Metagame Tier Shift

Can someone enlighten me why Chansey (A Rank) was better than Blissey despite having an exact movepool? Thank you very much
 

Jrdn

Future manager of The Algophobic Fearows
is a Pre-Contributor
Tier Shift going into omwc has some problems I think i'd like to address. The way the meta is currently structured, balance, the most widely used archetype among most tiers, OM or not, is nigh unviable, unless you're playing against someone else using balance. There are several reasons for that:

1) Cheese Offense coming in the form of Weather. Rain, Sun, HAIL, (honestly i havent seen sand, it makes sense that it would be the least viable of the 4) are so INSANELY broken. ZU, PU, and NU mons toiling away in standards now get ludicrous boosts to go along with their synergistic abilities make them ridiculously fast powerhouses.

For example: Beartic: 482 Attack, 558 speed under hail - Exeggutor, 471 Special Attack, 578 speed under sun or Victreebell with 135/130 Attack/Spa split with access to growth and hits 598 speed without a positive nature - Too many swift swimmers to count.

Tons of these mons have boosting moves that makes then even more fearsome. SD on Beartic, Growth on Victreebell, Shellsmash on plenty of swift swimmers, and now they'll start living hits because of their defence boosts. Gorebyss has a 145/105 defense split now. Beartic 120/120 split with 95 hp, etc. This is by far the number 1 reason TS is where balance goes to die.

2) Stall: This is sort of a weird one. idk if it's actually stall's doing that causes balance to lose, or merely the significant amount of resources balance needs to dedicate towards combatting my first reason that gives stall a leg up on balance. I have a feeling this is the case, since Stall tends to not struggle vs Balance, which really should not be the case. I don't really feel stall needs to be nerfed atm, just felt like it played a role in balance sucking in a weird way.

Proposed bans: Weather summoning abilities is the most logical option for me. I know some people think just banning the Chloro, Swift Swim, Slush Rush, Sand rush(?) would be enough. And it very likely could fix everything, but there would still be some broken guys around. Solar Power Charizard as an example can 2hko an AV thickfat hariyama which sports a 144/90 HP/SpD split. That's a yikes from me.

Lastly, non-related to this whole thing. Ursaring has to fucking go lol. It's dumb as hell. 90/115/115 defence split with 170 attack and guts... come on now. There are more creative ways to beat bulky teams than using this. It's BROKEN AS HELL.

Anyway I just wanted to create a discussion about this before omwc goes up so we can see some interesting games that aren't dominated by lame cheese.
 
1) Cheese Offense coming in the form of Weather. Rain, Sun, HAIL, (honestly i havent seen sand, it makes sense that it would be the least viable of the 4) are so INSANELY broken. ZU, PU, and NU mons toiling away in standards now get ludicrous boosts to go along with their synergistic abilities make them ridiculously fast powerhouses.
this is partly true, the only problematic form of cheese when it comes to weather would be sun but if i were to rank them it would be (sun>>>rain>>hail>>>>>>>sand) in that order
i do believe sun is broken and needs to be banned/suspected in some form, i have been discussing this for some time now, action will be taken soon
however when it comes to the other forms of weather they are nothing compared to sun and the impacted it has on the meta.

For example: Beartic: 482 Attack, 558 speed under hail - Exeggutor, 471 Special Attack, 578 speed under sun or Victreebell with 135/130 Attack/Spa split with access to growth and hits 598 speed without a positive nature - Too many swift swimmers to count.
beartic(or hail in general) isnt that great nor should it be compared to sun in anyway other than being another form of weather. there are dozens of mons who can easily deal with hail in general on all forms of playstyles though ho has its issue with hail but those issues are the same with weather in general. sun in general has too much to deal with everything and there abusers are all gaining that fat 40+ stats, they have too much coverage across the board which makes sun the problem and not hail or rain. back then clamperl was killing every mon at +2 and couldnt be revenged no matter what, this was the pinnacle of weather and the worst it has been since damp rock/ deepseastone was banned, we had no answers and no counterplay to rain back then and now rain is no where near that level of ability atm.
huntail/gorebyss/carracosta/barbacle/poliwrath/omastar/kabutops all have counterplay and they are all used outside of rain as well none of these are on the same level as sun. dont loop all the weathers together.

