Toxic Spikes

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Toxic Spikes does make it useful for people with Guts to get their ass in and sweep. Loom also no longer needs to wait one turn for Toxic Orb to activate. ._.
 
Breludicolo said:
You have never ever played with forretress ever have you

It's called payback
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Payback got a nerf as well. It no longer has double damage on a switch-in. I'd run Gyro Ball from there on. Even then, Gyro Ball would do more damage than a Payback, and hits other Pokemon for more damage. Since Rotom-A is no longer a Ghost, there's no harm in using Gyro Ball instead of Payback.
 
UnhandledException said:
the most common spin-blocker, burungel, is resistant to gyro ball and weak to payback. so there.
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LOL once Jellicent burns Forry with WoW or Boiling Water, Payback's not gonna do shit to it. And it can recover in Forry's face. Besides, why would you leave it in on Jellicent anyway?
 
Toxic Spikes I personally think has lost its usefulness this gen, its almost always better to simply pack Toxic itself. The increased viability of useful poison types to absorb the TS and also introduction of Magic Mirror, more Magic Guard/Guts users, Spikes immune pokemon and Magic Coats buff has made Toxic Spikes rather unviable.
 
Toxic Spikes is in most situations not very useful: in the relatively offensive metagame it would do better to have spikes and stealth rock for instant damage.

However, bulky setup and stall are where toxic spikes really shines. For example if you NEED something to take damage from something other than sandstorm. Like if you are using CM Reinclus or Lvl2 Nosepass. But overall there are a LOT of steels and levitators, for example on my most recent team only one thing got poisoned by toxic spikes.
 
For the purposes of teambuilding, here is a list of "OU pokemon" (PO wifi usage list) who are affected by Toxic Spikes (Japanese names sorry):
Tyranitar
Garchomp
Roobushin*
Politoed
Kingdra
Blaziken
Burungeru
Starmie**
Hippowdon
Infernape
Vaporeon
Swampert
Ninetales
Blissey**
Breloom*
Ulgamoth
Cloyster
Espeon**
Ludicolo
Jolteon
Ononokusu
Machamp
Electivire
Zuruzukin
Erufuun
Hihidaruma
Shandera
Weavile
Terakion
Porygon2
Abomasnow
Snorlax**
Kojondo
Arcanine
Birijion
Milotic
Kabutops
Mamoswine
Dusknoir
Chansey**
Suicune**
Gallade
Umbreon
Donphan
Blastoise
Celebi**
Alakazam
Mew
Azumarill
Sceptile
Hitmontop
Froslass
Slowbro
(im stopping here because the rest arent common!)

(*) - pokemon that benefit from poison status
(**) - pokemon who are affected but commonly run moves/abilities to get around it

In my opinion it is defensive threats that Toxic Spikes should be used to dispose of. I have narrowed down the list above to common defensive OU threats:

Tyranitar
Garchomp
Burungeru
Starmie**
Hippowdon
Vaporeon
Swampert
Blissey**
Ludicolo
Erufuun
Porygon2
Snorlax**
Birijion
Milotic
Dusknoir
Chansey**
Suicune**
Donphan
Celebi**
Mew
Slowbro

Toxic Spikes clearly helps some sweepers more than others. Obviously, Special sweepers have a much easier time with Blissey/Chansey with TS on the field; In terms of physical/mixed sweepers it's probably easier to list the physically defensive threats who AREN'T affected:
Gliscor
Skarmory
Nattorei
Gyarados
Dragonite
Metagross
Rotom
Zapdos
Bronzong

4 of these pokemon have a Fire weakness, another 3 have an Ice weakness. An ideal pairing would be to use Toxic Spikes in conjunction with a physical attacker who can deal with the above threats relatively easily, and lures the TS-weak pokemon listed above. Consider a Mixed Tyranitar with the following moveset: Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Stone Edge/Crunch. All of the TS-resistant physically defensive pokemon are hit for hard damage, and physical defenders such as Hippowdon, Swampert, Garchomp etc are worn down by TS.
 
monkfish said:
For the purposes of teambuilding, here is a list of "OU pokemon" (PO wifi usage list)
Click to expand...

I stopped reading right there.

PO tiers are not the next best thing; they suck.

Notice the appearance of:

lolStarmie (EDIT: if you have a choice between dory, who has 135 base attack, and starmie, who has 100 base attack, and there are few entry hazards in the metagame in general, which do you pick to get rid of them? Starmie sucks; it's sad I have to defend this)
lolInfernape
lolDUSKNOIR

goddamn this is really a reputable list eh?

