Time to discuss a concoction named Physical Bulk Staraptor

[umbarsc]

Of you could stay in because Thunderbolt and Ice Beam don't own Pidgeot like they do Staraptor (After Roost or no). If you're just using Intimdate + U-Turn, you might as well forget the bulky set and just use CB Raptor since it scouts and does decent damage. People underestimate Pidgeot and forget it can break 300 speed, so they usually end up keeping things in to be Featherdanced. Once they realize they can't take out Pidgeot they switch, and that is when you predict and nail the new switchin with Featherdance.

I mean, the premise of this set seems to be to switch in to powerful physical attacks and then Featherdance and U-Turn out. Thats all well and good, but if your opponent switchens in a special attacking pokemon or a mixed pokemon with special attacks, Staraptor is still SOL. 50 SDef is quite awful. I've been using the Pidgeot set in UU and Lucario Aura Sphere did 52% to Pidgeot. Staraptor would always be 2HKO'd. Naturally you can't roost on Aura Sphere in that case, but Air Slash took out over half of Lucario's HP so it did fine. Air Slash helps Pidgeot quite a bit more than Aerial Ace/Brave Bird since it isn't affected by opposing Intimidates and it has more power than AA and no recoil like Brave Bird.

Noctowl can also do these things and has more special durability, but its physical defense is awful.

Now I made the Pidgeot set for UU based on these to be sure, since it says Hello to starting fighters, but it still has quite a bit of merit since it is special based and the Steel walss in UU don't stop it, and really hate Featherdance.

I think you're forgetting that Pidgeot is FRAIL. While its stats suggest that it takes hits similar to Staraptor, the lack of Intimidate just says "why the hell did I give this Defense EVs?".

Not convinced? Here, let's run some calculations.

Choice Scarf Heracross's Stone Edge on Staraptor:

173 HP - 204 HP (50.28% - 58.28%)

Staraptor has a shot at surviving, but let's look at Pidgeot.

Against max/max Pidgeot:

203 HP - 239 HP (54.86% - 64.69%)


Notice the difference? Wait a minute... I just helped prove yourself...

Also, you mentioned that Pidgeot can use HP Fighting for Rock- and Steel-types, but how is it going to find room for that in a moveset consisting of Roost / U-Turn / Air Slash / Featherdance?

 

[Bologo]

Alright everyone, sorry to bump, but I've now done some extensive testing on my friend the bulky Staraptor, and I've come to a couple of conclusions:

- It works insanely well with Toxic Spikes up and is almost a necessity if the set is to work to its fullest potential

- It can outstall other stallers as well. Eg. I outstalled a Hippowdon because the only thing it could really do was Ice Fang, which I easily Roost off, even moreso because it took away the type that was weak to Ice. Featherdance made Hippowdown useless while I could just beat down on it with Brave Bird while it died to Toxic.

- Has some trouble with Mixed sweepers because of the obvious low special defense

- Brave Bird still hurts like hell coming from 276 attack and a 120 BP STAB move, and the recoil doesn't appear to be much of a problem since Staraptor is still fast and can Roost off the damage

- Contrary to what some people are saying, it actually does remarkably well against Gyarados -> If Gyarados Taunts, Brave Bird can still really hurt him -> If Gyarados Ice Fangs/Stone Edges/Returns, it will be easily Roosted off, especially because Staraptor is faster before a Dragon Dance -> If Gyarados Dragon Dances, just predict it and U-Turn to a Gyarados counter

- Requires great prediction with Featherdance and U-Turn, but if used correctly, it will force a lot of switches and if the opponent doesn't switch, they will get stalled

- Dies really easily to special attacks, and thus should not be sent out against special attacks unless it is Shadow Ball or Earth Power...

I hope you all try the set out sometime, because it really is a great set, and I didn't think it would actually work, but I believe some people are beginning to catch on. Give it a try!

 

[Towlie]

That Hippo you stalled out was mine. xD

And Yea, Toxic Spikes works really good with the set.

