The sumo wrestler and the duck.

Sharpteeth

Well, I guess there's nothing better to start a discussion thread than an example. Please note that the following few turns of battles are between two entirely fictional battlers, nicknamed Ash and Gary because I felt like it. They both know each other's team members, but not the movesets. It's also not the start of the battle. If you must know, Pikachu fainted already.:naughty:

Turn 1: After a double ko.
Ash sent out Heatran.
Gary sent out Scizor.

Ok, so Gary's not stupid, he's going to switch. Ash isn't retarded either, he's not going to use Fire Blast on an obvious switch.

Turn 2:
Gary withdrew Scizor and sent out Blissey.
Ash withdrew Heatran and sent out Salamence.

Yeah, he has one. Obvious switch again.

Turn 3:
Gary withdrew Blissey and sent out Latias.
Ash withdrew Salamence and sent out Tyrannitar.

Ok, fanfiction's almost over. Just one more turn. Gary knew Ash's TTar had DD, so the choice was obvious.

Turn 4:
Gary withdrew Latias and sent out Scizor.
Tyrannitar used Flamethrower!
It's super effective!
Scizor lost a shitload % of it health!
Gary's Scizor fainted!

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Yeah, I'm bad with examples. Anyway, let's look at what happened here. Anyone who played competitively for long enough will recognize that Ash had an overwhelming momentum, momentum which led to a KO. If you look at the Archived Warstories, you'll also notice that several authors refer to that "momentum". Of course, knowing that doesn't help in understanding it.

What is momentum?

That's a good question. First, let's look at the normal definition of momentum: in physics, momentum is defined as the product of velocity and mass. That means that a duck going at 10m/s has less momentum than a sumo wrestler going at 10 m/s (my old textbook used that example, hence the title of the thread).

Now, let's see how that could be applied to competitive Pokemon battling. The "velocity" part, in my opinion, refers to the smoothness in executing a strategy. The smoother it goes, the fastest you achieve your goal. The "mass" refers to the impact of the goal. Of course, spending 5 turns to try to Toxic a Blissey has less weight than spending 5 turns trying to kill a Scizor. Since the "momentum" is the result of these two, the momentum could be defined as "the result of executing a strategy correctly in order to reach a goal". That doesn't make much sense, so I'll use another example. Pikachu's still dead.

Turn 1:
Ash sent out Tyrannitar.
Gary sent out Scizor.

Same match up as last time, but the difference is huge. This time, Tyrannitar has to switch.

Turn 2:
Ash withdrew Tyrannitar and sent out Salamence.
Scizor used U-Turn.
Gary sent out Latias.

Here, Gary forced a switch, gaining some momentum. He then used U-Turn to get a perfect prediction on the switch, gaining even more momentum.

Turn 3:
Ash withdrew Salamence and sent out Metagross.
Latias used Draco Meteor.
Latias' Special Attack was blah blah...

In this turn, Gary predicted that Ash would predict that Gary would use Surf to hit Tyrannitar or Metagross, hence he used Draco Meteor to KO Salamence. In short, he overpredicted which cost him the momentum he had.

Turn 4:
Gary withdrew Latias and sent out Magnezone.
Metagross used Agility.

In previous battles, Metagross only used Meteor Mash or Explosion to score KOs, leading Gary to assume it was a CBGross. Obviously, it's an AgilityGross. Ash bluffed a set in order to gain momentum.

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No more fanfiction. I swear. These 4 turns showed us several ways to affect momentum.

Ways to gain momentum.

-Using U-Turn/Baton Pass:
This is one of the most common way to get momentum. Since these moves are basically a switch after the opponent showed his Pokemon, they allow you to instantly get momentum, and, if you had some, retain it.

-Double switching:
Double switching had a thread made about it, so I won't discuss it too much. Double switches rely on knowledge of your opponent's team and prediction. As long as you have both, you can do it correctly. Double switches are often used in chains to force switches, eventually leading to a favorable match-up, which might lead to a kill.

