Titanfall (Kingdra Late Game Rainsweep Team)

BlazeTemplar

BlazeTemplar

I wanted to build an Ubers Team around a threatening Swift Swim Pokemon: Kingdra. So of couse Giving him Rain support was critical. Therefore, Kyogre was an obvious Pokemon to be added to the team.
Kyogre @ LeftoversTrait: Drizzle< Choice Scarf Kyogre
Mewtwo @ Expert Belt< Mewtwo@Life Orb
Kingdra @ Leftovers < Kingdra@Liechi Berry <Kingdra @ Dragon Gem?
Zekrom @ Choiceband < Giratina @ Leftovers
Palkia @ Choice Specs < Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Rayquaza @ Expert Belt < Raquaza @ Choice Band
Zerkrom was a great wall breaker but I needed to be able to deal with ExSpeed killer arceus, which is where Giratina comes into play.
Palkia failed to OHKO several things even with hazards. A specs hydro pump or Draco left several threats with 90% or so HP. This and the fact that I had nothing to sponge hits meant it typically lead to sacs that were crucial to a win or loss.

Current Team: Kyogre@Scarf, Mewtwo@Life Orb, Kingdra@, Giratina@Leftovers, Ferrothorn@Leftovers, Rayquaza@Choice Band.

Team Discription:

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SAtk / 200 Spd
Modest Nature
- Thunder
- Sleep Talk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

I chose hydro pump over surf and Waterspout for the additional power while not losing power as Kyogre losses health which means even when he's at low HP he can still hit hard. Thunder is mostly for other kyogre and Ice Beam is there for super effective hits on dragons. Sleep talk is for darkrai.
This was based off the Choice scarf Kyogre suggested. (I haven't edited the moveset yet in part because Showdown is being Hax city right now and I'm frustrated with it. That and I'm still debating exactly what moves I'd want to replace, etc.) However, I put in a few more speed EVs to still pass over other Scarf ogres.

Kingdra @ Dragon Gem?
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Lonely Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Draco Meteor

Dropped the Iron Head (Loss of the potential flinch hasn't been an issue, but I haven't even needed to bring kingdra out and rely it yet to turn the game around either.) and enjoying the 120 STAB special attack as a back up move from time to time. Considering a Dragon gem of all things to break down a foe that would be otherwise unable to be knocked down. It gives some useful OHKOs that could otherwise retaliate and score a OHKO of their own.

Mewtwo @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Timid Nature
- Psystrike
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Originally Running an Expert Belt there were times I needed the extra power to help quickly clean up. Mewtwo functions as a general hard hitter without taking time to set up. Between Focus Blast and Psystrike there is little that enjoys taking a hit. Ice Beam and Thunder give nice boltbeam coverage. Recently switched to Timid to deal with CM Arceus.

Changed the Giratina Set, and it's helping keep it alive longer.
Bold Giratina @ Leftovers
248 HP EV
252 Def
8 Sp Def
Willo, Roar, Dragon Pulse, Rest
Missing the potential sweeping ability but the ability to consistantly check Physical Arceus is proving helpful. Between Roar, and Willo it's shut down pretty much all phyiscal attackers.

Trying Banded Quaza at the moment and I'm digging Banded V-Create. Easily deals with Steels, and nothing appreciates switching into one. Deals with Scizor, Ferrothorn, etc with no problem especially because of Air Lock removing the Rain while Rayquaza's on the field.
Formerly had a Dragon Dance Rayquaza.

Jolly Rayquaza @ Choice Band
252 Atk
4 Sp Def
252 Spe
V-Create
Outrage
Earthquake
Extremespeed

Only problem I'm having with banded is the lock into outrage if I need to deal with a dragon type.

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Protect

It's Ferrothorn, I chose SR over spikes for the simple fact of being able to hit everything in the tier instead of having levitators and Fliers be immune. Specially defensive because really, Ubers is all about special attacks 85% of the time (Save for a few things like Arceus and Groudon)

This team is far from perfect and I'm still experimenting; finding things that would make it hit harder; take hits better and find reliable solutions to both walls and threats like Arceus.

The team has peaked up to 1800's so it has worked for me, I'd just like to make it better.

Threat List:

Ho-Oh: Moderate threat. Nothing appreciates a brave bird, and the physical attackers hate the burn from Sacred Fire. With Rain Kingdra easily deals, and Kyogre can deal with most varients without any problems. Giratina can rest off damages and roar Ho-Oh out to take more Stealth Rock damage as well.

Mewtwo: Timid Mewtwo can pose a few problems but Rayquaza can deal with Weakened Mewtwo, and Kingdra outspeeds and OHKO's with Waterfall in rain. Defensive varients are a nuisance.

Darkrai: Not an overly large threat due to Sleep Talk Ogre, Swift Swim Kingdra, and Focus Blast on Mewtwo. (Though it does need to be wary of timid scarf Darkrai.)

