Project The SV RU Research Academy - Session 3: Rhyperior

[HoopsspooH]

Initial Thoughts:

Little bit late to the party here, but here are my generalizations on Gengar before a dedicated laddering session. As of current, I see very little reason to use Gengar over Horoark, as they are essentially the same thing in my eyes, both are hard hitting special attackers that like rocking a Choice Scarf, and on rarer occasions stuff like Choice Specs to truly nuke some things. However, in most occasions you find more use from the cheese potential of Horoark over the 30% odds of a Cursed Body proc. Horoark also is able to utilize U-turn, something Gengar noticeably lacks. However, despite these draws against it, it can also have some advantages over Horoark. SubHex Gar is probably the most notable of them, with Gengar's ability playing in to advantage it in this role over Illusion, which Horoark really wants to keep over the course of the game. Additionally, Gengar has the ultimate gotcha move in Destiny Bond, allowing for it to make a potentially positive trade for a team, or just disincentivize taking it as a kill. With these benefits, I can definitely see the merit in running Gengar, but as of right now, I would probably prefer Horoark in most roles over it.

Here are the sets that seemed most interesting to me off the top of my head:

Gengar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Destiny Bond / Trick

I'm not super interested in running Scarf sets, as I feel that covers territory that has already been thoroughly tread. Specs, on the other hand, sounds interesting with great STABs plus Focus Blast to cover Steels and the bike. I think that Destiny Bond has some greater merits over Trick, as a bad Trick can make a special attackers very threatening, Destiny Bond, as I said previously, can be a catch-all and give more worth out of a Gengar. I'm not sure which is better as of yet, so hopefully I can gain some valuable insight as time goes on. I'm think of just pasting this in on an already decently standard team with a decent amount of pivoting to get it in.

Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 HP/ 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Hex
- Focus Blast
- Thunder Wave / WoW

I would say this is the main way I would consider using Gengar, it gives you the most bang for your buck in terms of usage on a team. You just go absolutely nuclear with boosted Hex, and can do well into checks like Cyclizar by neutering their speed, or make it so that Knock Off is unable to break sub after a tera. I think Tera Dark probably works the best, as it not only gives you a resistance to Knock Off, but also an immunity to Psychic Noise which is troublesome otherwise. I’ve built a status spam with SubHex Gengar before, but I think it kind of sucked, so I’m hopefully going to be able to redeem it.

Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave

Saw this set in an SPL replay and thought it looked cool, doing essentially the same as Focus Blast without having to rely on the low accuracy of the move. You do kind of blank into stuff like Hoodra a little bit more, but I think that it's a decent sacrifice to make. If you're able to get by Gengar's lackluster bulk and set up a Nasty Plot, you can absolutely go to work, with this set doing well into stuff like Chansey which has seen a rise in popularity as of late. I think that this set can probably fit on a lot of team comps, but I think the one that sounds most interesting to me would be Webs, as you have such an incredible speed tier already.

Overall think that Gengar will be interesting, and although I don't know if I'll be as blown away with it as I was Hoodra, I think that I can definitely be an interesting choice to consider in the future.

Teams I'll Use:

Specs Gengar

Gengar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Destiny Bond

Cyclizar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 164 HP / 116 SpD / 228 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Dragon Tail

Slowbro @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic Noise
- Scald
- Slack Off

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Encore

Slither Wing @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- First Impression
- Morning Sun

Salamence @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane

SubHex Gengar

Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Hex
- Focus Blast
- Thunder Wave

Weezing-Galar @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Defog
- Strange Steam
- Toxic

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Body Slam
- Iron Head

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Wish
- Protect
- Thunder Wave

Volcanion @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb
- Taunt

Zapdos-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off

NP LO Gengar

Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave

Araquanid @ Custap Berry
Ability: Water Bubble
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 72 HP / 184 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Liquidation
- Sticky Web
- Endeavor
- Endure

Bisharp @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Low Kick
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head

Necrozma @ Power Herb
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
Modest Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Beam
- Photon Geyser
- Earth Power

Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
- Crunch

Slither Wing @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Heavy Slam
- Close Combat
- Leech Life

 

[fluff!!]