Tons of these mons have boosting moves that makes then even more fearsome. SD on Beartic, Growth on Victreebell, Shellsmash on plenty of swift swimmers, and now they'll start living hits because of their defence boosts. Gorebyss has a 145/105 defense split now. Beartic 120/120 split with 95 hp, etc. This is by far the number 1 reason TS is where balance goes to die.
balance is fine, been using balanced all my life and never had these problems. only broken stuff was sun/victreebell where i had to run specific counters for and had to build against. common stuff like av king/av audino/ resttalk guzz/ sigi/swoobat/drampa and alot more all shut down weather in general. the only problem is victreebell on sun and sun's influence on teambuilding as whole nothing is on par with those atm.

2) Stall: This is sort of a weird one. idk if it's actually stall's doing that causes balance to lose, or merely the significant amount of resources balance needs to dedicate towards combatting my first reason that gives stall a leg up on balance. I have a feeling this is the case, since Stall tends to not struggle vs Balance, which really should not be the case. I don't really feel stall needs to be nerfed atm, just felt like it played a role in balance sucking in a weird way.
not sure about this one, stall isnt in a good position right now and it never really has been since the hp nerf. stall rn gets 6-0ed by throh or any good team built around throh and this doesnt even need to be explained. only very specific stall builds are viable atm and stall cant be spammed as much as it used to be in the past, its pretty obvious. im not sure why ur saying balance is bad or its sucking away when in fact its stall that has lost all of its quirks and counterplay to pretty much every offensive mon. swoobat wastes 90% of stall builds by itself and throh has gotten alot more leeway thanks to the hp nerf and how it doesnt lose to every fairy and only certain fairies beat it now. like there's nothing that points to balance being "dead" or "dying" due to weather and stall. 90% of teams in snake were pretty much balance outside of 1 person using stall once in snake which was myself. unless u have some sort of statistics that im missing, im entirely confused about this statement as a whole.

Proposed bans: Weather summoning abilities is the most logical option for me. I know some people think just banning the Chloro, Swift Swim, Slush Rush, Sand rush(?) would be enough. And it very likely could fix everything, but there would still be some broken guys around. Solar Power Charizard as an example can 2hko an AV thickfat hariyama which sports a 144/90 HP/SpD split. That's a yikes from me.
yes that is the most logically move, banning weather summoning abilities and only allow directly summoning the weather, this allows the tempo to be alot easier to adjust to because u cant stop someone from harding into victlobell and clicking growth. along with banning heat rock as well and the other rocks that boost the duration of weather.


however, before omwc begins changes will happen and its likely to be decided quickly. im sure a quickban will be sufficient. im grateful that someone came out and speak more opinions would be appreciated thanks!

i do believe weather as a whole has a negetive impact on the metagame rn but each weather has a different impact and i dont believe that all weather are broken like sun or as limiting.
 
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provide replays of hail or beatric doing anything remotely on par with sun at an high level, beatric(hail) and Victreebell(sun) arent a 1 to 1 comparison at all. in fact beatric is the only mon on hail that is considered good and the only build for hail and sun has so many variations its crazy. dont act like they are on the same level when hail has never been on that level to begin with. nothing about beatric changes while its in hail but speed, all of its counters and checks stay the same.
 

G-Luke

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I do not think weather on a whole is banworthy or broken. Beartic is a good cleaner but faces similar problems that it faces with in standard in that it would rely on Hail which isn't a top tier playstyle by any means, and realistically doesnt overwhelm balance.

Sun though, I can understand. Traditionally the way to go about tackling Sun is to pack checks like Flareon, but after the HP nerf it has seen better days, while sun in general has increased in popularity. A means to tackle Sun could come in the form of introducing a Heat Rock ban, which gives teams more counterplay without permanently ashing the viability of mons like Ninetales or Torkoal in the same vein as a Drought ban.

Regarding Ursaring, it has been the face of anti stall for a long time, but I never found it to be outright broken, thanks to fat teams that it normally walks over losing steam to offensive playstyles which Ursaring struggles against. That being said, the situation will be monitered and if more people come out and can bring some more substantial evidence to Ursaring's broken attributes, expect results.
 
I do not think weather on a whole is banworthy or broken. Beartic is a good cleaner but faces similar problems that it faces with in standard in that it would rely on Hail which isn't a top tier playstyle by any means, and realistically doesnt overwhelm balance.