Palkia: Ferrothorn sponges Palkia's hits and sub protect stalls it out. Also can set up rocks while Palkia bashes away.

CM Arceus: One of the larger threats against my team. Ferrothorn is basically set up fodder and all it can do is seed/protect stall. Kingdra can deal if the rain is up and it's been weakened some. Mewtwo can also deal with it with Psystrike.

ExSpeed Arceus: Not too big of a threat between Giratina and Ferrothorn. Giratina does not appreciate a +4 shadow claw one bit though even after a burn.

Arceus Grass: Potentially problematic. Ferrothorn can't do anything to it, and Kyogre doesn't appreciate Grass Judgement, etc. Giratina can roar away any boosts but can't do much other than burn physical grass. Mewtwo can deal with Grass easily if it's been weakened some. Kyogre can finish off a weakened Grass if it doesn't have CM boosts or only a +1/+2.

Groudon: Easily dealt with by Kyogre in rain but Kyogre does not appreciate thunder wave. Mewtwo can deal with most Groudon except Rock Polish Groudon. If it's specially defensive Groudon it'll take a bit of prior damage to fell. If Specially defensive Mewtwo is likely to take a hit before securing a 2hko. Needless to say Kingdra in rain can will rain on Groudon's parade too. Sets that don't carry fire moves can be seed/protect/powerwhip'ed to death by Ferrothorn. Plus Ferrothorn doesn't care about thunder wave a bit.

Exadril: As long as Rayquaza's around it's death fodder. Although Rayquaza cannot switch into a +2 Rock attack. Kyogre also handles Exadril with relative ease.

Shaymin Sky: To be honest I rarely see Shaymin. A well predicted V-Create can deal with it. Ferrothorn can stall it for a while, and I'm fairly sure that Kyogre with scarf outspeeds. (OHKO with Ice Beam.)

Heatran: Probably one of the biggest threats if it's a weather trapper Heatran. Sun really cripples Kingdra. Mewtwo can deal with it if I predict right though.

Scarfsect: It hasn't proven to be a huge threat. More like a nuisance that I have to kill late game. Giratina (and burn) and Ferrothorn can check it reasonably well and after multiple Switches into SR Kingdra can outspeed and checkmate it late game. Kingdra can also take a predicted U turn and get a dragon dance off.

Rock Polish Genesect: I can't say I've seen it in ubers. Just when it was in OU. Potentially threatening though because of it's massive coverage and ability to change moves. I'll probably have to wear it down (and hopefully roar away it's speed boost.)

Band/specsect: Another set I haven't seen much of lately. Could potentially get a surprise kill but that's about it because of several things that outspeed and revenge kill.

Kyogre: Defensive Kyogre is eaten for breakfast by the thunder users and offensive scarf (non timid) is typically outsped by my Scarf ogre. Specially defensive (And CM) Ogre doesn't appreciate Mewtwo either.
 
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Your new "improved" team confuses me like hell. It looks like you tried to mix different sets and did it exceptionally poorly. Scarfed sleep talk ogre? Fully defensive cm gira? Liechi berry kingdra? What is this I don't even... Also palkia weak.
 
Ummm... it's really hard to read your RMT. No offense, but it looks really sloppy. If you've made changes, please just get rid of the outdated stuff, and just post descriptions for the newer stuff. There are a LOT of things I want to say, but I think it may just be better if I give you with some resources first:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/how-to-make-an-rmt-required-reading.50298/

http://www.smogon.com/bw/tiers/uber

~Kyogre: change to Timid, Water Spout > Hydro Pump, Surf > Sleep Talk
~Kingdra: personally, I'm not familiar with Kingdra, but I highly doubt Liechi Berry will be effective
~Mewtwo: change to Timid, Aura Sphere > Focus Blast, Fire Blast / Calm Mind > Thunder
~Giratina: change to defensive set, CM Giratina will not work
~Rayquaza: change to Life Orb, Earthquake > ExtremeSpeed, Overheat > Fire Blast
~Ferrothorn: change to more balanced spread, Spikes > Protect imo
 
blitzlefan said:
Ummm... it's really hard to read your RMT. No offense, but it looks really sloppy. If you've made changes, please just get rid of the outdated stuff, and just post descriptions for the newer stuff. There are a LOT of things I want to say, but I think it may just be better if I give you with some resources first:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/how-to-make-an-rmt-required-reading.50298/

http://www.smogon.com/bw/tiers/uber

~Kyogre: change to Timid, Water Spout > Hydro Pump, Surf > Sleep Talk
~Kingdra: personally, I'm not familiar with Kingdra, but I highly doubt Liechi Berry will be effective
~Mewtwo: change to Timid, Aura Sphere > Focus Blast, Fire Blast / Calm Mind > Thunder
~Giratina: change to defensive set, CM Giratina will not work
~Rayquaza: change to Life Orb, Earthquake > ExtremeSpeed, Overheat > Fire Blast
~Ferrothorn: change to more balanced spread, Spikes > Protect imo
Click to expand...
Alrighty, I'll edit for a simpler spread. Sorry for the Mess, I tend to try to explain everything.
 
