Tornadus-T (QC 0/3) (WIP)

[alexwolf]

Fuck off Starmie...


[Overview]

• One of the faster mons around. Scarf Tyranitar, Scarf Magnezone, Starmie, Azelf, Dugtrio and Alakazam are all pokes that Tornadus-T outspeeds and Tornadus doesn't
• Flying is arguably the best offensive type in OU, and Tornadus-T gets a powerful 120 move combined with a good 110 SpA stat to abuse it
• Regenerator is a fantastic ability for an offensive mon, allowing it to nullify its SR weakness and LO recoil. It also allows it to be a very good pivot for offensive teams, and is one of the main selling points that Tornadus-T has over Tornadus
• It relies a lot in rain, so if you change the weather, it is significantly easier to deal with
• Has some hard counters that are very common in OU, such as Jirachi and Blissey

[SET]
name: Life Orb
move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Superpower / Focus Blast
move 3: U-turn
move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Tailwind / Taunt
item: Life Orb
ability: Regenerator
nature: Naive / Timid
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Difficult to outspeed without a Scarf, the only poke that is able to, in OU, is Jolteon
• Doesn't care a lot about residual damage due to Regenerator
• Hurricane to wreck stuff
• FB and Superpower for coverage on Rocks and Steels. Flying + Fighting give perfect neutral coverage in OU, except from Thundurus-T
• U-turn allows favorable match-ups, and works well with Regenerator
• Hidden Power Ground enables Tornadus-T to possible 3HKO SpD Jirachi after SR. Just be sure that they don't carry Thunder or Protect, and that the chances of 3HKOing Jirachi are really small, as he will most likely para flinch you to death.
• Taunt stops set-up from pokes such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Deoxys-D, etc.
• Tailwind in conjunction with U-turn allows Tornadus-T to pass a 2-turn Agility to a teammate

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Obvious EVs are obvious, use Timid if using FB, or Naive if using Superpower
• Superpower ohkoes Tyranitar 100% of the time and has perfect accuracy, while also 2hkoing specially defensive Heatran after SR. Focus Blast hits harder pokes such as Magnezone, Ferrothorn and OHKOes offensive Heatran after SR, while also keeping your respectable special bulk
• Heat Wave is also an option in the last 2 slots, to 2hko specially defensive Jirachi outside of rain, 2hko Ferrothorn in rain much more reliably than FB, and ohko him outside of rain, and ohko-2hko other steels as well outside of rain
• Hidden Power Ice to ohko any Dragonite and Thundurus-T after SR, and Gliscor
• Air Slash is viable as well for the last 2 slots, as it can be used when rain is not up, or on Sun teams
• Jirachi, Specially Defensive Skarmory and Chansey/Blissey counter Tornadus-T, so strong physical attackers and pokes that can handle Jirachi and Skarmory are good partners, such as Ferrothorn, Heatran, Terrakion, Haxorus, Lucario, etc.
• Scizor, Mamoswine, Rotom-W, Jolteon and Thundurus-T are also decent checks. Skamory and Forretress can handle Scizor and Mamoswine, while Gastrodon and Ferrothorn can handle most electric types decently

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Focus Blast
move 3: U-turn
move 4: Air Slash / Heat Wave
item: Choice Specs
ability: Regenerator
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Choice Specs works very nice with Regenerator, as you don't have to predict as much
• Lack of LO recoil also makes Tornadus-T last way longer, since the LO variant already loses more than Regenerator can recover after SR and 1 LO round
• Hurricane is a nuke! Even some resistors such as Rotom-W and offensive Heatran can be 2HKOed after SR. Offensive Dragonite and Gyarados are also OHKOed after SR.
• Focus Blast for coverage
• U-turn for scouting
• Air Slash to have a reliable STAB move outside of rain
• Heat Wave to 2HKO Jirachi and Bronzong outside of rain, and Ferrothorn in rain, while OHKOing it outside rain