Sun though, I can understand. Traditionally the way to go about tackling Sun is to pack checks like Flareon, but after the HP nerf it has seen better days, while sun in general has increased in popularity. A means to tackle Sun could come in the form of introducing a Heat Rock ban, which gives teams more counterplay without permanently ashing the viability of mons like Ninetales or Torkoal in the same vein as a Drought ban.

Regarding Ursaring, it has been the face of anti stall for a long time, but I never found it to be outright broken, thanks to fat teams that it normally walks over losing steam to offensive playstyles which Ursaring struggles against. That being said, the situation will be monitered and if more people come out and can bring some more substantial evidence to Ursaring's broken attributes, expect results.
Ok ill start out by saying ive pretty much not touched TS since gen 6, mostly cos I haven't been a fan of the fact that it was made to be basically Extreme Tier shift (an Ubers based omotm) boosts wise because the leader at the time was worried that it might not get enough "hype" thus making it in my opinion, fairly uncompetitive. I think omotm's by nature fit the broken stuff for "hype" model, because they aren't made to be balancable enough to be competitively viable, as much as they are meant to be cool with lots of broken shit that attracts ppl in the month that they are accessible on the main server. TS never was intended to be an omotm so therefore shouldn't have catered to this crowd anyways imho, the point of the meta was to make the non-ou mons just as viable, not to make them Ubers level. Like ets was at least an Ubers meta game, which this isnt, so now its like ur the biggest idiot on the planet if ur using OU or UU mons, cos all the PU and NU mons have bst's of like 650+. I hope TS learns from this and next gen decides on more sensible boosts, cos I (and pretty much all the other oms players I talk to) much much preferred the old gen 6 boosts, and furthermore if that had carried over id actually be confident that TS woulda been up there with the other perms this gen and a staple in the big tours.

But regardless of my personal disagreement with the changes made to TS this gen, we are in a position where TS is one of the metas in OMWC, one of the biggest om tours of the year played by most of the best om players, and at the moment TS is a looooooong way away from hitting the balance levels of the other 5 oms in the tour. I personally dont think its actually possible to balance TS with the current boosts, but it can be improved from the state it is in right now. I know for a fact that im not qualified to speak extensively on this meta, cos I simply have 0 experience playing it pretty much, aside from a couple tours room tours where I won by spamming sun and oricorio. However, I am a pretty competent competitive oms player, and have generally been able to build, play, and theorise in other oms that aren't the ones I main to a still pretty decent level, and therefore decided to try and build a bit for TS and camo before this omwc started..... and ran into some roadblocks pretty damn quickly.

My biggest issue: Ursaring
I think in any balanced or even somewhat balanced meta, stall and balance should be viable. Therefore the proof that TS is nowhere close to that, is that stall literally is impossible to build. Whilst im not overly experienced in the meta, I do pride myself in being now quite decent at building stall in most oms, and I find it quite fun to try and construct a stall team from scratch. I did not have fun trying to build TS stall. I literally spent ages with my team trying to come up with a reliable ursaring check on stall and we were unsuccessful. This bitch is genuinely impossible to check defensively. Any non-resist is clean 2kho'd by facade, and its not even close. Like avalugg, a mon which after the ts boosts has 95/224 physical defences, gets obliterated: 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO, 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, and thats the fattest non-resist I could actually find. Not to mention if rocks are up, ur just straight up royally fucked. This means ur only real defensive counterplay options are: rock/steel/ghost. And you cant run rock+steel dual types cos then cc is sending you to the nearest parallel universe. Normally in an ou meta game where ur looking for a normal resist that can cope with fighting moves too, ur looking at skarm. Well if that was you, think again cos ursaring says fuck you to skarm: 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 131-154 (39.2 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO,252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 150-177 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, with the ability to sd too. Like the only skarm set that stands a chance is counter, so you roost off the damage, and you counter kill it even if it sd's cos of sturdy.... but again this is fairly risky, and leaves ur skarm at 7% best case scenario and it also just makes ur skarm ridiculously passive.... and odds are ur opponent in omwc isnt an idiot, so therefore he plays it slow and gets rocks up.... cos close combat is a guaranteed 2kho after rocks. All the other rock or steel types do even worse, cos they dont even have reliable recovery like skarm. Like fucking mega aggron with filter doesn't come close to evading the cc 2kho.