The Yanmega suspect took a lot of the time I spent playing on ladder, so I don't have a ladder peak to show. I did do some research on Gengar, although not as much as for Hoodra...



First off, I found out that Gengar is not quite as splashable as I initially thought. Maybe that will change post-Yanmega ban, but Gengar has a hard time participating meaningfully in the HO matchup, being unable to outspeed +2 Armarouge and broken banned Yanmega, which was, like, THE HO core to beat. It doesn't help that Bisharp, the usual 3rd mon of 'THE HO core' forces awkward plays. Its defensive value is limited too, having free switches only on Weezing-G and some variants of Amoonguss. Being a spinner that loses to Knock is also not ideal because Cyclizar. It can tailor its set to bait some switches, but it has to make heavy concessions in both offensive moveslots and utility (Encore). I do believe that Nasty Plot sets have potential, but they are heavily matchup dependant.

As for Toxic Spikes sets, it's not 'bad' per se, but I found that Dragalge is unironically a better setter thanks to the much greater defensive utility and access to Flip Turn. It is more natural to fit into BO though, helped by Mimikyu's much better spinblocking. Stacking ghosts is also quite nice, despite Darks like Scarf Krook and Bisharp being absolute monsters.

I focused my efforts on the TSpikes sets, with a BO structure consisting of Gligar + Gengar + Mimikyu. Gligar is imo one of the best Gengar partners, as Gengar appreciates more offensive teams to use its Rapid Spin immunity and Colbur Berry or Air Balloon to do its job as quickly as possible. Gligar's Toxic also powers up Hex.

Here is a few teams to illustrate:
TSpikes Gengar + Kee Cress BO:
TSpikes Lunar Dance VinCune:

TSpikes help wearing down otherwise annoying mons like Wo-Chien and Slowbro, which helps slow CM users like Cresselia or Suicune. Attackers like Volcanion, Armarouge, and Krookodile, destroy Poison-types (although Krook needs Tera Poison Gunk Shot for G-Weezing) trying to absorb the TSpikes as well as Steel-types immune to them. Bisharp helps tremendously against Offense and is a heavily recommended pick.

All in all, I'm not sure what to think of Gengar. I would have probably been better off running an offensive Rocker instead of Gengar, like Terrakion, and Spikes (or even TSpikes) on Gligar, which makes it easier to justify running other offensive ghosts like H-Zoroark and Scarf Basc who may fit better into these archetypes. It's gengover.

 

[Elec-ant1234]

From my experiences with Gengar, I feel like it's honestly like a very specific mon that has it's sets that you'd think would be good like kinda... aren't? But it's still pretty solid, even if it does lose to it's Horoark counterpart. It just needs some pretty specific support to do much of anything. I don't have any replays (I was consumed by the suspect sorry guys) but here be mine thoughts from it's time in the tier, my encounters on ladder, and like one game that I played during the suspect that used gengar. It lost.

Nasty Plot seems like a good set that can leverage it's offensive pressure to boost on switches and be a solid wall breaker but there are a few main factors that really hold it back. A consistent factor that really makes it just not be able to do this is the fact that there isn't really a huge list of pokemon that it forces out. Our big defensive guys that are slower than it just... Sit on it? Even Hippowdon has the ability to just OHKO it and take a shadow ball in a pinch. Empoleon is threatened by focus blast eventually killing with enough hits, and gengar can survive a knock off, but gengar really needs to boost up and try not to miss. Still an overall winning matchup but it's tough. Chesnaught is undoubtedly forced out, and Forre becomes setup fodder, but then you get to mons like rachi where like usually you can kill em but sometimes you get 2HKO'd by scarf Iron Head, same with Crawdaunt and how it can kill gengar with aqua jet unless it's healthy (34% chance to kill with rocks). Nasty Plot Gengar is like also unusually vulnerable to literally all of our scarfers, being forced out every single time they hit the field. The big issue with this set is that it NEEDS the +2 boost, otherwise it 2HKO's all of it's important targets that it wants to hit, like reun and slowbro are the only gamers you can take out consistantly and still you're one Tera away from a psychic noise. In fact it's the same for the other guys that gengar usually forces out, tera is always a factor that plays a pretty big role in Gengar's Gaming, except it hurts Gengar since all of it's targets usually are able to tera out of one hit and cripple it / kill it outright. It's biggest claim to fame is being able to boost up and get some decent damage on Suicune and Fez, both of which can have their HP chunked big time by Sludge Wave when boosted (ignore that suicune can usually 2HKO Gengar). It also can find easy entry on Politoed, but that usually switches out either the turn gengar does, or after into Overqwil so that's a moot point. Ribombee usually isn't fighting Gengar all too often, but it does lose to Gengar(assuming no tera ground in which case that's GGs), and Salamence is outsped, but can OHKO with Draco + Rocks and can boost up and OHKO with like Outrage or DWbeat. Even Quagsire can stomach a hit and OHKO w/ earthquake assuming no air balloon, and even Chansey can tech on shadow ball to have a winning chance vs. the ghost. The thing that makes this set kinda work is that you can usually know what's coming in, as not much wants to switch in, but everyone has a tool to kill ya with.
It's really best as a cleaner when things are kinda chipped, but overall I'd say that NP Gengar is very MU dependent, and is very reliant on having a team that works for IT, not the other way around.