-Bluffing a set
This is used when you have a Pokemon like Metagross, Heatran, Tyrannitar, who often carry Choice items. If you switch the Choice item for an invisible item (read: not Life Orb or Leftovers), you can bluff that you're unable to switch move, only to surprise them with an Agility, Substitute, or just an Earthquake on the Lucario who switched into your "Banded" Pursuit.

All of these lead you to being able to force switches. At its most basic, high level competitive Pokemon is often forcing enough switches to create that window of opportunity where you can place a game-breaking move (always a Swords Dance against me for some reason. My team is SDLuke weak...).

However, when you did those three ways above, you have to be able to use it fast. If you keep trying to maintain it, eventually, your opponent will catch on and wrench it back from you.

Some of the ways you can lose momentum.

-Not predicting:
Great, you managed to force a double switch of your Lucario against your opponent's Blissey. Then you go and use Close Combat as your opponent switches in a Gengar. Momentum is based on prediction. The moment you underpredict, your opponent gets momentum.

-Overpredicting:
When your knowledge of your opponent's team is limited, don't be stupid and use high-risk, high-reward move like Focus Blast on the off chance your opponent has a Tyrannitar. Early, it's best to go for the middle-ground. Use a powerful, generic move that can punch holes through some stuff and at least dent some other stuff, like Draco Meteor or Stone Edge. Don't use the HP Electric you keep only for Gyarados either. Also, if you predict that your opponent will predict that you'll predict that he'll predict that you'll use Earthquake, you're probably too far off. Don't assume that the opponent will stay in a risky situation.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. Momentum is hard to define, impossible to measure, but it's basically forcing switches. When the momentum is against your opponent, often, he will do the basic "safe" moves, which can lead you to gain ground.

Since this isn't a monologue, here's the question: what do you think momentum is, and how can you apply that definition to Pokemon (aka, how do you win with it)? Or, if you don't believe in momentum, why not?
 
momentum is simply when you're doing what you want but they're not doing what they want, or your plan is going faster than their plan

imagine a sumo wrestler and a duck and on every turn they charge at each other. they both have a plan they want to accomplish, and obviously the sumo wrestler will win every time, right? so to apply it here if you have the obvious upper hand on any given turn then that means you have more momentum. of course momentum can build up, and in your example having 4 turns of the complete upper hand means that you have an enormous amount of momentum

it is pretty interesting that stall by its very nature has no momentum though, its pretty much designed to break momentum and then the momentum crashes back onto itself =o

also, in my opinion momentum ONLY depends on the CURRENT matchup, who cares about what happens in later turns because if the guy sets up a lucario on that ttar its not that the ttar person never had momentum, its just that it was completely taken away
 
boredomisbliss said:
momentum is simply when you're doing what you want but they're not doing what they want, or your plan is going faster than their plan

imagine a sumo wrestler and a duck and on every turn they charge at each other. they both have a plan they want to accomplish, and obviously the sumo wrestler will win every time, right? so to apply it here if you have the obvious upper hand on any given turn then that means you have more momentum. of course momentum can build up, and in your example having 4 turns of the complete upper hand means that you have an enormous amount of momentum

it is pretty interesting that stall by its very nature has no momentum though, its pretty much designed to break momentum and then the momentum crashes back onto itself =o
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In physics, a classic paradox is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an unmovable object?

Stall happens to be next to unmovable and Hyper-Offense is next to unstoppable.

As for momentum, this is the thing that separates the good from the best.

The ability to punish mistakes, forcing your opponent to play at your level or lose.

The ability to maintain a lead. Once you have the upper hand, you must drive it home.


Prediction, or lack there of, is how you force the opponent to screw up. If you can get tricky and mess them up (like Tyranitar's Flamethrower in the example) then you just punished their mistake, giving you the lead. I think most good players can do this, though this can be extrapolated into complex mind games which define perfect skill level match ups.

Anyways, once a lead is gotten, via prediction, it must be maintained, especially with so many capable sweepers who need one turn to crush you. I feel prediction is less important here, but the same level must be maintained to avoid making a mistake yourself, which is a difficult task. What really is important is not over-predicting, which is a mistake in itself. This is especially difficult when a skilled opponent is looking to do to you what you did to him/her (or vice versa).


