The Throwback

[bobthebutler]

Hey Everyone,
After not really having the means to competitively battle since 4th gen, I've come back with a vengeance. I've tested this team out on showdown for the past few weeks and feel that I've tweaked all I can - so I come seeking all of your guidance.
I really like drawing in electric moves before switching to Electivire (a personal favourite of mine) to get the +1 Speed boost and then hitting hard with Expert Belt.
Let the RMT begin!

Team Overview:

​

Empoleon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Torrent
Modest Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spd

Hydro Pump

Aqua Jet

Stealth Rock

Defog

Always an interesting way to start any battle off. With Empoleon being a formidable but infrequent lead, I've come across numerous teams that have been unable to deal with the steel penguin. I really like Defog on Empoleon, as it switches in to most hazards with ease, and then allows me to get rocks up of my own. The Focus Sash on the lead is classic and Aqua jet gives me a nice pinch move to use after the sash activates. Hydro Pump is there just as a STAB if Empoleon comes into play later on in the battle.

Electivire @ Expert Belt
Ability: Motor Drive
Adamant Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

Thunder Punch

Ice Punch

Cross Chop

Earthquake

Empoleon tends to draw a lot of Fighting, Grass and Electric moves. Fortunately, it's usually easy to predict which is coming based off of the opponent. So, when you know that electric move is coming - the switch to Motor Drive Electivire comes in handy. This old 4th Gen technique still (surprisingly) catches opponents off guard, and with Expert Belt, the Angry Yetti hits a lot of threats really hard. I've opted for Thunderpunch over Wild Charge just to increase Electivire's longevity.

Salamence @ Lum Berry
Ability: Intimidate
Hasty Nature
EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SAtk / 252 SDef

Draco Meteor

Outrage

Earthquake

Flamethrower

MixMence switches nicely into many threats for both Empoleon and Electivire. It can switch in to Earthquake and Earth Power users and get the Intimidate off before hitting them hard, and eats up fighting moves that would be directed at Empoleon. I've opted for the accuracy of Flamethrower over the power of Fire Blast. Lum berry is helpful to ensure that MixMence doesn't get crippled on a switch in, or when trying to sweep. I'm open to other Salamence builds, I've just had success with MixMence in the past.

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Timid Nature
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP

Surf

Ice Beam

Dark Pulse

Grass Knot

Greninja with Protean is one of the most diverse Pokemon introduced this gen. Because of this, it is able to hit a lot of things hard with STAB and added Life Orb damage. Although it is frail, I do have the option of switching into Ghost moves for Trevenant and Ice moves for Salamence. It also draws Electric attacks that can be abused by Electivire's Motor Drive. I'm considering switching Grass Knot for U-Turn and Surf for Hydro Pump, but am not sure.

Trevenant @ Lum Berry
Ability: Harvest
Impish Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spd

Horn Leech

Rest

Will-O-Wisp

Rock Slide

Lum Berry Harvest Trevenant has been a very reliable addition to my team this generation. It is a great counter to numerous OU threats and provides nice synergy, absorbing grass moves for Empoleon and fighting moves for Snorlax. I've opted for Rock Slide over Phantom Force, as it helps to hit a lot of Fire Pokemon that like to switch into Trevenant. Rest and Lum help with Trevenant's longevity.

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
Careful Nature
EVs: 168 HP / 120 Def / 220 SDef

Curse

Return

Crunch

Fire Punch

Now we get to the wall, Snorlax. Having thick fat, its able to switch into any ice type moves directed against Salamence or Fire moves directed at Trevenant. Although Curselax's popularity has diminished since 4th gen, many trainers don't expect it, allowing snorlax to set up one or two Curses and then sit. I've opted for Return over Body Slam just for the extra power, Crunch in order to cover more weaknesses (for example Ghost switch ins) and Fire Punch to hit unsuspecting Steel or Grass Pokemon hard.


In conclusion, my team is not perfect, by any means (I don't really have much that can deal with Fairies, outside of Empoleon which is usually pretty banged up/fainted mid-battle due to it being my lead). However, i feel confident that Smogon as a community can help me grow as a better battler. All and any criticism is more than welcome!

thanks again!