 

[travisurfer]

I've tried a similar set and it was pretty awesome. I have been dying to find a way to make Mawile work though...

 

[Pneuma]

- It works insanely well with Toxic Spikes up and is almost a necessity if the set is to work to its fullest potential

This really does make a world of difference with this set. @_@
To a lesser extent, hail or sand can also rack up the damage while you Roost.

 

[Deck Knight]

I think you're forgetting that Pidgeot is FRAIL. While its stats suggest that it takes hits similar to Staraptor, the lack of Intimidate just says "why the hell did I give this Defense EVs?".

Not convinced? Here, let's run some calculations.

Choice Scarf Heracross's Stone Edge on Staraptor:

173 HP - 204 HP (50.28% - 58.28%)

Staraptor has a shot at surviving, but let's look at Pidgeot.

Against max/max Pidgeot:

203 HP - 239 HP (54.86% - 64.69%)


Notice the difference? Wait a minute... I just helped prove yourself...

Also, you mentioned that Pidgeot can use HP Fighting for Rock- and Steel-types, but how is it going to find room for that in a moveset consisting of Roost / U-Turn / Air Slash / Featherdance?

Because my set didn't have U-Turn, it had Air Slash. I don't see the point of U-Turn here on a defensive Raptor or Pidgeot set it won't do any damage unless your name is Exegutor/Celebi/Shiftry/Cacturne. If you want to Intimidate and then get out use CB Raptor. Otherwise U-Turn is wasting a moveslot for a glorified switchout. I suppose LO or Expert Belt or even Muscle Band Staraptor could employ this set and get a boost, but they won't tank as well.

And it's idiotic to switch either of these into Heracross Stone Edge.

Intimidate! Yay, Heracross can't OHKO me!

A critical hit! --- Oh snap!

Why you would throw this into Heracross Stone Edge when Roost Mence does an even better job, I don't know. Otherwise you're just giving your opponent a free switch at best and a free kill at worst.

And Pidgeot is frail? What the heck is Staraptor? It has 2 more Base HP, -5 Base Def and -20 Base Sdef. Intimidate only works when you switch in, so as soon as an opponent switches out, Pidgeot is in a better position to handle foes.

My Pidgeot set also didn't load up on defense, I pumped HP and went for 300 Speed instead, then dumped into defense. Air Slash flinch then gives it a chance for more lefties, Heracross stays the hell away if it knows what's good for it. Also lets it Featherdance more threats before they can attack.

The calcs section at the beginning also have too many assumptions for my taste. They ignore the fact Medicham has High Jump Kick, which will OHKO Staraptor after Roost. Most of those pokemon also have Swords Dance. The problem is, since Staraptor can't actually do anything to the Swords Dancers they win if Starptor keeps trying to Featherdance them.

Boahtar also counters this, since it can Ice Beam or Thunderbolt the bird back into oblivion and if it gets uppity and tries Roost, Focus Punch finishes it.

There's also the matter of Stealth Rock, which renders most of these calculations moot since Scarfcross can 2HKO Staraptor at 75%.

 

[umbarsc]

Read closely.

INTIMI_FUCKING_DATE.

It makes quite a large difference. You remove the opposing Choice Band. You lower their attack quite significantly. Pidgeot has average defenses, as does Staraptor, but that boost in defending skills is absolutely nessecary on such a defensively-average Poke.

U-Turn isn't useless. You use it for scouting while they switch, not for damage. If you send in Staraptor against Heracross while they Swords Dance, you might predict that they will send in Skarmory, so you send in Jolteon, but they might predict that and send in ScarfChomp. If you U-Turned on that switch, you'd see that they sent out ScarfChomp, and you'd bring in Scarf Gengar w/HP Ice. Pidgeot can't do that without U-Turn.

 

[Bologo]

Umm Deck Knight, the reason I didn't say anything about Medicham's High Jump Kick damage after Roost is because Medicham almost always has more than 270 speed, because nobody runs adamant without a Choice Scarf (faster), or they will run Jolly (also faster).