Gengar's bulk also, predictably, REALLY holds it back, with, again, anything outspeeding it always being able to OHKO it or almost OHKO it, with it just taking like a massive 90% from just regular neutral hits. Even the things it does outspeed can hit it for big damage, Krook, Entei, Magnezone, the list goes on. You can hit two of the ones mentioned and plenty others (Hoodra comes to mind especially) with Focus Blast but with Gengar's abysmal bulk you can guarantee that you'll be sleeping with the fishes if you miss even a single one.

You can aleviate your big weakness vs. Knock Off and Dark type moves in general with like Colbur, which is pretty heat imo. It helps vs. cyclizar especially, which allows you to get a whopping 72% off with focus blast, or be able to like set up a sub and nasty plot up if you have the set for that.

A factor that I don't see brought up too much is that gengar likes switching, but it HATES hazards, like I'm genuinely surprised it hasn't been brought up more, like sure it's whole thing is doing hit and runs but with it's bulk it only takes like 24% to bring you into some dangerous ranges
(228+ SpA Empoleon Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 178-211 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes)
like sure that's offensive empoleon but it's still crazy, like
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Flip Turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ghost Gengar: 214-253 (81.9 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
These are not good numbers to be putting up, and it only takes 3 turns of hitting the field onto rocks to let pretty much anything kill you, so you REALLY need to have a good defense to be able to handle the momentum losses gengar naturally brings when it's doing it's

Scarf Gengar does has some pretty good benifits to it, mainly being able to outspeed (mostly) everyone in the tier, and thus being able to weaken it's main issue of bulk by simply not having to deal with it. It is able to do a better job as a cleaner, and that's mostly the role it'll be taking. Gengar can get some good damage pretty much the whole tier though, so if that's what you need to do to bring something into range, it can definitely do that.

Tspikes Gengar though is kinda killer. Like, what Fluff said above pretty much. Is able to turn those forced switches into genuine progress that, in an endgame, is able to set up Suicune and the like super well. You're also sometimes able to decide whether or not you want 1 layer or 2 layers usually, with both being better for different teamstyles (regular poison being better for fast paced that force alotta switches and toxic being better vs. slower teams and in endgames).


There is, however, a secret, eviler gengar that I have neglected to mention. It requires absolute team support, and may be the best, or the worst of these sets.


Hex Gengar, on the right team can be downright tyrannical to fight against, as in endgame scenarios it's able to blast apart the opposition with nuclear level Hexes. I know that the regular sample set is WoW and Tspikes, but I disagree, with IMO the best set being Hex, Sludge Bomb, T-Wave, and Sub. Quite frankly, WoW is useless cause even if you turn a OHKO into a 2HKO, you're still dying the next turn in return for just a burn, which the astute among you will have learned and discerned that when para is spread across an entire team instead beforehand, the damage from Hex is of much concern, even more so when a full para makes your smile downturn, sealing the match leaving you to mourn. basically para is way better since free turns every 4 turns or so is really good and lets you overcome the speed issue, as opposed to burn just reducing the damage and not letting you fish for full paras with sub. Obviously you'd want this guy on a para spam team, but honestly I'd advocate for a status spam team, have ways of hitting everyone with a status and in the end if you're killing everyone it doesn't matter if they're para'd, burn'd, whatever, go my 130 bp scarab.