Haruno said:
Your new "improved" team confuses me like hell. It looks like you tried to mix different sets and did it exceptionally poorly. Scarfed sleep talk ogre? Fully defensive cm gira? Liechi berry kingdra? What is this I don't even... Also palkia weak.
Click to expand...

Palkia isn't weak on the sense that he deals a good amount of damage. But I needed the OHKOs after hazards using the original spread and which even with specs he wasn't able to do on a consitant basis. Besides, there wasn't a defensive core to sponge outrages or anything which meant I had to keep sacking things.

And yes, when you first look at Liechi berry on Kingdra it seems insane, but locking yourself in with a band late game can be disasterous. (I tried that at one point...), but Kingdra has juust enough bulk to take a non super effective hit. (Such as a Psychic or shadow claw.) Which means it puts him into Liechi territory without having to lock yourself in with the band. Also, if you gauge Kingdra's bulk right you can get a D-Dance + Berry + Swift Swim. Nothing appreciates a +2 Waterfall late game.

That's been my experience with him anyways.
 
I don't like Sleep Talk on ScarfOgre. Since you are building a team around Kingdra, you should consider a bulky Kyogre, otherwise, the enemy Groudon/Tyranitar will simply Earthquake/Crunch Kyogre on the switch, which can even OHKO depending on the set. With a bulky Kyogre you have a much higher chance to win the weather war.
Give Kingdra Life Orb, as Kingdra is weak without the boost. Also, Kingdra isn't bulky at all, in a tier where 105/90/90 defense is considered frail. Kingdra's STAB is good enough, he doesn't need a coverage move such as Iron Head.
Giratina needs Rest to recover his health. He takes full damage from SR, spikes and TSpikes. Change to the standard set ASAP.

I'll write more things later.
 
cfdu1202 said:
I don't like Sleep Talk on ScarfOgre. Since you are building a team around Kingdra, you should consider a bulky Kyogre, otherwise, the enemy Groudon/Tyranitar will simply Earthquake/Crunch Kyogre on the switch, which can even OHKO depending on the set. With a bulky Kyogre you have a much higher chance to win the weather war.
Give Kingdra Life Orb, as Kingdra is weak without the boost. Also, Kingdra isn't bulky at all, in a tier where 105/90/90 defense is considered frail. Kingdra's STAB is good enough, he doesn't need a coverage move such as Iron Head.
Giratina needs Rest to recover his health. He takes full damage from SR, spikes and TSpikes. Change to the standard set ASAP.

I'll write more things later.
Click to expand...

I tried running a bulky Kyogre originally but it was simply oblitterated by other Kyogre which proved to be problematic.

As to Band T-Tar...

252SpAtk Kyogre (+SAtk) Hydro Pump in Sandstorm vs 252HP/0SpDef Tyranitar (Neutral): 79% - 93% (320 - 378 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Stone Edge in Sandstorm vs 4HP/0Def Kyogre (Neutral): 87% - 103% (300 - 354 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 22% chance to OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch in Sandstorm vs 4HP/0Def Kyogre (Neutral): 70% - 82% (240 - 283 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Although another Damage calculator I ran I ended up with a banded T-Tar using crunch getting a 112% damage and Scarf Ogre scoring 95.5% minimum.
I know I definitely never did like the idea of bringing scarf ogre in on Banded T-tar. Or Groudon unless I know its set. Giratina tends to be my switch into Groudon and Ferro is a fairly strong check against T-Tar. (As long as it doesn't predict the switch and totes Fire Blast...) I'll do a few (dozen) tests on Showdown once the server's up to see which calc is correct. But, yeah I can see where a bulkier Kyogre could be useful. I'll play around a bit and see if Bulky Kyogre does the team favors or not.

BlazeTemplar said:
But Kingdra has juust enough bulk to take a non super effective hit.
Click to expand...
No arguing that Kingdra has little bulk. It's 'just enough' for Liechi berry to activate. Yes this leaves it very open to priority.
Seriously, one hit (after SR) puts him into Liechi territory 70% of the time.
The other 30% ? Well if I didn't get hit by a dragon move it was probably water which it takes about 30-40% Damage from in rain.
Life Orb Might be an option to try though even though a +2
Examples:
252Atk Life Orb Kingdra (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (+Def): 38% - 45% (127 - 151 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252Atk +1 Kingdra (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (+Def): 44% - 52% (148 - 175 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. (Liechi or just a D-Dance)
252Atk +2 Kingdra (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (+Def): 58% - 69% (196 - 232 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (Liechi and D-Dance)
Mind you the team really doesn't fear Skarmory at all with Quaza, Kyogre and Giratina (Currently) all able to deal with it.

