I really think that S rank should be brought down to a max of 4 pokemon because it is really reserved for the absolute best pokemon in the tier and I think that the amount in S right now is a little excessive. I really think we should sub divide A and B first and just leave S how it is but just drop some of the things.
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Lower Tiers The UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
I think this is pretty good though maybe replacing togekiss with raikou might be better but I could live with raikou in a+
You forgot Mach Punch coming from the #15 pokemon in the tier, Hitmontop. Though speaking of Hitmontop, it's got Intimidate to cut a Physical Sharpedo sweep short, so that's another point in special Sharpedo's favour.
What do you all think of Feraligatr? It's not on the list, but SD Feraligatr is becoming one of my fav mons to use. It's got the bulk to set up and to survive hits, making it pretty easy to get into Torrent range. +2 Torrent STAB Aqua Jet (off of an admittedly so-so 105 Attack) is one of the scariest priority moves you'll see in the tier. A Moxied up Honchkrow using Sucker Punch is the only one I can think of that's scarier, and hey speaking of Honchkrow, Feraligatr outspeeds it and thus can avoid getting Sucker Punched.
105 Attack is not stellar (it's decent), but considering how easy it is for Feraligatr to set up, it can very quickly become very threatening.
I'm looking at the B-list and I think Gatr fits in well with the scary-but-flawed threats on the list
Meh, I wouldn't say that it should only be 4 Pokemon in S, but rather 5-6 at best should probably do; but 9 Pokemon in S-Rank is definitely too big. S-Rank should probably be for the absolute best of the best, the Pokemon that are absolute top tier. I agree that Kingdra and Victini are definitely S-Rank, although I'd like to see Froslass, Mienshao, Snorlax, and to an extent Raikou (and Togekiss) remain though.
That reminds me, I think we really need to change up the definitions some. Imo they don't really differentiate how the ranks are. I think we should probably use the definitions RU and NU are using, because they're well more in-depth. http://pastebin.com/x42AwfWf
That reminds me, I think we really need to change up the definitions some. Imo they don't really differentiate how the ranks are. I think we should probably use the definitions RU and NU are using, because they're well more in-depth. http://pastebin.com/x42AwfWf
I feel since Mienshao is most commonly seen as a Scarfer it should be A-ranked. Yes, it is the best scarfer in the UU meta, but it lacks dimensions. It can run a good LO set (mixed attacker) or a SubPass set, but those sets work pretty similarly to the scarf set. Most Mienshao will NOT beat a Cofag, Gligar, and Crobat. Again, I say most. Yes, if you run HP Ice on the LO set you can beat Gligar. And Yes, if you predict Crobat and SE you will beat it; however, in those 1v1 situations, more likely than not you will be switching out. Again, Mienshao is DEFINITELY one of the best Pokes in UU, but it lacks versatility.
This is juxtaposed to say, Victini or Kingdra. Kingra has 1 hard counter, Emp. Once Emp is removed (And Mienshao, because outspeeds at +1 then OHKS with HJK after SR assuming Reckless), Kingdra can stomp teams. The DD sets are good against Snorlax and the works, but it falls to physically defensive Cofag. However, if you are using the Specs set, you can pretty much 2 shot all of its physical counters. Likewise, Physical Victini sets are walled by Rhyperior and the works; however, using a Mixed or Special set destroys common physical counters. Likewise, relying on Focus Blast on the Special set is no bueno against Umbreon and Snorlax, but if you're running the Banded set, you can run train with V-Create or Brick Break.
I feel like a Pokemon should be versatile and effective to be S-ranked. So like, sure Mew can run multiple sets, but the offensive sets lack the effectiveness since Mew already has no true counter (bar trick scarf-Xatu, shout out to my boy Moose). Victini can easily lure "checks" and kill them off. Kingdra can do the same by running a mixed DD set. Miensaho has pretty much the same counters for all sets. I mean, I personally haven't used a Special Miensaho, nor have I seen, but Reckless HJK is pretty deadly--I don't see how a special set would outclass it.
Zapdos is like Victini and Kingdra, it's defensive/stall sets are absolutely disgusting. The only counter to those sets are like SubCM Raikou, but even then the player needs to predict/get a free switch to dodge status.
Again, I do think Mienshao and the works should be S-ranked, but I feel like the threshold for S ranked should be raised...in case no one understands, I think at the current S-ranked criteria, all of the listed Pokes are good; however, the S-ranked bar should be raised so more fall into A and the Lower ranks. So yeah, anyone disgaree or agree?
This is juxtaposed to say, Victini or Kingdra. Kingra has 1 hard counter, Emp. Once Emp is removed (And Mienshao, because outspeeds at +1 then OHKS with HJK after SR assuming Reckless), Kingdra can stomp teams. The DD sets are good against Snorlax and the works, but it falls to physically defensive Cofag. However, if you are using the Specs set, you can pretty much 2 shot all of its physical counters. Likewise, Physical Victini sets are walled by Rhyperior and the works; however, using a Mixed or Special set destroys common physical counters. Likewise, relying on Focus Blast on the Special set is no bueno against Umbreon and Snorlax, but if you're running the Banded set, you can run train with V-Create or Brick Break.
