Quality Control Toxic Strats (Venomoth) [QC 0/3]

[OVERVIEW]

Venomoth is a unique mon in the LGPE meta. It is the most viable mon that knows quiver dance, as the other one, butterfree, is 4 times weak to rocks. While it has bad physical bulk it can't boost and weaknesses to common types in the meta, such as rock, psychic, and flying, it can still destroy teams with its traits that can truly bug some teams.
[SET]
name: Offensive Quiver Dance
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Sleep Powder
move 3: Bug Buzz
move 4: Pyschic/Substitutue/Roost
item: N/A
nature: Modest/Timid

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Information
========

This set takes full advantage of Venomoth's superb dancing skills, allowing it to potentially clean entire teams. Quiver Dance is the set up move that gives Venomoth its role, allowing it to become a strong threat real quick. Sleep Powder allows Venomoth to set a lot of quiver dances without repeatedly tanking hits, something it can't do. Bug Buzz is STAB that allows it to hit most things neutrally or super effectively, stuff like Alakazam, Cloyster, Mew, Muk-Alola, Starmie, Mega-Gyarados and Venusaur. Psychic is for coverage against stuff like Aerodactyl, Gengar, Zapdos and Rapidash. It also chooses to run a Modest nature since it'll be boosting its speed up anyway. After a boost, it can tie with Mega-Beedrill and outspeed everything else except Mega-Aerodactyl, Mega-Alakazam, and Electrode.

Usage Tips
========

Venomoth is most commonly a mid or late game cleaner, finishing off weakened teams. Its great matchups against Mew, Mega-Gyardos, and Mega-Alakazam if it can obtain multiple boosts gives it the advantage if it sets up late game. Doing so also allows you to force your way though Muk-Alola if it was burnt. Its also able to try and gain enough setup from sleeping a threatening pokemon but that can only guarantee a single boost. While Zapdos isn't usually a good switch thanks to drill peck being on a lot of sets, the sets without drill peck have trouble getting by, as Venomoth can absorb toxic, handle thunderbolt or thunder by boosting its special defense more, and not care about paralysis if its running substitute. Another safe entry point is Mega-Gyarados, who has nothing for Venomoth besides extremely niche fire coverage. Venomoth can also switch in when a team. Once its there, it can sleep the opponent if it causes problems and set up on it if it doesn't. You also need to be wary of pokemon switching in from a sleeped mon, since there is a sleep clause.

Team Options
========

Starmie is a pretty good teammate as it can ward off most common rockers as well as handle Maga-Aerodactyl quite well. It can also survive a Mega-Alakazam Shadow Ball and paralyze it. Mega-Alakazam is also good as it can help with the Mega-Aerodactyl weakness as well as take advantage of venomoth removing dark types and Muk-Alola can help deal with Mega-Alakazam. Another good teammate is Sandslash, which can set its own rocks, tank physical moves well, and beat steel and rock type rockers with earthquake, helping to stop stealth rocks from going up. Melmetal is also nice against rocks as it beats the rock type rockers, packs earthquake for the others, and packs the bulk to take quakes. Another good team member is Zapdos, which is a solid wall to Melmetal, one of the things stopping Venomoth from doing anything.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Venomoth can potentially run substitute instead of psychic to further safeguard itself from hits, as this allows it to set up more boosts to make it through threats psychic is supposed to cover with raw power. Roost is also an option, allowing it to heal off the damage from stealth rocks to survive more hits. It can also run Timid nature, outspeeding Mega-Beedrill, Adamant Mega-Aerodactyl, and Modest Mega-Alakazam after 1 boost.