Anyhow, I realize that Iron head doesn't offer much coverage, nor does it offer a lot of power. However, Kingdra's movepool is frightenly barren so there's not a lot of options for a fourth move. Suggestions over Iron Head?

As to Giratina, I'll take a look, try it out and see if it does more favors. Rest after burning Arceus/Other major physical hitters might prove more useful.
 
BlazeTemplar said:
Suggestions over Iron Head?
Click to expand...


I'm not an avid ubers player, but I have used Kingdra quite a lot so I imagine it's somewhat similar. The first option you have is to run ChestoRest over Iron Head + LO, but because Kingdra is so frail in the spectrum of ubers, it's probably not worth it, nor will you find much time to rest. A more pertinent option to maintain your physical set would be running either substitute or yawn. Substitute is useful for getting free DDs, scouting, blocking leech seed/status, etc. etc. Yawn, on the other hand, is a pseudophazing move (although I'm not sold on how good it would be). Finally, you have the option of running a "mixed" set and just putting Draco Meteor or Hydro Pump in that last slot. Even with minimal investment, you're still getting the STAB/rain boost and it can help you break down some physical walls. Furthermore, clicking Draco Meteor isn't as detrimental to your Kingdra when it's not meant to be a full-out special attacker.

Either way though, Iron Head is just awful. There is literally no way that it will ever do more than waterfall or outrage, unless I'm missing something.

(against Water/Ice pokemon) - Iron Head = 160 BP, Waterfall = 90 BP, Outrage = 180 BP
(against hypothetical 4x weak Ice/Rock pokemon) - Iron Head = 320 BP, Waterfall = 360 BP, Outrage = 90 BP

In other words, anything that steel is super effective against is either neutral to dragon or weak to water, making it completely useless.
 
BlazeTemplar said:
I tried running a bulky Kyogre originally but it was simply oblitterated by other Kyogre which proved to be problematic.
Click to expand...
If anything, this Kyogre is MORE vulnerable. I also don't see why your Kyogre needs to handle other Kyogre; you have six Pokemon for a reason. I agree that a bulky Kyogre may serve you better as you want reliable rain support. However, if you do change Kyogre sets, you will need a new revenge killer (over Mewtwo, because it's currently the least necessary Pokemon on your team). I would propose the following set:

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty/Naive Nature
- U-Turn
- Iron Head
- Explosion
- Ice Beam

Physical Scarfsect is widely regarded as the best Scarf user in the game, and pretty much every team (even full stall) needs a Scarf user.
If you stick with Scarf Kyogre, I recommend that you change to this set:

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 64 HP / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Surf
- Thunder
- Ice Beam

The moveset is simply Scarf Ogre's best. As for the speed investment, all you gain by running max speed is a speed tie with other base 90 Scarf users, most of which either are afraid of you (Ho-Oh/Reshiram) or beat you either way (Dialga/Zekrom).

Regardless of whether or not you change Kyogre sets, you should change to standard Giratina, which doesn't much mind being put to sleep by Darkrai, after which you switch to something that can outspeed and kill it.

On Kingdra, I recommend Draco Meteor > Iron Head, as Iron Head adds very little coverage and Waterfall already has a flinch rate when you need that. Draco Meteor lets you hit threats that don't mind Waterfall hard without locking yourself in, and the -2 doesn't weaken your other attacks at all. After this change, Life Orb will definitely serve you better; it also boosts the power of Draco Meteor, and boosts Kingdra's attacks before it takes a hit that may or may not KO it. The recoil is only a minor downside, as Kingdra is frail by Uber standards anyway.

I'm not sure why you have opted for that particular Rayquaza set. DD Rayquaza is more of an all-or-nothing set up sweeper, and I feel like what your team really wants Rayquaza to do is act as a wallbreaker and a check for opposing Swift Swim sweepers. I recommend either the Mixed Attacker or the Swords Dance set mentioned here. The mixed attacker is a little better for immediate wall-breaking, but the SD set is truly terrifying if it sets up and can sweep unless the opponent packs a revenge killer that can survive its Extremespeed or has his own priority users.

If Mewtwo doesn't end up being replaced, change its Nature to Timid. It's in an elite speed tier where only Deoxys-A/S and scarfs/weather sweepers can outspeed it; take full advantage of that.

I also recommend replacing Protect on Ferrothorn. It's handy, but it can also be used against you, giving the opponent free turns to switch or set up or something. Thunder Wave is great because it prevents Ferrothorn being set up fodder (especially for something like DD Rayquaza, which would run through your team after a set up), but Spikes are also great because hazards rule the metagame.

Also, Arceus-Grass gives your team a lot of trouble. It can check Kyogre/Kingdra very well, often carries Ice Beam to destroy Rayquaza, and Giratina/Ferrothorn won't do anything to it (although it can't do anything to them either).
 