I feel like a Pokemon should be versatile and effective to be S-ranked. So like, sure Mew can run multiple sets, but the offensive sets lack the effectiveness since Mew already has no true counter (bar trick scarf-Xatu, shout out to my boy Moose). Victini can easily lure "checks" and kill them off. Kingdra can do the same by running a mixed DD set. Miensaho has pretty much the same counters for all sets. I mean, I personally haven't used a Special Miensaho, nor have I seen, but Reckless HJK is pretty deadly--I don't see how a special set would outclass it.
Zapdos is like Victini and Kingdra, it's defensive/stall sets are absolutely disgusting. The only counter to those sets are like SubCM Raikou, but even then the player needs to predict/get a free switch to dodge status.
Again, I do think Mienshao and the works should be S-ranked, but I feel like the threshold for S ranked should be raised...in case no one understands, I think at the current S-ranked criteria, all of the listed Pokes are good; however, the S-ranked bar should be raised so more fall into A and the Lower ranks. So yeah, anyone disgaree or agree?
Hehe that was me. I think that Victini is the best pokemon in the tier BY FAR because of its versatility in sets and how hard V create hits. I could really care less about the other S ranks but I just don't really think that Kingdra should be an S rank. Maybe it's because my teams usually involve Band Flygon or some other check but I don't have problems with it (Maybe its the people I'm facing using Kingdra wrong? IDK) Not having a base stat over 95 kinda hurts it too IMO even though it does get DD. On the flip side it does have 95/95 offenses which makes it able to due a special and physical set which is nice. I guess I don't really know about Kingdra due to lack of experience using it and not having any problems beating it.
Raikou S>A. Doesn't sweep enough of the most used Pokemon in the meta. Swampert/Gligar, Umbreon, Snorlax, Bronzong. 2-3hkos most threats.
Mienshao S>A. Fast, great ability, powerful STAB and U-turn. However, it is still walled by a lot of Pokemon and can be extremely risky when you see a Ghost type on the other side. There is nothing about reliability in the OP, however there is a risk in running this Pokemon, especially if it is your answer to Umbreon or Snorlax.
Heracross A>S. I would say its the best Pokemon in the tier hands down. Can go Scarf or CB, often leaves the opponent guessing which leads to a free kill. Dual 120 STAB is too strong.
Slowbro A>B/C. Doesn't wall anything, go through the S and A list. Same with Slowking. Might work on hail teams.
Hitmontop C>B. Hitmontop can fulfil a defensive roll with intimidate while also being one of the few viable spinners. Deals with Sharpedo, Weavile, Bisharp, Cobalion, etc better than most/anyone while also being a last resort to Flygon, Darmanitian, Heracross, Rhyperior, DD Kingdra.
Gligar C>B. Gligar is one of the few Pokemon who can completely hard wall top physical threats and shut down an offensive team core, whilst also providing Stealth Rock. Can also wall Zapdos/Raikou if they don't have HP ice.
Too many S-Rank Pokemon, They are all good at what they do but it should be reserved for a 1-5 Pokemon which somewhat "dominate" the tier.
Mienshao S>A. Fast, great ability, powerful STAB and U-turn. However, it is still walled by a lot of Pokemon and can be extremely risky when you see a Ghost type on the other side. There is nothing about reliability in the OP, however there is a risk in running this Pokemon, especially if it is your answer to Umbreon or Snorlax.
Heracross A>S. I would say its the best Pokemon in the tier hands down. Can go Scarf or CB, often leaves the opponent guessing which leads to a free kill. Dual 120 STAB is too strong.
Slowbro A>B/C. Doesn't wall anything, go through the S and A list. Same with Slowking. Might work on hail teams.
Hitmontop C>B. Hitmontop can fulfil a defensive roll with intimidate while also being one of the few viable spinners. Deals with Sharpedo, Weavile, Bisharp, Cobalion, etc better than most/anyone while also being a last resort to Flygon, Darmanitian, Heracross, Rhyperior, DD Kingdra.
Gligar C>B. Gligar is one of the few Pokemon who can completely hard wall top physical threats and shut down an offensive team core, whilst also providing Stealth Rock. Can also wall Zapdos/Raikou if they don't have HP ice.
Too many S-Rank Pokemon, They are all good at what they do but it should be reserved for a 1-5 Pokemon which somewhat "dominate" the tier.
Kay I'll respond to these proposals.
Hmm, about Raikou, I'm torn. It's prepared for really easily, by the likes of bulky Ground-types such as Rhyperior, Swampert, and Nidoqueen (Gligar sux). SubCM can be incredibly dangerous, and it has caused the metagame to revolve around it, and is mostly why bulky Ground-types have risen; it's such a Pokemon that you must prepare for; if you don't, you're fucked. Also, most of Raikou's checks have no recovery, and none of them can repeatedly check Raikou. That said, I don't agree nor disagree here, so I'll pass this to someone else.
I don't really agree with moving Mienshao down tbh. I think you're discounting U-turn and Baton Pass, which make Mienshao ridiculously good. Sure, some things may wall it, but Mienshao can just U-turn out of your painfully obvious switch-in to something like Cofagrigus (there really isn't too much risk to Shao when there's a Ghost, U-turn out!), and resort to a teammate. SubPass is also super good, and all of Mienshao's sets in a way give you a lot of momentum; Mienshao is also arguably the best revenge killer; and running two Fighting-types isn't too bad, per se. I'd say it's one who should stay in S, I'd say it would be Zapdos and to an extent Chandelure who'd move down before this.