Checks and Counters
===================
Melmetal: Oh boy is this mon a pain for our moth friend. It can break through substitute and still hit with its signature move, that move can also usually KO it while it can do basically nothing to reduce the blow, sleep turn inconsistancy means that there's a good chance melmetal will wake up in one turn and immediately KO, it resists all of venomoth's moves. Literally the only advantage Venomoth has is that it can outspeed it.
Other steels: These mons are still a problem, resisting all of venomoth's moves and having tools to easily kill it, but their lower hp's allow venomoth to still potentially win if they're weakened.
Psychic types: While the issue can be sort of circumvented by having a lot of quiver dance boosts, unboosted Venomoth is prone to getting cleanly knocked out by most psychic types, especially since practically all of them outspeed, with Timid Mega-Alakazam still outspeeding even after a boost as Timid yourself and most psychic types carrying paralysis really doesn't help.
Mega-Aerodactyl: This thing can outspeed venomoth after 1 boost no matter the nature if its Jolly and Venomoth needs to be Timid to be able to outspeed Adamant Mega-Aerodactyl after a boost. It also can easily OHKO it with either rock slide or stone edge.
Most other flying types: Zapdos does basically nothing noteworthy to Venomoth unless it has drill peck, when it will absolutely demolish Venomoth. Dragonite is dangerous for Venomoth over here as well, as its raw power and ability to surpass Venomoth in speed with agility make it hard to stop with our bug.
 
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~ i think there needs to be more detail especially about speed. for example, +1 venomoth is outsped by +speed m-zam and m-aero regardless of its own nature and speed ties with m-bee that has the same speed nature as itself (ie if they are both +speed or if they are both neutral speed), but even adamant m-bee can only do 31-37% with u turn while +1 psychic obv ohkos so that speed tier isnt too important. this is the reason why venomoth generally runs modest, since m-zam is almost always timid and m-aero isnt a great matchup even if it is adamant since +1 timid psychic does max 37%, so you dont rly gain any significant speed tier with timid. (this was not the case in the m-gar meta, where one of venomoths features was outspeeding (timid) mgar at +1 and ohkoing with psychic.)
the fact that timid m-zam still outspeeds and ohkos +1 venomoth with psychic (after rocks) should be mentioned. (actually i see you have this mentioned in checks and counters but maybe put it earlier, and it isnt rly about m-zam being psychic type but as a revenge killer like m-aero.) the fact that jolly m-aero outspeeds and ohkos should be mentioned. if timid is considered an option for venomoths nature at all, the main reason would be to outspeed adamant m-aero so the need for prior damage to be able to ko it at +1 should prob be mentioned.
you write "sleep powder allows venomoth to set up lots of quiver dances." venomoth is generally considered unlikely to have a chance to boost more than once (most likely the turn after using sleep powder while the opponent switches something in). if you think getting two boosts is realistic in some situations or matchups, i think that needs to be explained, and then obv the statements about being revenged by m-zam and m-aero are no longer true.

~ venomoth is generally either using quiver dance or sleep powder then quiver dance as soon as it comes in so i think talking about starmie switching into unboosted psychic is not relevant. venomoth's rocks weakness mainly means it can only rly come in and set up once? the rocks weakness is rly not as big an issue as it is for say m-beedrill or even m-aero. it can def be mentioned somewhere but sr doesnt check venomoth, and the rockers you mentioned with the exception of sandslash-a (which is really not a rocks setter but thats where you mentioned it) really dont check venomoth well at all, as rhydon and sandslash-k are too specially frail and nidos are weak to psychic, so they have to be close to full health to survive +1 bug buzz/psychic respectively which is pretty unlikely for rocks setters. (also nidos dont run rock slide and anyway their eq does the same damage as non stab rock slide would but thats a minor point since they arent good checks anyway.) omastar does not rly check venomoth at all, as rock slide sets i think are usually -spdef? so risks being ohkoed by +1 modest bug buzz, which it does not resist contrary to what u wrote, unboosted rock slide doesnt even ohko venomoth after rocks anyway, and +2 omastar doesnt outspeed +1 venomoth anyway. again, jolly m-aero outspeeds and that is the first aspect to mention at m-aero. aero in base form, to whatever extent that is relevant, speed ties +1 modest venomoth only if it is jolly, and takes up to 49% from +1 psychic and ofc it is weak to rocks itself and was prob used to set rocks if it isnt mega so likely took some damage, so idk if it is worth mentioning as a check. or maybe just mention it as speed tying if jolly.

