Tiering in National Dex

[Sputnik]

I don't know if a mini Kokoloko specifically is justified here, trying to strong arm a different, more balanced meta purely because PL is on the horizon isn't necessarily good practice, and I don't think fatter playstyles are completely awful either (I haven't been back very long, so take this with a grain of salt). I do believe that Tera is problematic, as I always have, but that's not really the point for this thread and tiering that mess is a whole new can of worms that I won't get into here.

All that being said, I do think that Gouging Fire should actually be the priority for tiering action. Waterpon is quite stupid, to be sure, and the combination of the two in the same meta puts massive strain on the builder. (I don't really think Raging Bolt should be in this conversation mostly due to it's comparatively lacking speed tier and linear coverage, although it's definitely very good) However, Waterpon is a rather linear threat that, while fast, is also generally locked into its given speed tier. As Kyo stated, revenge killing it is quite doable with several common offensive Pokemon, as well as various Choice Scarfers. Meanwhile, defensively checking it, while challenging and straining in builder to an extent, isn't impossible if you're willing to go that route. Additionally, the unique inflexibility of it's Tera means you kinda know what's coming, making it (in my opinion) far easier to prepare for.

On the other hand, Gouging Fire is an extremely powerful offensive threat in a similar vein as Waterpon, but it is far more threatening in terms of its flexibility. The ability to run Tera or Z moves mean you have multiple different ways this can threaten you; Tera Ground giving it three extra STAB moves, Tera Flying is interesting as a way to deter revenge killing from options like Scarf Lando or Gliscor trying to take a hit, and Tera Poison is a funny way to shut down Alomomola (this is worse though). On the other hand, Dragonium Z, as stated, is extremely challenging to answer defensively consistently. You get one thing wrong vs Gouging and it can sweep your entire team. Not to mention it's very possible to run this with Sun, which makes it even more ridiculous and can give Protosynthesis boosts to Z sets (which is rly stupid). I also think Morning Sun and Substitute sets are underexplored in how they abuse certain slower builds. Quite frankly, its hard to adequately answer all of Gouging's options with whats available to us in the tier at this time, and, crucially, virtually all of them are more than viable and fit on many different team styles.

The fact that Waterpon is another absurd physical breaker that we must contend with, and the fact that both of them will often fit on the same teams, only furthers the above issues. However, I do believe we should consider tiering action on Gouging before Waterpon, as I believe it is equally as restricting if not more so in the builder as it stands right now.

TL;DR Don't quickban anything, suspect test Gouging before Waterpon, don't touch Bolt, Tera is probably the issue anyway if y'all wanna reopen that can of worms.

 

[Runo]

I don't really have an interest in writing a redundant essay on Gouging, Bolt, and Waterpon since I agree with many of the points posted already one way or another.

Now on the topic of Tera Suspect 3, I think any discussion on it is going to be setting us up for disappointment unless we can get confirmation from tiering admins that we are even allowed to have a 3rd suspect. The vocal discontent is great and I support it but it's meaningless if admins aren't going to play ball.

 

[Blaze]

I’m going to share my thoughts here as well. While I do not feel anything is quickban worthy here. I definitely feel ogerpon should be looked at. Why? This Mon depending on its slots can be quite the nuisance for common defensive cores on bulky offense and balance. Its presence definitely warps the meta and that cannot be understated. As Hidin pointed out all the things that are running tera dragon right now that’s more than likely for ogerpon (still can lose of play rough however). Ultimately I think it comes down to also seeing it through the lens of others like what oculars mentioned despite favoring another playstyle over another. As for goug the more I play it especially with slower teams which I have been lately it’s really obnoxious to deal with. Moreover, my experience dealing with gouging fire the dragon z sets just feel a bit too much for the tier. As for bolt I don’t support any action on that Mon I feel it’s fairly healthy and the fact it’s used on multiple different playstyles is a testament to that.

 

[Toxic Ariados]

I'm still gathering my thoughts about the three guys mentioned on this post. I personally don't see any of them as banworthy. However, I'm very curious about the legality of a third tera suspect test. It doesn't seem like suspecting something thrice is impossible as SV Doubles OU ended up testing Flutter Mane three times. Maybe testing a generational gimmick is harder to justify than a singular Pokemon? Anyways, I hope a third test is a possibility as I dislike terastallization and would love to see it go. I think its disappearance would greatly improve the health of the format.

 

[Dahness]

As others have said in this thread, i think the actual big problem of the meta is this gen's mechanic: Terastal. Its very uncompetitive and changes core aspects of the game in a very unhealthy way, which i despise.Let's see some examples:

You see this thing and think " yup, its gonna die to one Earthquake from a since its 4x weak to it".NOPE! It's just gonna tera grass in your face, therefore making u doubt if you want to use ur 4x super effective against a mon just because it might terastalize in your face and eat that hit with its new typing.Does that seem healthy? Not so much.This is more on the defensive side of things, cuz when it comes to the offensive part of things...oh boy.