I'm indifferent on Heracross. It's definitely a great Pokemon, with some really good STABs, but it's easily prepared for. Unlike Mienshao, Heracross doesn't get U-turn/Baton Pass, which means if you somehow mispredict and let that Cofagrigus come in for free, you're at a disadvantage. Choice Sets are bait for Cofag, whereas Mienshao can U-turn constantly until its counters are out, then get going. SD's really good, but it's also slow. Like Raikou, I don't care about this one either way, but yeah that should definitely be kept in mind.
Actually, Slowbro does wall things; it walls most of the prominent Fighting and Fire-types that are super prominent in this metagame. Slowbro can wall those two things, and is one of few things that can switch into V-Creates and Flare Blitzes for free, and has a rage inducing Scald to spread burn, plus the recovery. Slowbro also has T-Wave, which is super useful to spread paralysis around. Slowking is something that's been explained before.
Hitmontop is pretty outclassed by most Fighting-types though, and Intimidate can be played around by switching. It does have a place as one of the very few viable spinners, as you said, and given spinners are scarce, that might be something. I'll pass on this one.
We've had a good discussion about Gligar earlier in the threat (as well as in the May stats), and the general consensus was that it simply isn't a good Pokemon. Gligar doesn't really reliably wall many physical threats; as it has trouble countering pretty much every Fighting-type; Mienshao and Cobalion carry HP Ice alot, and Heracross can just SD in its face, while Scrafty has Ice Punch. Gligar can take a fuckton of hits, but one of the main reasons why it's not B-Rank is because while it can take on some physical attackers, it can't do much useful in battle. (Cofag can TR+Sweep, Slowbro can spread paralysis, Qwilfish can lay Spikes, etc.). Most things that it walls probably won't stay in on Gligar; they'd get the fuck out of the battle, but also get in a Pokemon that can easily take advantage of it (SD Hera, CroCune, Curse+Rest Snorlax), and grab free turns. Gligar simply tries too hard to be a physical wall, but just ends up being setup bait in the process.
Hmm, about Raikou, I'm torn. It's prepared for really easily, by the likes of bulky Ground-types such as Rhyperior, Swampert, and Nidoqueen (Gligar sux). SubCM can be incredibly dangerous, and it has caused the metagame to revolve around it, and is mostly why bulky Ground-types have risen; it's such a Pokemon that you must prepare for; if you don't, you're fucked. Also, most of Raikou's checks have no recovery, and none of them can repeatedly check Raikou. That said, I don't agree nor disagree here, so I'll pass this to someone else.
I don't really agree with moving Mienshao down tbh. I think you're discounting U-turn and Baton Pass, which make Mienshao ridiculously good. Sure, some things may wall it, but Mienshao can just U-turn out of your painfully obvious switch-in to something like Cofagrigus (there really isn't too much risk to Shao when there's a Ghost, U-turn out!), and resort to a teammate. SubPass is also super good, and all of Mienshao's sets in a way give you a lot of momentum; Mienshao is also arguably the best revenge killer; and running two Fighting-types isn't too bad, per se. I'd say it's one who should stay in S, I'd say it would be Zapdos and to an extent Chandelure who'd move down before this.
I'm indifferent on Heracross. It's definitely a great Pokemon, with some really good STABs, but it's easily prepared for. Unlike Mienshao, Heracross doesn't get U-turn/Baton Pass, which means if you somehow mispredict and let that Cofagrigus come in for free, you're at a disadvantage. Choice Sets are bait for Cofag, whereas Mienshao can U-turn constantly until its counters are out, then get going. SD's really good, but it's also slow. Like Raikou, I don't care about this one either way, but yeah that should definitely be kept in mind.
Actually, Slowbro does wall things; it walls most of the prominent Fighting and Fire-types that are super prominent in this metagame. Slowbro can wall those two things, and is one of few things that can switch into V-Creates and Flare Blitzes for free, and has a rage inducing Scald to spread burn, plus the recovery. Slowbro also has T-Wave, which is super useful to spread paralysis around. Slowking is something that's been explained before.
Hitmontop is pretty outclassed by most Fighting-types though, and Intimidate can be played around by switching. It does have a place as one of the very few viable spinners, as you said, and given spinners are scarce, that might be something. I'll pass on this one.
We've had a good discussion about Gligar earlier in the threat (as well as in the May stats), and the general consensus was that it simply isn't a good Pokemon. Gligar doesn't really reliably wall many physical threats; as it has trouble countering pretty much every Fighting-type; Mienshao and Cobalion carry HP Ice alot, and Heracross can just SD in its face, while Scrafty has Ice Punch. Gligar can take a fuckton of hits, but one of the main reasons why it's not B-Rank is because while it can take on some physical attackers, it can't do much useful in battle. (Cofag can TR+Sweep, Slowbro can spread paralysis, Qwilfish can lay Spikes, etc.). Most things that it walls probably won't stay in on Gligar; they'd get the fuck out of the battle, but also get in a Pokemon that can easily take advantage of it (SD Hera, CroCune, Curse+Rest Snorlax), and grab free turns. Gligar simply tries too hard to be a physical wall, but just ends up being setup bait in the process.
That "best revenge killer" is pretty damn unreliable. HJK hits hard, but it has imperfect accuracy and every miss will eat half of his health, and at that point he will die to nearly everything, including some resisted moves. Not only that, his coverage sucks ass, especially compared to something like Heracross. Pretty much the only thing he has is Stone Edge, which is even more shaky than HJK. I don't think having Aerial Ace for hera/virizon or HP Ice for Gligar counts as a proper "coverage", lol..
