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Theorymon Sessions

zeb is a loser

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The issue is that Tangela cannot switch into Samurott's Swords Dance if SR is already up (which is the much more likely scenario, who sets up a physical Samurott in front of Tangela?), and even if Tangela does survive Samurott would still survive Tangela's hit. Tangela is much less of a hard counter to physical Rott than Alomo is, and unlike Alomo it gets OHKOed by special Rott.
 
Yeah, generally you set up Samurott against something that can't massacre it. That way Tangela can't even switch in, and once it does get in you can beat it before it attacks.
 
What if Lickilicky got Regenerator?
The thing that makes other Wish passers such as Alomomola and Audino good is they dont have to stay in and receive their own Wishes, which LickiLicky does. How much more could Lickilicky wall if it had Regenerator?
 
Agreed, Lickilicky would become a premier wall with Regenerator.
What if Stick also gave Farfetch'd an automatic +2 speed boost each time it came in?
This would make Farfetch'd much more dangerous: with a Stick it's guaranteed a crit with stuff like Night Slash and Leaf Blade. To give you an idea of +2 Farfetch'd breaking power with the Stick:
+2 252+ Atk Farfetch'd Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola on a critical hit: 459-540 (85.95 - 101.12%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Farfetch'd Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela on a critical hit: 482-570 (144.74 - 171.17%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I think Farfetch'd would then easily go top 30 if not top 20.
 
Speed doesn't affect the crit rate in any generation after 1, vyomov.

bobbyvaporeon said:
What if Farfetch'd's Stick acted as a Thick Club?
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I think this wouldn't do all that much for Farfetch'd, unfortunately. Assuming a spread of 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 SpD, Farfetch'd will have an adjusted Attack stat of 502 (Adamant nature) or 458 (Jolly nature), which does pack a punch. However, our brave little duck is stuck with awful Speed (219 with Adamant or 240 with Jolly, so he'll be outsped and demolished by a multitude of threats) and defenses (base 52/55/62 mean he's outright OHKO'd by pretty much every offensive Pokemon in the entire tier).
I think in order for the Stick to really help Farfetch'd, it would need to act as an auto-Dragon Dance or something like that.
 
What if Alomomola got Heal Bell?
The one thing fish doesn't have over other walls is the cleric role. How would being able to heal its teammates help Alomomola?
 
honestly i dont think alomomola has the move slots for heal bell because unlike lickilicky, it requires toxic to do most of its damage. wish and protect are both necessary and it should have at least one water-type attack to be able to break weaker substitutes.
 
What if Dragonair could learn Coil?

It certainly has the body shape for it, even though Coil's Japanese name translates it as "Snake Coil". (Any argument regarding Dragonite no longer being snakelike would be redirected to arguments regarding Primeape's use of Iron Tail)

Coil boosts accuracy and Defense as opposed to Dragon Dance's Speed raise, meaning CoilNair would play more defensively. This suits Dragonair well due to Eviolite and its abilities making Rest usable, either for a quick wake up via Shed Skin or having its defense boosted further by Marvel Scale, allowing more emphasis on special bulk. Coil also turns Dragon Rush into the Dragon STAB of choice instead of facing the risk of blowing a sweep thanks to Outrage's confusion. Would Coil Nair rise in usage enough to be considered a legitimate bulky threat?
 
What if Dragonair got Coil?
Interesting: Dragon Dance patches Air's bad speed, but Coil allows it to attack more flexibly with Dragon Rush, giving it more coverage.
What if Zweilous got Hone Claws?
Zweilous already has one of the most potent attacking moves with Hustle Outrage. However, as anybody who has ever used Zweilous as a wallbreaker can testify, it hurts when Zweilous misses thanks to Hustle. So why not patch that loss of accuracy with Hone Claws? It's a dark-type so it makes sense. Hone Claws would mean Zweilous can finally shine in the tier.
 