~ melmetal should have its own section in checks/counters. the matchup is a disaster unless venomoth is able to sleep it, and since melm dominates the tier this is central to venomoths poor viability. the 50/50s around sleeping melmetal are also important to using venomoth, as it can be risky for melm to switch out predicting sleep powder only for venomoth to use quiver dance instead.
other steel types can be noted separately, but dugtrio-a is so frail that it is usually 2hko'ed by +1 bug buzz, and its earthquake does not ohko venomoth after rocks so it will be dependent on sucker punch 50/50s to ko. (tho the 50/50s are very much in its favor assuming sleep clause is active and venomoth isnt running roost.) sandslash-a is not 2hkod by bug buzz after rocks, but it also cannot ko venomoth with +2 ice shard after rocks either, so it will either be extremely weakened or it can forgo setting up and ko taking only one hit with ice punch followed by ice shard. i def agree with including them in checks/counters but they are not as complete counters as melmetal is as well as that they are nowhere near as prominent in the tier.

~ i think venomoths toxic immunity is worth mentioning somewhere? it can even try to switch directly into a predicted toxic in a bad situation, but more generally it helps somewhat it matchups such as zapdos (lacking drill peck) allowing venomoth to boost further, or breaking through a burned muk-a. btw modest venomoth being able to outspeed and usually ohko mew at +1 should be noted somewhere.
while i agree with the primary set, i do think substitute and/or roost should prob be mentioned as alternative fourth moves to psychic, which is nowhere near as important as it was before the m-gar ban. substitute is mainly to block m-venu's leech seed and sleep powder, and m-venu's stabs cannot break venomoths sub at +1 so that gives you a 50/50 to freely set up on m-venu (and still having sleep powder to use for later). that is the one mega youd really like to be able to set up on but its ofc immune to powder and venomoth cant rly afford to be taking leech seed damage given how many turns it will take to break through m-venu. while there arent many pokemon venomoth can effectively roost against, when it can do so roost can really flip the matchup esp with zapdos. i think some ppl actually view roost as the primary set tho i def disagree with that but it should prob be mentioned in other options. ofc dropping psychic means losing coverage for nidos, gengar and poliwrath.

(honestly idk how viable venomoth is post m-gar ban, it now cannot outspeed and ohko any of the fast megas at +1 which is pretty disappointing for a speed boosting sweeper that can generally only set up once and has a nightmare melmetal matchup, and the two positive mega matchups mvenu and mgyara are pokemon it outspeeds without boosting. rly the one thing it has going for it is ohkoing mew at +1 but ofc psychic mew ohko's venomoth if it hasnt set up. but thats a separate question from my comments on analysis draft)
 
(kind of a lot of little comments, im j going in chronological order)

~ id mention different pokemon as targets for psychic, gengar being the only one id keep from your list and id add nidos and poliwrath. the m-aero matchup is pretty bad regardless, the zapdos matchup is probably better with roost than with psychic, and rapidash isnt common and psychic doesnt help that much with it anyway. modest venomoth only speed ties with adamant m-bee at +1, it is outspeed by jolly.

~ zapdos never runs thunder, i personally kind of like thunder in general in this meta and i think for some pokemon that may use electric coverage such as nidos it should be considered more, but it does not fit well on zapdos since its electric stab is its only consistent damaging move, it is bad for the mirror matchup since electrics are immune to paralysis and tbolt already 2hkos after rocks, and since the main early game switch-ins to zapdos are grounds you arent going to be spreading paralysis. so i dont think you need to bring up substitute and the paralysis chance. still, zapdos's better base stats plus resistance to bug buzz mean the matchup isnt exactly favorable for venomoth and venomoth has to already be at +1 to really have a chance ~ +1 psychic usually 2hkos zapdos after rocks while venomoth is still 2hkoed by thunderbolt at +1. however if zapdos is a weakened venomoth can boost a second time and +2 psychic does 44-53%, and the second boost is often very important for venomoth's chances to continue sweeping. the situation is arguably even better if venomoth has roost instead of psychic tho it gives zapdos more chances to get a lucky tbolt paralysis. however, the way you have it written overstates venomoth's durability in the zapdos matchup (quite apart from drill peck, which ill let someone else comment about how common drill peck is bc i dont really like using zapdos myself).