I really don't think he deserves S-Rank.
I really don't think he deserves S-Rank.
I can agree with this. While Raikou has definitely caused the meta to revolve around it as Scrafty pointed out, it is not that difficult to prepare for IMO. Snorlax, Rhyperior, Nidoqueen, and more will switch in, and there are a lot of common scarfers that can threaten Raikou offensively. While Raikou is definitely a great pokemon, I feel the meta is sufficiently prepared for it. This is similar I think to when we move Heracross down to A-rank. It's not that Raikou isn't threatening, it's just that the tier is very prepared for it..
I would not be opposed to this either. Mienshao is, like Raikou, a great pokemon. However, there's no doubting that it has quite a few flaws. For one, its main STAB becomes extremely unreliable if any ghosts are present on the opposing team. I realize it's possible to U-turn out and support it with something like Pursuit Heracross or Snorlax, but the fact that you kind of have to run a pursuiter with it (btw, pursuiters don't even stop Sableye.) just kind of defines A-rank. It's a very threatening pokemon, but it needs a bit of support to pull off.
Eh... I'm torn. Heracross centralizes the metagame pretty hard. Its near-perfect coverage with Close Combat, Megahorn, and Stone Edge is really huge. Things like Zapdos, Slowbro, Cresselia, or Crobat that would normally be used to check Fighting-types all become very risky switch-ins. Moxie also makes it a very threatening late-game cleaner. However, there's no denying that it has several flaws. The most important is that it's not that fast for a sweeper. If you're running a Swords Dance set, there are a lot of common pokemon that will outspeed and threaten to KO. The only reliable way to raise Heracross's speed is via Choice Scarf, but that locks it into one attack. Hearcross's physical defense is also pretty shaky, leaving it open to things like Speed Boost Sharpedo, priority attacks, and even resisted attacks are difficult to switch into. (Earthquake, Foul Play, etc.) I would be fine with leaving it at top A-rank, but I can understand the argument for S.
I do definitely disagree with this. Slowbro is one of, if not the best Fire-type check in the tier. Regenerator means that it can even switch into a Bolt Strike and switch out without fear of getting KO'd. Slowbro is also a great counter to Flygon. Even offensive teams can use it to pivot to an appropriate counter depending on what move a CB Flygon would lock itself into. Slowbro also has a ton of support moves and a great offensive movepool. There's no doubting it's A-rank.
Eh. Hitmontop has a cool defensive niche, but it's just so weak. It also has no reliable recovery, so its very easy to wear down. It is one of the few viable spinners in the tier, but that's really just because the tier has so few. I can't think of any reason I'd rather use Hitmontop over something like Blastoise. I also don't like that Hitmontop is just begging for a lot of top-tier threats to switch in, like Chandelure, Zapdos, Cofagrigus, or Togekiss. I think it's fine where it's at in C-rank.
Gligar is a great Fighting-type switch in, but it has severe 4 moveslot syndrome, especially if you opt for Stealth Rock. You have to decide between Roost, Earthquake, U-turn, Taunt, and Toxic in the last 3 slots, and every time I've used it, I've always found myself wanting a different move. Gligar also doesn't even wall Fighting-types that well. Cobalion and Mienshao can run HP Ice, while SD Heracross annihilates any and all Gligars ever. Gligar's niche I think is as a pivot, something that can switch into things like Flygon throughout a match, but pivot to an appropriate counter with U-turn. Whatever it switches into, I don't think there's much it can do in return, so I think C-rank is pretty appropriate.
Yeah, agreed. Another reason to start moving S-rank down IMO.
Okay, I suggest we all post what we think should be the 5 S-ranked Pokes (I am limiting it to 5 because that's already a lot, imo). The others that will be moved to A can be posted separately. I will begin with Victini:
Victini is without a doubt S-ranked material now that the meta has shifted towards the influx of Nidoqueen, Rhyperior, and more Physically defensive 'Mons tailored to counter common physical threats, namely Mienshao, Heracross, and most Victini.
Victini is one of 2 pokes in the UU tier that can effectively run a mixed attacking set, the other being Virizion. What makes Victini so deadly is the combination of bulk, offensive typing, and move-pool. Unlike most heavy hitters, such as Heracross, Mienshao, and Azelf, Victini boast 100/100/100 bulk. This allows it to take most neutral hits moderately well. For example, it can come in defensive Roserade's sludge bomb, Scarfed Reckless HJK from Mienshao (My parallelism is off, but I'm just writing this down as an informative. Please excuse me; I can type with better English if anyone wants), and Suicine's Scald. With this bulk, it can retaliate back with a powerful V-create, Zen Headbutt, or Bolt Strike. However, this being said, it also has the needed speed to outspeed certain threats, such as Honkcrow, Specs Chandelure, and the likes. This base 100 speed also allows it to speed tie Shaymin, Mew, Zapdos, Flygon, and many other Pokes in the UU tier. This is different than Banded Snorlax, who has the bulk to take a hit; however, it will almost always take a hit before hitting back. Victini can take hits from slower Mon's, however, a lot of the times it simply does not need to. On the contrary, a Pokemon like Azelf lacks the move-pool to be an immediate wallbreaker, so it will have to take a hit--and most neutral moves are a 2HK on said Azelf.