Zweilous is to Frail and slow to set up.

What if Rotom-Frost got Milk Drink?
I know you are all looking at that thinking I need help, but what do fridges have? Milk! Reliable recovery would really help Rotom-Frost, as it can heal Stealth Rock damage.
 
bobbyvaporeon said:
Zweilous is to Frail and slow to set up.

What if Rotom-Frost got Milk Drink?
I know you are all looking at that thinking I need help, but what do fridges have? Milk! Reliable recovery would really help Rotom-Frost, as it can heal Stealth Rock damage.
Click to expand...
Somebody's been watching Pokeawesome 2 lol.

Anyway, that would be... interesting. But the best Rotom-F in the meta is definitely the Scarf variant, so I'm not sure how much usage it would actually get. Might spark some usage in Sub + Milk Drink sets though. Tbh, I don't think it would be that dominant a move in Rotom-F's movepool, but it would be notable, for sure.
 
What if Dragonair could learn Coil?

As someone who has used Dragonair extensively, I'd say that this would be the perfect boosting move for her. The main issue with using Dragonair is finding the right balance between utilising her excellent type, abilities and defences (with Eviolite) and giving her the right offences needed to cause sufficient damage after 1/2 DDs.

Splitting the two just leaves Dragonair nowhere near as potent. However, with Coil, Dragonair would become a firm bulky booster. Coil raising defence means that Dragonair can invest in SpDef as opposed to Speed, which along with the Dragon type allows her to be an excellent special wall, resisting Surfs, Tbolts and Fire Blasts.

Like you mentioned, Dragon Rush becomes the STAB move of choice, which is perfect for a bulky booster as opposed to Outrage, providing excellent power and no drawbacks, with great neutral coverage alone.

Finally, Dragonair has an excellent defensive ability in Shed Skin, which allows her to utilise RestTalk to cover the issue of recover that most bulky boosters face.

Currently, Dragonair lacks definitive direction in how to be utilised. Coil would give her a "standard" set that would very effective. It would function similarly to CM Musharna did a few metas ago, except with a much better type both offensively and defensively. And well all know how good CM Musharna was/is.
 
Dat Blast said:
the best Rotom-F in the meta is definitely the Scarf variant, so I'm not sure how much usage it would actually get.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. Rotom-F's speed used to be great but in this meta it gets outsped by most scarfers in the tier, so tbh I don't think it's its best set. I've used a SubSplit set to great effect and with Milk Drink, I'm quite sure a SubDrink + Life Orb set would be pretty viable and effective. In addition, Milk Drink also alleviates that weakness to residual damage and will make Rotom-F much better and give Jynx another piece of competition. I don't expect its usage to rise by miles though, since Jynx is still the more popular (and arguably more effective) option.
 
Since my potential theorymons haven't been as well-received as they could have been had my main audience at the time (a portion of Showdown) not been drunk or completely incompetent, I'd like to bring them here. Just one for now, but I believe it could result in a convincing and meaningful tier-up as well as making a hugely popular NU set redundant:

What if Sawk got Sucker Punch?

I have no question that, as Sawk is already competing for top dog in NU, that his Scarf set will be eradicated with this introduction, thus allowing him to continue on his merry way to RU with either LO/Expert Belt Sucker Punch, or his traditional Band set. Sawk has a wide array of powers, and while recovery may not be his best (but I'll leave that to another time, he is still amazing in NU and would no doubt qualify for a tier-up by overcoming his relative Speed issue without getting locked in. Besides, it is also a fantastic check to Psychic attackers such as Mesprit or Slowbro/Slowking looking for the Scald burn. So is this a wise theorymon?
 
Dat Blast said:
Somebody's been watching Pokeawesome 2 lol.

Anyway, that would be... interesting. But the best Rotom-F in the meta is definitely the Scarf variant, so I'm not sure how much usage it would actually get. Might spark some usage in Sub + Milk Drink sets though. Tbh, I don't think it would be that dominant a move in Rotom-F's movepool, but it would be notable, for sure.
Click to expand...