This is basically the meta game of pokemon in an slightly coherent nutshell haha.
 
Ash is way too noob to get a Heatran...or a Salamence...or a Metagross...or a TTar...
If you don't want to read my long monologue, go down the bold at the end.

Momentum is simply, how fast you are going, and how big you are. If you are running 5-2, thats going fast. If its your Salamence who just got 4 DDs in, thats big. If you decide to set up on a Roar-less Swampert with Gyarados when its 5-2, thats going big and fast. Whoever has the overall advantage, has the momentum.

Now, I say overall. Why? Suppose its TTar vs Latias, TTar user is up 4-2, having lost Vaporeon and Blissey, two support pokemon that have "little use anyways" when the game is all wrapped up. You would suppose the TTar user has the clear momentum, right? Well, its only in this particular matchup. If the Latias user has, say, SubPeteya Empoleon waiting to set up on TTar's Crunch/Pursuit/Ice Beam(wtf)/Stone Edge, who truely has the momentum? In this case, the TTar user has no momentum, despite how favorable the match-up is, because that Empoleon just got a sweep because you lost your Blissey.

So what am I saying?
1. One way to gain momentum is to carry out a plan successfully. In my previous example, I presume the Latias user sacked 4 guys to open up an Empoleon sweep because Vappy and the fat nurse are gone.
2. Momentum is not who wins a matchup, but whose potential matchups will lead to victory.
3. Momentum is a mental game. The player that thinks that he is up is usually up, even though in numbers he could be down, e.g. down 4-5 but he already took out the other guys cleaner, Lucario. I say usually because, even though you think you may be winning, if the other guy thinks he will win because you have a bad momentum, he has the actual momentum, you just have percieved momentum.
4. Choice users typically lose your momentum faster than anything else, see Lucario+TTar locked on pursuit.

I'll close with a recap even though my numbered list is probably a decent one: Momentum is not who wins a matchup, but whose potential matchups will win the match. You may think you have the momentum, but Pokemon is unpredictable, and you could easily get your face planted. The sumo wrestler may think he has the game in the bag, but when the duck spontaneously evolves into Golduck which is based on a demon that eats little children, we will see who gets the final laugh.
 
My definition of momentum is how much control you have of the battle. Basically, if you have the ability to easily threaten every Pokemon on the opponents team, you have great momemtum. When it comes to momemtum, Protect can be a double-edged sword. One one hand, you can easily discover what move a Choiced user is locked into and work from there. However, you could give a Pokemon a free turn to set-up, putting the momemtum on their side.
 
chenman333 said:
There really isn't much to momentum. It's just like in sports; whoever is currently dominating is who has momentum.
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But how does one gets momentum? How do you stop others from having it? How do you preserve it?

Simple answer, play better. Easier said than done.


I would be VERY interested in a study on how much momentum "shifts" during a match by tier which I feel can be approximated by the number of lead changes in a battle. My instinct tells me that the higher tiers have fewer momentum changes, but what do I know haha.
 
Prediction, or lack there of, is how you force the opponent to screw up. If you can get tricky and mess them up (like Tyranitar's Flamethrower in the example) then you just punished their mistake, giving you the lead. I think most good players can do this, though this can be extrapolated into complex mind games which define perfect skill level match ups.

Anyways, once a lead is gotten, via prediction, it must be maintained, especially with so many capable sweepers who need one turn to crush you. I feel prediction is less important here, but the same level must be maintained to avoid making a mistake yourself, which is a difficult task. What really is important is not over-predicting, which is a mistake in itself. This is especially difficult when a skilled opponent is looking to do to you what you did to him/her (or vice versa).
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I agree with this definition the most. I feel that all that stuff mentioned in the first post helps give you the "higher ground", an in turn you start gaining momentum. Keeping your momentum up is continuing to keep the upper hand. Once you gain the lead you gain a simple numerical advantage, and your opponent has less actions to take. You continue to gain momentum as you continue to get rid of more and more of his choices.