~ im not sure what 'entry point' means but venomoth is ohko's by either of adamant m-gyara's stabs after rocks so it definitely cannot switch in, m-gyara does not ever run fire coverage and even if it did it would do less damage than its stabs due to its fire moves being special attacks. saying gyara "has nothing for venomoth" is def incorrect. venomoth does outspeed (adamant) m-gyara and bug buzz 2hkos, so gyara might switch out depending.

~ 'starmie takes on m-aero very well' is overstated, it cant switch in at all as it is easily 2hko'ed by any move followed by crunch, and even 1v1 it has to be healthy to survive crunch. the comments about opposing rocks setters are still pretty out of place, the only steel type rocks setter is dugtrio-a and the only rock type rocks setters are goldon, some aerodactyl, and the never used kabutops. sandslash has decent matchups against these, except for kabutops in most cases, but it definitely isnt stopping them from setting rocks at all, with the possible exception of dugtrio-a which has to sacrifice itself to get up rocks against sandslash-k. melmetal usually ohko's goldon (and easily ohko's aero) with dib but it is still a little weird to mention melmetal here since it def isnt stopping kabutops from setting rocks and its matchups against the two best rocks setters not named mew, nidoqueen and sandslash-k, arent very good at all. and again, venomoth doesnt really gain that much from not having rocks up for this to be worth mentioning, tho ofc it def appreciates it as do most pokemon in the tier.
i dont have strong opinions abt most of the suggested teammates in general other than these specific details, but i do rly like the zapdos suggestion, and i would def also mention zapdos being able to bring in venomoth safely with its u-turn. zapdos bringing in venomoth on a ground type switch-in other than dugtrio-a is prob particularly useful, as if that ground type is also the teams rocks setter, as it often is, and has not set rocks yet, that pokemon has to either risk taking sleep which may mean not being able to set rocks at all, or give venomoth a free turn.

~ i think that smogon's formatting standard is to either have move options slashed, or have them in other options, not both, so they will probably ask you to change that. i think substitute definitely should be in oo not slashed, roost can go either way to me but i imagine some ppl will prob think it should be slashed. if you are going to mention substitute, i think m-venu should be specified as flipping that matchup is really the reason to run substitute, almost anything else can break venomoths substitute pretty easily, and some ppl may feel substitute is not worth mentioning at all.

~ maybe others will disagree about this but if i land sleep on melmetal, unless melmetal is extremely weakened (like, in range of +1 bug buzz) i am not trying to set up on it, i am switching venomoth out. even if that means venomoth has no chance of setting up for as long as melmetal is asleep, ive incapacitated the tier's centralizing pokemon, and if i am running venomoth i am probably using a mega that greatly appreciates incapacitated melmetal, prob mega zam as u said or maybe m-aero.

~ again the "psychic types" thing is weird, really only starmie sometimes runs twave (im sure mew has some twave sets but that is its least common status move) and it is easily outsped and ohko'ed at +1. mew is also usually ohko'd at +1 after rocks. i
there arent rly that many psychics in the tier to talk about "most" psychic types, exeggutor is outsped and ohko'd, venomoth outspeeds mega slowbro but only kos it at +1 and cant set up in front of it if it has psychic. again m-zam is the issue since timid m-zam outspeeds and ohko's +1 venomoth. zapdos again is way overstated saying that it cant do anything to venomoth without drill peck, as venomoth is 2hkod by tbolt after rocks even at +1.
idk if it is most useful to categorize pokemon by typing in this way, there arent that many viable pokemon in lgpe ou to begin with so when u talk about "flying types" that are b rank and above it is m-aero, zap, drgaonite and gyara before it m-evolves, these are all extremely different pokemon and it doesnt really mean much to group them together as "flying types."
also idk if snorlax and maybe chansey and a-muk deserve a mention in c&c
 