So ok, ur tired of seeing facade and close combat murder your team.... so you do the sensible thing and go for a ghost type...... oh wait ursaring also gets crunch and play rough as coverage options. Here are the calcs vs the bulkiest ghost types in the meta: 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Doublade: 190-224 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 178-210 (55.6 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 214-254 (70.6 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. . Fun right?

And the worst part is, this is just all in the effort of finding a mon that evades the 2kho from ONE mon, not even dealing with the rest of the issue which is killing said mon. Like because of the boosts, as Jrdn said, ursaring gets 90/115/115 defences, making it actually really annoying to kill..... and if ur building stall u cant really afford to whittle it down, cos this bitch gets swords dance, and if that goes up for free its literally a wrap. Like for example, in my head the first thing that came to mind was a ghost type with foul play.... it doesn't work: 0 Atk Dusknoir Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 124-146 (32.2 - 38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage, 0 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 186-219 (48.4 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage, I wasnt able to find a single way to reliably even hard ct this one mon on stall, and thats honestly insane. Like I was delving into colbur shenanigans and counter skarm in desperation, even looking at msab + shed, just to try and make my stall remotely viable and thats super sucky. Like ive come to the conclusion that the only way to deal with this mon without delving into ridiculously niche ct's that are useless in every other matchup, is to basically sack and revenge.... which doesn't work on stall.

So overall, ursaring might not be the best mon in the meta, but its certainly up there with the most limiting mons team building wise imo, and any single mon which can cause this much of an issue should be banned imho. I was gonna mention a couple other things but honestly jrdn made all those points better, and hes actually played the meta more than me too, so I won't embarrass myself any more than I already have talking about a meta which I have 0 experience in. Was just tryna contribute positively to this meta before omwc, cos id rather not see a bunch of complaining about how a week came down to TS which is too unbalanced and uncompetitive. We have more than enough complaining in oms as is.
 
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The Ability Drought and the item heat-rock has been quick banned

During and before the OM snake draft, Sun has been really due to its insane flexible and easy to use set ups such as ninetails and torkal who can both provide amazing offensive and defensive support on any build of sun whether its semi-sun or full sun. As bulky as TS may be its far to easy to gain the require momentum to access drought in battle. furthermore the item, heat rock extends these turns to 8 which vastly increases the impact in battle. For example, Victreebell has shown to be one of if not the best sun abuser as its typing and stats easily allow this mon to growth on its counters/ checks and proceeds to sweep even without sun support, without the easy access to drought and heat rock. The momentum and tempo in battle will be easier to adjust to in the future even with sunny day support, the amount of speed given from its ability made it very difficult to revenge kill as well. im sure they are tons of sun abusers that i can mention but victreebell has shown the most results in the most recent tours.


Until more evidence and more results come to the surface proving that they are broken, they will be looked at in the future. rain has already been limited with the damp rock ban in the past which has served to balance rain significantly compared to what it was in the "clamperl" meta, the Suggestion of banning rain is unlikely since it hasnt been that great since, nor has it performed on the same levels as sun.

Hail falls in the same category as rain but to a much hugely degree, its not that good nor will it be considered for a suspect or quickban to
hail as stated above has one good mon and thats beatric, a single mon. sun has 12 mons that can all dish out insane amounts of damage and coverage across the board.

Sand is weird, lots of there mons are pretty weak overall and most of there abusers dont have enough coverage as the other forms of weather or rather there coverage isnt great in TS where our walls vary in many ways.


I think in any balanced or even somewhat balanced meta, stall and balance should be viable. Therefore the proof that TS is nowhere close to that, is that stall literally is impossible to build. Whilst im not overly experienced in the meta, I do pride myself in being now quite decent at building stall in most oms, and I find it quite fun to try and construct a stall team from scratch. I did not have fun trying to build TS stall. I literally spent ages with my team trying to come up with a reliable ursaring check on stall and we were unsuccessful. This bitch is genuinely impossible to check defensively. Any non-resist is clean 2kho'd by facade, and its not even close. Like avalugg, a mon which after the ts boosts has 95/224 physical defences, gets obliterated: 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO, 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, and thats the fattest non-resist I could actually find. Not to mention if rocks are up, ur just straight up royally fucked. This means ur only real defensive counterplay options are: rock/steel/ghost. And you cant run rock+steel dual types cos then cc is sending you to the nearest parallel universe. Normally in an ou meta game where ur looking for a normal resist that can cope with fighting moves too, ur looking at skarm. Well if that was you, think again cos ursaring says fuck you to skarm: 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 131-154 (39.2 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO,252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 150-177 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, with the ability to sd too. Like the only skarm set that stands a chance is counter, so you roost off the damage, and you counter kill it even if it sd's cos of sturdy.... but again this is fairly risky, and leaves ur skarm at 7% best case scenario and it also just makes ur skarm ridiculously passive.... and odds are ur opponent in omwc isnt an idiot, so therefore he plays it slow and gets rocks up.... cos close combat is a guaranteed 2kho after rocks. All the other rock or steel types do even worse, cos they dont even have reliable recovery like skarm. Like fucking mega aggron with filter doesn't come close to evading the cc 2kho.