Bobthebutler

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

Hey man... nice team... very refreshing to see some old mons on here. I'm just going to list them and tell you what I think of them before getting to anything major:

Empoleon: I love this guy... even with the nerf on Steel Resistances to Dark and Ghost Types he's still serves an excellent funtion on your team since he is either immune or resistant to all entry hazards that would inflict damage or status. However, I personally would drop Stealth Rock. Though this may sound like blasphemy I don't like having one mon shouldering two vital roles such as hazard remover and setter. Your basically dedicating two turns to 1. remove hazards on your side of the fiele and 2. place your hazards afterwards. By then an opponent would have switched and be attempting to OHKO with a SE attack of some sort which then will lead into you switching out anyway. I would go Ice Beam > Stealth Rock cause with a Modest Fully invested Steel Penguin, you need to be more assertive with him and set the tempo.

Electrivire: Nothing to say... have the very exact same one in my cartridge

Salamence: Ditto on him too... MixMence set is on point

Greninja: Set is pretty much right except that I hate Grass Knot on Greninja. Yes it will take care of Gastrodon, Quaqsire and Swampert but two of those three you won't see as much if at all the further you ladder. U-Turn > Grass Knot as it provides you momentum and possibly mid-turn switches into Electrive and a cheap +1 Speed boost if an electric type is in or if the pokemon might have an electric coverage move. Also, though Timid is the ideal Nature, play around with Hasty or Naive as well to see if you can net more damage with U-Turn.

Trevenant: I'm guessing the 76 Spd EVs is to speed creep on certain mons but try to consider switching around some EV's into his attack to to make sure he can 2HKO certain threats... Personally Trev is a tricky mon to try to prepare for as he does have many different possible spreads, but I'm a Gourgeist-XL man myself... also consider changing the Lum Berry to a Chesto Berry. Your using rest so rest is going to wipe out any status you have anyway so it seems kind of redundant and counter-productive seeing as Trev is a perfect status switch in to sponge the status.

Finally, though I love Snorlax, I have to say that I would drop him for a Calm Heatran with Stealth Rocks. you can have a complete FWG core and Tran can be a back-up WoW User if you feel the need to cripple physical attackers further. The rest of the set can be Lava Plume and Roar or whatever else you prefer.

Anyways, hope this has been helpful.

Let me know if you make any changes.

 

[Chronobreak]

Why is there SDef EVs on MixMence? Shouldn't that be invested in speed? Other than that, looks good!

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

Lol.... I read that as Speed EVs... I'm guessing that's what he meant....

 

[Chronobreak]

Lol.... I read that as Speed EVs... I'm guessing that's what he meant....

Lol

 

[bluegrass]

I agree with Rafael that Heatran would be a better team member than snorlax.
I love mixmence, but imo he is outclassed by dragonite. You can run the exact same moves, and dnite's only flaw compared to mence is he has 20 less speed. You can switch the SpDef EVs into Speed though, since his bulk is much better. The real reason to run dnite is his ability, Multiscale. It halves damage taken from super effective moves, meaning he can handle pesky ice types late game. It is literally the only reason he isn't a shitty version of Salamence. If you are confident that stealth rocks won't be a problem, than Dnite is much better. Dragonite can also run Extremespeed and Hurricane as options if they interest you. However, if you find that stealth rocks are set up on you the majority of the time, than I would stick with Salamence.

Edit: I did a horrible job of explaining Multiscale. It doesn't halve damage taken from super effective moves, but halves any damage taken when HP is 100%. It's an extremely effective ability as it lets him tank all but the strongest Ice type attacks.

 

[bobthebutler]

Thanks for the responses!

So the SpD EVs were in the wrong place and were meant to be speed all along, so thanks for catching that Daedalus1103!

Although I hate the idea of using legendary pokemon on a team, I do concede that Heatran is a good addition to the team. I've been playing with him subbed in for Snorlax for a little and I've noticed some definite improvements. I do miss the sneaky fire punch after a few curses, but ultimately the alleviation of having Heatran as my SR setup has really done wonders for Empoleon! I think I'll play around with the set a little more before committing, but flash fire is definitely better than thick fat.
Speaking of Empoleon, I added grass knot instead of ice beam. Because I already have 2 other team members with ice moves, grass knot just seemed like the better choice, and I also prefer the coverage it provides for him.
I've changed grass knot to U-turn and haven't looked back for Greninja.
For Trevenant, I decided to stick to the lum berry. Not having to deal with para or confusion hax is just so wonderful! I tried to use the chesto, but ended up not being able to rest because after a few hax, the opponent usually got in a better switch in or just chipped away my health to nothing.

In terms of replacing Mence for Dragonite - I would be open to this, but not for the same moveset. MixMence works well on mence, but I feel like Dragonite has a better movepool to abuse, so I would have to look into changes for that (open to suggestions!)