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Max SpA and Speed to be fast and hit hard
• Sleep Talk works beautiful with U-turn and Regenerator along with the fact that Tornadus-T can come into the 3 most common sleep inducers in OU (Breloom, Amoonguus, Roserade)
• Hidden Power Ground to 3hko Specially defensive Jirachi, 2hko Metagross and ohko Heatran after SR and Spikes
• Hidden Power Ice is an option too for Dragonite and Thundurus-T
• Jirachi and Blissey/Chansey are counters
• Strong physical attackers and steels handle the above
• Any Steel type that can take a Hurricane is a decent check, such as Heatran, Bronzong, SpDefensive Skarmory, Magnezone and Metagross
• Scarfers and priority are good checks too

[Other Options]

• Physical / Mixed Tornadus-T with Bulk Up / Acrobatics / Superpower / Heat Wave or Sub or U-turn with Flying Gem. Or even a 4 attacks mixed set
• Rain Dance for weather control and Knock Off to cripple stuff
• A max HP / max Speed set so that Tornadus-T can act better as a defensive pivot, while still having respectable offensive presence
• That's it i think

[Checks and Counters]

• Jirachi, Blissey and Chansey are counters
• Rotom-W, Jolteon, Heatran, Scizor, Mamoswine, Bronzong, specially defensive Skarmory, Metagross, Thundurus and scarf users in general are good checks

 

[Jirachee]

To me Substitute really deserves a mention somewhere, because it's really effective. With Regenerator healing you everytime you switch out, it's useful to scout the moveset something has and can really save your life. Tornadus has the speed to use it effectively. I've used it on a set with Hurricane, U-turn, and Focus Blast @ Life Orb, so I guess you could fit it in the third slot. Sleep Talk, to me at least, seems to be only there to make it an overspecialized Breloom counter; it's great, but I don't think it really deserves a place on the analysis.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Hey Alex.

So the QC team and I talked about Tornadus-T a while ago, and we decided that specially offensive Tornadus should be divided into two sets: Life Orb and Choice Specs. This is mainly because the two play differently from each other to warrant their own separate places on the analysis, and fusing them together would result in major slashitis. For instance, Superpower and Taunt see little application with Choice Specs, while Sleep Talk doesn't really have a place on an offensive Life Orb set that can afford to use other options.

Therefore, I would recommend defusing the current set you have into these:

[SET]
name: Life Orb
move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Superpower / Focus Blast
move 3: U-turn
move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Ice / Rain Dance
item: Life Orb
ability: Regenerator
nature: Naive / Timid
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Focus Blast
move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Sleep Talk
move 4: U-turn / Sleep Talk
item: Choice Specs
ability: Regenerator
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

You have the right to question any of the moveslots above. However, I won't budge on the sets being separate.

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah i agree with you AG, it is just that i talked with a QC member a few hours ago, and he said that it would be better to make one set. But if you say that the QC team decided to separate them, then better for me. Adding your sets...

EDIT: In the LO set, i put FB first instead of Superpower because i think that overall it is the best option for 2 reasons. With FB Tornadus-T can ohko Magnezone, and 2hko Ferrothorn, Rotom-W and specially defensive Skarmory. Also when using Naive you sacrifice special bulk, and Torandus-T has respectable special bulk, as, for example it can switch into anything a special Virizion can throw (LO HP Ice doesn't ohko), and ohko back. Tornadus-T can even act as a Volcarona check, as Rain Volcarona cannot ohko Torandus-T with Hurricane at +1 without SR and LO, while Tornadus-T has a 58% chance to ohko back with Hurricane. It can even come into LO Zam if SR is not up and ohko back (LO Psychic does 72.24 - 85.28%). But with Naive all these useful little things are lost. Finally with the Defense drop you get forced out much easier (very minor but still).

I removed HP Ground and Rain Dance as i find them too situational (HP Ground solely for Heatran, and Rain Dance for Ninetales) and added Taunt, which can be put in good use by Tornadus-T with his awesome speed and Regenerator, which means that it can even take a Gyro Ball from Ferrothron if the need arises in order to prevent hazards, and switch out to heal. Also with Taunt, he actively helps his life spawn, as it can prevent many SR setters from using it (Heatran, Ferrothron, Deoxys-D, Skarmory, Forretress).