ALTERNATE MOVESET THINGS

Gengar has destiny bond so you could do a thing with that to help it trade better.

Gengar also has curse, so you could use that to help break past bulky stallmons like chansey, Suicune (Curse goes through sub!), and more.
In case you don't feel like dealing with the horoark and cyclizar matchups, Gengar has access to Imprison, and Knock Off. This lets you remove your two biggest threats, and be able to make progress yourself.

Also Knock off. It's there too.

Gengar is also one of the few pokemon to learn Reflect Type this generation, however it finds very little use due to most mons in this tier being neutral to their own stab, but it could be funny to use in like the Entei MU or something

Gengar also has Haze, so if you wanna outspeed stuff like Suicune and reset CM progress then you can

Gengar has access to Encore, so bulky setup mons beware

alternately, you can run a PP stalling set with Mean Look, Encore, and Spite and an attacking move, or just go Mean Look + Encore + Nasty Plot to become a diet version of Mega Gengar

Gengar still has Focus Punch, so you can catch chansey's i guess

Finally, Gengar has access to Toxic, so gengar actually has all 3 major status moves, so don't be afraid to switch things up, even on a non-Hex set.



anyways there's my thoughts ig, unfortunate that Gengar happened to get overshadowed by the suspect but to be honest, all we'd find out with more activity would have been the limits of it's abilities. It's still good on statusSpam teams though.

 

[HoopsspooH]

Dead Thread/Post-Laddering Thoughts:

Peak

Little less proactive in my laddering this time, but whatever, gimme my 10 points. From my laddering, Gengar feels more inconsistent than anything else, it can be really good in some matchups and with the right play, but if played a little to precautiously, or if your play is predicted, or if you just get plain unlucky, it can feel like it thuds into a lot of matchups. Same structure as my last laddering post, I'll rank the sets I used in terms of what I perceive to be their viability, or at least their viability on the teams that I used them on.

1. SubHex

Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Hex
- Focus Blast
- Thunder Wave

I think I was able to redeem my previous SubHex Gar team, and served the set more justice. Sort of obviously this is ran on some form of status heavy team, with either the likes of something like a Jirachi spreading para, Umbreon, and what I thought was interesting in Volcanion, sort of a more offensive pressure while still doing Scald stuff. Anyways, spamming a 130 BP move with STAB can go crazy, especially behind a sub, but the only real issue I see with the set is that it really desires that sub because it is so, so frail without it, even if you do have something like burn support. That's primarily why I run more T-Wave support with it personally, because if you get the right hax, you can get up a sub at very little cost to yourself, especially with general Leftovers recovery. But again, it does really need that hax to progress without harming itself, because it very rarely can get that OHKO, even with the power that Hex has with status. I think Focus Blast is generally superior on SubHex, covering Cyclizar for the most part, which can be even easier with T-Wave bringing its speed down a notch. Also, Tera Dark is 100% the way to go with the Psynoise spam going around right now, covers that and Knock from things like Scarf Krook or again, Cyclizar, letting you keep your sub up. Cursed Body can also be nice, but really it just kind of exists.

Vs. NatdexTeraStays

Gengar does what I actually want it to do in this replay, a rare occurrence for me. How I didn't end up getting super swept by Raikou, idk, but after scaring out an Armarouge who thinks it could potentially get a Weak Armor proc off later, I'm able to put up a Sub and get marginally lucky with Focus Blast not missing, although it did essentially the same as Hex, so maybe a slight misplay on my part. I'm able to grab Hoodra, and after fishing for a para on Registeel once, I decide to cut my losses and switch out into totally cool Boots Gapdos to throw off a CC into Registeel, which somehow only does 80%. After, I'm able to clean up with Gengar, so overall a good showing that Gengar can be good with the right support, luck, and plays.