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Collette

formerly Collesque
amcheck comments, remove, add, stuff that Juoean mentioned that I'm also mentioning or adding too
[OVERVIEW]

Venomoth is a unique mon in the LGPE meta. It is the most viable mon that knows quiver dance, as the other one, butterfree, is 4 times weak to rocks. Calling a Pokemon unique as an entire sentence feels like filler, every Pokemon is unique. While it still maybe worth mentioning, it is certainly not worth dedicating 2 of the 3 sentences in the overview to, and elaborating on why Butterfree is bad is unnecessary in the Venomoth analysis While it has bad physical bulk it can't boost and weaknesses to common types in the meta, such as rock, psychic, and flyingWhile Psychic is arguably common, Flying as an offensive type is exceedingly rare, not worth a mention. A good replacement would be Fire, which is run on many things for Melmetal, it can still destroy teams with its traitsWhat traits? All you've said is that it has QD and bad bulk with bad typing that can truly bug some teams.
-This overview provides very little and should probably be restructured, using this maybe https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-obviously-writers-can-read-this-too.3598541/ All the information you provide is that it is unique, you list 3 of its weaknesses, and you say it has bad physical bulk. This is not adequate for what overviews usually say, take a look at some of the other overviews on finished analysis's for reference. More info needs to be provided for both pros and cons, like, being a setup sweeper with bug STAB is great because you can OHKO Mew after rocks, or, Venomoth's viability is hampered by being unable to do any meaningful damage to the extremely prevalent Melmetal, etc, stuff like that.

Also it's worth pointing out that "mon" is not analysis acceptable format, and should be replaced with a capitalized Pokemon. In addition, every type listed should be capitalized, as well as every move name "Quiver Dance" and Pokemon name "Butterfree".



[SET]
name: Offensive Quiver Dance
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Sleep Powder
move 3: Bug Buzz
move 4: Pyschic/Substitutue/Roost I don't understand why Sludge Bomb is not the first option here, surely a secondary STAB would be preffered over coverage, right? If this was intentional please provide reasoning
item: N/A
nature: Modest/Timid

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Information
========

This set takes full advantage of Venomoth's superb dancing skills, allowing it to potentially clean entire teams. Quiver Dance is the set up move that gives Venomoth its role, allowing it to become a strong threat real quick.These first two sentences accomplish the same thing, they could be condensed or one deleted and the other one changed to give more info Sleep Powder allows Venomoth to set a lot of quiver dances without repeatedly tanking hits, something it can't do attempt to set up on something it would normally not be able to, as well as provide support for the team. Bug Buzz is STABVenomoth's main STAB attack that allows it to hit most things neutrally or super effectivelyThis is actually not true, more than half of the Pokemon on the VR resist Bug, as well as more than half of the OU tiered Pokemon , stuff like Alakazam, Cloyster, Mew, Muk-Alola, Starmie, Mega-Gyarados and Venusaur. The OHKO on Mew after rocks in incredibly important, should be mentioned.Psychic is for coverage against stuff like Aerodactyl, Gengar, Zapdos and Rapidashimo only pokemon that resist both Sludge Bomb and Bug Buzz or Pokemon weak to Psychic should be mentioned here, So I agree with juoean that Zapdos and Rapidash should be removed.. It also chooses to run a Modest nature since it'll be boosting its speed up anyway. After a boost, it can tie with Mega-Beedrill and outspeed everything else except Mega-Aerodactyl, Mega-Alakazam, and Electrode. This speed data could use elaboration, you have Modest slashed first on your set, so saying you tie with Mega-Beedrill should be specified to ties with Adamant Mega-Beedrill.