Also on the specs set, i slashed HP Ice and Sleep Talk in the last slot, and put U-turn alone in the 3rd slot, because U-turn is vital, and when using Sleep Talk you need U-turn to be successful, since with it you have a 66% chance of doing something very useful (Hurricane or U-turn).

 

[Nachos]

I find that the Rain Dance set for BW1 Tornadus works better than the Life Orb set listed in the OP. At 121 Base speed, Tornadus-T is pretty much the fastest thing in OU when you don't take priority/scarfers into account. For that reason, getting off a Tailwind or a Rain Dance is 'somewhat' easy. Superpower should be first slash over Focus Blast in this case though, a 100% accurate chance to KO Tyranitar is amazing. You should also mention in the overview that it's the fastest thing in OU as well.

Heat Wave should 100% be slashed on Specs. Jirachi/Bronzong is this thing's main counter, and now it has a move to deal with them. You're obviously not going to be using it in Rain, but those two are usually used in Sand, a Heat Wave on them in sandstorm is going to do a lot of damage, especially if Spikes are up in Jirachi's case. It's not like Tornadus-T has anything else worthwhile to put over it anyway.

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Just as a AA perhaps I'd like to Suggest Tailwind. With U-Turn and Regenerator he makes probably the best candidate for setting up tailwind in the game.

Often times people say the worst aspects of the other Therian forms is their new speed, this changes that with +2 allowing you to run bulkier, or + attack natures. It's also extremely beneficial to Pokemon like Haxorus, Dragonite, Lucario, etc. A Choice Banded Haxorus isn't anything to laugh at in normal circumstances, with tailwind it can be downright scary. The plus side is, U-Turn obviously allows you to put in the most beneficial Pokemon allowing you to nuke said the opponents Pokemon, or hit whatever they switch in hard as well. Only with a + attacking nature, and +2 speed.

With Regenerator, U-Turn, slightly above average defenses, and that absolutely amazing speed, it makes it extremely easy to set up Tailwind multiple times.

I'm not an amazing player by any means, but the sheer power that having tailwind lets you abuse has won me many matches, and without a doubt T-T is the best user of Tailwind in the game.

 

[Electrolyte]

I think you should add a physical/mixed set. While Nadus's attack is no way as good as its special, it does have superb coverage and a great boosting move.

 

[Rakan]

Substitute should really be slashed onto the fourth moveslot. I've used it a lot, and it's come in handy against those Thunder Waves and Toxics, not to mention you can more easily scout your opponent's moveset. With Regenerator, the health lost from using Substitute is easily regained.

 

[alexwolf]

I find that the Rain Dance set for BW1 Tornadus works better than the Life Orb set listed in the OP. At 121 Base speed, Tornadus-T is pretty much the fastest thing in OU when you don't take priority/scarfers into account. For that reason, getting off a Tailwind or a Rain Dance is 'somewhat' easy. Superpower should be first slash over Focus Blast in this case though, a 100% accurate chance to KO Tyranitar is amazing. You should also mention in the overview that it's the fastest thing in OU as well.

Heat Wave should 100% be slashed on Specs. Jirachi/Bronzong is this thing's main counter, and now it has a move to deal with them. You're obviously not going to be using it in Rain, but those two are usually used in Sand, a Heat Wave on them in sandstorm is going to do a lot of damage, especially if Spikes are up in Jirachi's case. It's not like Tornadus-T has anything else worthwhile to put over it anyway.

I don't get though, why you would want to set-up a Rain Dance. Tyranitar wouldn't come into Tornadus-T anyway, so the only target you have left is Ninetales. Or you could even better use U-turn against Ninetales and go straight to Politoed. Rain Dance is not worth it imo, but if other QC members insist on putting it on the main set i will.