Well now SubSplit would become obsolete since Milk Drink is a much better recovery move than Pain Split, and the dual STABs do plenty of damage anyway. Outside of these types of defensive sets, I don't think it'd see much use since it is so weird to see non-damaging recovery moves on a CS Pokemon.

The concept of new drops is interesting. I'll add one:

What if Electivire came to NU? Electivire's great coverage would serve it well in NU, checking a wide variety of Pokemon with just Wild Charge and Ice Punch alone. It would give Eelektross some competition since Electivire is much faster and suits some types of teams better, although Eelektross's special movepool is superior, with Volt Switch, Grass Knot, and Acid Spray at its disposal beyond what Electivire has. Scarf Electivire would also become a great revenge killer since it outspeeds all of unboosted NU, something Eelektross cannot do.

What if Eelektross got Sucker Punch?

Finally, Eelektross gets some priority! And it is one of the strongest priority moves out there. Eelektross's bulk means that straight-up attacking it is often the way to beat it, letting Eelektross get the jump on fast, frail Pokemon. However, Sucker Punch is not the best move in terms of coverage, and would often have to replace a key coverage move such as Aqua Tail or Grass Knot. Still, teammates can attempt to cover this whole while Eelektross packs strong priority off a base 125 attack.
 
Super Sekemoto said:
Since my potential theorymons haven't been as well-received as they could have been had my main audience at the time (a portion of Showfown) not been drunk or completely incompetent, I'd like to bring them here. Just one for now, but I believe it could result in a convincing and meaningful tier-up as well as making a hugely popular NU set redundant:

What if Sawk got Sucker Punch?

I have no question that, as Sawk is already competing for top dog in NU, that his Scarf set will be eradicated with this introduction, thus allowing him to continue on his merry way to RU with either LO/Expert Belt Sucker Punch, or his traditional Band set. Sawk has a wide array of powers, and while recovery may not be his best (but I'll leave that to another time, he is still amazing in NU and would no doubt qualify for a tier-up by overcoming his relative Speed issue without getting locked in. Besides, it is also a fantastic check to Psychic attackers such as Mesprit or Slowbro/Slowking looking for the Scald burn. So is this a wise theorymon?
Click to expand...

One little thing, this thread is more for theorymons related to NU, and therefore those Psychic-types are irrelevant - so all of us just have to assume it's NU. Thus the Psychic-types you're looking at Jynx, Mushy and Gardy so the others don't need to be brought up at all. :)

Jynx will almost always run Substitute or Lovely Kiss imo (yeah, even more than they are now!), and Scarf will barely be used (not that this is a surprise, since I find Scarf less effective now). Musharna will not be affected by it at all because it can just set up all over Sawk with Calm Mind, Moonlight, etc. Mushy would love this. Gardevoir is less common now and it's not like it needs to run Scarf to really make a difference. However. This could be useful versus something like Kanga - no longer can it safely finish off Sawk with Double Edge, and instead it has to risk the Sucker Punch of Sucker Punch, and if Sawk opts for CC, assuming you don't Double Edge it, Kanga could be dead. Also, Sucker Punch: 46.53 - 54.84% is a lot, and Kanga definitely doesn't want to take it. Then there's the revenge killing role in general, which Sawk might gain some more usage for against the frail faster mons without priority, stuff like Zebstrika, Scolipede, Tauros, etc, just to get off a little extra damage. However, with this said, I agree with Expert Belt or LO becoming the overall more popular item compared to Choice Band so Sawk can benefit from the priority without being set up bait to Mushy and stuff (which it can't do much to in the first place, but still).
 
