Tiering in National Dex

[ChrisPBacon]

Hi all - the statements below are my own and do not reflect the views of the entire council yada yada, rest of the council is welcome to give their takes

The Problem:
National Dex is currently in a somewhat dire state, yet, unlike previous dire circumstances such as the infamous baxcalibur-bloodmoon era, there doesn't seem to be a clear solution. Rather than a certain few Pokemon that stand out for being wildly broken, the metagame as a whole is so incredibly powercrept and concentrated towards offense being by far the most prominent playstyle in high level tournaments. (see invitational, in r8 and r9 alone 9/14 games brought could be classified as heavy offense or ho, and all but one of those non-offense teams lost. Furthermore, stall is almost never used, and fat balance and semistall is virtually extinct) This I believe is reflective of a fundamental problem within NatDex as a whole right now, where the threats are simultaneously too strong, too varied, and require such constrictive counterplay to build a consistent defensive team capable of withstanding the more prominent threats. As a result, the resultant tends to skew towards offense-on-offense mirrors, which although fine on occasion, leads to far more variance, matchup fishing, and inability for proper skill expression, and frankly simply being stale.

The Solution:
Although banning Darkrai was a solid first step in taking action against this problem as a threat which mandated constant offensive counterplay and revenge killing by having next-to-no defensive counterplay, I believe one ban alone is insufficient to actually solving the problems in the tier. With PL coming up, personally I believe that a more balanced metagame should overwhelm the need for input via suspect test given the time constrains, and hence wish to persuade the community in hopes for a 'mini-kokoloko' quickban voting slate on Ogerpon-W, Raging Bolt, and Gouging Fire. While there are other Pokemon I could see being looked at and would likely support in a further attempt to de-escalate the tier, these three are what I believe are the easiest to get behind and support based on how heavily they demand counterplay and their ability to bypass such counterplay with little effort on their end.



Yes, Ogerpon Wellspring had recently been suspect tested, and escaped such test on a narrow ban margin. However, the margin was so narrow, and continued complains from the community alongside recent tiering developments justify revisiting this decision. Most of the arguments from the original suspect test still stand with one key exception - the banning of Zamazenta, Ogerpon-W's best check by far and in general a major threat to the offense teams all three Pokemon find their home on. The absence of an exceptional answer which fits on all forms of playstyles and naturally threatens Ogerpon's most ideal teammates is what I believe to be sufficient basis to revisit the decision to leave it unbanned. By banning Ogerpon-Wellspring would free up defensive counterplay greatly by lessening the need for niche 'answers' (see: tangrowth) and freeing up Tera opportunities on most teams to respond to other threats instead of needing to save Tera for Ogerpon like so many teams do due to the inconsistency of natural checks (ferrothorn gets superpowered, latias, dnite, kommo play roughed, etc.)


Although these two have largely linear sets, that doesn't prevent their response Dragonium Z sets from being vicious offensive threats as both mid-game wallbreakers and late-game cleaners. Courtesy of their natural bulk and capability to accrue more than one Dragon Dance and Calm Mind respectively, respective checks such as Landorus-T, Alomomola, Ting-Lu, and Ferrothorn can be blown apart by the Z-Move. Their ability to stray from their Z-move sets and become excellent users of Tera further accentuates their ability to dictate their counterplay while often being difficult to predict the set on team preview. Their innate variance and threat potential limits the use of defensive counterplay, and hence many teams resort to shaky checks along with a heavy emphasis on offensive counterplay, which only further restricts bulkier teams as they gravitate towards 'weaker' forms of revenge killing such as Mega Lopunny, which gets taken advantage of by Raging Bolt's priority and Gouging Fire's bulk being able to withstand Fake Out comfortably. Hence, their ban offers a much needed reduction in the power of offense teams and provides balance additional room to breathe.

Conclusion:
While what I proposed is what I personally believe should happen, I'm open to alternate ideas, as well as criticism as to how I'm perhaps completely wrong from another competent player. Regardless, I believe the community believes that change should occur in the tier, and wish NDPL fast approaching, I would love to see take some action to quell the variance in the tier as it becomes developed toward a more balanced state, rather than wait for NDPL to potentially break the tier even further like last year. If the tier does stabilise over the next few months, resuspecting the aforementioned Pokemon could always occur, but for now, I believe immediate, swift action, given enough support for the quickbans of these targets, would be the best way to move on in tiering National Dex going forward.

Thank you for your time, all inputs are appreciated.

 

[sh0shin]

TL;DR: Tera is still the problem IMHO.

in a metagame where both Tera and Z moves are legal, I don't see where the line ends with banning offense mons. I could see Dragonite being next on the chopping block if all three of these were to be banned, for instance, or Iron Valiant just for its "guess the set or lose a check" nature as you have stated is a problem with O-WS on offense. it's conjecture, but so is saying banning those 3 in particular would make Natdex great again.

while I agree the tier is certainly wonky, I don't think it's possible to "fix" it if overwhelming offense is the problem. I find it weird we can't sus or revisit Tera after another DLC dropped, but imma keep playing it regardless of how it changes, or doesn't. that said, gen 8 ND is markedly different, with a blend of strategies being viable since there are more well-defined checks and counters, along with the meta rewarding "smart" play like aggressive doubling on both offense and defense, which I personally find more engaging than clicking Tera Poison or Steel on my Fairy-weak sweeper, or Tera Psychic Lele to break through a typical 3HKO check, etc., or for that matter, spamming suicide lead HO with 5 brokens stacked.

as long as I'm beating a dead horse, let's not forget the like 20-30 fresh accounts who during the Tera re-test signed up just to get reqs, vote, and leave, guaranteeing no supermajority (~54% ban vote I think). we haven't seen or heard from most all of those accounts/gamers since.

for context, my only accolades are doing a couple suspect tests and participating in NDWC one time. and I obviously don't like Tera. so, take it with a grain of salt.

if banning mons is the only way forward, so be it. word wall for nothing.

 

[Sami]

By banning Ogerpon-Wellspring would free up defensive counterplay greatly by lessening the need for niche 'answers' (see: tangrowth) and freeing up Tera opportunities on most teams to respond to other threats instead of needing to save Tera for Ogerpon like so many teams do due to the inconsistency of natural checks (ferrothorn gets superpowered, latias, dnite, kommo play roughed, etc.)