Anyway the only real threats you need to watch for are Landlos, Gliscor, Scizor, and Nattorei. They are the few pokemon that resist toxic spikes that matter (also annoying since they resist SS too). rain Manaphy I guess but it doesn't count entirely...

The odd tentacruel, Rotom-W, and Nidoking are also irritating.

(btw thanks for showing that tierlist; I laughed my ass off at landlos at number 40 and togekiss being far above it... there are lots of other hilarious bits, like Gochiruzeru being below Magikarp, castform being above Rotom-S, Maggyo above Rotom-F, Electrode above Rotom-C, Rotom being above three of its alternate forms, Freezio being over Deo-D, fucking shedinja (where the second most common pokemon is T-tar no less) over DEOXYS N, etc.)
 
Toxic Spikes do have their niche, but it is simply different compared to last gen.

The resurgence of slow, bulky stat boosters means that Toxic Spikes would normally be quite effective, the only problem is that these pokemon have a way around status in general. Rohbshin has Guts, Reuniclus has Magic Guard, Zuruzukin has ShedRest, Suicune has ResTalk, etc.

Their purpose now is to target specific threats (for example Blissey) for another sweeper to more easily overcome, or to provide residual damage in general. And given the constant switching and ease of setting up Spikes/Stealth Rock, it is hard to justify using it for residual damage purposes over the other two entry hazards.
 
Toxic spikes suffers from the general lack of good users, the difficulty in getting 2 layers set up and the ease of which it is removed. With most people opting to use nattorei over forry, tentacruel is really the only pokemon I've ever seen use toxic spikes now. And with pure stall being increasingly difficult to play, it just isn't too viable to spend the turns setting them up only to have a poison type come in or have 4/6 of your opponent's team not even be affected.
 
Toxic spikes are the best entry hazards for offensive teams. They gradually break down stall's dedicated walls and force them to waste turns to spin them away as you muscle through blissey/chansey/burungeru/vap/etc. They also put a real damper on things that rely on boosting and then ChestoResting, as it limits the boosts they can accumulate before they're forced to rest and sweep (I'm looking at you, bulky ulgamoth). I think tspikes+sableye are a force that will completely stop all stall, if you decide to run them in tandem, as they're completely stuck against the stalling pressure you can put on them while spinblocking, while also being able to wisp dorry/forry/tentacruel, the spinners that aren't affected by toxic spikes.
 
I play PO all the time using this on Drapion.
Toxic Spikes/Whirlwind/Rest (Chesto)/Crunch
With only defensive EV's and Careful nature.
Just as capable.
 
toxic spikes is perhaps the most annoying move ever to face, and a godsend for the stall teams that need to free up moves from toxic to wish, or other, more useful moves.
i had a miltank, with leftovers, mild-drink, body-slam, protect,and heal bell (it has scrappy). it could take attacks well, and use milk drink/protect to stall out once poisoned and be a cleric with heal bell. it's ability to stall would be severly limited if toxic spikes weren't down.
Btw, it had a careful nature, 252 hp evs, 176 spdef evs, and 84 def evs. gave in bulk and maxed out use of milk drink.
 
One thing I have to admit that has improved the possibility of using Toxic Spikes this Gen is Battle Preview.

One of the most annoying things back in 4th Gen was getting up 2 layers of TS, only to find that the opponent's team had nary a worry to them, or had a Poison-type ready to soak them up. If your opponent saw you were using TS, it essentially gave them a free turn to boost up with their current sweeper, or switch in their poison type.

For example, when I see Espeon/Xatu on the opposing team, I am relatively confident that switching in Forretress will prompt a switch to them for my opponent. This allows me to predict, and use Payback, Gyro Ball, or even Volt Switch. Essentially a way to force them out, or Pursuit trap, or a number of other possibilities.

This actually applies to all hazards imo. If I see that SR is going to be mega-important (eg opponent has a Volcarona or Dragonite), I would choose to set that ASAP. If I see a stall team without too many Flyers/Levitators/Steels, and no poison, well then TS are going to be integral.

In short, Team Preview has improved the ability for competitive battlers to consider using Toxic Spikes.
 
Don't necrobump 9 month old threads in the future, unless the current metagame has made such a necrobump relevant or you have something drastically important to say.
 
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