Vs. kroktorok

Again, Gengar is able to do something, once again getting up a sub by threatening out a scary Armarouge with the threat of Shadow Ball. I'm able to spread Para to broken Yanmega and pick it up with a Hex and keep sub up because of a greeded Bug Buzz. With luck, I'm able to get off a two Hexes and not have my sub broken by the opposing Salamence. Once again able to sub up on Armarouge and spread T-Wave to Feraligatr, who threatens with a scary Crunch, and as such I attempt to go fishing a little to have as much of a chance as possible for hitting a Focus Blast, or just Two Hexes, whichever did the trick. No such luck though as I forget Aqua Jet is in fact a move and lose my Gengar, still did exceptionally this match taking advantage of what is usually a very scary Armarouge and really just turning it into fodder for my Gengar to take advantage of.

Vs. Agency Tester

Just showing a good replay of the main way you want to play it, just spread a lot of paralysis for Gengar to take advantage of late game, not much more to say than that.

Replays are a little lacking for this set, and I'm far to vain to show any bad replays of myself, but trust me, there are very much inconsistencies with SubHex, if you miss your Focus Blasts, you can really be hurting against something like a Krookodile, or if you can't get a paralysis while trying to set up a substitute, you can lose quite a lot of health before being able to make some, if any, progress against the foe. There are also a lot of poor matchups for it as, espeically with fat Special Walls like Chansey on the rise. Hopefully the Yanmega ban will help out Gengar, but for the time being it can really struggle, especially SubHex, which can't outpace Soft-Boiled with only 8 Focus Blast PP.

2. Nasty Plot Life Orb

Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave

Nasty Plot was probably the set I had the most fun with, but it is without a doubt the most difficult to play with and get in safely. Gengar does definitely have some natural switch-ins for it to take advantage of, doing noticeably better against stuff like Chansey, and even taking Fezandipiti as setup fodder. However, the lack of speed or even a more immediate boost of power that comes with their respective choice items makes it difficult, as it can miss out on some KOs that the other two can reach. I do think Dazzling Gleam is very fun, it does the same thing as Focus Blast for Cyclizar, but additionally does noticeably better against fighting types. While I do think that its possible to fun Nasty Plot variance on BO, probably more consistently with Air Balloon over Life Orb, I thought that running it on Webs to remedy the lack of speed that it wants from Scarf would be fun, and it proved to be fruitful.

Vs. Txunt

As I said before, Gengar can very easily use Fezandipiti as setup fodder, as Moonblast does minimal damage to Gengar, even with its pitiful bulk. With this quality, I'm able to pick up a Rachi early, which gets rid of what I assume would be a very annoying haxxer in Scarf Rachi. I'm able to come in on Fez again and pick up a Horoark after winning a nice speed tie. Just a nice show of how powerful LO Gengar is in the right matchup.

Vs. ltx nemosse

I like this replay because it shows the advantage of Dazzling Gleam over Focus Blast for this set, as it allows you to hit certain targets, in this case Salamence, while still not giving some levels of consistency into things like Bisharp. While it does require a tera to pick up Salamence at full health, Tera Fairy is not a bad type to be, as it provides resists to something like a Bisharp's Sucker Punch, while also discouraging an SD as you do more than half with Dazzling Gleam.

Vs. PokemonCestDur

Cursed Body comes in clutch here against Yanmega (Please get this thing off of ladder I'm begging), and allows for my Slither Wing to come in and setup, getting rid of Volcanion, which could have very easily gone one for one with some other member of my team. Just shows a nice little bit of luck that can benefit the rest of the team for Gengar, and also another decently free switch in for Gengar in Slither Wing.

3. Choice Specs

Gengar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast
- Destiny Bond / Trick

While I think Specs is fun as well, I think that it is generally outclassed by other users of the item, in specific Horoark, which does essentially the same thing but with a more exploitable STAB in Hyper Voice, and a generally better ability. That doesn't mean that Specs Gengar isn't terrible, but having to choose between Scarf and Specs is sort of an obnoxious decision, especially because you don't have the ability to U-Turn like other scarfers in the tier are, most prominent of which being again, Horoark. IDK, probably won't be to keen on using this set on another team over something like Horoark or even Hoodra as a Specs user.

