting. i use a 2-2-2 team. it works very well actually. i've been trying to get a team where i'm not iffy about a poke. anyways, even if someone did use a weavile first, i don't send out my physical wall. i leave my sweeper out first because he could probably take it down. speaking about a spikes setup poke, i'm breeding an omastar right now because i have found that a spikes setup poke is truely effective. so i plan to switch out a poke for omastar from time to time.
Right, that's kinda what I mean about setting the pace for a battle. Since you're maintaining the offensive, like if your lead can take down a Weavile, as you say yours can, then you're maintaining control, rather than letting the other person's actions determine yours.
 
personally im more of a 2-3-1 team guy but i use it with much success in many of my BL matches. basicly just keep your foe guessing heres what i did 1 time:

he has salamence out
i switch in blissey
salamence uses fireblast (life orb dmg)
______________
i switch out blissey for sprittomb
salamence uses brick break
______________
i switch out for aerodacyl
salamence uses brick break (taking less than 50%) (life orb dmg)
______________
Aerodacyl uses Icefang for OKHO
 

obi

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"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." - Sun Tzu, the Art of War

A lot of people say that many of my teams particularly weak to losing a Pokemon. They seem to believe that if you have a unifying strategy, you automatically lose if that is hindered. What this really means is that, if I lose a Pokemon, my team is closer to a "regular" team. I'd rather have a team that gains vulnerabilities if I lose a Pokemon than a team that has those same vulnerabilities regardless.

Now of course, some teams, like BP teams, may be more vulnerable to losing one Pokemon than a bunch of dudes slapped together. However, if such a team is well crafted, it's also a lot harder to take out that one Pokemon.
 
Well, ideally one would have a good sort of contingency plan. If you lose a critical pokemon in your plan and that's enough to knock you out of the match, then you should perhaps rethink your team idea.
 
My thought is, who the fuck cares if I can't cover everything? I know sure as hell they can't cover my 6, so why bother with that? But that's on my thought process.
 
meh for DP I disagree with the ideal of a "balanced" team simply because you cant have 2 walls and still be good defensively and 2 sweepers and still constantly apply pressure...i mean with enough experience and smart playing you can win but its not as effective as running a team made to apply constant pressure and attack and beat down a team or slowly win and shut down defense...

Aero brings up a good point as more offensive DP got covering all threats is pretty damn hard so why not run 6 straight attackers and make them try and survive chances are they aren't covering 1/6 attacker
 
i rather have extremely offense 5 sweepers
or like 4 walls+ tanks on my team rather than balance that wall u can cover more threats and wear them down to then clean up with last 2

theme ice teams would be an exception where u just have bronzong and 5 ice ones
 
Okay... heres my views: *ignores other posts*

-Lead has to be able to take on common leads (Gyarados, Hippo, Weavile, etc.)
-Combind pokemon typings have no outstanding weaknesses
-You can handle Heracross
-You have a strategy...
-----If offensive, say, setting up a Dragonite sweep late game, focus on Dragonite's counters before other pokemon.
-----If defensive, make sure it isn't to gimmicky and that you can handle battling w/o a powerful sweeper.
-----Make sure that in all cases that each pokemon on your team has some synergy with AT LEAST 1 other pokemon (i.e. Gyaravire, Growthtran, T-tar/Gengar, or in my case, HeatZong, which works very nicely.
-That you can counter the majority of pokemon. Not all of them, but the more OU/powerful they are, the higher priority they should be.
-You have both sides of the offensive spectrum covered Defensively.
-You either have a RSer, someone who can absorb toxic spikes, or have pokemon that do not worry about spikes
-Realize that your team will be far from perfect in its first draft.

I'm prolly missing something, but those are some important points.

Also, a team is only as good as the player using it. A team can be seen as perfect in the eyes of a pro, but if the person they're trying to help with team building cannot use the team correctly, then they will still lose.
 
Okay... heres my views: *ignores other posts*

-Lead has to be able to take on common leads (Gyarados, Hippo, Weavile, etc.)
-Combind pokemon typings have no outstanding weaknesses
-You can handle Heracross
-You have a strategy...
-----If offensive, say, setting up a Dragonite sweep late game, focus on Dragonite's counters before other pokemon.
-----If defensive, make sure it isn't to gimmicky and that you can handle battling w/o a powerful sweeper.
-----Make sure that in all cases that each pokemon on your team has some synergy with AT LEAST 1 other pokemon (i.e. Gyaravire, Growthtran, T-tar/Gengar, or in my case, HeatZong, which works very nicely.
-That you can counter the majority of pokemon. Not all of them, but the more OU/powerful they are, the higher priority they should be.
-You have both sides of the offensive spectrum covered Defensively.
-You either have a RSer, someone who can absorb toxic spikes, or have pokemon that do not worry about spikes
-Realize that your team will be far from perfect in its first draft.

I'm prolly missing something, but those are some important points.

Also, a team is only as good as the player using it. A team can be seen as perfect in the eyes of a pro, but if the person they're trying to help with team building cannot use the team correctly, then they will still lose.
Quoted for truth. Seriously, it would make team rating a lot more interesting if people actually took the time to sit down, make a draft, make sure the draft follows this sort of thing, and fix mistakes before posting an RMT.
 

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