Secondly, Victini's offensive typing is pretty awesome. Fire STAB is something that almost every team needs. For instance, most people opt to run Heat Wave on Zapdos juxtaposed to Extrasensory--why? Because Fire-type moves are good at frying Froslass, Roserade, and Bronzong. With STAB, it can OHK most Bronzong with Fire Blast (Not even Blue Flare), something Azelf cannot do. Psychic also compliments Fire, hitting most Water Types for neutral damage. It is pretty much only resisted by other Victini and the likes.
In addition to it's bulk and typing, Victini has an amazing move-pool. The Physical set has destructive moves in V-create and Bolt Strike, whereas you have other options with coverage, namely Zen Headbutt, Fusion Bolt, U-Turn and Brick Break. This is rather expansive movepool for a physical attacker. On the special side, we have Blue Flare, Fire Blast, Grass Knot, Psyshock AND Psychic, Shadow ball, Focus Blast, Glaciate, and Hidden Power. The Physical sets absolutely destroy Empoleon, Umbreon, and Hitmontop, some very sturdy walls in UU. The Special set kills Slowbro, Swampert, and Rhyperior. Victini can run a deadly revenging scarf set using it's physical movepool, or it can be a wall breaker with a choice band. If you want to lure, use an Expert Belt set with the physical AND special moves of your choice. If you want to nuke the common counters, go use a Life Orb Special set. Watch as you OHK standard Rhyperior, Swampert, and 2hk others!
Victini, in my opinion, is like Jirachi in OU. It has the bulk to do anything, and it does everything well; however, it is not broken. It has many flaws. It's main move, V-create, leaves it easily pursuit trapped, lowers its defenses, and makes it very revenge prone. It is weak to ALL hazards and cannot break through certain checks once the full set is revealed. For example, a Rhyperior WILL wall the physical set, and Snorlax WILL wall the mixed set.
I left out the ability because it speaks for itself. So yeah, vote for it to stay...
ALSO IT IS S-ranked :B
Victini is without a doubt S-ranked material now that the meta has shifted towards the influx of Nidoqueen, Rhyperior, and more Physically defensive 'Mons tailored to counter common physical threats, namely Mienshao, Heracross, and most Victini.
Victini is one of 2 pokes in the UU tier that can effectively run a mixed attacking set, the other being Virizion. What makes Victini so deadly is the combination of bulk, offensive typing, and move-pool. Unlike most heavy hitters, such as Heracross, Mienshao, and Azelf, Victini boast 100/100/100 bulk. This allows it to take most neutral hits moderately well. For example, it can come in defensive Roserade's sludge bomb, Scarfed Reckless HJK from Mienshao (My parallelism is off, but I'm just writing this down as an informative. Please excuse me; I can type with better English if anyone wants), and Suicine's Scald. With this bulk, it can retaliate back with a powerful V-create, Zen Headbutt, or Bolt Strike. However, this being said, it also has the needed speed to outspeed certain threats, such as Honkcrow, Specs Chandelure, and the likes. This base 100 speed also allows it to speed tie Shaymin, Mew, Zapdos, Flygon, and many other Pokes in the UU tier. This is different than Banded Snorlax, who has the bulk to take a hit; however, it will almost always take a hit before hitting back. Victini can take hits from slower Mon's, however, a lot of the times it simply does not need to. On the contrary, a Pokemon like Azelf lacks the move-pool to be an immediate wallbreaker, so it will have to take a hit--and most neutral moves are a 2HK on said Azelf.
Secondly, Victini's offensive typing is pretty awesome. Fire STAB is something that almost every team needs. For instance, most people opt to run Heat Wave on Zapdos juxtaposed to Extrasensory--why? Because Fire-type moves are good at frying Froslass, Roserade, and Bronzong. With STAB, it can OHK most Bronzong with Fire Blast (Not even Blue Flare), something Azelf cannot do. Psychic also compliments Fire, hitting most Water Types for neutral damage. It is pretty much only resisted by other Victini and the likes.
In addition to it's bulk and typing, Victini has an amazing move-pool. The Physical set has destructive moves in V-create and Bolt Strike, whereas you have other options with coverage, namely Zen Headbutt, Fusion Bolt, U-Turn and Brick Break. This is rather expansive movepool for a physical attacker. On the special side, we have Blue Flare, Fire Blast, Grass Knot, Psyshock AND Psychic, Shadow ball, Focus Blast, Glaciate, and Hidden Power. The Physical sets absolutely destroy Empoleon, Umbreon, and Hitmontop, some very sturdy walls in UU. The Special set kills Slowbro, Swampert, and Rhyperior. Victini can run a deadly revenging scarf set using it's physical movepool, or it can be a wall breaker with a choice band. If you want to lure, use an Expert Belt set with the physical AND special moves of your choice. If you want to nuke the common counters, go use a Life Orb Special set. Watch as you OHK standard Rhyperior, Swampert, and 2hk others!
Victini, in my opinion, is like Jirachi in OU. It has the bulk to do anything, and it does everything well; however, it is not broken. It has many flaws. It's main move, V-create, leaves it easily pursuit trapped, lowers its defenses, and makes it very revenge prone. It is weak to ALL hazards and cannot break through certain checks once the full set is revealed. For example, a Rhyperior WILL wall the physical set, and Snorlax WILL wall the mixed set.