I actually think that Sucker Punch will make Sawk even easier to deal with. It doesn't really help vs most of Sawk's current checks (exception: Jynx), since they're mostly fatmons. Even things like Scarf Rotom-S have enough bulk to tank a Sucker Punch. In addition, a big part of the value of Sawk is that if you can force a switch with CB Sawk, then SOMETHING is going to get dented (provided you predict correctly). However, Sucker Punch is just begging for something like Musharna or even worse, Gothorita to switch in absolutely for free and start setting up in Sawk's face. Priority is usually nice, but in this case, Mach Punch would be a lot more useful for Sawk.
 
So in relation to Sawk, I have another theorymon. Zebraiken said it was okay, and it generated some discussion in the channel, so hopefully it can get some here too.

What if Sawk was Fighting/Ground instead of just Fighting-type? With Mold Breaker, Misdreavus would take a lot from CB Earthquake and Musharna wouldn't enjoy it either. I'm not going to say too much because hopefully discussion comes about, but how do you think this'd affect the current NU metagame?
 
Sawk would become a heck of a lot more dangerous of course, since the Ghosts are now facing 2HKOes on the switch. Between Ground/Fighting coverage + Mold Breaker, pretty much the only safe options are Musharna and Flying-types, and the more common ones don't even resist Fighting, and those that do resist it are wrecked by Ice Punch or Stone Edge. Since CB Sawk 2HKOes everything after SR at worst, Sawk would shape up all of NU....if he even stays there. :I
 
No, Musharna would not be a safe switch. Nor would Misdreavus.

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 210-247 (48.49 - 57.04%) -- 41.02% chance to 2HKO


252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 175-207 (54.01 - 63.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Pretty much max defense Musharna has a chance to be 2HKO'd before hazards, and...


252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 210-247 (48.49 - 57.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


So that would be the biggest change. I imagine CB Sawk would start working a bit more like CB Golurk, but with Close Combat instead of Shadow Punch and no fighting/normal immunity. Scarf Sawk would benefit from immunity to (sometimes priority) Thunder Wave. That's neat. As for the current metagame, I'd imagine Sawk's usage skyrocketing. Only Alomomola could stop the beast, and not by switching in. There actually aren't a whole lot of flying Pokemon in NU that can take a hit from Sawk. If it resists fighting, it doesn't resist Ice Punch/Stone Edge. Between those four moves, there is literally nothing in NU that Sawk doesn't have neutral effectiveness on. Levitating ghost types would have a better time against the Sturdy-using Sawk, but I imagine that practically every Sawk trainer would go for Mold Breaker to hit more things with STAB Earthquake.

tl:dr - Everyone has a Sawk. Everyone has a scarfed Swoobat, Dodrio, Charizard, Swanna, Jynx, or Rotom-S. No exceptions.
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 136-162 (40.84 - 48.64%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Tangela on the other hand can live it and at has a super effective STAB versus it.

0 SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sawk: 204-242 (70.1 - 83.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So really, Tangela would become the main go-to wall in NU. However, with the others less useful, would this mean that Scolipede and Primeape would rise more (actually, Scolipede in general could work well with Sawk now as they can easily fuck over whatever tries to wall the other - unless I'm forgetting something). Dare I say NU becomes even more offensive - or would the other walls still have a use to stop Scolipede/Primeape/everything else?
 
Actually Drifblim could see more usage with Sawk becoming Ground/Fighting: It's immune to both it's STABs and can fire off STAB Acrobatics in return.
 
What if the elemental monkeys recieved Flash Fire, Storm Drain and Sap Sipper, respectively?

While Rapidash does exist in NU, it tends to be more physical and reliant on its excellent physical coverage. Nasty Plot Simisear can release immensely powerful Fire Blasts and can switch in on Will-O-Wisps as well.

Simipour would be great with all the Water-types running around, and Storm Drain's Sp. Attack boost would make it threatening enough even without Nasty Plot.

Simisage would have the worst kind of boost, but an immunity to Leech Seeds and powders is great enough as it is.
 
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