A lot of "defensive answers" to Ogerpon-W have their own issues as well, which in turn makes Ogerpon-W much more ridiculous to deal with on the defensive side, while it's still a mission to deal with offensively thanks to its typing and Tera Water giving it +1 SpD, effectively removing would-be answers like Choice Scarf Tapu Lele (especially if it lacks Psyshock), Tornadus-T and Booster Energy Iron Valiant. Defensive Pokemon often lose to Ogerpon-W for multiple reasons:

• Coverage Moves easily removing them from play ( vs Superpower; vs Play Rough)
• Ogerpon-W muscles through with Terastalization and/or boosts ( )
• The counterplay is very prone to being chipped down by hazards, status or damage ( )

All of this encourages teams to play more offensive to actually deal with Ogerpon-W, since its "checks" are flimsy and inconsistent, especially against hyper-offense teams where a check would be needed to check multiple threats (like Ferrothorn for Raging Bolt AND Ogerpon-W leading to it getting overwhelmed, even with Alomomola support, which is quite passive and abusable by both of those two). Removing Ogerpon-W would reduce the need to use these niche mons like Tangrowth, since actually good defensive Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Toxapex and Mega Venusaur aren't torn to shreds by Ogerpon-W anymore, significantly boosting their longevity, making them better defensive staples, and reducing the need for the tier to use offense and hyper-offense as a reliable playstyle.

 

[Illouri]

i agree with sh0shin and sami, and the fact that we now have dlc pokémon available to the toolkit (which, funnily enough, all of these pokémon come from) should warrant a third suspect test.

ignoring that and just going based off what you proposed, i actually am on board with this. i think waterpon and gouging fire are quite strong and while i don’t believe they’re broken, their presence in the tier becomes over-centralizing. seeing some form of action taken against these pokémon would be a breath of fresh air. of course, i’m not a council member so i have no idea what goes on in terms of deciding which pokémon to quickban or suspect. regardless, i believe chris has the right idea and should be considered within the council members.

 

[sealoo]

I think this idea of a QB slate on Ogerpon-W, Raging Bolt, and Gouging Fire is frankly ridiculous, and Im very glad i would have the ability to actually participate in that vote while the rest of the community’s best bet is saying they do/dont like them in this thread.

Quickbans should be reserved for things that are actively broken, not just some good mons that apply pressure in the builder. I could see another Ogerpon-W suspect, although I would personally vote dnb. But this mon really hasnt done anything to make me think it warrants a quickban atp, yet alone Gouging/Bolt.

TLDR: Dont quickban anything, suspect Ogerpon-W and move from there. Tier is not in an emergency state.

 

[Adriyun]

I think this idea of a QB slate on Ogerpon-W, Raging Bolt, and Gouging Fire is frankly ridiculous, and Im very glad i would have the ability to actually participate in that vote while the rest of the community’s best bet is saying they do/dont like them in this thread.

Quickbans should be reserved for things that are actively broken, not just some good mons that apply pressure in the builder. I could see another Ogerpon-W suspect, although I would personally vote dnb. But this mon really hasnt done anything to make me think it warrants a quickban atp, yet alone Gouging/Bolt.

TLDR: Dont quickban anything, suspect Ogerpon-W and move from there. Tier is not in an emergency state.

I agree. These Mons remind me of Restrictive but not quite broken Mon, Gholdengo. It was suspected due to how restrictive it was in building, but it wasn’t broken all right. I think Bolt, Gouging Fit this description. I think we should do a Ogerpon-W resuspect Asap. I think quick banning a pokémon who originally got suspected isn’t a great idea, even if Zamazenta was in the tier. Personally think A QB is too much. I do also think the tier is in a “bad” state, it’s pretty sloppy and boring. Would NOT say it’s in a state of emergency where 3 QB’s are needed on pokémon who aren’t out right broken. Thanks(likewhore plz)

 

[thebestever543]

After reading through the thread and having reflected on my own thoughts of the state of our beloved NDOU tier, I’ve come to a conclusion. First, I’ll ask you to think of what an ideal version of ND looks like. It can be very general but in order to move forward, it’s important to have a better sense of direction of where we’re headed. As pointed out by various members in the community, many people are scrambling for a quick fix by suggesting bans or unbans that are only a workaround to the real issue imo. I’m sure you know where I’m going with this, so let’s not beat around the bush any longer.

My ideal version of NDOU would be a balanced mix of team diversity, healthy threats with counter play that isn’t too constrictive for builders or skilled play and lastly, something fun. Perhaps most importantly we should aim to satisfy the enjoyment of the majority player base, even if it results in unhealthier consequences to the metagame. In fact, we’ve done that by not banning Tera. However, with personal bias aside, every person I’ve spoke to about Tera over the last few months, has been opposed to it. In case you’re wondering where or who I asked, I’m not in an echo chamber or claiming anything based on one source, ND discord, room, forums and other various communities have all been in the majority of pro-ban. Even the people of this thread cannot lie to themselves about the unfortunate truth that haunts us all. Is there any hope for this tier in a metagame with tera? We can ban waterpon but many are not convinced the tier will be fixed. I think we go back to the same polarizing meta that existed during Zama meta, balance teams were very limited and HO and Stall were meta defining play styles. Ideally, they’re viable and less extreme play styles like balance, offense or fat can exist without dominating like how offense currently is.

With that being said, I’ve at least convinced myself that this tier is in dire need of rescue that can only be accomplished through a collective effort and support from both the community and council members. We need to ban tera, tiering action shouldn’t prohibit or limit our ability to make decisions or not make decisions that will improve the health of the tier. After the second tera suspect, we made strides to engage more with the Chinese community by including them in surveys and more community discussions to ensure for healthier and more informed suspects in the future. I can’t account for every individual but with the help of surveys, community engagement and reasonable reception from forum moderators, we can save NDOU! Main point: everyone is sick of tera and thinks it’s unfun, uncompetitive, unhealthy. Why are we letting ridiculous imaginary rules dictate what’s best for the tier. They’re not even written down from what I know, just what has been repeated constantly post-suspect.

Last thing, a list of all the Pokemon banned because of tera:








As well as a few others that potentially are balanced but I believe these are all relatively uncontested.

 

[Moyashi]

After reading Chris' opening post I've been just working on other things while trying to collect my thoughts on the topic and what I think needs to be done going forwards. Playing a fair amount of ladder today and trying to teambuild, even post Darkrai has helped in this process.

While it's been pointed out already by multiple people, the metagame is stagnant and dull. It's intensely difficult, unreasonably so, to build defensive teams at this point in time. One of the reasons for this is that there are a number of formidable threats in the tier. , , are the ones that tend to come up, but also , , , SD , , , not to mention spearheading rain offense to impressive levels, , .. even rarer picks like can be a headache to deal with for defensive teamstyles. Some of these aren't traditionally an issue, but because they're all in the tier at the same time, prepping for every one of these is pretty much impossible.