So ok, ur tired of seeing facade and close combat murder your team.... so you do the sensible thing and go for a ghost type...... oh wait ursaring also gets crunch and play rough as coverage options. Here are the calcs vs the bulkiest ghost types in the meta: 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Doublade: 190-224 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 178-210 (55.6 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 214-254 (70.6 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. . Fun right?

And the worst part is, this is just all in the effort of finding a mon that evades the 2kho from ONE mon, not even dealing with the rest of the issue which is killing said mon. Like because of the boosts, as Jrdn said, ursaring gets 90/115/115 defences, making it actually really annoying to kill..... and if ur building stall u cant really afford to whittle it down, cos this bitch gets swords dance, and if that goes up for free its literally a wrap. Like for example, in my head the first thing that came to mind was a ghost type with foul play.... it doesn't work: 0 Atk Dusknoir Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 124-146 (32.2 - 38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage, 0 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 186-219 (48.4 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage, I wasnt able to find a single way to reliably even hard ct this one mon on stall, and thats honestly insane. Like I was delving into colbur shenanigans and counter skarm in desperation, even looking at msab + shed, just to try and make my stall remotely viable and thats super sucky. Like ive come to the conclusion that the only way to deal with this mon without delving into ridiculously niche ct's that are useless in every other matchup, is to basically sack and revenge.... which doesn't work on stall.

So overall, ursaring might not be the best mon in the meta, but its certainly up there with the most limiting mons team building wise imo, and any single mon which can cause this much of an issue should be banned imho. I was gonna mention a couple other things but honestly jrdn made all those points better, and hes actually played the meta more than me too, so I won't embarrass myself any more than I already have talking about a meta which I have 0 experience in. Was just tryna contribute positively to this meta before omwc, cos id rather not see a bunch of complaining about how a week came down to TS which is too unbalanced and uncompetitive. We have more than enough complaining in oms as is.
Not sure where this "stall is dead" movement is coming from but it most certainly isnt dead, sure stall has been targeted and hit the most due to most recent nerfs and changes, there's only specific forms of stall that can be used stall which was used Om snake successfully if anything the meta is more "balanced" that you make it out to be because based on recent tours and usage its most certainly not true.

Onto ursaring, like im not sure how you are going about this, there's tons of mons that do the same job ursaring can do and even better depending on the team comp throwing calcs around doesnt represent the situation accurately at all, there's more points towards throh that it limits teambuilding significantly and throh is the main reason why stall has to innovate so much to tackle it. however, ursaring is a probably the best immediate wall breaker we have right now, whether its broken or not hasn't been shown or been evident as yet. maybe in the future in gen 8 it will be considered but now the main focus is weather(sun). its just odd how people who haven't played ts in years are now coming out and saying ursaring is broken/impacts teambuilding when all the time i have been playing ts ursaring has never been that way nor has ever done this in any tour.

The Immortal
have fun in wc
 
So... is Alolan Sandslash considered bad in Hail?
Yeah, 100 atk is less that 130, but it's faster and has different options than beartic, movewise. (Knock off, Iron Head from the top of my head)
Also, its Def is higher that Beartic's and steel is a good typing, so it can switch in some stuff instead of dying by being looked at.
EDIT: Yeah, 140 and 170 atk, of course. No one is responding? C'mon, will you really pass the opportunity to call me an idiot and explain to me why i'm wrong? Yall human, you can't resist that temptation!
 