 

[bluegrass]

Sorry, I should have posted sets. If you do go with Dragonite, Roost is a great move, as it gets rid of his rock weakness for a turn and and can reset multiscale. Multiscale also provides a great setup opportunity for Dragon Dance. The item Weakness Policy seems like it was made for Dragonite sometimes. If you are are hit by a super effective hit it raises your Atk and SpAtk times 2. You can bait other players to hit you and use Dragon Dance, giving him 2.5 Atk and a speed boost. A lot of players on the higher tiers make sure they break Multiscale before hitting him with a Super effective attack, which still gives you a (almost) free turn. There a tons of different coverage moves available to him, and if you don't care about not running a Mixed set, the standard set is DDance, Dragon Claw, Extreme Speed, and Roost.

If you want to use a Mixed set, and thinking about it now when I'm not extremely tired, while I prefer MixDnite, MixMence is viable and you can choose to use him if you want. Dnite looses out on Speed, and Multiscale might not be worth it if you don't carry Leftovers or Roost. In the end, Salamence has better Speed and hits harder on the Special Side, while Dnite has a more coverage moves. It's up to you to use whichever you want.

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

Sorry, I should have posted sets. If you do go with Dragonite, Roost is a great move, as it gets rid of his rock weakness for a turn and and can reset multiscale. Multiscale also provides a great setup opportunity for Dragon Dance. The item Weakness Policy seems like it was made for Dragonite sometimes. If you are are hit by a super effective hit it raises your Atk and SpAtk times 2. You can bait other players to hit you and use Dragon Dance, giving him 2.5 Atk and a speed boost. A lot of players on the higher tiers make sure they break Multiscale before hitting him with a Super effective attack, which still gives you a (almost) free turn. There a tons of different coverage moves available to him, and if you don't care about not running a Mixed set, the standard set is DDance, Dragon Claw, Extreme Speed, and Roost.

If you want to use a Mixed set, and thinking about it now when I'm not extremely tired, while I prefer MixDnite, MixMence is viable and you can choose to use him if you want. Dnite looses out on Speed, and Multiscale might not be worth it if you don't carry Leftovers or Roost. In the end, Salamence has better Speed and hits harder on the Special Side, while Dnite has a more coverage moves. It's up to you to use whichever you want.

Though I do agree that Weakness Policy was seemingly made for Dragonite to abuse, I prefer the Leftovers set as you can run X-Speed, Dragon Claw, Dragon Dance/Roost and Earthquake/FirePunch.

Look at the calcs if you don't run either coverage move for someone like an Adamant Aegislash:

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 203-242 (62.6 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Shield Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 330-390 (115.3 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

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252+ Atk Expert Belt Electivire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 194-230 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Shield Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 165-195 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Shield Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 111-132 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Shadow Sneak +1 Priority)

So your force to switch, Aegislash SD and then it's pretty much GG to at least one pokémon, if not all your pokémon... so... yeah... "don't be proud, use fire or ground." :-)

Depending on what you feel your team will have more trouble with will be the determining factor on the coverage move. Personally, Scizor and Mega Scizor might give your team problems, especially if its packing Superpower, so my vote would be for Fire Punch.

 

[bluegrass]

Though I do agree that Weakness Policy was seemingly made for Dragonite to abuse, I prefer the Leftovers set as you can run X-Speed, Dragon Claw, Dragon Dance/Roost and Earthquake/FirePunch.

Look at the calcs if you don't run either coverage move for someone like an Adamant Aegislash:

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 203-242 (62.6 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Shield Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 330-390 (115.3 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

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252+ Atk Expert Belt Electivire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 194-230 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Shield Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 165-195 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Shield Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 111-132 (38 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Shadow Sneak +1 Priority)

So your force to switch, Aegislash SD and then it's pretty much GG to at least one pokémon, if not all your pokémon... so... yeah... "don't be proud, use fire or ground." :-)

Depending on what you feel your team will have more trouble with will be the determining factor on the coverage move. Personally, Scizor and Mega Scizor might give your team problems, especially if its packing Superpower, so my vote would be for Fire Punch.

The original intent was a Dragonite with Flamethrower/Fire Blast with Earthquake. I do agree that the set I suggested is walled by Aegi, it's more of a late game sweeper, when its counters have been taken care of. It was just a suggestion if he didn't want a mixed set. Looking at it now, you are right. With that set Aegi gives this team serious trouble. The set you suggested works great, but I would use Weakness Policy if Roost is one of his moves, and Leftovers if Dragon Dance is used.