Vs. Monai

While again, I don't really think that Specs is great, it does provide a surprise factor of people who think that it is Scarf, as seen here. I'm able to just gradually chip away at their team, although this is definitely easier with their team as weak to mixed Mence as it is. Besides the point, I'm able to play my cards right until I'm able to switch in Gengar, to which Empoleon should be a perfect switch in for. However, because of Specs, I'm able to pick up a 2HKO and win the game on the spot. Specs can be good, but it really does necessitate you to hold your cards carefully.

Vs. the big bodega

The other real reason that I could see for using Specs is to bait in Cyclizar, which I was able to do here, allowing it to switch in and essentially threaten a kill every time it comes in, or at least eventually force a tera on the Reuniclus. I could see Specs working on a more specially based offense, or pairing it up versus something that generally doesn't love Cyclizar, like a Slowbro, which was able to win after setting up some Calm Minds unopposed.

Vs. JKDX

Sort of like Hoodra, Gengar can be very prediction based, although even more so than something like a Hoodra, as it can't throw off something as powerful as a Specs Draco quite as easily. Having your strongest STABS not even cap out at above 100 BP is unfortunate, however, as seen in the replay, if you do make the correct predicitions, you can be put very far ahead. Having all of your STABs and coverage doing zero to the correct switch in is also not great, so yeah.

All in all, Gengar is definitely a fun choice of mon to use, I just don't think it has the same consistency that other scarf users in the tier have, all of Gengar's sets can be easily taken by something else, SubHex by Basculegion, all of Specs, Scarf, and Nasty Plot by Horoark, it really just can't get a break. It does have some unique options that I didn't cover in my laddering, but overall I would usually rather use any other ghost in the tier over Gengar.

 

[fluff!!]

Thank you to the participants of the academy's second research session! Here are the point dumps for this session:

fluff!! : 30 points (exemplary post)
HoopsspooH : 40 points (ladder peak + exemplary post)
Forest Guardian : 10 points
Elec-ant1234 : 30 points (exemplary post)

The leaderboard will be updated in accordance.

Let me know if you think I messed something up.

 

[fluff!!]

Session 3
ALT CODE: RUA3(name)

RU Research Academy's second session will cover Rhyperior!
​

Today, RU hero and fan favorite Rhyperior finally comes back home after Zapdos's leave from UU ! Rhyperior was a popular mon for being an offensive Rock setter with incredible natural bulk and Attack boosted further with Swords Dance. It also makes fantastic use of Tera to turn its quad weaknesses around and wreak havoc. Let's find out what Rhyperior brings 6 months after its last appearance in the tier !

In order to participate to the Official Ladder Research you must do the following:

Post here with a fresh RUA alt (such as RUA3 hesback, or RUA3 lfg).
Post your experiences with the Pokemon, participate in the discussion!
Be sure to follow the instructions in the OP - use your words and your replays to really hammer the point home!
The goal is to get points through the 2 research events. The person who has the highest ladder ranking on the Pokemon Showdown RU ladder with their RUA alt at the time the challenge ends will earn 10 RPs.

This session will end on Sun, Dec 15th. Have fun everyone!

 

[fluff!!]

RUA 3 CSC

Pre-laddering thoughts:

Beeg Rock is back, bringing huge bulk, high Attack, insane movepool, Stealth Rock, and Swords Dance to be an anchor and MVP for offensive teams.

Here are the sets I'll use in order of how good they'll be imo:

1. SR + SD

Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock / Lighting Rod
Tera Type: Dragon / Water
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe || 252 HP / 52 Atk / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Rocks setter for offensive teams. SD + Earthquake destroys stuff like Whirlwind-less Hippowdon and pretty much anything that can't kill Rhyperior. EdgeQuake is all you need to hit pretty much anything outside of, like, Bronzong ig (which is an underrated mon imo but it's still NU by usage and will stay that way forever). No need to tell you that Rhyperior destroys all but 1 of our hazard control options (Conkeldurr being the exception, maybe? rhyperior could still force rocks on and takes a chunk off of conk still lol). idk what the optimal EV spread will end up being, I'll do some calcing and get back to you on that for my final report.