Momentum as I have chosen to define it for my post can also be lost. Like a car that has been accelerating hitting a brick wall, your momentum can also be lost.

Turn 1:
Ash sent out Tyrannitar.
Gary sent out Scizor.

Same match up as last time, but the difference is huge. This time, Tyrannitar has to switch.

Turn 2:
Ash withdrew Tyrannitar and sent out Salamence.
Scizor used U-Turn.
Gary sent out Latias.

Here, Gary forced a switch, gaining some momentum. He then used U-Turn to get a perfect prediction on the switch, gaining even more momentum.

Turn 3:
Ash withdrew Salamence and sent out Metagross.
Latias used Draco Meteor.
Latias' Special Attack was blah blah...

In this turn, Gary predicted that Ash would predict that Gary would use Surf to hit Tyrannitar or Metagross, hence he used Draco Meteor to KO Salamence. In short, he overpredicted which cost him the momentum he had.

Turn 4:
Gary withdrew Latias and sent out Magnezone.
Metagross used Agility.
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This a great example. Even though Gary was gaining momentum with U-turn at the beggining, it was completely lost and shifted in Ash's favor with a simple bluff. Keeping momentum on your side, and slowly depriving your opponent choices, is key to winning a battle (at least thats how I see it).
 
familyguyman said:
Woah that's a tad harsh. Why bother with that in a thread about serious discussion.

What exactly makes me sound like an idiot? Is my language and style, in a more abstract post, too complex for you? I am interested, really.
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Don't feed the troll mate.

Anyway, momentum is the ability to obtain the advantage and keep it throughout the battle. To obtain 'momentum', you have to get a favorable match up. Trainer A has a Tyranitar, while Trainer B has a Celebi. Tyranitar has several options-Crunch, which would OHKO the Celebi, Pursuit the predicted switch which would OHKO Celebi, or Dragon Dance. Which one obtains momentum, you may ask? It depends on the opposing Pokemon. What if this Celebi has enough Speed to outrun a max speed+ Tyranitar by one point, so it could hit it with Grass Knot or Leaf Storm? Or is it a Reflect Celebi? What if it switches? Now momentum is soley based on prediction. Now lets go over the possible scenarios:
  • Tyranitar Outspeeds and OHKOes Celebi with Crunch. You managed to pull off a kill on that annoying Celebi! While the momentum is in your favor for now, the switch in may ruin it. This could go 50/50. Your opponent may have a revenge killer or wall to stop Tyranitar or you have a sweep.
  • Trainer A predicts Trainer B's switch and orders Tyranitar to Pursuit for the KO. While this also pulls of a KO, your immediatley at the disadvantage on their unscathed switch. This ruins your momentum and boosts theirs.
  • Celebi outspeeds and KOes. Your momentum is ruined and they have it in their favor. Your switch may threaten, it may not.
  • You predict Celebi's switch and Dragon Dance. You have a powered up beast and they have a wall to try and stop you. This keeps the momentum in your favor most of time.
  • You Dragon Dance and they KO you. This gives them the momentum. You may have something to stop them, you may not.
  • Tyranitar switches out. This means the opposing Celebi can take the time to Calm Mind, attack, possibly set up rocks, or heal status or maybe even Thunder Wave. You predict the attack and switch in your Infernape. You can only hope Celebi doesn't Thunder Wave, and that Leaf Storm doesn't KO. Your spinner is dead, so maybe Celebi would set up rocks. This is the best course of action 50% of the time. The other 50% your screwed.
You've reviewed your options, and each one has it's pros and cons. Momentum is when you predict correctly and put your opponent into a 'check'. Sometimes it's checkmate. You may ask which one puts Trainer B (the one with Celebi) into a check, however the answer is too may things could go wrong. You may be right, you may be wrong. It all depends on whether you predict correctly and use the knowledge shown previously in battle.
 