Usage Tips
========

Venomoth is most commonly a mid or late game cleaner, finishing off weakened teams. Its great matchups against Mew, Mega-Gyardos, and Mega-Alakazam if it can obtain multiple boosts gives it the advantage if it sets up late game Pointing out that it has good matchups against Mega Gyarados and Alakazam after more than 1 boost seems kinda weird to me idk, it would have good matchups against everything with enough boosts, and to me it's a detriment to its viability that it needs at least 2 turns to avoid being outspeed or tanked by Pokemon that that. . Doing so also allows you to force your way though Muk-Alola if it was burnt. Its also able to try and gain enough setup from sleeping a threatening pokemon but that can only guarantee a single boost. While Zapdos isn't usually a good switch thanks to drill peck being on a lot of sets, the sets without drill peck have trouble getting by, as Venomoth can absorb toxic, handle thunderbolt or thunder by boosting its special defense more, and not care about paralysis if its running substitute.Drill peck is not at all common, and Thunder is never run, like juoean said. Another safe entry point is Mega-Gyarados, who has nothing for Venomoth besides extremely niche fire coverage. Venomoth can also switch in when a team???. Once its there, it can sleep the opponent if it causes problems and set up on it if it doesn't. You also need to be wary of pokemon switching in from a sleeped mon, since there is a sleep clause.
There is a lot here that I can't really make sense of, after your first implementations i'll take another look at it and give more feedback.
Team Options
========

Starmie is a pretty good teammate as it can ward off most common rockers as well as handle Maga-Aerodactyl quite well. It can also survive a Mega-Alakazam Shadow Ball and paralyze it. Mega-Alakazam is also good as it can help with the Mega-Aerodactyl weakness as well as take advantage of venomoth removing dark types and Muk-Alola can help deal with Mega-Alakazam. Another good teammate is Sandslash, which can set its own rocks, tank physical moves well, and beat steel and rock type rockers with earthquake, helping to stop stealth rocks from going up. Melmetal is also nice against rocks as it beats the rock type rockers, packs earthquake for the others, and packs the bulk to take quakes. Another good team member is Zapdos, which is a solid wall to Melmetal, one of the things stopping Venomoth from doing anything.
Team Options is pretty reflective of the rest of the analysis, so I'll take another look at this section after the first implementation to be the most accurate.
[STRATEGY COMMENTS] ??
Other Options
=============

Venomoth can potentially run substitute instead of psychic to further safeguard itself from hits, as this allows it to set up more boosts to make it through threats psychic is supposed to cover with raw power. Roost is also an option, allowing it to heal off the damage from stealth rocks to survive more hitsRoost lets you set up on zap, make sure to mention that. It can also run Timid nature, outspeeding Mega-BeedrillYou tie with jolly bee, saying you outspeed it is a misnomer, Adamant Mega-Aerodactyl, and Modest Mega-Alakazam after 1 boost. I really don't understand why Sludge Bomb is not mentioned anywhere in the entire analysis.

Checks and Counters
===================
Melmetal: Oh boy is this mon a pain for our moth friend. It can break through substitute and still hit with its signature move, that move can also usually KO it while it can do basically nothing to reduce the blow, sleep turn inconsistancy means that there's a good chance melmetal will wake up in one turn and immediately KO, it resists all of venomoth's moves. Literally the only advantage Venomoth has is that it can outspeed it. Word choice should be more formal and informative, Double Iron Bash should be named, it's not Voldemort, punctuation needs to be addressed better and there is a run on sentence.
Other steels: These mons are still a problem, resisting all of venomoth's moves and having tools to easily kill it, but their lower hp's allow venomoth to still potentially win if they're weakened. This entire section could be merged with the previous one, and list the 2 other steel types by name, rather then ambiguously talking about them
Psychic types: While the issue can be sort of circumvented by having a lot of quiver dance boosts, unboosted Venomoth is prone to getting cleanly knocked out by most psychic types, especially since practically all of them outspeed, with Timid Mega-Alakazam still outspeeding even after a boost as Timid yourself and most psychic types carrying paralysis really doesn't help.
Mega-Aerodactyl: This thing can outspeed venomoth after 1 boost no matter the nature if its Jolly and Venomoth needs to be Timid to be able to outspeed Adamant Mega-Aerodactyl after a boost. It also can easily OHKO it with either rock slide or stone edge. Stone edge does not exist in Lets Go Pikachu and Eevee
Most other flying types: Zapdos does basically nothing noteworthy to Venomoth unless it has drill peck, when it will absolutely demolish Venomoth. Dragonite is dangerous for Venomoth over here as well, as its raw power and ability to surpass Venomoth in speed with agility make it hard to stop with our bug.