Tailwind, on the the other hand, is simply awesome! As Fhaol Bing said, U-turn + Tailwind + Regenerator is such an awesome combo. I am definitely slashing it in the 4th slot!

About Superpower... I already gave my opinion. I will wait for the input of more people on this one.

Finally Heat Wave could get a slash but it seems very situational. It can hurt Jirachi, but only outside of rain, and if rain is not up, why you have Tornadus-T in anyway? Sleep Talk and HP Ice are usually better imo. Again waiting for more input.

@Omicron and Jirachi

Yeah Sub is a great option, but i am afraid of having too many slashes on the last slot. As of now i am thinking of removing HP Ice from the last slot, since it has very little use, and put Substitute / Taunt / Tailwind. What are your thoughts?

 

[Rakan]

Yea, HP Ice is pretty much useless when Hurricane hits almost everything harder with the exception of those 4x weak to Ice, which are hit hard enough by Hurricane anyway. HP Ice is really unnecessary on Tornadus when you have great coverage already.

 

[col49]

In my experiences, Acrobling is still a very solid set. On top of the extra speed it has over classic Tornadus, Regenerator allows it much more leniency in setting up, allowing it to scout around with Substitute before utilizing his gem, getting instant Sub recovery upon switching out. On top of this, the extra bulk allows him the distinct benefits of staying in attacks such as Scizor's Bullet Punch (who is never OHKOed after SR with an investment of 24 Def EVs) without much to worry about. Plus it retains the ability to lure in and KO dedicated special walls like Chansey (who isn't 2HKOed by minimally invested LO Superpower).

 

[kokoloko]

Please no Acroshit set...

As for the OP, you need to emphasize why you would use Therian over regular Tornadus more. It's not just Starmie, but Scarf Magnezone, Scarf Tyranitar, Dugtrio, Alakzam, and Azelf that you now outspeed. Regenerator allows it to use Life Orb freely, reducing the need for prediction (further aided by the fact that you /always/ outspeed Tyranitar).

On the LO set, Hidden Power Ground should definitely be the first slash, followed by Substitute and nothing else (ok, maybe Taunt, I've used that too). It 3HKOs SpD Jirachi, meaning if you hit it on the switch, it doesn't get a chance to Wish up unless it actually carries Protect and also 2HKOs SpD Heatran (something Superpower can't do iirc).

 

[alexwolf]

@Kokoloko

Added the pokes that Tornadus-T outspeeds and Tornadus doesn't.

I am not really sure about HP Ground. Heatran is 2hkoed by Superpower after SR anyway (99,6% of the time, 100% of the time if you run 8 Atk evs instead of 4).

So the only target would be Jirachi, which is ok, but it doesn't quite beat it too. Chances are it will paralyze you with Body Slam, and then flinch you to death before you get a chance to kill him. Of 'course a 40% (the chance for Body Slam to not paralyze you) chance to beat your biggest counter is nice, but this is the only use. Not to mention that many Jirachi carry Thunder... Or Protect... So you only 3hko IF Jirachi doesn't run Thunder or IF he doesn't run Protect or IF he doesn't paralyze you with Body Slam. That's a lot of ifs. Unless i see very good reasoning as to why it should be included, for now HP Ground goes to AC.

 

[Ojama]

Didn't read the previous posts so im probably going to say something that has been already said. Why Sleep Talk on the Choice Specs Set ? Lol, thats a pretty bad move on it especially on a choice set. Use Heat Wave over Sleep Talk since it can hit Jirachi, its best counter with chansey / blissey.

Same for the Lif Orb Set. Substitute is a good move but it doesnt work with U-Turn so you have to slash both uturn and substitute with Heat Wave. DONT FORGET THIS MOVE. Jirachi is its best counter and with it you can destroy it so why not use it ?