2. Tank

Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock / Lighting Rod
Tera Type: Dragon / Water
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock / Swords Dance
- Supercell Slam / Avalanche / Dragon Tail / Heat Crash / Heavy Slam / Hammer Arm / Ice Punch / Megahorn / Roar
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Your imagination is the limit. Rhyperior has excellent coverage and can give up either Rocks or SD to bait specific mons: Supercell Slam destroys Politoed if you wanna have some fun, Dragon Tail phazes and becomes a STAB post-tera, Heat Crash hits Steels immune to Ground, Megahorn even hits Grass types. I don't think it's as good as just edgequake + sd sr, but again, it is a good way of baiting random stuff.

3. Double Dance

Rhyperior @ Lum Berry
Ability: Solid Rock
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 56 HP / 212 Atk / 240 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Probably more on the fun side, but still threatening nonetheless. Rock Polish makes Rhyperior faster than positive base 110s. Add a Swords Dance on top of it which you will probably get because Rhyperior is fat and you have high cleaning AND wallbreaking potential in one set. Playing against a slow team? just SD and go wild. playing against frail mons? Rock Polish and clean up. Alternatively, do both.

I won't tell you which mons to pair it with and which teams I'll use because, to be frank, I'll try literally everything. So yea, have fun with this research session because I sure will

 

[Heatranator]

RUA3 Heat

Pre ladder thoughts:


Rhyperior is back baby, and from the limited testing I've done with this mon, its great as ever. It can also probably run a variety of sets and fit well on offensive teams.

Stealth Rocker
Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
Tera Type: Dragon / Water
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD || 240 HP/ 16 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Tail/Megahorn/Ice Punch
Probably the most standard set, Rhyperior can use its great bulk and threatening power in order to reliably get up Stealth Rocks. It can either invest in special defense or physical defense, though I personally prefer physical defense as you can utilise teammates like cyclizar to take on the special hits and maximise your physical walling prowess. The last moveslot is somewhat flexible. Dragon Tail can phaze out opponents and works well on h-stack (chesnaught h-stack specifically), Megahorn hits grass types and slowbro for big damage, and Ice Punch hits flygon quad effective damage. Can be good on either offense teams or more balance teams, as it can output offensive pressure while being good defensively.

Swords Dance
Rhyperior @ Leftovers/Weakness Policy/Air Balloon
Ability: Solid Rock
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Ice Punch/Rock Polish/Stealth Rock
SD rhyperior utilises its immense power in order to break through walls much more effectively. You really only need your STAB's, so last moveslot is flexible. Ice Punch hits the few things that resist your stab combo, Rock Polish does better against offensive teams and Stealth Rock allows Rhyperior to pack some utility. Weakness policy could mean you can drop SD, but is somewhat unreliable. Air Balloon allows Rhyperior to setup on the many other ground types in the tier effectively, and destroys mono quake hippo. This set is mostly exclusive on offense teams, but could have a small niche on HO, maybe as a lead??? Will probably need to experiment with this.

Assault Vest
Rhyperior @ Assault Vest
Ability: Solid Rock
Tera Type: Dragon/Water
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Tail
- Megahorn/Ice Punch
Assault Vest Rhyperior takes its decent special tanking skills with investment and cranks it up to the max. It can live even quad effective super effective hits, like having a chance to live 2 slowbro scalds and always surviving +1 armarouge energy ball. It probably needs double wish in order to fully maximise its walling prowess, but it could be a great mon. Chansey offense might be the best place for this mon too, as healing wish gives it another go at wallbreaking, but chansey mostly can deal with special attackers, but they could form a good special defensive core, and means that you might only need one physically defensive mon so you can slot in 3 offensive mons.

Other Options:
Counter could be a cool option on physical defense sets to slam mons that think they can take its hits (like hippowdon) and could work well with a little bit of speed investment.
Choice Band has amazing power, but is quite prediction reliant.
Curse is a niche option to become a bulky setup sweeper, but SD's more immediate boosting potential is most likely better.
Resto Chesto can be an option to allow Rhyperior to have a second go at wallbreaking.
Lum Berry can allow Rhyperior to slam status users reliably, so they can't try to cripple Rhyperior.
Rocky Helmet can get lots of chip damage, but no recovery on a non SD set doesn't sound great.
Rhyperior has insane coverage, so you can slap on literally anything for it lol.