From my memory alone, these are a few mons that got BANNED simply because terastalization made them broken:






and others which i can't think of.

Point is, this mechanic has warped the meta arounds itself in a very, very bad way.Makes you doubt anything and enables a lot of stupid sets.As bacon said, the combination of having z moves AND tera makes a lot of mons very unpredictable.

As for , i can say i have never been a fan of it, as it has imo the perfect moves.Superpower for , play rough for ,it can also run encore to fuck up balance team or slower walls, taunt, or even spikes(less viable tho).Ogerpon is good, so good in fact that it can choose what mons it counters and what it mons it gets walled by.With tera, it becomes able to put a lot of pressure on even the most defensive mons, as nothing can take too well a +2 tera water 100bp stab move.Speaking of, i think ivy cudgel has gotta be one of the dumbest move they ever added.100bp stab move that has NO DRAWBACKS, not even contact, and gets boosted by the tera.Very good game design.

My final point is that while yes, ogerpon-w, gouging and bolt are very offensively threathening mons, i think the bigger problem is tera.I doubt a 3rd suspect would be possible tho, but we can still dream about what could have been

 

[AWeirdWeeb]

Been mostly on the more casual side of things, but I guess I might just as well throw my 2 cents.

Both Gouging and Wellspring are mons which are well deserving of getting suspected, especially after having one of their strongest checks got removed from the tier, altough not entirely sure if they are truly worthy of the ban. Raging bolt on the other hand, albeit strong, is hardly worth the same treatment.

Unbanning Zamazenta in the current format would really be the opposite of progress towards a better format, we slightly get rid of 2 small issues just to make space for a way bigger one.

Thrown around, and just gonna jump into the not so new bandwagon, Tera is and has been arguably the biggest issue of the tier this entire generation and I don't think the concept is anything new. Quite frankly 80% of the bans this gen have been attempts at fixing the problems caused by said mechanic, just for 3 more issues(which can pretty much still be traced down back to Tera) to appear, and, look at that, after 2 years of constantly cutting edges around it, there still are problems rising cuz of it. In other words, by this point suspect testing Tera again might be the most solid option.

 

[CappyThePulpy]

Alright, time to jump into this.
First of all, watwrpon should be suspected, not quickbanned. As a suspect survivor, a quickban is out of the question. I have nothing against suspecting raging bolt and gouging fire afterwards, but I doubt that will result in a ban.

I will talk more about the actual problem with the tier, TERA, and how it gives offense more tools while giving defense a very hard time in the builder. Here is a calc which I think showcases it pretty well:

252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory on a critical hit: 117-138 (35 - 41.3%) -- approx. 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory on a critical hit: 156-186 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Here is how just clicking tera significantly changes a matchup and may claim a kill on a balance team’s only physical wall. Normally, to reach the 2hko, an adamant urshifu would have to be used, with some slight extra chip on the skarm. Or a banded urshifu. But no, the urshifu is still scarf in this situation and simply has an option to 2hko the skarm in its arsenal. It does not have to use it, and pays nothing for carrying it, unlike band or adamant, which have clear downsides when you are not in the skarm situation. How does the skarm deal with this? One option is to ev specifically to live it, after all the standard skarm is 160+, there is room for more. But now your skarm has to accept a downside (less speed) to check tera shifu. But the shifu doesnt have to tera. So skarm is playing at a disadvantage but may not even see the situation occur in a game, while the shifu made zero commitment. Tera dragon skarm would be an option, but close combat has about the same numbers. Not to mention, in case of a balance team, your only physdef mon is forced to accept a worse typing.

To sum it up, X defensive mon may be out of range from Y offensive mon’s move. Y can tera for a stab boost or defensively tera to reduce the consequences for staying in more. To counter this, X would need to also tera or specifically invest evs. But if Y does not tera, the ev investment is a waste. Also, a defensive mon using a defensive tera is not great at all, a lot of times just postponing your problem: your tera dragon mola will stop waterpon but doing that means it dies to weavile.

So how do you dodge this situation all together? You dont use a phys wall and just run offence. No need to worry about defensive calcs when you are not taking the hit. No need to worry about a free turn from defensive tera when you are already boosted and can ko.

And in these offence vs offence situations, the “healthy” interaction is that a sweeper uses tera to get a boost and you use tera to stop it (which in practice is much more random since tera types vary).

The issue with tera is that it changes how a mon functions and interacts, but does so only when you need it, with no drawback when you dont (unlike zmoves which cost you an item slot no matter what).