Juoean had some good things said about this section that I didn't mention, so make sure to try to implement some of those, I have more to add but I'm trying to not completely restructure it, so I'll take another look at this section on my 2nd amcheck.
 
amcheck comments, remove, add, stuff that Juoean mentioned that I'm also mentioning or adding too
I actually don't mention sludge bomb since imo, psychic is entirely superior. Sure, losing STAB sucks, but what can it hit with sludge bomb that it can't with psychic? With psychic, you also gain the ability to more easily scare every poison type in the tier, of which there are a reasonable few. With sludge bomb, you hit basically nothing super effectively, since there are no OU fairies and the only OU grass,venusaur, is niche and scared better by psychic. And the neutral coverage slightly is better as well, not having both of its moves resisted by mega-aero. Here are some calcs:
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 29-34 (21.4 - 25.1%) -- 0.6% chance to 4HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 29-34 (21.4 - 25.1%) -- 0.6% chance to 4HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 158-186 (117 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Beedrill-Mega: 56-66 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Beedrill-Mega: 56-66 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Beedrill-Mega: 150-178 (107.1 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 59-69 (37.8 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 29-34 (18.5 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 158-186 (101.2 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 53-63 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 94.5% chance to 3HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 26-31 (15.7 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 142-168 (86 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 93-111 (60 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 93-111 (60 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 124-148 (80 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 48-57 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 75% chance to 3HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 48-57 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 75% chance to 3HKO
+2 0 SpA Venomoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 65-77 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I still should probably put it in the niche options list, but it seems better to hit these mons harder.
 
yes thank you for the stone edge doesnt exist in lgpe comment* i noticed and meant to write that but i "forgot" to include it bc i got focused on other things.

i actually agree with not mentioning sludge bomb. it provides very little neutral coverage that bug buzz doesnt, basically just zapdos, dragonite and mega zards, but roost is almost always better against zapdos (lacking drill peck) anyway, and +1 sludge bomb still isnt strong enough to prevent dragonite from setting up agility unless it poisons. psychic has perfect neutral coverage with bug buzz other than steel types and hits mega beedrill, nidos, and gengar super effectively which all resist both bug buzz and sludge bomb all of which venomoth is helpless against otherwise, as well as covering poliwrath. all of these pokemon are quite common, and they are all physical attackers that roost is useless against, with the exception of gengar but gengar 4x resists both stab moves and roost venomoth needs some luck to beat it bc it needs to repeatedly avoid shadow ball spdef drops and/or tbolt paralysis i dont remember all the calcs. (psychic was basically mandatory imo in the m-gengar meta, for timid venomoth to outspeed and ohko it at +1, and i have never even thought about using venomoth since the m-gar ban so maybe i am being overly influenced by psychic's importance in the old meta, but i still feel it has merit). sludge bomb obv flips the clefable matchup and it helps a bit with mega charizard forms but +1 psychic does 34-41% to zard x which brings it under 25% with chip damage, and if zard x tries to roost it risks venomoth predicting the roost and boosting to +2, and boosting to +3 surviving the fire blast and doing 58-66% with psychic; and if fire blast misses once zard x loses and has to deal with a +2 or +3 venomoth. so the matchup is certainly better with sludge bomb but zard x prob doesnt rly want to take on venomoth in most cases anyway.

edit i left out some lower viability pokemon like m-pinsir and the other fire types. but bug buzz will force pinsir to m-evolve and still bring it under 50%, so as long as u have preserved your m-zam or w e you can then revenge it and it cant switch out and come back in. +1 sludge bomb has a chance to ko rapidash after rocks and at minimum leaves it koed by flare blitz recoil, brings arcanine after rocks under 25%, and it will prevent moltres from setting agility but these arent exactly important pokemon to consider.