Momentum is when you predict correctly and put your opponent into a 'check'. Sometimes it's checkmate.
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I think that this is a really excellent way of looking at it. In chess for example, when you put your opponent in check you are basically forcing his hand. Sometimes this allows you to again put him in another position of disadvantage, allowing you to take a piece or force another check which would again allow you to keep the advantage. Of course though, your momentum can be stopped by your opponent, by making smart moves which will force YOU into a disadvantageous position.
 
I have found situations like these not to actually be "momentum plays" but more to just be smart playcalling. I don't really think you are gaining momentum in these situations, instead, the opponent is just becoming more flustered.
Let's go back to situation one:

Turn 1: After a double ko.
Ash sent out Heatran.
Gary sent out Scizor.

Ok, so Gary's not stupid, he's going to switch. Ash isn't retarded either, he's not going to use Fire Blast on an obvious switch.

Turn 2:
Gary withdrew Scizor and sent out Blissey.
Ash withdrew Heatran and sent out Salamence.

Yeah, he has one. Obvious switch again.

Turn 3:
Gary withdrew Blissey and sent out Latias.
Ash withdrew Salamence and sent out Tyrannitar.

Ok, fanfiction's almost over. Just one more turn. Gary knew Ash's TTar had DD, so the choice was obvious.

Turn 4:
Gary withdrew Latias and sent out Scizor.
Tyrannitar used Flamethrower!
It's super effective!
Scizor lost a shitload % of it health!
Gary's Scizor fainted!
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I believe Ash was not actually gaining momentum so much as Gary was getting flustered and trying to make something out of nothing. He took an unnecessary risk bringing Scizor into Tyranitar, especially when he knew Tyranitar had Dragon Dance. From what you have shown, it seemed as if Gary was very weak to DD Tyranitar, therefore, he got pressured to take it down quickly and made a very rash desicion. Let's look again at this entire situation: Gary is presumably "very weak" to DD Tyranitar. He knew that Latias would not be a safe Pokemon to keep in because it would give Tyranitar one Dragon Dance if he chose to do so. However, Ash is probably expecting a switch, or has Babiri Berry on his Tyranitar to help keep it alive from Scizor. In this situation, Ash was just as likely to use Stone Edge, Flamethrower, or Fire Punch as he was to Dragon Dance. Assuming he used the last 3 of those 4, Heatran (assuming it has a Choice Scarf) would have most likely been a correct switch-in, or even Salamence who could have Intimidated his Tyranitar while scouting its attack. Switching in Scizor was the obvious move, especially when he has shown a team that had so far been weak to Tyranitar.

So in this case, Ash just made smart desicion making while Gary got flustered and lost a bit of his control. This does not mean the momentum is Ashs. He does have the lead though and now some control of the battle. But if Gary just makes solid desicions and doesn't get flustered/lose control, he is right back into it.

So no, I do not believe in Momentum. I believe your gains off your opponent's mistakes may create more mistakes from him but he can easily avoid it, if he keeps his head up and plays smartly throughout. I guess you could call that momentum if he doesn't continue to play smart, but there is no imaginary force that just allows you to make all the right plays.
 
KD24 said:
So no, I do not believe in Momentum. I believe your gains off your opponent's mistakes may create more mistakes from him but he can easily avoid it, if he keeps his head up and plays smartly throughout. I guess you could call that momentum if he doesn't continue to play smart, but there is no imaginary force that just allows you to make all the right plays.
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No, there is no imaginary force that makes you play correctly. To get momentum you need to have the current advantage on the field. If you keep that advantage, you put the opponent into a 'check', which practically means to abuse the momentum you got. And on the note that there is no invisible force that makes you play correctly/makes the opponent play badly. It's you using your knowledge to predict correctly. But it's up to you whether you believe in momentum or not.
 
When you look at momentum in Basketball, it goes to how a team likes to play. Team A may play very quick trying to get fast break points whenever possible, while Team B may want to slow the game down, wait for opportunities to score.

So that means, momentum is not whether you're winning, but whether or not you're doing what you want to do.

Your team relies on a SubPetaya Empoleon to sweep. If you're slowly killing it's counters, you have momentum.