Many of these pokemon also tend to have specific counterplay which is awkward to navigate when trying to build teams that aren't HO/heavy offense. While only some of these mons are truly broken on their own, they exacerbate one another and make one another inadvertently more difficult to handle. Building defense is a chore at best, but akin to having a birth of cactuses out of your asshole at worst (props to whoever gets THAT reference). It's unreasonably difficult to build with consistency for defense, so often it's easier to build and load offense which has just resulted in the tier becoming offense on offense slugfests, HO and the like plaguing the tier. I find this also to result in a volatile tier. Of the worst offenders-


I voted to ban this last time and would happily do so again. It's by far the worst contributors to the issue, overly oppressive into defensive teams that aren't running Toxapex/Mega Venusaur or a janky grass/dragon core. Have fun running a grass that's not Ferrothorn though because they lose to Bolt as well as other offensive threats. Standard SD+Stabs+Superpower is enough to trounce most of the defensive side of the tier and far too restricting.


These two are paired together simply for being quite similar in their function. Both abuse Z, Booster and Tera well, bother are fat boosting threats with versatility and power that make them difficult to handle without specific pokemon. These two help propel offense with their bulk and power, the former of which also complicates revenge killing them as their typing and bulk don't offer much in the way of reliable priority to pick them off. They're too fat for MegaLop fake out to work well and they resist other forms like Rilla's Grassy Glide and MZor's Bullet Punch while not really fearing HSamurott's Sucker Punch either.

These are the ones off the top of my head, but many big offensive threats are exacerbated in conjunction with these mons like Mega Medi and Iron Valiant and more. And on top of all of this, Tera adds another complex layer of variance that heavily contributes to this problem as well. Allowing many of the aforementioned threats to handpick counterplay and lead to frustrating gameflows where your prep for one set of a dangerous threat becomes largely null because they brought the other Tera you couldn't prep for. Now I am aware, or as far as I am aware, it's very unfeasible to expect a third Tera suspect at this point but it's worth pointing out at least for the discussion.

Regarding what I think should happen moving forwards, I understand that Quickbans like what Chris suggested in the OP are not exactly standard, and I respect Sealoo's view on the matter. At least, action on Wellspring is something that I feel should be taken in the near future, but I also feel that individual one by one suspects of Wellspring and possibly Bolt/Fire might be too slow a process individually. Thus I do somewhat lean more towards Chris' idea of a kokoloko style vote on the three problem mons to start.

Tldr; there is far too much volatility because of the oversaturation of powerful pokemon, making building defense consistently near impossible and thus pushing players towards offense. Leading to a stagnant tier of offense v offense mirrors and HO around the corner. At least, take action in some form on Wellspring.

 

[ChrisPBacon]

Fwiw if ppl are scared to start quickbanning, a sensible alternative would be to revisit the Zamazenta ban. Many of the complaints which led to its ban stemmed from the idbp set being too difficult to handle, a sentiment that frankly only applies to offense teams - which rely on Tera Ghosting and techs like Earth Power Landorus, whereas balance can more reasonably fit a pex/gking/torn/latias to more reliably check it. In the absence of the idbp's set to steal games, Zamazenta becomes a relatively manageable threat - yes, it can use its switches to bring in a wallbreaker such as Tapu Lele, but this is little different to something like Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, which has the added benefit of U-Turn in exchange for less immediate speed. Unbanning Zamazenta would actually improve the tier by giving the dominant offense teams rn something to meaningfully fear both in the builder and ingame, and I think if the community can accept that 1) Offense is broken rn and 2) Zamazenta is only a truly restrictive wincondition against greedy offensive teams which have become restrictive in their own right in its absence, there could be an opportunity to improve the tier without resorting to multiple bans.

Also serves as a response to sealoo's and adriyun's post, if u feel the tier isn't in a immediately dire state rn then hopefully a minor fix & suspect test process shld be enough to curb the power levels to a decent amount

 

[FayaWizard]

Fwiw if ppl are scared to start quickbanning, a sensible alternative would be to revisit the Zamazenta ban. Many of the complaints which led to its ban stemmed from the idbp set being too difficult to handle, a sentiment that frankly only applies to offense teams - which rely on Tera Ghosting and techs like Earth Power Landorus, whereas balance can more reasonably fit a pex/gking/torn/latias to more reliably check it. In the absence of the idbp's set to steal games, Zamazenta becomes a relatively manageable threat - yes, it can use its switches to bring in a wallbreaker such as Tapu Lele, but this is little different to something like Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, which has the added benefit of U-Turn in exchange for less immediate speed. Unbanning Zamazenta would actually improve the tier by giving the dominant offense teams rn something to meaningfully fear both in the builder and ingame, and I think if the community can accept that 1) Offense is broken rn and 2) Zamazenta is only a truly restrictive wincondition against greedy offensive teams which have become restrictive in their own right in its absence, there could be an opportunity to improve the tier without resorting to multiple bans.

Also serves as a response to sealoo's and adriyun's post, if u feel the tier isn't in a immediately dire state rn then hopefully a minor fix & suspect test process shld be enough to curb the power levels to a decent amount

I think it's a little ridiculous to unban a Pokemon right after we banned it, and then banned another Pokemon directly because of Zamazenta's ban. While I voted No Ban on Zamazenta's suspect, that ship has sailed, and we should be striving to find the next step in the metagame, not take a step back.

 

[red fintans]

zama got banned like a week ago though, why would we just bring it back? your logic makes sense but from a community standpoint it would feel like the council is undoing what was voted by the majority. having taken a long break this is basically an outsider perspective, but i do feel that the community takes their voice seriously, and being overridden by the council will not warrant positive feedback. even retesting it would just feel awkward
from a gameplay and meta perspective i cant really say much, but if i understand that offense is basically the only viable playstyle then we just have the same problem as ndubers in that banning and banning will end up as the only solution and we really dont want that
ultimately NDPL is coming up and tours are either the result of metagame changes or the spark to eventually change things, so either we race to see if the meta can be fixed before then or let it sort the meta out

 

[Hydrametr0nice]

As FayaWizard and red fintans pointed out, unbanning Zamazenta would be going against the community's vote. However, quickbanning Ogerpon-W (or even suspecting it right away) would be similarly problematic.

 

[Pokedom10]

it's been really frustrating lurking these last few months and watching the tier contort itself into knots, yet somehow do the bare minimum to untangle itself. it feels like every time i check in on the discussion thread it's some variation of "we banned X finally, when do we suspect Y?" (or, yknow, m-bannette posting). at this rate it's time for bigger action than this post alludes to.

1. you need a wholesale purge. it's more than just three mons. it's the tier's entire philosophy. as moyashi pointed out above there's at least 10 other pokemon that are impossible to account for at the same time in the builder. even if some of those are not immediately problematic it's the combination of all of the above that is making this as unbearable as it is. it would be better to look into getting rid of all of them then continuing to point the finger at them one at a time.