Honestly, just do a survey on tera and find out what the community thinks about it now.

 

[Gottycatcheymall]

Alright, time to jump into this.
First of all, watwrpon should be suspected, not quickbanned. As a suspect survivor, a quickban is out of the question. I have nothing against suspecting raging bolt and gouging fire afterwards, but I doubt that will result in a ban.

I will talk more about the actual problem with the tier, TERA, and how it gives offense more tools while giving defense a very hard time in the builder. Here is a calc which I think showcases it pretty well:

252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory on a critical hit: 117-138 (35 - 41.3%) -- approx. 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory on a critical hit: 156-186 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Here is how just clicking tera significantly changes a matchup and may claim a kill on a balance team’s only physical wall. Normally, to reach the 2hko, an adamant urshifu would have to be used, with some slight extra chip on the skarm. Or a banded urshifu. But no, the urshifu is still scarf in this situation and simply has an option to 2hko the skarm in its arsenal. It does not have to use it, and pays nothing for carrying it, unlike band or adamant, which have clear downsides when you are not in the skarm situation. How does the skarm deal with this? One option is to ev specifically to live it, after all the standard skarm is 160+, there is room for more. But now your skarm has to accept a downside (less speed) to check tera shifu. But the shifu doesnt have to tera. So skarm is playing at a disadvantage but may not even see the situation occur in a game, while the shifu made zero commitment. Tera dragon skarm would be an option, but close combat has about the same numbers. Not to mention, in case of a balance team, your only physdef mon is forced to accept a worse typing.

To sum it up, X defensive mon may be out of range from Y offensive mon’s move. Y can tera for a stab boost or defensively tera to reduce the consequences for staying in more. To counter this, X would need to also tera or specifically invest evs. But if Y does not tera, the ev investment is a waste. Also, a defensive mon using a defensive tera is not great at all, a lot of times just postponing your problem: your tera dragon mola will stop waterpon but doing that means it dies to weavile.

So how do you dodge this situation all together? You dont use a phys wall and just run offence. No need to worry about defensive calcs when you are not taking the hit. No need to worry about a free turn from defensive tera when you are already boosted and can ko.

And in these offence vs offence situations, the “healthy” interaction is that a sweeper uses tera to get a boost and you use tera to stop it (which in practice is much more random since tera types vary).

The issue with tera is that it changes how a mon functions and interacts, but does so only when you need it, with no drawback when you dont (unlike zmoves which cost you an item slot no matter what).

Honestly, just do a survey on tera and find out what the community thinks about it now.

Imo a tera ban wont nerf strong set up mons and breakers defensive teras are first of all a solid way to deal with threats like oger i do get what you are saying about the oger weavile situation were you are made weak to another mon but idt banning tera helps that as you still just loose to oger then but the main reason i dont belive the tera ban is going to help is that some very dominant offensive mons dont rely on or even use tera examples are like z gouging one of the most dominant offensive threats rn along with oger, z bolt which is fairly common, mega medi the best mega rn debatably, and even volc and crown arent increadbly reliant on tera.

but yeh thats just my opinon take it as you will

 

[Moyashi]

some very dominant offensive mons dont rely on or even use tera examples are like z gouging one of the most dominant offensive threats rn along with oger, z bolt which is fairly common, mega medi the best mega rn debatably, and even volc and crown arent increadbly reliant on tera.

I would love to get off the topic of tera because it's really not a focus here (and since again, I don't think it's something that can be touched at this point), but just to point something out: Z Gouging doesn't use Tera (because it can't), but Gouging itself is still a solidly common and very efficient user of Tera (I'd say one of the top abusers honestly). Tera is also deceptively big part of Oger's toolkit as it makes it much harder to revenge kill, and allows it to muscle past even sturdy mons. Bolt has non Z sets and CM+Booster sets frequently use Tera to highly potent degrees. Volc also isn't "reliant" on Tera but it's an immensely potent user of the mechanic that lets it pick and choose its answers, while Crown is able to use it well for its CM sets as well as the odd but strong Specs sets.

 

[Gottycatcheymall]

I would love to get off the topic of tera because it's really not a focus here (and since again, I don't think it's something that can be touched at this point), but just to point something out: Z Gouging doesn't use Tera (because it can't), but Gouging itself is still a solidly common and very efficient user of Tera (I'd say one of the top abusers honestly). Tera is also deceptively big part of Oger's toolkit as it makes it much harder to revenge kill, and allows it to muscle past even sturdy mons. Bolt has non Z sets and CM+Booster sets frequently use Tera to highly potent degrees. Volc also isn't "reliant" on Tera but it's an immensely potent user of the mechanic that lets it pick and choose its answers, while Crown is able to use it well for its CM sets as well as the odd but strong Specs sets.

gotcha just wanted to point out tera isnt the main problem with the meta being so offensivly demanding

 

[KamenAlliterator]

Tbrh. I despise Waterpon with a BURNING passion. Not because of some bias or self hate, but mainly how much of a pain it is and HAS been lately in ND as people had mentioned a while earlier in this thread. I'm really starting to get tired of continuously having to bring answers for Waterpon now that it's nearly on even team i've encountered on the ladders up until now. Like, let me have my cake and eat it too. I don't want ND circulating around one mon because of how stupidly annoying it is and can be with the given gimmicks, sets, and playstyles.