Also, who the heck is going to run from Pidgeot when they see it? The only thing I can think of is Heracross, and maybe Breloom, but that's about it. Even then, Heracross usually has a Choice item, so Pidgeot is going to have a hell of a lot more trouble switching in than Staraptor.

I know that Stealth Rock can make this set a little worse, but that's why I carry a Rapid Spinner...even then I can usually just Roost off the damage. Obviously I'm not going to just switch right into Heracross and let him 2HKO me with Stone Edge.

Plus, it's still a very low chance that he'll get a critical hit anyway, so that point is kind of useless since the same applies for many pokemon, including Gyarados when he tries to intimidate foes, he always runs the chance of getting a critical hit.

U-Turn is, like BLAZIKEN_57 said, for scouting. As we all know, Staraptor forces a lot of switches, and U-Turn is useful to see what they brought in. Air Slash on your Pidgeot is good, but really, Air Slash is only useful on Togekiss because a 30% chance of flinching without Serene Grace is still low, and as a result, is unreliable.

 

[Pikachu of Doom]

You die to any rock type since you can't actually do anything to them.

 

[Towlie]

Typically, you don't stay in on Rock Types. But there really isn't too many Rock types that are used too often. Tyranitar is obviously the most used Rock type, which Staraptor actually takes a nice chunk of HP out of with U-Turn.

 

[Pneuma]

You die to any rock type since you can't actually do anything to them.

I don't see how. Unless they're using Special Rock attacks (FUCK, POWER GEM) you can Featherdance and Roost away your weakness to PPStall or, in the very supported case, they die to Toxic.

 

[Bologo]

Yeah, none of the Rock types in BL/OU are actually resistant to Bug, and some are weak (Tyranitar), so you can just U-Turn out of them, and do some nice damage in the process. In fact, the only Rock types that can really hurt Staraptor badly are Relicanth and Rampardos because their Head Smash will almost always pull a OHKO if Staraptor switches in. However, even they get screwed if they get Featherdanced.

Of course, the only Rocks this truly gets walled by are the Rock/Steels, but then you can just U-Turn out of them and go to something that can shred them.

 

[travisurfer]

To be fair, not many rock/steels will switch in when a close combat could be around the corner. That gives you a major trump card over them until they realize the kind of set you are using.

 

[umbarsc]

Yeah, none of the Rock types in BL/OU are actually resistant to Bug

Aerodactyl says otherwise. ;)

Just saying. =P

 

[Twilight :)]

I just had the pleasure of playing two battles against this thing along side of a very unique build of a team, and I must say, it's much bulkier than it looks on paper.

Alot of non-SE attacks are eaisly outstalled and the Pokemon eventually crippled. And if they decide they want to switch out after the ATK drop, they may reveal a new Pokemon through a switch in or just switch something else in that is happily met by a U-Turn and countered accordingly.

Nice stuff as always, Bologo.

 

[Bologo]

I just had the pleasure of playing two battles against this thing along side of a very unique build of a team, and I must say, it's much bulkier than it looks on paper.

Alot of non-SE attacks are eaisly outstalled and the Pokemon eventually crippled. And if they decide they want to switch out after the ATK drop, they may reveal a new Pokemon through a switch in or just switch something else in that is happily met by a U-Turn and countered accordingly.

Nice stuff as always, Bologo.

Haha thanks man. I'd like to add that just bringing in Staraptor may win the game, because for example, I had a Yanmega at about 85% health, and I brought in Staraptor against a Weavile. I knew that Staraptor would die to Ice Punch since it was at only 25% health, but I brought it in just for the Intimidate. Then I brought in Yanmega who was then able to survive an Ice Punch with 1% left and win the game with rampant Bug Buzzing.

Seriously, not only can Staraptor be really bulky, but he can actually come in when he's at extremely low health and still have a good chance of helping out the team, be that if he can Roost faster than the opponent, or if he can just cripple them with Intimidate. Plus, Roost helps the bulkiness even more and lets him pose an even bigger threat with Brave Bird since he can just get the health back, and he doesn't take too much recoil since he has 368 HP.