i imagine that many people will want roost slashed first, some ppl may not think psychic should be slashed at all idk, but sludge bomb does not provide enough to be viable, if anything the most useful aspect of it is the poison chance but venomoth is not a pokemon that wants to be fishing for poison as a sweeper.
idk about putting sludge bomb in oo, i think the only way id consider sludge bomb is if i dropped bug buzz and ran something like sludge bomb + mega drain, getting some recovery while still running two attacks and having somewhat different coverage as sort of a 'lure' set, but are goldon and sandslash-k really trying to take on venomoth anyway, the bug stab would really be missed and your melmetal problems are even worse, and it is worse neutral coverage overall as alolan muk, mega beedrill, and gengar now resist both moves. but idk venomoths viability post m-gar ban is very questionable to begin with so maybe the ability to run a very different moveset for surprise factor could be worth something.

edit: agree with gleeboop's comment, sorry posted this before i saw it, except calcs should prob be for +1 venomoth after rocks and m-aero is really not relevant bc you are losing to it at +1 regardless (im assuming your calcs are for modest venomoth?)
 
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Collette

formerly Collesque
what can it hit with sludge bomb that it can't with psychic?
Hardest hitting option to hit Arcanine, Zapdos,Dragonite, Charizard, pre-mega gyara and rapidash and some other things like fairy types, you guys bring up some good points tho, I think I agree it shouldn't be slashed. Other Options maybe though
 
(~gentle reminder that revisions havent been implemented. i think u can basically use collette's check if that is easier, just make sure u also fix the m-gyara mention in usage tips and the thing about sandslash-k and melmetal's matchup against "steel and rock type" rock setters, but otherwise i think their check covers everything.)
and i guess sludge bomb can go in oo, id never use it but venomoth is terrible in the current meta anyway and sludge bomb does have a niche (mainly vs zard x, and the poison chance helps vs dragonite).

~ another potential mention for other options is to drop qd (lmao) and run stab u-turn instead (ie sleep powder + u turn + 2 other damaging moves, probably psychic and then mega drain or possibly sludge bomb). the threat of quiver dance can sometimes force aggressive switches which u-turn can take advantage of, and u-turn is also useful after using sleep powder esp if opposing melmetal is healthy (whether it was the pokemon slept or not, either way bc if it wasnt slept then melmetal is likely switching in immediately / venomoth cant accomplish anything if opponent has a healthy melmetal so pivoting out is the best option).
teleport exeggutor is def overall much better for a sleep move + pivot, but the best responses to venomoth's qd sets are not great responses to either u-turn or sleep powder followed by u-turn, and venomoth has a much better speed tier than egg, faster than the many common pokemon in the 70-85 base speed range without taking damage as long as sleep powder hits, many of which are also weak to one of its attacks. mega drain + psychic hit all the ground types hard tho only rhydon (and usually golem) is ohko'ed, but that means it might even be usable as an anti-lead (with u-turn for defensive mew) tho doing so prob gives away that it is not quiver dance.
anyway psychic + mega drain hits enough of the metagame adequately that venomoth might be worth consideration as a pretty fast sleep + pivot, to the extent that veno is viable in the tier at all [i was 'hoping' maybe venomoth would be moved to unranked during the vr update which i believe one person i think eve voted for that but everyone else voted to keep it ranked]. quiver dance venomoth has way too many obstacles to almost ever sweep or even do that much damage, primarily melmetal + being revenged by the fastest megas, maybe this is extreme but i think the pivot set might actually be better, being able to sleep something with reasonable consistency and pivot out, and even after that it can maybe force some switches with its special coverage, and u-turn out of predicted melmetal and mew switchins. (but outside of sleep powder, it is basically a much worse primeape). also it has a very good matchup with m-venu, so sleep powder being blocked is not rly an issue.
pivot venomoth should typically be +speed (to not worry about +speed natures from nidoking m-gyara etc since its primary role is to sleep something +spa isnt rly worth it), timid is maybe preferred (u-turn's damage output is mostly just relevant for mew) but hasty or naive are def possible. idk what kind of team would use it lol esp since it has the same (defensive) typing as m-bee (but idk what team would want to use qd veno either).
 

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