For a bulky Kyogre, I recommend this set:

Kyogre@Lum Berry/Leftovers
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 252Hp/4Def/252SpAtk
Modest Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

This is a great lead, you can beat Darkrai with it.
Although it doesn't have any investment in defense, you are still very bulky with 252 ev in Hp and base 100/90/140 defense. full investment in special attack let you maim common switch-ins such as Zekrom. Arceus-Normal cannot set-up on this (it's very risky for Arceus: scald is a 2HKO, and the potential burn).
Thunder Wave is mainly for Palkia, Latias and Arceus-Grass, while a Scald burn can be tromblesome for Ferrothorn.
By using this set you add bulk that your team currently desperately needs.

Use Life Orb/Lum Berry on Rayquaza. You need the additional power vs Groudon, and Rayquaza isn't hitting a lot of pokemon super effective.
Blue Jay is right: always use Timid on Mewtwo, always.
 
BlazeTemplar said:
I tried running a bulky Kyogre originally but it was simply oblitterated by other Kyogre which proved to be problematic.

As to Band T-Tar...

252SpAtk Kyogre (+SAtk) Hydro Pump in Sandstorm vs 252HP/0SpDef Tyranitar (Neutral): 79% - 93% (320 - 378 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Stone Edge in Sandstorm vs 4HP/0Def Kyogre (Neutral): 87% - 103% (300 - 354 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 22% chance to OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch in Sandstorm vs 4HP/0Def Kyogre (Neutral): 70% - 82% (240 - 283 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Although another Damage calculator I ran I ended up with a banded T-Tar using crunch getting a 112% damage and Scarf Ogre scoring 95.5% minimum.
I know I definitely never did like the idea of bringing scarf ogre in on Banded T-tar. Or Groudon unless I know its set. Giratina tends to be my switch into Groudon and Ferro is a fairly strong check against T-Tar. (As long as it doesn't predict the switch and totes Fire Blast...) I'll do a few (dozen) tests on Showdown once the server's up to see which calc is correct. But, yeah I can see where a bulkier Kyogre could be useful. I'll play around a bit and see if Bulky Kyogre does the team favors or not.


No arguing that Kingdra has little bulk. It's 'just enough' for Liechi berry to activate. Yes this leaves it very open to priority.
Seriously, one hit (after SR) puts him into Liechi territory 70% of the time.
The other 30% ? Well if I didn't get hit by a dragon move it was probably water which it takes about 30-40% Damage from in rain.
Life Orb Might be an option to try though even though a +2
Examples:
252Atk Life Orb Kingdra (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (+Def): 38% - 45% (127 - 151 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252Atk +1 Kingdra (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (+Def): 44% - 52% (148 - 175 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. (Liechi or just a D-Dance)
252Atk +2 Kingdra (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (+Def): 58% - 69% (196 - 232 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. (Liechi and D-Dance)
Mind you the team really doesn't fear Skarmory at all with Quaza, Kyogre and Giratina (Currently) all able to deal with it.

Anyhow, I realize that Iron head doesn't offer much coverage, nor does it offer a lot of power. However, Kingdra's movepool is frightenly barren so there's not a lot of options for a fourth move. Suggestions over Iron Head?

As to Giratina, I'll take a look, try it out and see if it does more favors. Rest after burning Arceus/Other major physical hitters might prove more useful.
Click to expand...

Showdown has been a pain in the neck and I have work here to do but I finally managed to do some tests. As long as crits/Misses are not in the mix it's a double down due to sand on a Banded T-Tar vs Scarfed ogre with 4 HP EVs when T-tar uses Stone Edge and Kyogre uses Hydro Pump. That's not something I'm overly comfortable with I'll confess. I'll have to do some EV calcs with HP and Speed changes and see what becomes a bigger threat/lesser threats that way. That HP EV spread looks fairly attractive but I'll have to see exactly what it'll be able to take and not before I decide. (It's definitely worth testing though)

Once I get done with work today hopefully I'll be able to use Showdown again and work on these kinks.

However, the problem with that bulky Kyogre Set and beating Darkrai is that it can't directly take it out and nothing else on my team can deal with sleep. Darkrai will just dark void, (Potentially sub) nasty plot, and destroy. Or switch into something else if it's a scarfer.

As to the T-Tar used in the testing...

T-Tar @ Choice Band
252 HP
252 Atk
4 SpDef
Adamant Nature

Example Logs: (Some Score in the 80% area on both sides)
Turn 1​

The foe's Kyogre used Hydro Pump!​
It's super effective! Tyranitar lost 71.8% of its health!​
Tyranitar used Stone Edge!​
The foe's Kyogre lost 92% of its health!​
The sandstorm rages.​
The foe's Kyogre is buffeted by the sandstorm!​
Turn 2​

The foe's Kyogre used Hydro Pump!​
It's super effective! Tyranitar lost 28.0% of its health!​
Tyranitar fainted!​
 
Kyogre@Lum Berry beats Darkrai lead anyway, even if it set-up, Kingdra can revenge it (it becomes problematic when behind a sub, but scarfOgre cannot revenge it either).