I left out the ability because it speaks for itself. So yeah, vote for it to stay...
ALSO IT IS S-ranked :B
Yeah I agree Victini is definitely S-Rank; you hit it spot on on why. Its versatility and ability to use both attacking spectrums are also a cool thing in its favor, as it can surprise its typical counters, as both sets have wildly different counters. This isn't really the place to call it broken though; that's best left off to when the actual Victini suspecting happens.
Another mon that I think is solidly S-Rank is Froslass, because it defines offense. It does so damn well at setting up Spikes thanks to its lovely Speed tier, and has the ability to spinblock as well, which make it like Deoxys-D except in UU. The support is brings makes things like Sharpedo and Krookodile a fuckton more deadly, and it also makes stall teams struggle because they have to switch a lot and it can wear them down. Froslass is also really good on stall itself since stall switches a lot and it can provide support to allow the switching they force to pay eventually. It has a Sash set, and a Bulky Spiking set. Cursed Body and Destiny Bond are really sweet, and if Cursed Body activates, you're basically guaranteed another layer of Spikes, while Dbond and Spikes gives you a very nice advantage so you're on 5-5 with hazards on your opponent's side. Definitely a solid S-Rank material.
EDIT: I'd be cool with moving Raikou and Chandelure down, definitely not opposed for the reasons stated in the below post. I'd say those two should go down before anything.
When I look at the S-Rank Pokemon, I can clearly see why they were put in that position in the first place. However, with metagame changes some of these threats have fallen out of the dominance that they once had. At the moment, I can only definitely say that Raikou and Chandelure should fall to A-Rank.
When I first started UU, Raikou was one of the biggest threats with its SubCM set being able to sweep teams at any moment. Since then, Raikou has lost its scariness (or at least in my eyes it has). The main problem that I have seen with Raikou is its lack of survivability combined with its reliance on either boosting moves or items. Its lack of useful resistances, low bulk, and susceptibility to every hazards means that it is very hard to switch in and that it can be easily revenge killed unless it is running a sub-optimal Scarf Set. 115 SpA is in no way bad, but it can't help but seems underwhelming if it isn't backed by a LO or is at +1 especially when your main STAB move is only at 95 BP. The problem with Raikou compared to other threats is that, like stated before, it doesn't have the survivability to take repeated rounds of LO recoil or to have to set up to +1. These reasons are what I believe separate Zapdos and Raikou, and why I believe that Zapdos beats Raikou out.
Chandelure is a pokemon of extremes. The highest SpA combined with great STABs made a volatile threat. When equipped with a Choice Specs nearly nothing is not 2HKO'd, even one of the sturdiest special walls in the tier, Umbreon, is taken down with two Fire Blasts. The reason why I believe that Chandelure is A-Rank instead of S is because of two reasons: the fact that its main counter is one of the most dominant Pokemon in the tier and, like Raikou, it is easy to be worn down. Chandelure's main problem is that while its job is to break down opposing walls, if the opponent has a Snorlax then it is almost impossible for it to do its job. The difference between Chandelure and other pokemon with hard counters like Mienshao and Kingdra is that Chandelure cant simply switch out when Snorlax comes in because once it does, Snorlax can pursuit-trap Chandelure rendering it useless or KO'd. Chandelure's low survivability (i.e. SR weak, bad defensive typing, low speed) means that it is easily revenge killed by almost any offensive threat. While Chandelure is very good, I do not think that it centralizes the metagame like any of the S-Rank threats and this should be moved down to A-Rank
tl;dr:
Raikou S->A
Chandelure S->A
When I first started UU, Raikou was one of the biggest threats with its SubCM set being able to sweep teams at any moment. Since then, Raikou has lost its scariness (or at least in my eyes it has). The main problem that I have seen with Raikou is its lack of survivability combined with its reliance on either boosting moves or items. Its lack of useful resistances, low bulk, and susceptibility to every hazards means that it is very hard to switch in and that it can be easily revenge killed unless it is running a sub-optimal Scarf Set. 115 SpA is in no way bad, but it can't help but seems underwhelming if it isn't backed by a LO or is at +1 especially when your main STAB move is only at 95 BP. The problem with Raikou compared to other threats is that, like stated before, it doesn't have the survivability to take repeated rounds of LO recoil or to have to set up to +1. These reasons are what I believe separate Zapdos and Raikou, and why I believe that Zapdos beats Raikou out.
Chandelure is a pokemon of extremes. The highest SpA combined with great STABs made a volatile threat. When equipped with a Choice Specs nearly nothing is not 2HKO'd, even one of the sturdiest special walls in the tier, Umbreon, is taken down with two Fire Blasts. The reason why I believe that Chandelure is A-Rank instead of S is because of two reasons: the fact that its main counter is one of the most dominant Pokemon in the tier and, like Raikou, it is easy to be worn down. Chandelure's main problem is that while its job is to break down opposing walls, if the opponent has a Snorlax then it is almost impossible for it to do its job. The difference between Chandelure and other pokemon with hard counters like Mienshao and Kingdra is that Chandelure cant simply switch out when Snorlax comes in because once it does, Snorlax can pursuit-trap Chandelure rendering it useless or KO'd. Chandelure's low survivability (i.e. SR weak, bad defensive typing, low speed) means that it is easily revenge killed by almost any offensive threat. While Chandelure is very good, I do not think that it centralizes the metagame like any of the S-Rank threats and this should be moved down to A-Rank
tl;dr:
Raikou S->A
Chandelure S->A
He isn't a very good wall, but he's a very good pokemon. It's not his fault y'all are using him wrong. There is no better defensive pivot in this meta than Gligar.