But in that same match, what if your opponent relies on SD Luke to sweep. He managed to kill your Gliscor, which adds some momentum to him.

So who has momentum? Both of you, but on your respective sides. When not knowing the other teams full extent, you can't be positive about who has momentum. That's not to say that if you're winning 6-2, you don't have momentum, but as long as your opponent has a unknown pokemon, you cannot be sure about momentum.
 
Momentum IMHO is the amount of damage your pokemon can possibly do to the enemy pokemon and the other remaining team members, including the possibility of being outsped and killed or statused ,e.g. if I have CBtar out and enemy has an infernape with close combat, the momentum is quite low. Same if the enemy has a, say, gengar with hypnosis. However, if I have a DDtar which has DDanced twice, assuming the enemy has no other pokemon, my momentum is high, very high I would say. Same if I have, for example, Alakazam as one of my remaining pokes.
 
KD24 said:
So no, I do not believe in Momentum. I believe your gains off your opponent's mistakes may create more mistakes from him but he can easily avoid it, if he keeps his head up and plays smartly throughout. I guess you could call that momentum if he doesn't continue to play smart, but there is no imaginary force that just allows you to make all the right plays.
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I highly disagree with this statement. Those gains you mentioned that are won when your opponent makes a mistake, although small at the beggining, add to your momentum. Of course it is easy to shift the momentum back in your favor by playing smart. Throughout the beggining of the battle momentum gains are small, but by playing smart and using some of the above tactics your momentum gains can be bigger and bigger. As your opponent starts to lose options, he/she will be forced into a checkmate position. Momentum is very real, and you described it. Yet for whatever reason you say you do not believe in it. As for your imaginary force argument, of course there is no force that allows you to make all the right plays. If that were the case pokemon would be a very boring game. There is a force that, when used in your favor, can help you slowly force your opponent to make the wrong plays by depriving them of options. This is what I call momentum.
 
Objection said:
What I want to know is, why is switching a lead out losing momentum?
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switching out a lead is not necessarily a loss of "momentum", assuming momentum is actually real (i'm inclined to think its a mental/psychological phenomena). For example, its your LeadGross vs their LeadApe. You bring in your random ScarfTTar on the fakeout, who breaks Infernape's sash, then outspeeds to the EQ before he can get SR up. Now, you still have a Metagross thats near impossible to OHKO packing explosion for a threat counter in a pinch.
Another example is, your Aerodactyl vs their Scarfchi lead. They get greedy and lock themselves into Iron Head, then you bring in Magnezone and kill. He never gets SR up and is down 5-6.
So to directly answer your question, switching out a lead is not necessarily a loss of "momentum", sometimes a smart switch gets you a big pscychological lead out of the gate.
 
Momentum is the free turn. If you have one Pokemon in and your opponent obviously has to switch out, you have the momentum because you have a turn to do whatever you want. A good example would be how one has a free turn if one sends Lucario in after CBTar KOs something of yours with Crunch / Pursuit / Stone Edge.
 
To me, momentum is when you force your opponent to play just to survive instead of actively seeking harm to you.

As an aside: Whenever I see the topic title an image of Hariyama vs Porygon2 keeps on coming to mind o_O
 
Objection said:
How would momentum be lost if said attack was not effective?

@ARandomDude: Momentum is pretty much how effectively you gain and maintain the upper hand.
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It is near impossible to ascertain that you have the upper hand, as illustrated in my first post on this thread. There is also the phenomena of the "last pokemon", normally phazed away, but now can't be. For example, Suicune/Snorlax come to mind.
 
I have another example of how I can illustrate my opinion of what is momentum. Imagine 2 people fencing. At first it is usually back and forth, but when one of the fencers notices a slight mistake he takes advantage of it. This is usually illustrated by the other person being pushed back in a defensive position. At this point he has momentum, but of course the match doesn't end there. The other fencer can get back in the game by playing smart, and eventually gain back the momentum. I'm not sure if that made as much sense to you guys as it did to me, but if you still need more visualization you can look up a fencing match on youtube.
 
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