Tornadus-T@Life Orb
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Heat Wave / Hidden Power Ground
- U-Turn / Substitute

Also, HP Ground works over Heat Wave (rain etc)

 

[PK Gaming]

Superpower is a clear choice over Focus blast. The advantages that Focus Blast are null when you realize that Superpower is capable of OHKOing Tyranitar (w/o chople berry) & has 100% accuracy. The advantages that you listed for Focus Blast aren't really impressive; Magnezone is 2HKOed by Hurricane + Superpower on average, Rotom-W is 2HKOed by Hurricane + Superpower on average (assuming it has 128 hp... its always 2HKOed if its not running bulk) which is higher than Focus Blasts ~50% chance of landing of twice in a row. Physically defensive Skarmory is taking (49.4% - 58.4%) from Hurricane which is a clean 2HKO after rocks. Really Focus Blast shouldn't even get a slash (let alone be the main one)

The 4th moveslot is filled with filler moves. I'm in complete agreement with Nachos here; Rain Dance is incredible on Tornadus-T because if Politoed goes down, you're capable of changing the momentum at any time by invoking Rain Dance. Tyranitar (more often than you'd think) is brought into Tornadus because there are times where your opponent has nothing else to bring in. Furthermore, Tyranitar can always be brought in on a KO from the opponent side, so being able to Rain Dance was Tyranitar predictably switches away is a valuable trump. I'm going to be blunt here. Substitute is absolutely worthless on Tornadus-T and i'm baffled as to why you decided to include it. Tornadus-T is the type of Pokemon that is always capable of applying the pressure to opposing teams and switching on a dime with U-turn due to its absurd speed. It doesn't need Substitute to scout ahead or cushion hits because its always putting the opponent on the defensive with its sheer combination of power & speed. So yeah, that move has got to go.

This is how I'd personally structure the Tornadus-T set:

name: Life Orb
move 1: Hurricane
move 2: Superpower / Focus Blast
move 3: U-turn
move 4: Rain Dance / Hidden Power Ground / Tailwind (with HP Ice & Taunt in AC)*Also mention Heat Wave against steel types when it isn' training.
item: Life Orb
ability: Regenerator
nature: Naive / Timid
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

It's a little different from the set AG posted, (I changed my perspective on Rain Dance since we last talked about Tornadus-T) but yeah this (or AGs) is the LO set I want to see onsite. I won't approve this analysis otherwise.

The specs set is fine.

 

[Ojama]

So you'd want to use superpower cause it has 100% of accuracy ? No, thats not an argument. Rotom-W is 2HKO'ed by Hurricane + Focus Blast lol, same for Magnezone. I do agree with Rain Dance but HP Ground should be the first move for the 4th move.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Thing is though, Superpower is much better against Tyranitar. You don't have to worry about a Focus Miss miss, and I think Specially defensive Tyranitar can actually live a Focus Blast, while it isn't taking a Superpower at all, not taking Chople Berry or anything into account. This I believe is why Superpower should be slashed before Focus Blast. Also, I believe Superpower is better against the pink blobs.

 

[PK Gaming]

So you'd want to use superpower cause it has 100% of accuracy ? No, thats not an argument. Rotom-W is 2HKO'ed by Hurricane + Focus Blast lol, same for Magnezone. I do agree with Rain Dance but HP Ground should be the first move for the 4th move.

You're arguing in favor of a mindset that accuracy doesn't matter. We all know how unreliable Focus Blast is (that goes without saying) but when you also consider the fact that Superpower accomplishes most of what Focus Blast can, and more (ohkoing tyranitar is kind of a big deal) then what exactly is the point to using Focus Blast? And why did you completely disregard the fact that Superpower can do the exact same, but it doesn't need to suffer the indignity of missing.

The 4th slot is a tomato & tomata type situation. I've already stated that AGs suggestion sits right with me so I wouldn't be opposed HP ground going over Rain Dance. Superpower should absolutely go over Focus Blast, and there's nothing that proves otherwise.

 

[Ojama]

SDef Tyranitar isn't extremely used now and aren't we talking about the LO Set ? Doesnt it have U-Turn which is super effective against Tyranitar ? With SR + U-Turn, Tyranitar couldnt take a focus blast. And stop with this argument "it can miss", stop using fblast on every Pokémon in this case.