Gligar doesn't cost turns, he gives them, by absorbing common hits from a scarf- and fighting-heavy meta and U-turning to gain momentum. Stealth Rock, Toxic, Taunt and Knock Off are icing.
Thanks for the feedback.
Raikou and Mienshao... I have already briefly explained. They are good but they are just not THAT good.
As for Slowbro, it's weak to status, hazards and almost everything it walls (Slowbro doesn't 100% counter these either) has U-Turn. Victini, Flygon, Darmanitan, Crobat, Cobalion, Machamp, Arcanine and sort of deals with Rhyperior. It has the Specs set which works but I don't think Slowbro was put in the A tier because of its offensive capabilities. I just think it has too many flaws which overshadow its great ability and movepool.
Hitmontop doesn't need to kill things, its job is to Rapid Spin and to help deal with physical threats. Comparing it other fighting types is irrelevant, it has a completely different role. It is very strong against offensive teams but does not really deal with ghosts (can only Toxic/Foresight) as well as Blastoise. This should warrant it B tier.
Gligar... do Mienshao and Cobalion run HP ice just for Gligar? Gligar doesn't need to do much back. It walls something and sets up Stealth Rock. Gligar is one of the strongest Pokemon to build a defensive core around. I am not saying Gligar is a fantastic Pokemon, I just think it deserves better than C tier where it is more useful than garbage such as Registeel, Ferroseed, Eelektross, Ambipom and the rest.
Thing is, Blastoise can also burn with Scald and phaze with Roar or Dragon Tail. But more importantly, Hitmontop suffers from a meta full of fighting-type counters to deal with Hera and Shao, while Blastoise is a more solid water type. Blastoise outclasses Hitmontop in virtually every way (again, fulfilling two big roles, spinning and phazing, is pretty rad) and Top's low placement is more a matter of that than anything else. All it has over Toise really is Intimidate, and Scald goes a long way in bridging that gap.
I'm assuming everyone is in favor of Victini being S-ranked? I believe the next S-ranked Pokemon should be Zapdos.
Zapdos is an extremely underrated Pokemon. Most people opt to use the Life Orb offensive sets; however, those sets are not effective for every team. Like all S-ranked Pokes, Zapdos is extremely versatile. In addition to its versatility, it is quite lethal when performing any type of role on a team. These roles may include: Roost + 3 LO Attack, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Physically Defensive, Specially Defensive, and Expert Belt. On top of these traits, Zapdos has a respectable move-pool. Moves apart of this list include but are not limited to: Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, Extrasensory, Heat Wave, Roost, Agility, Baton Pass, Thunder Wave, Discharge, and Hidden Power.
Many people will argue that Raikou is the better special electric type in UU; however, Raikou lacks the versatility that Zapdos offers. Raikou may be better as a set-up sweeper, but Zapdos can perform more roles just as well as other Pokes. For example, the Life Orb + Roost is a great late-game sweeper. With the proper coverage moves, Zapdos will be able to 2HK every non-dedicated special wall in the tier. Roost allows it to heal off the Life Orb damage, essentially gaining 30% more damage at basically no cost. Roost also allows for stalling of Stone Edges with the help of Pressure.
The Choice Spec sets allows Zapdos to hit hard right off the bat, sporting a base 125 Spa, something that almost no other UU Poke can offer. It has a nice speed tier allowing Zapdos to move quickly around. Its movepool also allows for a proper choiced-set, namely Volt Switch. The Choice Scarf set allows Zapdos to be a very powerful revenge killer and momentum grabber. These 2 choiced sets need not more said.
The defensive sets are what Zapdos is all about, imo js. The Physically defensive sets will take neutral hits for days (unboosted), and unlike other physical walls, Zapdos can threaten the Pokemon out, therefore no time will be had for setting up. For example, I use a RestTalk Suicine. I run roar, but I use roar to phase set up sweepers, such as Cobalion and Kingdra. Zapdos can threaten those two with a powerful STAB, so the need for roar is unnecessary. Also, it has roost to allow it to increase its longevity. The specially defensive set works in the same manor, but honestly, I rarely see the specially defensive set.
Expert Belt is a good bluff set. No more needs to be said.
Anyone in favor/against Zapdos being S-ranked?
Zapdos is an extremely underrated Pokemon. Most people opt to use the Life Orb offensive sets; however, those sets are not effective for every team. Like all S-ranked Pokes, Zapdos is extremely versatile. In addition to its versatility, it is quite lethal when performing any type of role on a team. These roles may include: Roost + 3 LO Attack, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Physically Defensive, Specially Defensive, and Expert Belt. On top of these traits, Zapdos has a respectable move-pool. Moves apart of this list include but are not limited to: Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, Extrasensory, Heat Wave, Roost, Agility, Baton Pass, Thunder Wave, Discharge, and Hidden Power.
Many people will argue that Raikou is the better special electric type in UU; however, Raikou lacks the versatility that Zapdos offers. Raikou may be better as a set-up sweeper, but Zapdos can perform more roles just as well as other Pokes. For example, the Life Orb + Roost is a great late-game sweeper. With the proper coverage moves, Zapdos will be able to 2HK every non-dedicated special wall in the tier. Roost allows it to heal off the Life Orb damage, essentially gaining 30% more damage at basically no cost. Roost also allows for stalling of Stone Edges with the help of Pressure.