 

[Elec-ant1234]

confirminizing as RUA3 Solid Rock

 

[HoopsspooH]

RUA3 Speedrun

 

[Elec-ant1234]

so have you guys ever heard of a thing called procrastination and forgetting
well anyways


I've been gaming with AV Rhyperior and I gotta say it's kinda cracked at what it does. And what does it do you may ask?

TRADES, TRADES, TRADES

lemme run you through the set

Rhyperior @ Assault Vest
Ability: Solid Rock
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Atk / 32 Def / 176 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn
- Heat Crash

Ability is the only good one, Tera is dragon to resist grass and water, and the EVs are set up so that I have EVs in every stat You have pretty much solid bulk all around, you can hit hard with 28 Adamant, and you've got EVs to outspeed neutral araquanid. The goal ain't to pick up KOs vs. the slower bulkier guys like with SD sets, so speed ain't as much as a priority as much as taking hits and surviving anything and everything.

You've got both stabs as they're complimentary to each other, Megahorn to chunk the psychics in the tier, and Heat Crash to bully Forre. To be perfectly honest it was Ice Punch but after a few losses I decided to play evil. Last moveslot honestly can be anything as long as it's physical. You can run:

1. Body Press, to screw over Bisharp
2. Ice Punch, to target the dragons of the tier
3. Outrage, for big damage i suppose
4. Poison Jab, to catch like garde i suppose
5. Supercell Slam/Thunder Punch to cover bulky Waters
6. And finally Rock Wrecker if real

Obviously stuff like Quad Super Effective moves are going to chunk / kill you, but like anything else is fair game.

You absolutely EAT anything that doesn't hit you for quad alive, like it's insane

252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Assault Vest Rhyperior: 126-148 (29 - 34.1%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 229-270 (52.7 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 396-468 (91.2 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Goodra-Hisui Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Assault Vest Rhyperior: 258-304 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Assault Vest Rhyperior: 316-374 (72.8 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 265-312 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 177-211 (40.7 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior: 163-193 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

228+ SpA Empoleon Surf vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior: 354-417 (81.5 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Assault Vest Rhyperior: 109-129 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior: 162-192 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior: 267-316 (61.5 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Rhyperior: 130-160 (29.9 - 36.8%) -- approx. 57.7% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Rhyperior: 200-240 (46 - 55.2%) -- approx. 40.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Rhyperior: 270-320 (62.2 - 73.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
+3 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Rhyperior: 330-390 (76 - 89.8%) -- approx. 2HKO

252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 130-154 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 24.6% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 261-307 (60.1 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Slither Wing Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 352-415 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Now you could try and pair this with Wish Support and have the ultimate tank, but I view rhyperior as fulfilling another role, one that i've touched on briefly before: A Trader.

You can throw this guy out there on the field and it's absolutely guaranteed that he'll be making progress. Need to finish something off? No problem. Want to face tank a setup sweeper for laughs? We have a tool for that, it's called Max Hp Rhyp. You can just send him out onto the field to take out whatever you want and no matter who it is (minus volcanion and suicune and slowbro and vaporeon and) you'll usually be able to make some decent progress or pick up a kill. And if they don't have a super effective move to take you out with then you'll be forcing a lot of switches and damage, which I feel is pretty good. And if there's an unwinnable matchup, you've got the tera potential to simply ignore the matchup and win regardless. But like to be honest you really don't need to burn tera in like 90% of situations, but when you have to, then Rhyp very rarely will let you down.

Now the main issue is that Rhyp does contend on teams for the slot of Ground Type, but if you need a ground type that's both bulky, powerful, and able to handle special attackers then this guy should be high up there on your consideration list. It's the bulk of Hippowdon, the Special Def of Gastro, and the atk of Krook all rolled into one AV sized package.

Have a great day and I hope this still counts despite being 1 hour and 12 minutes past the due date!


REPLAY ZONE:

I apologize for the lack of replays (and a lack of high ladder ones too but to be fair i kept getting cooked by Nature's Conqueror and I wasn't about to counter team him just to farm replays), but i did cram this in right before making this post.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ru-2263841332?p2 Vs. Salikkc
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ru-2263197329 Vs. DewosZz