 

[PK Gaming]

Please keep in mind that you still haven't given me (and everyone else) proper reason to use Focus Blast over Superpower. At not point in my argument did I specify SpD Tyranitar; I was referring to 252/0 Tyranitar. If Superpower can OHKO every variant of Tyranitar, and Focus Blast can't then what is the point of using Focus Blast? Hax has always will be a big deal. This is something that has been proven empirically time and time again. Why are you saying Superpowers perfect accuracy over Focus Blast is irrelevant?

In the end, it's in the player's best interest to avoid unnecesarry risks as much as possible. It's not unfair for me to say that Focus Blast is useless on Tornadus and turn around say its useful on Gengar because the benefits of such a move is much more pronounced in Gengar's case. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

To summarize:
-Superpower is useful on Tornadus-T
-Focus Blast is useless / outclassed by Focus Blast. What is the point of using Focus Blast (aside from avoiding the minor drop in SpD because the naive nature)

 

[alexwolf]

As it seems the general consensus is to put Superpower first, and remove Sub from the last slot while adding Hidden Power Ground and Rain Dance. I will do everything except from making Rain Dance a main option for the last set, as i want to discuss about it a little more.

@PK

You say that Ttar is very often brought into Tornadus-T, because many teams don't have a better answer, and i have to say that this argument is pretty weak. If a team's best answer to T-T is Ttar then the team probably sucks anyway. Which serious sand team would risk losing their weather inducer when the opposing Toed is still alive, under normal circumstances? None. Yes Ttar can be brought in after something dies, but there is a better option that using Rain Dance while Ttar switches out... U-turn out to the appropriate answer, and go to Politoed if you can to bring perma-rain back. You still clearly have the advantageous match-up if the opponent sends in his Ttar after you kill something, so no big deal, imo.

The only good argument that i have heard in favor of RD, is that if Toed dies, you can still abuse rain. And i have to ask this....Wouldn't the same be true for rain abusing 4 attacks Thundurus-T? Because when rain is not up his main STAB (Thunders) has also 70% acc in sand and 50% acc in sun. And Thundurus-T also doesnt have moveslot issues, as electric + ice + fighting = perfect coverage. Yet i haven't seen anyone mention the use of Rain Dance on Thundurus-T.

And anyway if Rain Dance's only real use is to set-up your weather if your inducer is dead, why not simply mention it in AC? Venusaur barely got a Sunny Day analysis, and this because he gets Chlorophyll to abuse it, alongside with a boosted HP Fire and Solarbeam. While Tornadus-T gets what? A 30% acc increase in one move? This doesn't seem so great honestly.

Anyway, if PK and Nachos think that putting RD in the 4th slot is an absolute decision, that cannot be changed then i will add it. But if they are not, i say let's wait for a bit more input on this one

Finally i want to ask again PK, what is the real use of HP Ground except from the very unlikely 3hko on Jirachi? Is this move real worth it especially when you have to lose the utility of other moves and the speed ties with other Tornadus-T? For me no, but i have alrdy added it, as you said, i just want to see your reasoning.

@Ojama

Here is why Sleep Talk is good on the Specs set:

Hide

Also Sleep Talk is a very viable choice for 4 reasons.

First of all, and more important, Tornadus doesn't fear the 2 most common sleep inducers in OU, which means he can come in with almost zero risk.

Second, he doesn't have many viable options for the 4th slot, which means that you don't give up anything important to run Sleep Talk.

Third, he has Regenerator, which means that even if he gets forced out when asleep, it doesn't really care because he doesn't lose any life, unlike normal Tornadus.