76 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 129-153 (37.71 - 44.73%) -- guaranteed 3HKO; 45.31% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm
76 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 129-153 (31.93 - 37.87%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

4 Atk Groudon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 169-199 (49.41 - 58.18%) -- 98.05% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 168-198 (41.58 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 285-335 (83.33 - 97.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 282-333 (69.8 - 82.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 130-154 (38.01 - 45.02%) -- guaranteed 3HKO; 55.86% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm (irrevelant, Hippowdon will never switch into/stay on the field against Kyogre)
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 129-153 (31.93 - 37.87%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 354-417 (87.62 - 103.21%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO

4 Atk Lustrous Orb Palkia Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 199-235 (58.18 - 68.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Lustrous Orb Palkia Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 198-234 (49 - 57.92%) -- 56.25% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 136-162 (39.76 - 47.36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO; 43.75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 136-162 (33.66 - 40.09%) -- 33.94% chance to 3HKO

A smart player will just keep their Groudon/Tyra alive throughout the match. They have a much easier time doing this than you keeping Kyogre alive.
 
Kitten Milk said:
I'm not an avid ubers player, but I have used Kingdra quite a lot so I imagine it's somewhat similar. The first option you have is to run ChestoRest over Iron Head + LO, but because Kingdra is so frail in the spectrum of ubers, it's probably not worth it, nor will you find much time to rest. A more pertinent option to maintain your physical set would be running either substitute or yawn. Substitute is useful for getting free DDs, scouting, blocking leech seed/status, etc. etc. Yawn, on the other hand, is a pseudophazing move (although I'm not sold on how good it would be). Finally, you have the option of running a "mixed" set and just putting Draco Meteor or Hydro Pump in that last slot. Even with minimal investment, you're still getting the STAB/rain boost and it can help you break down some physical walls. Furthermore, clicking Draco Meteor isn't as detrimental to your Kingdra when it's not meant to be a full-out special attacker.

Either way though, Iron Head is just awful. There is literally no way that it will ever do more than waterfall or outrage, unless I'm missing something.

(against Water/Ice pokemon) - Iron Head = 160 BP, Waterfall = 90 BP, Outrage = 180 BP
(against hypothetical 4x weak Ice/Rock pokemon) - Iron Head = 320 BP, Waterfall = 360 BP, Outrage = 90 BP

In other words, anything that steel is super effective against is either neutral to dragon or weak to water, making it completely useless.
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It was mostly for the 30% Flinch Chance over 10% of Waterfall. But yeah, DM might be worth throwing on.
 
Blue Jay said:
If anything, this Kyogre is MORE vulnerable. I also don't see why your Kyogre needs to handle other Kyogre; you have six Pokemon for a reason. I agree that a bulky Kyogre may serve you better as you want reliable rain support. However, if you do change Kyogre sets, you will need a new revenge killer (over Mewtwo, because it's currently the least necessary Pokemon on your team). I would propose the following set:

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty/Naive Nature
- U-Turn
- Iron Head
- Explosion
- Ice Beam

Physical Scarfsect is widely regarded as the best Scarf user in the game, and pretty much every team (even full stall) needs a Scarf user.
If you stick with Scarf Kyogre, I recommend that you change to this set:

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 64 HP / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Surf
- Thunder
- Ice Beam

The moveset is simply Scarf Ogre's best. As for the speed investment, all you gain by running max speed is a speed tie with other base 90 Scarf users, most of which either are afraid of you (Ho-Oh/Reshiram) or beat you either way (Dialga/Zekrom).

Regardless of whether or not you change Kyogre sets, you should change to standard Giratina, which doesn't much mind being put to sleep by Darkrai, after which you switch to something that can outspeed and kill it.

On Kingdra, I recommend Draco Meteor > Iron Head, as Iron Head adds very little coverage and Waterfall already has a flinch rate when you need that. Draco Meteor lets you hit threats that don't mind Waterfall hard without locking yourself in, and the -2 doesn't weaken your other attacks at all. After this change, Life Orb will definitely serve you better; it also boosts the power of Draco Meteor, and boosts Kingdra's attacks before it takes a hit that may or may not KO it. The recoil is only a minor downside, as Kingdra is frail by Uber standards anyway.

I'm not sure why you have opted for that particular Rayquaza set. DD Rayquaza is more of an all-or-nothing set up sweeper, and I feel like what your team really wants Rayquaza to do is act as a wallbreaker and a check for opposing Swift Swim sweepers. I recommend either the Mixed Attacker or the Swords Dance set mentioned here. The mixed attacker is a little better for immediate wall-breaking, but the SD set is truly terrifying if it sets up and can sweep unless the opponent packs a revenge killer that can survive its Extremespeed or has his own priority users.

If Mewtwo doesn't end up being replaced, change its Nature to Timid. It's in an elite speed tier where only Deoxys-A/S and scarfs/weather sweepers can outspeed it; take full advantage of that.