The Choice Spec sets allows Zapdos to hit hard right off the bat, sporting a base 125 Spa, something that almost no other UU Poke can offer. It has a nice speed tier allowing Zapdos to move quickly around. Its movepool also allows for a proper choiced-set, namely Volt Switch. The Choice Scarf set allows Zapdos to be a very powerful revenge killer and momentum grabber. These 2 choiced sets need not more said.
The defensive sets are what Zapdos is all about, imo js. The Physically defensive sets will take neutral hits for days (unboosted), and unlike other physical walls, Zapdos can threaten the Pokemon out, therefore no time will be had for setting up. For example, I use a RestTalk Suicine. I run roar, but I use roar to phase set up sweepers, such as Cobalion and Kingdra. Zapdos can threaten those two with a powerful STAB, so the need for roar is unnecessary. Also, it has roost to allow it to increase its longevity. The specially defensive set works in the same manor, but honestly, I rarely see the specially defensive set.
Expert Belt is a good bluff set. No more needs to be said.
Anyone in favor/against Zapdos being S-ranked?
Im not that into theorymon type discussion but I want to through an idea into this.. I've been using Piloswine for a while and found that it can deal with a number of common threats in UU, Raikou, Zapdos, Flygon, Chandelure(barring specs) the list goes on and on. Its thick fat ability along with eviolite makes it ridiculously bulky, it has very useful priority in Ice Shard, can set up rocks. Again I am just throwing this idea out here that Piloswine needs to considered for this list. It should be S-Rank imo
S-Rank for a slow pokemon that is vulnerable to Grass, Water and Fighting attacks? No thanks. It could probably go in B though thanks to its utility and ability to check dangerous threats in Raikou and Flygon, but losing to most defensive pokemon in the tier one on one isn't doing Pilo many favors.
Oh boy, this type of user. Look, I understand where you're getting at: Pilo is a poke that doesn't see much use yet has a niche in UU, so you want to promote it. However, don't you think that pushing it for S is even a slight bit much? There are reasons why these pokemon don't see that much use because of flaws they possess that hold the team back. I enjoyed using Camerupt to wall Electric-types (Camerupt does a better job at walling Zapdos for instance), as well as checking Fire-types with its resistance as opposed to Pilo's neutrality and Ground STAB, and burning things with Lava Plume. However, being susceptible to pretty much every Water-type in UU meant that the consequences are huge, and using Camerupt did bring some sort of risk.
Similarly, Pilo has the aforementioned weaknesses, as well as no recovery at all (Eviolite over Leftovers). It also struggles to beat down most defensive pokemon such as Blastoise and Hitmontop, who both can get the safe Rapid Spin on Pilo or hit with super effective STAB, or Umbreon and Cofagrigus can also outlast Pilo with ease. While Pilo's resists are mostly on the special side, its special bulk isn't anything to write home about even after Eviolite, so most powerful Water and Grass attacks still stand a good shot at OHKOing Pilo, not to mention the Fighting-types that roam UU. While Pilo's physical bulk may sometimes be enough to survive, Pilo really isn't beating them one on one, weaknesses aside, nor can it cripple them with any status it can use but has no room for. Losing to Water, Grass and Fighting types is really something that shouldn't be overlooked, especially when you're trying to put it in S-Rank. Still B.
Similarly, Pilo has the aforementioned weaknesses, as well as no recovery at all (Eviolite over Leftovers). It also struggles to beat down most defensive pokemon such as Blastoise and Hitmontop, who both can get the safe Rapid Spin on Pilo or hit with super effective STAB, or Umbreon and Cofagrigus can also outlast Pilo with ease. While Pilo's resists are mostly on the special side, its special bulk isn't anything to write home about even after Eviolite, so most powerful Water and Grass attacks still stand a good shot at OHKOing Pilo, not to mention the Fighting-types that roam UU. While Pilo's physical bulk may sometimes be enough to survive, Pilo really isn't beating them one on one, weaknesses aside, nor can it cripple them with any status it can use but has no room for. Losing to Water, Grass and Fighting types is really something that shouldn't be overlooked, especially when you're trying to put it in S-Rank. Still B.
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Nominating Tauros for B-rank.
Basically he has 388 attack without taking any recoil damage when attacking with Rock Climb, Zen Headbutt or Rock Slide, and he also has a great base 110 speed, which is enough to outspeed many threats like Mienshao and Roserade. They don't even expect to be revenge killed by zen headbutt. Victini can't really switch in for fear of Rock Slide and Snorlax gets 2hkoed by Rock Climb. Tauros is also amazing against stall teams. Definitely not a top threat, but Tauros deserves B-rank just because it's a great wallbreaker.
Basically he has 388 attack without taking any recoil damage when attacking with Rock Climb, Zen Headbutt or Rock Slide, and he also has a great base 110 speed, which is enough to outspeed many threats like Mienshao and Roserade. They don't even expect to be revenge killed by zen headbutt. Victini can't really switch in for fear of Rock Slide and Snorlax gets 2hkoed by Rock Climb. Tauros is also amazing against stall teams. Definitely not a top threat, but Tauros deserves B-rank just because it's a great wallbreaker.