And lastly, all 3 of his moves are not bad moves even if randomly chosen. When asleep you have a 66% chance of either hitting very hard with Hurricane or simply U-turn out, and both are good. Even if you chose Focus Blast we are still talking about an 120 BP coverage move with a good typing. Also the fact that Sleep Talk randomly selects your move means that your opponent cannot predict you at all. He cannot bring in his Ttar as he could have done if you were awake and he predicted the Hurricane, since U-turn and FB both hurt. He cannot safely bring in his own Tornadus predicting the FB, because both Hurricane and U-turn hurt... And the same happens with any check of Tornadus. Obviously counters don't care, but you still have a 33% chance to use U-turn which still gives you the upper hand, if you don't want to switch out manually.

Heat Wave is in AC because Tornadus-T likes to be in rain.

 

[Ojama]

If you use superpower, you'll get a minus in defense or special defense which sucks tbh. In addition, after using superpower you'll be at -1 in atk and -1 in def. If its your last Pokemon that will suck especially if you need either to take a bullet punch or either to kill your opponent with superpower.

 

[PK Gaming]

If you use superpower, you'll get a minus in defense or special defense which sucks tbh. In addition, after using superpower you'll be at -1 in atk and -1 in def. If its your last Pokemon that will suck especially if you need either to take a bullet punch or either to kill your opponent with superpower.

The pros far outweight the cons when using Superpower though, that much is undeniable. BTW Naive is almost exclusively used because don't want a -def down nature because of the rampant amounts of priority flying around in OU. Your anecdote can be counted by mine. What if you're facing a weakened Ferrothorn and you need to land a Focus Blast to win?

It would be fine to agree to disagree if 2 opposing opinions were equally valid to a degree, but in this case Superpower is just straight up better than HP ground.

As it seems the general consensus is to put Superpower first, and remove Sub from the last slot while adding Hidden Power Ground and Rain Dance. I will do everything except from making Rain Dance a main option for the last set, as i want to discuss about it a little more.

There's not really much to discuss tbh. Rain Dance > Taunt utility and Tailwind (the latter is really only useful when Tornadus dies when it uses it)

 

[alexwolf]

PK i respect your opinion, but i would like to see your reasoning. We are still only 2 weeks on the BW2 meta, so discussion wouldn't hurt, don't you think?

First of all i don't get why you say that Tailwind is only useful for when Tornadus-T will die. Take these scenarios for example... My opponent has a Scarf Rotom-W / Jolteon / Scarf Thundurus-T / Jirachi (of unknown identity, could be a scarf variant). By using Tailwind on the switch, you are now faster than everything in OU, and can U-turn to a check/counter, while also giving to whatever poke comes in a 2 turn boost! Pretty neat no?

Also Taunt is a very nice utility move and we all know the value of a fast Taunt. Do you want an answer to Deoxsy-D, DS Azelf, DS Uxie, etc, which are all pokes found on hyper offensive teams. Taunt does the job. Do you want to prevent the opposing TR Reuniclus from setting up and running through your fragile offensive team? Taunt again. Do you want to prevent the opposing lead Skarmory from setting up? Taunt.

Anyway i told you my reasons. I think that both Taunt and Tailwind are very good utility moves, and the best for the 4th slot.

Now i want to hear your reasoning about RD and HP Ground.

 

[PK Gaming]

You say that Ttar is very often brought into Tornadus-T, because many teams don't have a better answer, and i have to say that this argument is pretty weak. If a team's best answer to T-T is Ttar then the team probably sucks anyway. Which serious sand team would risk losing their weather inducer when the opposing Toed is still alive, under normal circumstances? None. Yes Ttar can be brought in after something dies, but there is a better option that using Rain Dance while Ttar switches out... U-turn out to the appropriate answer, and go to Politoed if you can to bring perma-rain back. You still clearly have the advantageous match-up if the opponent sends in his Ttar after you kill something, so no big deal, imo.

I don't see why you zeroed into this part of my post. It wasn't the crux of my argument and I explicitly stated "more often than you'd think" which wasn't meant to be at face value. There are several reasons why you would want to use Rain Dance (such as avoiding LO recoil, bringing rain up without the use of Politoed, which can be useful in hazards are up) you can't blinfly assume that every scenario in a battle plays out the same.