I also recommend replacing Protect on Ferrothorn. It's handy, but it can also be used against you, giving the opponent free turns to switch or set up or something. Thunder Wave is great because it prevents Ferrothorn being set up fodder (especially for something like DD Rayquaza, which would run through your team after a set up), but Spikes are also great because hazards rule the metagame.

Also, Arceus-Grass gives your team a lot of trouble. It can check Kyogre/Kingdra very well, often carries Ice Beam to destroy Rayquaza, and Giratina/Ferrothorn won't do anything to it (although it can't do anything to them either).
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That frailty is the biggest problem behind using Life Orb on Kingdra. After taking one hit it won't last but maybe 2 rounds of Life Orb recoil. Not good. A SE hit naturally 1 shots kingdra a lot of the time. And Neutral hits lay some serious pain on too. That's why I stopped using Life Orb. Recoil took him down way too if you only have two hits in and there's three Pokemon to go you're in a world of hurt.

The reason I chose that particular Quaza was because the team was hyper offensive originally and it was one of two set up pokemon. Basically it's outdated, and I'll concede I'd only really found use in using it to deal with weather threats like Exadrill or steel types like Ferrothorn. Now that I've been looking at Quaza I don't normally use it for much besides quick hits anyways. a band might not be a bad idea either... Hmm.

I'll have to do some speed/damage calcs with Mewtwo as well.
 
If you let Kingdra take a hit, then you're doing it wrong.
Your current Kingdra set is meant to be the late game sweeper, so you need to eliminate its checks before.
Without 1.3x boost from life orb, so many thing can wall Kingdra, heck even Tyranitar can come in once to stop your sweep.
Liechi berry isn't reliable at all, the only items you should consider giving Kingdra is Life Orb and Lum Berry.

I highly recommend the MixQuaza set, which can wreck both Groudon and Ferrothorn, two of the biggest counter to Kingdra. It doesn't need setup to hit hard. Opponents will be hard-pressed to check Rayquaza and Kingdra at the same time.

Rayquaza@Life Orb
Trait: Air Lock
Ev: 4Atk/252SpAtk/252Spe
Nature: Naive
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast/V-Create
- Extremespeed
- Outrage
 
Yeah, I'm with cfdu1202 on this one. Liechi berry is really bad, because Kingdra should be simply plowing through opponents late-game, and with the ubiquity of Dragon-types and Dragon-type moves, I really doubt any experienced player is going to be trying to take down Kingdra with resisted moves or neutral moves. Kingdra's base 95 attacking stats are simply too low in Ubers, and it desperately needs the power boost that Life Orb grants. It is simply too frail, and your arguments about it being "just enough for Liechi Berry to activate" really holds no purpose, as it may be worn down by hazards, prior attacks, etc. that will ensure it's KO'd and is unable to consume its berry.

Also, I'd really recommend editing your OP.
Your Kyogre set: running Water Spout on Choice Scarf Kyogre is honestly non-negotiable. Water Spout is Kyogre's best move with both insane power and perfect accuracy, and you can run Water Spout / Thunder / Ice Beam / Surf if you're worried about Water Spout's base power decreasing later on. Mewtwo really should be running a Timid nature, or else it's outsped by Darkrai, and Aura Sphere is simply much better than Focus Blast.

I'm also sort of confused by all the calculations, and I'm not sure what they prove. Sure, calculations are useful, but a lot of them simply won't occur in a good match. It really just boils down to player skill, and personal judgment / prediction.
 
Changed the Giratina Set, and it's helping keep it alive longer.
Bold Giratina @ Leftovers
248 HP EV
252 Def
8 Sp Def
Willo, Roar, Dragon Pulse, Rest
Missing the potential sweeping ability but the ability to consistantly check Physical Arceus is proving helpful.
Trying Banded Quaza at the moment and I'm digging Banded V-Create. Easily deals with Steels, and nothing appreciates switching into one.
Jolly Rayquaza @ Choice Band
252 Atk
4 Sp Def
252 Spe
V-Create
Outrage
Earthquake
Extremespeed
Playing around with Items on Kingdra atm.
Dropped Iron Head for DM, but like Iron Head it doesn't see much use (go figure)
Also tried the HP Ev/Speed EV change on Kyogre. I'm appreciating the extra bulk.
 
Spinda said:
I suggest you keep iron head on kingdra so you keep your coverage on fairy types
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Ignore this. Spinda, do you see any Fairy-types out now? Then don't bring them up, lol. We have no idea what the metagame is going to be like in Gen VI, and whole teams may become obsolete (who knows?), Fairy-types might all suck (who knows?), etc. so just make adjustments to this team based on the current metagame (without Fairy-types).
 
blitzlefan said:
Ignore this. Spinda, do you see any Fairy-types out now? Then don't bring them up, lol. We have no idea what the metagame is going to be like in Gen VI, and whole teams may become obsolete (who knows?), Fairy-types might all suck (who knows?), etc. so just make adjustments to this team based on the current metagame (without Fairy-types).
Click to expand...