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The Immortal

They Don't Want None
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Other Metas Leader
Tier Shift has been selected to end the generation as OM of the Month. As you know, gen 8 is nearing and that means TS will be out of action for several months. With that in mind, and with WCoOM ongoing, we wanted all the metagames playable for this final month.

For those wondering about the 2nd OM of the Month, as soon as we have gen 8 data, a beta format of some sort will be added.
 
I was going to do an "all gen 5 mons that get TS buffs" but i would literally die if I did that because like all of them are below OU so I don't know what I'm supposed to--



HELL YEAH!!! IT'S GEN 5 TIME!!!!!

(yeah these are probably outclassed but. let me have fun)


New stats: 60/85/90/130/120/110/595
Butterfree gets Compound Eyes Sleep Powder which is always nice, but its movepool is...okay? I mean, not every regional bug gets Psychic or Shadow Ball.

oops.


New stats: 70/75/70/100/85/100/500
Venomoth doesn't get those bIG BOOSTS so it's kinda underwhelming. I guess Tinted Lens is nice......
This is the best thing I could come up with:
Venomoth @ Buginium Z
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Sludge Bomb
- Psychic


New stats: 75/120/135/130/140/90/690
Bellossom gets Strength Sap, and even though its coverage is not the best thing since you only have two move slots, it has big stats and might have a niche somewhere.


New stats: 60/110/90/140/90/105/595
Butterfree, but less tanky and without a good Flying-type STAB. Just use Butterfree.


New stats: 60/90/110/90/130/105/585

It gets Compound Eyes!!! And can't do anything with it because this thing doesn't get Sleep Powder or Stun Spore. Just use Venomoth.


New stats: 70/100/102/140/122/120/654
Masquerain has lots of potential. It can set up Sticky Web, it has Intimidate, and its coverage is pretty good since it learns Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. Pretty fun to use.


New stats (Plant Cloak): 60/99/125/119/145/76/624
New stats (Sandy Cloak): 60/119/145/99/125/76/624
New stats (Trash Cloak): 60/109/135/109/135/76/624

Sandy and Trash Cloak have better Physical coverage, so I don't see why you'd run Quiver Dance. Plant Cloak is decent but not the best, so you're better off using some other Quiver Dancer.


New stats: 70/134/90/134/90/106/624
yooo whats up everyone adrive here actually i dont remember what adrive says but who cares
mothim sucks. use butterfree or something.


New stats: 70/90/105/140/105/120/630
Remember those "how to beat pokemon white" tutorials which consisted of catching a Petilil with Own Tempo, grabbing the Sun Stone in Nimbasa before level 22 so that it learns Quiver Dance and then once you get to the Elite 4 it oneshots literally everything with Petal Dance? Yeah, that's what Lilligant feels like here. Steel-types? Suck my Hidden Power Ground. Nothing can stop Lilligant. Probably.


Volcarona is in OU already.


New stats: 80/82/80/120/80/119/561
You might be thinking that "ughh this is just butterfree" but NOPE it gets Compound Eyes Hurricane. Bask in its absolute glory. This plays a lot like Butterfree but spamming Hurricane is better than anything Butterfree can do.


New stats: 60/75/80/115/90/144/564
Ribombee is kinda like Masquerain since it can set up Sticky Web, but it has a not so good movepool. However, I disagree this thing is FAST. Too bad its best ability is Shield Dust. I mean, it could've gotten something better.


Pheromosa is in Ubers.


New stats: 60/135/109/105/119/120/648
Arbok. Coil, Coil, Gunk Shot. This thing has a good amount of moves and also Intimidate, which allows it to set up on Physical mons. Really interesting overall.


New stats: 85/116/104/85/95/130/615
I mean, it can do the Frisk Trick thing, which is a pretty cool gimmick I guess, and it also has a very good amount of moves. Might be a bit too frail on the Special side, but it can definitely do some stuff.


New stats: 100/110/110/105/105/85/615
Dunsparce has...good stats?? I mean, it can do the scummy Body Slam/TW + Air Slash combo just like Togekiss, but Togekiss can do the exact same thing while having better Speed. Dunsparce gets a lot of moves as well and definitely appreciates setting come Coils up.


New stats: 73/140/100/140/100/105/658
Seviper is...pretty good...I think. It's basically Arbok but it doesn't have Gunk Shot which means you can run a mixed set with Sludge Wave and stuff which is probably not the best thing because it gets Poison Jab but like........¯\_(ツ)_/¯


New stats: 95/80/99/120/145/101/640
Don't use Physical Milotic unless you want to lose a bunch of games. Run Special like everyone else.