The only good argument that i have heard in favor of RD, is that if Toed dies, you can still abuse rain. And i have to ask this....Wouldn't the same be true for rain abusing 4 attacks Thundurus-T? Because when rain is not up his main STAB (Thunders) has also 70% acc in sand and 50% acc in sun. And Thundurus-T also doesnt have moveslot issues, as electric + ice + fighting = perfect coverage. Yet i haven't seen anyone mention the use of Rain Dance on Thundurus-T.

Are you completely oblivious to fact this thread has nothing to do with Thundurus-T? You're writing an analysis for Tornadus-T remember?

And anyway if Rain Dance's only real use is to set-up your weather if your inducer is dead, why not simply mention it in AC? Venusaur barely got a Sunny Day analysis, and this because he gets Chlorophyll to abuse it, alongside with a boosted HP Fire and Solarbeam. While Tornadus-T gets what? A 30% acc increase in one move? This doesn't seem so great honestly.

Because the ability to switch off opposing weathers in the BW OU metagame is pretty huge, especially on a Pokemon such as Tornadus-T (where most of its other options aren't even that much better). It absolutely deserves than just a mention in AC. It's as simple as that. Hurricane getting boosted to 30% shouldn't be underestimated either.

Anyway, if PK and Nachos think that putting RD in the 4th slot is an absolute decision, that cannot be changed then i will add it. But if they are not, i say let's wait for a bit more input on this one

It's a decision that we the QC team decided on in unison (though my order conflicts with AGs) so yes it should be included.

Finally i want to ask again PK, what is the real use of HP Ground except from the very unlikely 3hko on Jirachi? Is this move real worth it especially when you have to lose the utility of other moves and the speed ties with other Tornadus-T? For me no, but i have alrdy added it, as you said, i just want to see your reasoning.

It pretty much has to do with the state of the metagame. Everyone and their mothers are using Jirachi to check Tornadus-T so getting substantial damage on is always welcomed.

Apparently you decided to post more... what a wonderful world this is ♪

PK i respect your opinion, but i would like to see your reasoning. We are still only 2 weeks on the BW2 meta, so discussion wouldn't hurt, don't you think?

First of all i don't get why you say that Tailwind is only useful for when Tornadus-T will die. Take these scenarios for example... My opponent has a Scarf Rotom-W / Jolteon / Scarf Thundurus-T / Jirachi (of unknown identity, could be a scarf variant). By using Tailwind on the switch, you are now faster than everything in OU, and can U-turn to a check/counter, while also giving to whatever poke comes in a 2 turn boost! Pretty neat no?

Honestly no. QC didn't really go over Tailwind, but the general consensus was that Rain Dance > Tailwind. (Tailwind sees more use on regular Tornadus tbh)

Also Taunt is a very nice utility move and we all know the value of a fast Taunt. Do you want an answer to Deoxsy-D, DS Azelf, DS Uxie, etc, which are all pokes found on hyper offensive teams. Taunt does the job. Do you want to prevent the opposing TR Reuniclus from setting up and running through your fragile offensive team? Taunt again. Do you want to prevent the opposing lead Skarmory from setting up? Taunt.

Tornadus-T is better off attacking. I can think of only a few pokemon you'd even want to see Taunt (Blissey / Chansey) and they aren't really that common. The other Pokemon you've mentioned are fairly uncommon by OU standards. I don't think its worth running Taunt to deal with uncommon variants of certain Pokemon. Deoxys-D is beatdown by Hurricane (It's almost an inevitability that Deoxys-D will set up at least one set of hazards so I don't see it as that big of a deal if it lays one layer of spikes/ stealth rock) & Reuniclus takes a ridiculous amount of damage should it dare to set up a TR in Tornadus-T's face.

Anyway i told you my reasons. I think that both Taunt and Tailwind are very good utility moves, and the best for the 4th slot.

Now i want to hear your reasoning about RD and HP Ground.

See above. They're niche moves and they don't see much use in your average battle.