Oh, and Gouging Fire needs to go too. How many suspects has it gotten and STILL hasn't gotten a ban now??

 

[Oculars]

Oh, and Gouging Fire needs to go too. How many suspects has it gotten and STILL hasn't gotten a ban now??

Zero

 

[KamenAlliterator]

Zero

Wait that's weird.......why didn't it get a suspect?

 

[TBE]

Week 1 of PL has begun and we’re in one of the worst meta games this tier has seen. After reading through this thread, most think tera is still the issue. Others believe banning Wellspring and Gouging will be enough. I’m okay with using that as a start, then we can explore the more drastic route of suspecting tera. I won’t go into much detail of the extent of Tera’s brokenness because there are many other post who do this better. Offense is the biggest problem in the tier for so many reasons and it doesn’t stop at Wellspring. Offense has so many tools as far as leads and play styles, amazing pivots like Lando, ridiculous breakers like Wellspring, Gouging, Bolt, Tapu Lele. You ban the former two and we’ll be suspecting rain, arch or bolt next.

I encourage all of you reading this who are pro-ban or pro-tera to continue to voice your concerns. All I ask is you consider all options regardless of what you think is possible because it might be more possible than you think. I propose we conduct a survey, with PL starting we’ll get a lot of engagement and hopefully we can learn how everyone feels about the tier and not just stupid forum posters like me.

To continue the theme with my last post I’ll ad a TLDR section at the end.
Tera is a huge issue for this tier regardless of tiering action we make to try and make it work. The only hope for a stable meta is to ban the mechanic and conduct an unban slate which the council will vote on Pokémon they think are balanced in a tera-less meta. Release surveys immediately and don’t dismiss any options. Thanks for reading my post again,
-thebestever543

 

[Sami]

Week 1 of PL has begun and we’re in one of the worst meta games this tier has seen. After reading through this thread, most think tera is still the issue. Others believe banning Wellspring and Gouging will be enough. I’m okay with using that as a start, then we can explore the more drastic route of suspecting tera. I won’t go into much detail of the extent of Tera’s brokenness because there are many other post who do this better. Offense is the biggest problem in the tier for so many reasons and it doesn’t stop at Wellspring. Offense has so many tools as far as leads and play styles, amazing pivots like Lando, ridiculous breakers like Wellspring, Gouging, Bolt, Tapu Lele. You ban the former two and we’ll be suspecting rain, arch or bolt next.

I encourage all of you reading this who are pro-ban or pro-tera to continue to voice your concerns. All I ask is you consider all options regardless of what you think is possible because it might be more possible than you think. I propose we conduct a survey, with PL starting we’ll get a lot of engagement and hopefully we can learn how everyone feels about the tier and not just stupid forum posters like me.

To continue the theme with my last post I’ll ad a TLDR section at the end.
Tera is a huge issue for this tier regardless of tiering action we make to try and make it work. The only hope for a stable meta is to ban the mechanic and conduct an unban slate which the council will vote on Pokémon they think are balanced in a tera-less meta. Release surveys immediately and don’t dismiss any options. Thanks for reading my post again,
-thebestever543

Get Shedinja out that list brah... he staying in NDAG...

 

[Adriyun]

hey hey here we go! Tera has got to go! Give me a B.. Give me an A.. Give me a N. B.A.N! Ban tera!!!

Let’s Go national dex! Dun dun.. dun dun dun. Let’s go National dex!! Dun dun.. dun dun dun. We got this! Yeah we got it! we got it! yeah yeah..

Anyways.. I think a gouging ban or suspect can help the tier more, im mixed on waterpon and bolts If we’re being “realistic” and tera doesn’t go. i think a gouging ban.. suspect even is s good step into the right direction.. and hopefully before finals of NDPL. or else.

 

[ChrisPBacon]

Now that discussion has somewhat died down, the council has decided to close this thread and move forward with a suspect test on Gouging Fire. Soon after, we plan on releasing a survey, focused mostly on gauging community support on a third tera test, which if approved, will occur near the end of NDPL or this year's circuit playoffs, depending on whether or not we want to preserve a tera meta for circuit. Thanks for all of your contributions and stay tuned!