2. if the above isn't feasable for whatever reason, then you need to at the VERY LEAST TRY to test a tera-less metagame. the root of the problem is tera. the root of the problem has always been tera. until you actually look at what the metagame looks like without tera, you're spinning the hamster wheel ad infinitum. so many of the problematic mons over the last few months were the problems they were because of tera. half the current banlist is there because of tera. the three pokemon highlighted in this post are pushed over the top because of tera! i understand the fallout from the tera suspect means that tera is "off the board" for changes, but it's been a full year and nothing has fundamentally changed for the better. the bed you choose to lie in doesn't have to be full of nails. take another look.

Fwiw if ppl are scared to start quickbanning, a sensible alternative would be to revisit the Zamazenta ban

3. respectfully, No. no no no no. you do not get to post this thread and then in the same thread advocate for an unban like this. constant flip flopping of priorities is a waste of everyone's time. do you actually want this tier to improve? what do you want to change? because along with this other council members in this thread are saying they'll vote no ban for the three you put up anyways. doing posts like this feels like bait to get more eyes on the tier. because outside of the general discussion thread activity has been piss poor for a few months now. that this post was allowed to stay up on the darkrai thread really says it all.

4. if you're not gonna make changes you should put the gen 8 natdex ladder back online.

i'm sorry if this comes off as accusatory or attacking or standoffish, but frankly watching not just this tier but the entire tiering generation devolve into this kind of spectacle over refusing to make neccessary, sweeping changes in fear of alienating their playerbase has got me feeling some kind of way. if this gets me banned, i mean, i get it, but i barely post anymore as is so w/e.

 

[Hydrametr0nice]

2. if the above isn't feasable for whatever reason, then you need to at the VERY LEAST TRY to test a tera-less metagame. the root of the problem is tera. the root of the problem has always been tera. until you actually look at what the metagame looks like without tera, you're spinning the hamster wheel ad infinitum. so many of the problematic mons over the last few months were the problems they were because of tera. half the current banlist is there because of tera. the three pokemon highlighted in this post are pushed over the top because of tera! i understand the fallout from the tera suspect means that tera is "off the board" for changes, but it's been a full year and nothing has fundamentally changed for the better. the bed you choose to lie in doesn't have to be full of nails. take another look.

Yes, Terastallization increases the volatility of battles. However, anyone who thinks that simply banning Terastallization would reduce the offensive orientation of the meta is delusional. Just look at the top 40 Pokémon—they would remain the top Pokémon even in a meta without Terastallization, fulfilling the same roles they are currently performing.

Current NatDex OU roster

+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1 | Landorus-Therian | 25.588% |
| 2 | Heatran | 13.887% |
| 3 | Raging Bolt | 13.847% |
| 4 | Ferrothorn | 13.626% |
| 5 | Tapu Lele | 13.259% |
| 6 | Tapu Koko | 13.060% |
| 7 | Alomomola | 12.367% |
| 8 | Iron Valiant | 11.668% |
| 9 | Great Tusk | 11.640% |
| 10 | Dragonite | 11.562% |
| 11 | Corviknight | 11.045% |
| 12 | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike | 10.823% |
| 13 | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 10.690% |
| 14 | Iron Crown | 10.428% |
| 15 | Slowking-Galar | 9.807% |
| 16 | Gliscor | 9.736% |
| 17 | Darkrai | 9.685% |
| 18 | Scizor-Mega | 9.138% |
| 19 | Zapdos | 8.674% |
| 20 | Iron Treads | 8.395% |
| 21 | Kyurem | 7.682% |
| 22 | Gouging Fire | 7.664% |
| 23 | Volcarona | 7.546% |
| 24 | Charizard-Mega-Y | 7.423% |
| 25 | Zamazenta | 7.007% |
| 26 | Rillaboom | 6.997% |
| 27 | Samurott-Hisui | 6.960% |
| 28 | Hatterene | 6.731% |
| 29 | Garchomp | 6.584% |
| 30 | Kartana | 6.562% |
| 31 | Clodsire | 6.438% |
| 32 | Diancie-Mega | 6.429% |
| 33 | Pelipper | 6.425% |
| 34 | Moltres | 6.046% |
| 35 | Toxapex | 6.010% |
| 36 | Glimmora | 5.855% |
| 37 | Garganacl | 5.773% |
| 38 | Lopunny-Mega | 5.502% |
| 39 | Ceruledge | 5.326% |
| 40 | Mawile-Mega | 5.319% |
| 41 | Banette-Mega | 5.287% |
| 42 | Swampert-Mega | 5.147% |
| 43 | Ursaluna | 5.118% |
| 44 | Archaludon | 5.082% |
| 45 | Tyranitar-Mega | 4.859% |
| 46 | Serperior | 4.775% |

I'm not saying it wouldn't help alleviate players' frustrations, but the overall meta would not significantly change.

 

[Oculars]

While a lot of the mons mentioned such as and cause huge problems for fat/balance teams, they cause even more problems for offense teams that dont have consistent checks, removing bolts priority from the tier and gouging fires sweeping ability with tera only opens up more slots for HO mainers like myself to fit breakers and bully fat teams even harder. While it may seem counter intuitive handling these mons on offense while slotting breakers is harder than it looks and banning them will only lead to a more HO dominant meta. The root of our tiers problems is and always has been tera and trying to kokoloko these three will only open up more offensive slots to punish bulkier teams.

 

[Pokedom10]

Yes, Terastallization increases the volatility of battles. However, anyone who thinks that simply banning Terastallization would reduce the offensive orientation of the meta is delusional. Just look at the top 40 Pokémon—they would remain the top Pokémon even in a meta without Terastallization, fulfilling the same roles they are currently performing.