New stats (Huntail): 55/144/145/134/115/92/685
New stats (Gorebyss): 55/124/145/154/115/92/685

Both prefer going for Shell Smash actually, so like...what's the point. I guess Coil Huntail has its uses, but Shell Smash is better.


New stats: 60/100/115/100/115/123/613
I mean, feel free to use Coil Servine, but I'm pretty sure Leaf Storm is better. Too bad I'm just words on a screen and can't force you to use Contrary Leaf Storm and just have to hope that you listen to me.


Serperior is OU and outclassed by Servine.


New stats: 85/155/120/145/120/90/715
I mean, it's ranked S+ in PU, so it can do whatever the hell it does there with even better stats. Since I don't caare about Eelektross I will turn this into Gen 5 propaganda. Gen 5 best. Gen 5 best. Gen 5 best. Gen 5 best. Gen 5 best. Gen 5 best. Gen 5 best. Gen 5 best. Gen 5 best. Gen 5 best. Gen 5 b


New stats: 54/120/91/81/105/135/586
10%!Zygarde is probably not the best Coil user since it learns DD, but oh well it learns Coil so I'm listing it here. Can I just turn this into Gen 5 propaganda again? No? I don't care. Gen 5 bes


New stats: 50/115/200/105/65/90/625
I mean, Cloyster is pretty much the default Shell Smasher mon when you say Shell Smash. It doesn't need an explanation, it does its thing and kills stuff.


New stats: 70/100/165/155/110/95/695
Shell Smash + Weak Armor. Slap a Focus Sash on it and you're good to go. Just be careful with priority users.


New stats: 60/90/160/130/120/70/630

Shell Smash + Weak Armor. This combo is so stupid it's funny. Slap a Sash on it, etc etc.


New stats: 70/125/180/125/110/60/670
I mean, it has a Speed stat now. too bad drought is banned lmaooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


Its evos are better Shell Smashers. Use them instead.


New stats (Huntail): 55/144/145/134/115/92/685
New stats (Gorebyss): 55/124/145/154/115/92/685

It's like, the one thing they're good at. Duh.
I put them together because they have the same movepool (kinda)

the only noteworthy thing hentai gets is sucker punch and i guess gore fetish likes to use psychic.


New stats: 70/145/165/105/115/85/685
SHELL SMASH + WEAK ARMOR. Shell Smash + Sturdy??? Yeah, both are pretty nice.


New stats: 74/148/173/123/105/72/695
Shell Smash + Sturdy. I mean, most Shell Smashers already use Shell Smash sets so like... I'm kinda just wasting my time. Oh well.


New stats: 72/125/135/74/106/88/600
This one has Shell Smash. No crazy ass ability. I mean, I guess Tough Claws is pretty nice??


New stats (Meteor): 60/90/130/90/130/90/590
New stats: 60/100/60/100/60/120/500

Shell Smash. Just make sure you live in order to deactivate Shields Down. Slap a Sash on it if needed.


New stats: 60/118/175/131/125/76
What can Turtonator do again? Besides Shell Smash, I mean. Oh well, just press Shell Smash and sweep.

i crave death. will never do this again
(just kidding i'll just wait for the next omotm)


bye

EDIT: forgot torkoal existed oops
 
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We need to rank Mega Abomasnow it's super versatile, bulky, attacky, whatever your team needs it kinda has it (minus a fire resist but psh who needs those anymore)
 
You know, Ampharos-Mega is kinda cute.

:Ampharos-Mega:
90/115/125/185/130/65 stats
To put that in comparison, the highest SpA stat (without TS calculations) is MMY with 194. 185 is even higher than POgre and MRay.
Are there any Pokemon viable in TS with a higher SpA?
 
i've lost twice since i made this team
stoutland and lycanroc take out the speedy stuff and the rest just tank and ohko/2hko everything
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7tiershift-1005153681

Gigalith @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion

Relicanth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Double-Edge

Gastrodon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 144 HP / 112 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Clear Smog
- Ice Beam
- Surf

Hippowdon @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Toxic
- Slack Off

Stoutland @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Retaliate
- Return
- Psychic Fangs
- Wild Charge

Lycanroc @ Lycanium Z
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Drill Run
- Fire Fang
- Taunt


Gigalith @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion

Relicanth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Double-Edge

Gastrodon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 144 HP / 112 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Clear Smog
- Ice Beam
- Surf

Hippowdon @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Toxic
- Slack Off

Stoutland @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Retaliate
- Return
- Psychic Fangs
- Wild Charge

Lycanroc @ Lycanium Z
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Drill Run
- Fire Fang
- Taunt
 
Last edited:
Komala with choice band Sleep talk and last resort is a beast, how is it not ranked?