Fairies are magical creatures and could appear in the metagame at any given time, it would be ridiculous to assume we don't have to take precautions yet
 
blitzlefan said:
Ignore this. Spinda, do you see any Fairy-types out now? Then don't bring them up, lol. We have no idea what the metagame is going to be like in Gen VI, and whole teams may become obsolete (who knows?), Fairy-types might all suck (who knows?), etc. so just make adjustments to this team based on the current metagame (without Fairy-types).
Click to expand...

Unless there's a fairy type in Gen 6 that somehow resists both Water and Dragon then Iron Head probably won't see much use in Gen 6 either. Besides, they may intro stronger/better water/dragon/steel moves in the 6th.

Spinda said:
Fairies are magical creatures and could appear in the metagame at any given time, it would be ridiculous to assume we don't have to take precautions yet
Click to expand...

Pfft.
 
blitzlefan said:
Yeah, I'm with cfdu1202 on this one. Liechi berry is really bad, because Kingdra should be simply plowing through opponents late-game, and with the ubiquity of Dragon-types and Dragon-type moves, I really doubt any experienced player is going to be trying to take down Kingdra with resisted moves or neutral moves. Kingdra's base 95 attacking stats are simply too low in Ubers, and it desperately needs the power boost that Life Orb grants. It is simply too frail, and your arguments about it being "just enough for Liechi Berry to activate" really holds no purpose, as it may be worn down by hazards, prior attacks, etc. that will ensure it's KO'd and is unable to consume its berry.

Also, I'd really recommend editing your OP.
Your Kyogre set: running Water Spout on Choice Scarf Kyogre is honestly non-negotiable. Water Spout is Kyogre's best move with both insane power and perfect accuracy, and you can run Water Spout / Thunder / Ice Beam / Surf if you're worried about Water Spout's base power decreasing later on. Mewtwo really should be running a Timid nature, or else it's outsped by Darkrai, and Aura Sphere is simply much better than Focus Blast.

I'm also sort of confused by all the calculations, and I'm not sure what they prove. Sure, calculations are useful, but a lot of them simply won't occur in a good match. It really just boils down to player skill, and personal judgment / prediction.
Click to expand...

Mhm, Haven't fully decided on an item for Kingdra yet as I haven't been able to play much because of work and having to travel. I'm even pondering Gem Items because late game he probably won't need more than a single boost to break a key threat down anyways. (Dragon Gem for example.)

I'm risky/reckless/insane using 70% accurate moves I realize but for the sheer number of times I've had mewtwo use it I've only had it miss about a tiny fraction of the time. I guess I'm lucky when using it on Mewtwo or something. I'll take a look and see what happens changing via timid. Modest was for a few reasons including having his damage ratio pushed up just enough to clean up things that Timid couldn't. (A good prediction can end Arceus without even needing to bring Giratina in if it's ExtremeKiller.)

For example: Modest Mewtwo deals around 94.8% - 112% with focus blast to a 4 HP/252 Atk Arceus with Focus Blast before hazards. With bulk invested it's more iffy but the opportunity to 1 shot (esp with hazards) is very tempting. Most of the time Arceus can come in on Mewtwo with impunity. But it does not expect that kind of damage. That's what was going through my mind anyways. (Yes, I am very concerned about Arceus but it can cause a lot of trouble even with Giratina.)

Currently Timid Darkrai only threatening after Kyogre goes down... Unless I play stupidly of course. Thanks to sleep talk Ogre doesn't mind switching in to become sleep fodder and bashing away with sleep talk on it or whatever is daring enough to come in. It also doesn't mind being tricked a scarf as it already has one. Modest Darkrai is easily dealt with by Mewtwo, although it can't switch into a dark pulse.

I have a few ways to deal with Darkrai but... Nothing appreciates sleep. Ferrothorn/Giratina are iffy for sleep fodder at best as they're such key utility Pokemon. (Especially Giratina while Arceus is around as I need it to deal with Physical and set up Arceus with relative ease.)

As to the damage calcs? Overall I do agree and don't normally run them, but I can see how they're useful when figuring out where to place EVs so you can survive things that your opponent didn't think you could. Basically the T-Tar calcs were there to see what exactly it could take and it certainly was a convincing argument to be changing the EV spread.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not writing off your advice. It's merely the reasoning for what I chose and why. I will be doing testing with that... Although I'll concede that Genesect is starting to look rather alluring too.

MasterTotoro said:
Please edit the original post with your current team please. Then it will be easier/possible to rate.
Click to expand...

I hadn't finished rebuilding and figured I'd just post all at once. But... I see your point.
 
If you are running Outrage on Ray, I would recommend Adamant to get certain kills like 2HKO on Groudon and OHKO on Kyogre. A small nit pick would be putting 4 Sdef over 4 Def Evs to give genesect a special boost.
 
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