Current NatDex OU roster

+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1 | Landorus-Therian | 25.588% |
| 2 | Heatran | 13.887% |
| 3 | Raging Bolt | 13.847% |
| 4 | Ferrothorn | 13.626% |
| 5 | Tapu Lele | 13.259% |
| 6 | Tapu Koko | 13.060% |
| 7 | Alomomola | 12.367% |
| 8 | Iron Valiant | 11.668% |
| 9 | Great Tusk | 11.640% |
| 10 | Dragonite | 11.562% |
| 11 | Corviknight | 11.045% |
| 12 | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike | 10.823% |
| 13 | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 10.690% |
| 14 | Iron Crown | 10.428% |
| 15 | Slowking-Galar | 9.807% |
| 16 | Gliscor | 9.736% |
| 17 | Darkrai | 9.685% |
| 18 | Scizor-Mega | 9.138% |
| 19 | Zapdos | 8.674% |
| 20 | Iron Treads | 8.395% |
| 21 | Kyurem | 7.682% |
| 22 | Gouging Fire | 7.664% |
| 23 | Volcarona | 7.546% |
| 24 | Charizard-Mega-Y | 7.423% |
| 25 | Zamazenta | 7.007% |
| 26 | Rillaboom | 6.997% |
| 27 | Samurott-Hisui | 6.960% |
| 28 | Hatterene | 6.731% |
| 29 | Garchomp | 6.584% |
| 30 | Kartana | 6.562% |
| 31 | Clodsire | 6.438% |
| 32 | Diancie-Mega | 6.429% |
| 33 | Pelipper | 6.425% |
| 34 | Moltres | 6.046% |
| 35 | Toxapex | 6.010% |
| 36 | Glimmora | 5.855% |
| 37 | Garganacl | 5.773% |
| 38 | Lopunny-Mega | 5.502% |
| 39 | Ceruledge | 5.326% |
| 40 | Mawile-Mega | 5.319% |
| 41 | Banette-Mega | 5.287% |
| 42 | Swampert-Mega | 5.147% |
| 43 | Ursaluna | 5.118% |
| 44 | Archaludon | 5.082% |
| 45 | Tyranitar-Mega | 4.859% |
| 46 | Serperior | 4.775% |

I'm not saying it wouldn't help alleviate players' frustrations, but the overall meta would not significantly change.

you cannot post these numbers with dragonite in the top ten and tell me with a straight face that tera doesn't change how the tier plays.

even if getting rid of tera doesn't change offense's impact, less volatility is always and forever a good thing, and working to get rid of that instead of throwing darts at which offensive threat is too much is going to make the tier healthier long term. if there's something still too good about offense without tera? work to get rid of that! suspecting and resuspecting offense threats and expecting the needle to move on its own is just going to prolong this cycle. the tier has been sleepwalking like this for months now, it's no wonder people are tired.

 

[Runo]

4. if you're not gonna make changes you should put the gen 8 natdex ladder back online.

just for the record Gen 8 NatDex still has its ladder up

 

[Lightniong]

Now, i don’t usually do posts like this, I just usually do those one and done cover why a Pokémon is good and stuff, but I just want to just jump on the Tera horse cause it’s what’s going to shape the tier and stuff.

Anyway, my current stance on this is that Tera has a minimal effect on the metagame, and banning offensive threats is the way to go. Now, I want to start off with Ogerpon-W because this is the poster child of the main reason why this metagame is so offensively-focused to begin with. This needs to go, I think we all know why this needs to go, so I’m not gonna go into detail about that, but it’s way to restraining in the builder, and in an actual game it can just kinda win easily against it’s checks/counters because most of them either die to coverage or gets chipped down by hazards and boosts.

Now, the Tera part of this, I feel like banning these offensive threats would be better for the course of this tier going forward, and not banning Tera as a whole, as banning Tera would have a minimal effect on the metagame, and we would probably be having this exact same discussion about Gouging Fire and Raging Bolt promoting offense. Let’s take a look back at the list of National Dex OU pokemon and see if they actually would change with Tera.

List

As of August 2024
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1 | Landorus-Therian | 23.600% | Defensive Pokémon, offensive sets barely uses Tera or uses Z-crystals
| 2 | Dragonite | 16.920% | Would probably take a viability hit in a Tera less metagame, not by much though
| 3 | Iron Crown | 16.852% | Defensive Pokémon, offensive sets would take a slight hit in viability
| 4 | Great Tusk | 15.895% | Barely uses Tera, would take no hit in viability
| 5 | Darkrai | 13.586% | Banned
| 6 | Heatran | 13.269% | Defensive Pokémon
| 7 | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 13.157% | Uses Tera often, wouldn’t take a hit in viability in a Tera-less metagame
| 8 | Raging Bolt | 12.739% | Not including Dragon-Z sets, woudn’t take a hit in viability
| 9 | Corviknight | 12.528% | Defensive Pokémon, bulk up sets can be annoying with Tera, but can be easily stopped
| 10 | Alomomola | 12.511% | Defensive Pokémon
| 11 | Tapu Koko | 12.275% | Most sets use Z-crystals, the ones that don’t barely use Ter
| 12 | Gouging Fire | 12.248% | The Banworthy set is Dragonium-Z, non-crystal sets would take a hit in viability
| 13 | Tapu Lele | 11.581% | Uses tera moderately, woudn’t take a hit in viability without Tera
| 14 | Ferrothorn | 11.430% | Defensive Pokemon
| 15 | Iron Valiant | 11.314% | Would probably take a hit in viability without Tera, not by much though
| 16 | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike | 10.615% | Woudn’t take a hit in viability in a teraless metagame
| 17 | Glimmora | 9.766% | Barely uses Tera
| 18 | Slowking-Galar | 8.993% | Defensive Pokémon
| 19 | Scizor-Mega | 8.973% | Can’t Tera
| 20 | Iron Treads | 8.529% | Barely Uses Tera
| 21 | Gliscor | 8.283% | Defensice Pokémon, SD sets don’t need Tera to function, woudn’t take a hit
| 22 | Kyurem | 7.870% | Woudn’t take a hit in viability without era
| 23 | Samurott-Hisui | 7.755% | Barely uses Tera, dosen’t need it
| 24 | Diancie-Mega | 7.414% | Can’t Tera
| 25 | Zapdos | 7.375% | Barely uses Tera, dosen’t need it
| 26 | Garchomp | 7.185% | Most Offensive sets use Z-crystals, defensive Pokémon otherwise
| 27 | Ursaluna | 6.914% | Dosen’t need Tera to function, woudn’t take a hit in viability
| 28 | Clodsire | 6.760% | Defensive Pokémon
| 29 | Rillaboom | 6.751% | Dosen’t need Tera to function
| 30 | Moltres | 6.680% | Defensive Pokémon
| 31 | Volcarona | 6.511% | Would probably take a hit in viability slightly wothout Tera
| 32 | Charizard-Mega-Y | 6.399% | Can’t Tera
| 33 | Hatterene | 6.350% | Dosen’t Need Tera
| 34 | Ceruledge | 5.859% | Woudn’t take a hit in Viability
| 35 | Tyranitar-Mega | 5.851% | Can’t Tera
| 36 | Banette-Mega | 5.799% | Can’t Tera
| 37 | Lopunny-Mega | 5.343% | Can’t Tera
| 38 | Kartana | 5.343% | Woudn’t take a hit in viability
| 39 | Toxapex | 5.123% | Defensive Pokémon
| 40 | Pelipper | 4.742% | Defensive Pokémon most of the time
| 41 | Garganacl | 4.683% | Defensive Pokémon, would take a hit in viability without Tera slightly though
| 42 | Ogerpon | 4.441% | Would take a big hit in viability without Tera
| 43 | Serperior | 4.432% | Would take a moderate hit in Viability without tera
| 44 | Archaludon | 4.412% | Woudn’t take a hit without Tera
| 45 | Ting-Lu | 4.239% | Defensive Pokemon
| 46 | Tyranitar | 4.054% | Fake Mon, woudn’t take a hit in viability anyway
| 47 | Slowbro | 3.652% | Defensive Pokémon
| 48 | Medicham-Mega | 3.618% | Can’t Tera
| 49 | Swampert-Mega | 3.511% | Can’t Tera
| 50 | Blissey | 3.506% | Defensive Pokémon
| 51 | Dondozo | 3.504% | Defensive Pokémon
| 52 | Hoopa-Unbound | 3.441% | Woudn’t take a hit in viability
| 53 | Mawile-Mega | 3.274% | Can’t Tera
| 54 | Tornadus-Therian | 2.868% | Mostly uses flyinium Z, woudn’t take a hit in viability though
| 55 | Excadrill | 2.817% | Would take a slight hit without Tera,
| 56 | Iron Moth | 2.789% | Would take a hit in viability without Tera