I know it is walled by ghosts, but everything else that takes a neutral hit will be ohkod or 2hkod in most if not all cases.

Will send calcs later
 
With all that has been said about PU Pokemon getting amazing boosts, I'm surprised no one's brought up Lapras. In current TS mechanics, it gets amazing stats - 130/125/120/125/130/100 and a BST of 735. Water Absorb is a highly useful ability; with an Assault Vest and investment in bulk this thing can take a lot of punishment. The only thing that is missing is a genuine recovery option, which may be provided with Leftovers. I'm still unsure about the item, but this set has got me a moderate amount of success so far.
Lapras @ Assault Vest
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 104 HP / 76 Def / 252 SpA / 76 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
Freeze-dry provides perfect coverage against water types and a OHKO against most Gastrodon variants,which are otherwise frustrating for Lapras. Hydro Pump 2HKOes most electric and fighting types, with Ice Beam for Grass types.
 
Just wanted to share the team that I've been experimented and having decent success few months ago up to this day.


Druddigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Glare
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
- Spikes
- Power Whip

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Hex

Raichu-Alola @ Aloraichium Z
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Psyshock
- Grass Knot

Tapu Koko @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Nature's Madness
- Dazzling Gleam
- Defog

Dodrio @ Choice Band
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Quick Attack
This team aims to stack hazards and facilitate an Alolan Raichu sweep, and it is monstrous when supported with Tapu Koko's Electric Surge.

Druddigon is the rock setter, with Mold Breaker ignoring Magic Bounce and Glares many offensive mon. I went for Ferrothorn as my Spikes setter for its ability to chipped down spinners like Komala, Dhelmise and Claydol to name a few, with Iron Barbs. It can also uses many Grass mon like Tangela that the Electric lures to set-up hazard. I went for Power Whip for Waters. Jellicent is a great partner to Ferrothorn in terms of resistance. I think I've been overprepped against Rain, and I haven't even encounter one :/. Raichu-Alola is the main star of this team, Stoked Sparksurfer is absurdly powerful with NP boost, but Terrain alone can one shot some mon without a boost.
252 SpA Raichu-Alola Stoked Sparksurfer vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Slaking in Electric Terrain: 424-499 (96.1 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

I went for Psyshock mainly for some random AV user or Blissey
+2 252 SpA Raichu-Alola Stoked Sparksurfer vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Electric Terrain: 636-748 (89 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery (oh, welp)

Anyways, I went for Grass Knot for ground, particularly Quagsire and I still run Timid over Modest because I shouldn't overly reliant on terrain to outspeed things, notably against the likes of Zydog, Noivern or Ribombee. Tapu Koko is a great partner to AlolaChu mainly because of Electric Terrain. Because I build this mainly for Raichu sweeping, I chosed Terrain Extender for the Terrain to last longer.Dazzling Gleam is important as I often used this to offensively check Dragon and Dark (mostly Sucker Punch user). Nature's Madness chips down walls, which can be put into KO range of Raichu. For the last slot, I'm still having trouble thinking what should I used on the last slot, so I temporarily put Band Dodrio. I've been trying to replaced it, with Vivillon for another sweeper or AV Hitmonchan for insurance against Ursaring (Not just Mach Punch it, but EVed to be faster than it) and I've been thinking that I need some advice for the last slot.
 
Has anyone made a good Granbull set... will my big dumb dog ever find its purpose
If you really want to try him out, he's not completely trash. With max investment in speed + the Quick Feet boost, he out-speeds base 150 mons. That's a pretty great speed tier to be in, and his 160 Attack is obviously solid. Play rough can handle things like Throh and Intimidate is a fantastic ability. He's a pretty serviceable mon, so go ahead and give him a try.

Granbull @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Play Rough
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
 

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