So, as you can see, most offensive Pokémon would either be unaffected by a teraless metagame, or take a slight hit, and even then, you can see that the Pokémon that would be most affected by Tera being banned is near the bottom of the list in usage, and I know that ladder isn’t the most reliable source, but it’s a source nontheless. Plus, most defensive Pokémon would use Tera defensively to become an emergency check to these same offensive Pokémon. For example, the use of Tera Dragon to counter Ogerpon-W. This was probably very rushed because Im currently in a car and I‘ve been in this car for about 16 hours, but I hoped I‘ve showed at least some of you where I’m coming from.

 

[Kyo]

In Defense of Ogerpon-Wellspring



There's a lot of discussion around this mon being a broken element of Natdex OU. It got suspect tested about 4 months ago and avoided a ban by a relatively narrow margin. In the eyes of some players, this is the broken element in the tier and if it just gets banned everything will be all well and balanced. I voted no ban on Ogerpon-Wellspring in the last test, and I want to properly voice my thoughts on why it is not broken nor will banning it cause much significant change in leading the tier away from offense which seems to be a popular sentiment.

***

Limitations of Ogerpon-Wellspring in Natdex OU:

Ogerpon-Wellspring is not what I would consider a "versatile" mon when compared to common flexible options on offense like Iron Valiant or Volcarona. And when I say it's not flexible, I mean that in both an offensive and defensive sense. It really only has the 1 free moveslot to work with where you can pick a coverage option or status like encore/taunt. By default, it's locked into tera water as an offensive buff but mostly lacks the ability of Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, etc. to use defensive tera for setup opportunities, unpredictability, and to deter revenge killing. It's also unable to speed boost and has no priority (to my knowledge nobody has truly shown any potential for trailblaze or grassy glide sets to become viable) which means 350 is a hard cap on what you need to surpass for revenge killing. By my count, this is slower than around 10-12 reasonably viable un-scarfed mons and every scarfer in the tier and outside of it as scarfers slower than 234 don't really exist in any capacity. This isn't inclusive of any mons that have their speed boosted by weather conditions. The only relevant priority options that Ogerpon-Wellspring is resistant to are aqua jet and bullet punch.

Tera-specific counterplay in Natdex OU:

Because of Ogerpon-Wellspring's relative inflexibility, defensive options and defensive tera types aren't forced to jump through many hoops outside of acknowledging superpower and play rough coverage. Additionally, these mons usually want some way to immediately threaten or status Oger on switch in to deter taunt/encore sets. With superpower coverage being probably the most common Ogerpon-Wellspring set, tera dragon is used very frequently as a defensive option. In and of itself, this could be seen as overcentralizing to the metagame if so many defensive mons are supposedly forced into this role. Oger doesn't exist in a vacuum however, and I often feel like players fail to appreciate that defensive tera dragon would almost certainly be used as commonly as it is regardless of Ogerpon-Wellspring being banned or not. To a lesser extent, I feel that the same is true for tera grass.

There are a handful of commonly spammed defensive tera types like fairy or steel and as the meta stands, tera dragon is one of them for so many more reasons than just the existence of Ogerpon-Wellspring.

***



Zard-Y is more or less the definitive balance breaker of OU tiers since its release. There are a number of mons that you could put the label of balance breaker on. Zard-Y is the perfect example because of its immense damage output, small pool of reliable counters, and passable speed tier that outruns most defensive mons. In other words, if you're building a balance team, this isn't a mon you can afford to ignore. There are limited counters to a mon like Zard-Y, and many balance teams won't try to hard counter it though any bulkier team should at least consider having some insurance against it. Using defensive tera dragon on reasonably bulky mons like Glowking, Mola, Toxapex, Garganacl, etc. is one of the easiest ways to accomplish this.

This is really where the crux of my argument comes from, and it's not just limited to Zard-Y. If you want to stop tera grass giga drain Volcarona or leaf storm hp fire Serperior, you can use tera dragon. If you want your bulky water type to switch into a resistance to its two weaknesses in grass and electric, you can use tera dragon or tera grass. If your offense team needs a quick resistance to tera water scarfed Urshifu which is threatening a clean sweep regardless of your intimidates or dual screens, you can use tera dragon or tera grass. When you run into the rain matchup and you're not using a particularly bulky water resist, those tera types are flexible options to handle banded Barraskewda without having to actually commit more resources in the builder towards beating rain via a dedicated mon. It's a way for your Toxapex to match up better into Mega Swampert by removing the eq weakness and for your Corviknight or Skarmory to not lose the 1v1 due to a waterfall flinch while you're stalling for rocky helmet chip. It enables Glowking to resist both rain and sun while chilly reception pivoting thus making weather disruption significantly easier.

I guess my point is that there are more reasons than I can even list here why I would want to use tera dragon defensively and yes even tera grass in more limited circumstances. You're not forced to use these tera types. If you just build a grass or dragon type mon into the team to begin with then that often frees up tera water as an option on a different mon instead which is equally a fantastic defensive tera. If you haven't done any of this and you haven't taken any consideration for rain, sun, scarfed Urshifu, scarfed Kartana, etc. then to be honest you probably haven't built a very good team to begin with. If you're forgoing dragon and grass types for only a water type as your water resist instead then you've got new issues with the most common Tapu Koko set volt switching into quark drive abusers on you and threatening a 4x hp ice on Lando-T or Gliscor if you try to block it. You can get away without using dragon types in Natdex OU with careful building, but it'd be ridiculous to pretend like they're not more relevant than ever even in spite of Mega Latias dropping in viability since last gen.

***

If the player base wants to lower the power level of the tier, then I understand why many are pointing fingers at Ogerpon-Wellspring, but I truly feel like it's misguided. Despite being "inflexible" Ogerpon still does what it does very competently, just not to a level that I think is broken. Moreover, I don't think that banning Ogerpon-Wellspring will really cause anything to change. Balanced and bulkier teams will still use many of the same defensive structures and tera types. Tera ghost Ferrothorn that was once dodging Ogerpon's superpower is still going to be the meta set to deal with Mega Medicham and Urshifu. Heatran is still going to use tera grass most of the time, and many bulky water types will still find value in tera dragon. Dragonite's crazy high usage on offense teams surely isn't going anywhere. A hypothetical ban on Ogerpon-Wellspring frees up tera water on Lando-T and Gliscor slightly, but to what extent? Unless you're stacking ground types, turning into a water type is way more detrimental against volt turn spamming than at least having that former-ground type as an electric resist. If you're using tera grass Lando-T, you even get to keep your ground resist which is probably one of the roles you were compressing with Lando-T in the first place.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts on Ogerpon-Wellspring that I was a little too busy to get out there during the suspect test. I'm not opposed to revisiting this mon further down the line, but I think that I would still vote no ban. Re-testing it now feels way too recent to the last test and a quickban I would say is entirely inappropriate after it passed a suspect test with the only significant change to Ogerpon-Wellspring's circumstances since being Zamazenta getting banned. In regards to Gouging Fire and Raging Bolt, I could probably get behind suspect testing either of the two if this is what most people want. I wouldn't deny that they both have a very strong presence in the meta and some questionable elements in terms of counterplay. Quick banning them just seems extreme to me. Darkrai's departure from the tier does a lot for the stability of bulky and balanced teams. The more recent claims about imbalance in Natdex OU just feel a bit overstated if I'm being completely honest. Certainly not to the point that quick banning multiple mons is the "only way to save NDPL" or whatever the case. Still, it's worth hearing what everyone thinks about these mons and the rest of the metagame. I don't make decisions singlehandedly and my opinion or anyone else's certainly isn't set in stone.

 

[Hydrametr0nice]

you cannot post these numbers with dragonite in the top ten and tell me with a straight face that tera doesn't change how the tier plays.

even if getting rid of tera doesn't change offense's impact, less volatility is always and forever a good thing, and working to get rid of that instead of throwing darts at which offensive threat is too much is going to make the tier healthier long term. if there's something still too good about offense without tera? work to get rid of that! suspecting and resuspecting offense threats and expecting the needle to move on its own is just going to prolong this cycle. the tier has been sleepwalking like this for months now, it's no wonder people are tired.

First of all, I want to clarify that my post is neither pro-Tera ban nor anti-Tera ban. I'm keeping my opinion out of this.

Secondly, regarding Dragonite, you're cherry-picking. Don't tell me that 90% of the current Pokémon would still be top-tier in a Tera-less format. All the Pokémon people are talking about—Ogerpon-W, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire—would still be top Pokémon. Raging Bolt and Gouging Fire are even abusing Z-moves. It's not Dragonite that's been ruining your fun.

Lastly, there are many instances where defensive Pokémon use Tera to overcome an offensive Pokémon that hasn't used Tera. Without Terastalization, those Pokémon wouldn't be able to check their opponents. So no, Tera isn't solely a promoter of offense. Yes, it does promote volatility.

Wanting to remove Tera and wanting to alleviate the current offensive pressure of the metagame are two different things.

If you are still not convinced, just read Lightniong's post and look at his list.

 

[Patar136]

Since I feel a lot of people are doing a good job explaining things pretty well I think I'm gonna jump in on what I have experienced.

As said by many, I believe that Tera is a double-edged sword in this power crept metagame with a lot of threats running amuck, all of which are difficult to handle offensively, especially when they can boost their attack, special attack and speed on a given turn. You think you're safe against Great Tusk because you have Corviknight with Rocky Helmet, until Charizard Y melts your steel type and forces it to tera dragon, only to now lose to offensive Great Tusk one on one. You think your Ferrothorn is gonna handle rain pretty nicely until it gets overwhelmed by Hurricanes, Close Combats and even just repeated Earthquakes and Body Presses from the staples on rain teams. You stack your stall team and can handle most of the worst physical and special attackers, until Ursaluna, mixed Kyurem, Mega Mawile and even Heatran come to ruin your day.

The point being that preparing for all of these threats at once can be difficult. I think Waterpon is the biggest nuisance with its very annoying speed tier that lets it hit 350 while being hard to OHKO in revenge unless you got Kyurem with Freeze Dry. Gouging Fire is also pretty frustrating because with Dragon Dance and sun support, it's Z moves can hit insanely hard. The only reason I don't add Raging Bolt to these trio as others have is because I think that Raging Bolt is probably the most balanced of the bunch. Does it require preparation in teambuilding? Yes. Is it very powerful? Yes. Can it overwhelm its counters with the right partners? Most certainly, but Raging Bolt has the most flaws of these three and can be dealt with as long as you build well. Really its the other two that come across as "win with brute force 50%" of the time.

As much as I like Tera for what it can do positively, I think that maybe removing Tera would cause things to stabilize somewhat as we allow more Pokemon that can function in this tier without being broken. With Tera gone, I seriously doubt that Kingambit, Regieleki, Walking Wake, Baxcalibur, Dragapult and even Sneasler would be that overwhelming. It comes from when they are too strong offensively with tera that caused them to have such warping power in the teambuilder.

Another possibility I wanna mention is that we just ban Z moves. This is probably gonna piss off some people but a lot of the arguments have Z moves as the factor that breaks a Pokemon (including the just banned Darkrai). If we ban Z moves, that could be a step to make offense less oppressive. Just some thoughts to consider.

 

[sh0shin]

I did want to clarify that we'd have to settle for a while into a Tera-less format, god willing, and that several offensive threats would still be looking at the chopping block with no random Tera Fairy/Water/whatever defensive mons to stop a sweep. by no means would offense be bad, but it would be worse off in terms of cheesy HO, Tera Water in Rain, and what have you. I do still think it'd fix many fundamental issues of balance pretty fast, and the playstyle changes would be welcome.

I also don't think I properly addressed the original post. apologies.
I think banning OWS will do, well, not a ton *for the overall meta*, per Kyo's post. And it's not just that OWS doesn't seem that sus worthy, to me, but as hidin has pointed out, for instance, you're still gonna have offense going crazy in the Rain once OWS is gone. and there's plenty of rain structures to work with. I don't think weather would necessarily skyrocket, but we'll have more rain spam for sure if it's gone. edit: great Mon, ultra splashable, but not impossible to deal with IMHO. just kind of annoyingly common so we build around it more.

Raging Bolt is kinda (edit: and I do mean kind of, since these pivots can be worn down or checked for Bolt endgame) just outplayed by common defensive guys like Lando/Gliscor once it's dropped the huge nuke and that's fine by me. Tapu Lele is also like #5 most popular in the tier or something, and both of its common sets wreck Bolt if it can't Tera. It does force some "50/50s" with both Thunderclap and guessing wtf kinda set the thing is (Z vs Tera), but it doesn't strike me as unhealthy. I also really appreciate having a viable Elec/Dragon that's bulky enough to take hits yet hits like a truck (Mega Ampharos 2.0). Edit: it's very strong and I could see why it might be worth a look, but to me it's the least problematic of the 3.

Gouging Fire I could see action just because it seems harder to prep for than Bolt. a tricky Tera + Morning Sun can ruin your day real quick if you thought it was Z or just boots offensive.

The root of our tiers problems is and always has been tera and trying to kokoloko these three will only open up more offensive slots to punish bulkier teams.

also this

 

[BananaBro_Chaos]

Honestly I'm still trying to make sense of the current metagame.

I wanna try to talk a bit about Tera. In my opinion, Tera DEFINITELY gives more opportunities to offensive mons than defensive ones. Ignoring the obvious ones like Waterpon's damage and SpDef boost and Gouging's new STAB EQ, it can be difficult for a single Tera on a defensive team to stop most setup sweepers on the other side. I've seen defensive Tera Dragon floating around in this thread, and as a person who's been trying to make Zard-Y work, I know a lot of mons love to run this. The issue is that you are doing nothing to stop the likes of Iron Valiant, Z-Paradox Beasts, and, as an even more niche mon, Kyurem. Yes, I know a stall/balance team has many mons to stop this kind of setup chain, but its concerning how defensive mons have to give up their matchup to some mons in order to wall others. On the other hand, a Terad setup sweeper/offensive mon still keeps its positive offensive matchups on defensive mons due to still having their original STABs. They can also attempt to bait out a Tera for a teammate or just to preserve their own.

One of the most common examples of Tera baiting in my games is Zard-Y and CM Raging Bolt against Alomomola. CM Bolt is strong, but it does not appreciate a Toxic from Mola. Thus, I often use Zard-Y aggressively and force out a Dragon Tera. This basically blanks Zard-Y, but now CM Bolt can Draco whenever it sees Mola instead of having to play the mind game of it Teraing or not. I know Zard-Y is not part of HO teams, but sub it out for Superpower Ogerpon-W and you have a quite common situation.

Another strength that Tera gives to offensive mons is that it gives opportunities to remove key offensive or defensive Pokemon. For example, balance teams often feature defensive mons like Glowking or Landorus-T, but they don't have much in the way of damaging certain offensive mons, such as Urshifu-Rapid. Let's assume you have a Raging Bolt and an Urshifu-Rapid on one side and Iron Valiant and Glowking on the other. With Raging Bolt and Iron Valiant on the field, the Bolt player can Tera Fairy to avoid a KO from Iron Valiant, then take a retaliatory KO with Thunderbolt, leaving Urshifu-Rapid to clean up. This is more of an issue when you consider the possibility of Z-Draco and what play you have to make in that situation. My point is that, with these key offensive pokemon removed from Balance teams, offensive pokemon from the HO side have an easier time setting up or cleaning up.

This is a very speculative post; I'm just trying to make more sense of the meta while sharing my thoughts about Tera. Everyone else has made great points and I do expect me to make some sort of mistake/oversight. However, I feel like Tera is the issue, not because mons like Bolt or Gouge cannot function without Tera, but because Tera gives them another possibility to consider. Even mons like Dragonite, who people always focus on as a Tera abuser, has found success with Z-Dragon in the absence of the Z from the Paradox Beasts. Removing Tera doesn't fully negate it, it just makes it more manageable due to only having one set. I am still kind of concerned with Balance's matchup against HO, because as I said, Tera does give Balance a lot of wriggle room agaisnt HO. Despite this, I still think we should suspect Tera at this current stage.

Feel free to correct me on any mistakes/issues/inconsistencies

 

[hidin]

Not writing a lot this time:
- Wellspring should definitely be looked at sometime in the next month or so; if not it should be heavily prioritized.
- I don't support any kind of action on Raging Bolt but Gouging Fire could be suspect worthy.
- The idea of Wellspring's departure not affecting Tera Dragon Pokemon is a flawed argument and misses the entire point of why people thinks its not healthy. The oppression it adds to the meta and said counterplay to it just so happens to conflict with elements that are common, and in some cases it is just downright obnoxious. Why would you want to keep it if there's so much net negatives it has?
- Do not retest Zamazenta.
- I do not have an opinion on Terastal and not so sure why it's being discussed in a thread that's aiming at Pokemon specifically.
- The tier as of now is something I don't like, things are pretty linear and if there's any opportunity we can take to fix that I'd take it in an instant.

 

[sh0shin]

as the Tera-hating red herring enjoyer and heel/moron of the thread I'd like to be upfront about this, and you can ignore my yapping otherwise:

• I agree on only suspecting GF and OWS, not RB
• happy to ban OWS if that's what people think is ruining ND
• happy to be proven wrong -- seeing a stabilized yet varied tier with just 2 more bans would be great
• almost any action at this point is welcome just to shake it up IMO

more tera yap

that said, the "linear nature" is the reason Tera is brought up.

- I do not have an opinion on Terastal and not so sure why it's being discussed in a thread that's aiming at Pokemon specifically.
- The tier as of now is something I don't like, things are pretty linear and if there's any opportunity we can take to fix that I'd take it in an instant.

Tera was kept in the tier a little arbitrarily and without revisits despite DLC dropping. it seems like plenty of people agree with the general sentiment that Tera is the root issue in making the tier unsavory. on the other hand, arguably we are all falling prey to hivemind mentality by saying "offense is the only good structure" as if a tautological reality.

in my experience, the tier is not in a great spot due to most games being 20-30 turns max of offense vs anything, and action on Tera would change the nature of the tier entirely without having to go through short lists of splashable brokens every few months. the process feels a lot more arduous than coming to the conclusion that maybe, just maybe the pokemon themselves aren't the issue, but the overall meta and the mechanics it entails are.