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Gen 3 Tyranitar
- Thread starter Hill
- Start date
Why does everyone hate T-Tar? If we banned it we would all be hating Hera (not that we dont anway...) and the like because of no Sand Stream for Endure/Reversers. Ive killed it with my Bulky non-BPing Vaporeons for gods sake!
(btw awesome thread)
(btw awesome thread)
Well, i have some considerations here.. Ok, it may be late for us to change something, but didn't we ban Celebi and Jirachi in a tour in middle-late metagame? So, wouldn't it be good for us to try it out? I mean, Mekkah and some others (me included) pointed a lot of arguments pro-banning Tyranitar, good arguments. Arguments agains banning are good as well,
For people talking about reversal, it's not that it wouldn't be very good, but any Weezing, Dusclops, Salamence, Gyarados or Gengar could stop it (If we are considering Medicham, just don't consider gengar). And they are used a lot, and would be even more if Tyranitar wasn't there. Even without sandstorm i still consider cbcross or chan a lot more scarier than reversal ones, specially Heracross, Megahorn with CBand has only 20- BP compared to reversal, and you can use it with full health or anytime you want. As Mekkah said
For people talking about reversal, it's not that it wouldn't be very good, but any Weezing, Dusclops, Salamence, Gyarados or Gengar could stop it (If we are considering Medicham, just don't consider gengar). And they are used a lot, and would be even more if Tyranitar wasn't there. Even without sandstorm i still consider cbcross or chan a lot more scarier than reversal ones, specially Heracross, Megahorn with CBand has only 20- BP compared to reversal, and you can use it with full health or anytime you want. As Mekkah said
Great job, you negated half of your own argument already.
There's other counters to Endure/Reversal. Tyranitar just happens to be the best if you're a lazy ass.
Like with the guy who said he sweeps with Azumarill: this kind of experience means nothing. I have killed Jirachi and Metagross with Flail Farfetch'd before. I have killed Blissey with Plusle before. I have killed Kyogre with Gorebyss.
Toy's deleted post said:
Mekkah's first post in this thread said:
Nice location by the way.
*sigh* I really don't see the point in banning ttar...It is run in far too many teams for the ban to last long before a stream of complaints flood the servers. Besides, the current metagame would be drastically altered
Consider if ttar was banned what would happen to blaizken and heracross, since their most powerful counter was out of the way, they would move in to take it's place, shifting the metagame towards counters for those, including salamence, or anything that uses toxic to stop the endure/reversal combo. Indirect effects would also occur on other pokemon, such as other types that are taken down by swampert. Because swampert would become far less common because the main reason for running it is gone (countering ttar) many other types that were countered by it would rise to supremacy.
Anyways, ttar has plenty of counters in the current metagame anyways, and even encourages diverse team building by making players think of diverse and creative ways of defeating the mountain-moving-monster. There are many other more common counters in the metagame now, such as...
milotic breloom
swampert blissey
medicham machamp (though rarely used)
metagross gengar
celebi
these are only the most commonly used pokemon, not even stopping to consider the more creative solutions. A 4x weakness to fighting type attacks opens a wide variety of pokemon that could be used.
My final reason is that there are many other pokemon that are just as eligable for banning than Ttar, such as blissey, skarmory, and metagross among others. If tyranitar was to be banned, then they would be obligated to ban anything else that became as powerful as ttar is now, and then ban that, etc...
so really, why ban ttar
Consider if ttar was banned what would happen to blaizken and heracross, since their most powerful counter was out of the way, they would move in to take it's place, shifting the metagame towards counters for those, including salamence, or anything that uses toxic to stop the endure/reversal combo. Indirect effects would also occur on other pokemon, such as other types that are taken down by swampert. Because swampert would become far less common because the main reason for running it is gone (countering ttar) many other types that were countered by it would rise to supremacy.
Anyways, ttar has plenty of counters in the current metagame anyways, and even encourages diverse team building by making players think of diverse and creative ways of defeating the mountain-moving-monster. There are many other more common counters in the metagame now, such as...
milotic breloom
swampert blissey
medicham machamp (though rarely used)
metagross gengar
celebi
these are only the most commonly used pokemon, not even stopping to consider the more creative solutions. A 4x weakness to fighting type attacks opens a wide variety of pokemon that could be used.
My final reason is that there are many other pokemon that are just as eligable for banning than Ttar, such as blissey, skarmory, and metagross among others. If tyranitar was to be banned, then they would be obligated to ban anything else that became as powerful as ttar is now, and then ban that, etc...
so really, why ban ttar
Ok firstly, half of the things you listed are pathetic counters, or aren't really counters at all. In fact, all of those except swampert are easily killed with a few half decent predictions, and Tyranitar is a Blissey/Celebi counter, not the other way around. Secondly, having a fighting attack doesn't mean "Tyranitar counter". You have to be able to switch in more than once, which is basically impossible for most fighters. And besides, the argument is less about whether Tyranitar has counters, which it does, then whether it overcentralizes the metagame so that (nearly) every team uses Tyranitar. And guess what? It does. In the past month or so, I have seen almost no competitive teams without it. And as far as the "Reducing the amount of usable pokemon by a large amount" part goes, Tyranitar, more than any other pokemon in the game, does this, moreso because of sandstream than anything else. Things like Raikou, Weezing, Heracross, even Celebi, and anything that relies on/needs leftovers to be effective are all limited by the presence of Tyranitar, and are rarely seen on serious teams. I would definitly like to see this tried out in the next tour or something.
In my opinion, the best counter for Tyranitar is a team that can all at least damage it for more than 30%, and even moreso if Swampert is on that team. Of course, this means Tyranitar has already forced you to overcentralize your team into damaging it, but it's still the best counter, aside from predicting with Dugtrio or switching it into a rock slide. (with it always survives at 100% CB or not if you run 4 evs in HP.) That's pretty much all I can say about it because of minimal experience with using it. I never use Tyranitar except for those gimmick special-based ones. (and that was only once on a team I posted here)
Also agreeing with the no-tyranitar tournament idea.
Also agreeing with the no-tyranitar tournament idea.
From what I've gathered in this thread, peoples' (and my) main problem with Tyranitar is it's Sand Stream ability. If it weren't for that, I'm pretty sure most wouldn't have a problem with another powerful physical attacker.
Edit: And btw, this Endure/Reversal argument is easier to resolve, as Quick Attack/Mach Punch can be utilized as counters to this strategy or simply Ghosts/Intimidators. It's also rather hard to pull off, what with status and Spikes around. Also, my postcount is 1600 and I'm turning 16 on Monday. :D
Edit: And btw, this Endure/Reversal argument is easier to resolve, as Quick Attack/Mach Punch can be utilized as counters to this strategy or simply Ghosts/Intimidators. It's also rather hard to pull off, what with status and Spikes around. Also, my postcount is 1600 and I'm turning 16 on Monday. :D
I was not specifically listing common counters to TTar, I was listing things off the top of my head that could be used as a counter for ttar if properly used. I obviously didn't make that very clear...and I agree, blissey should not be on that list, it has been stuck in my head and I randomly put that down...
my apologies for any confusion...
In response to your other point, I have seen plenty of competitive teams recently that run ttar, I can assume that we have both been playing the extremes, because I notice that a fair portion is able to go without ttar. I do aggree that the majority of competitive teams run tyranitar, it just is not an overwhelming majority. My point still stands that if ttar was banned from the current OU metagame it would just usher in something like blaziken/heracross or something else to take it's place, leaving us right in the postition we started in, except with 1 more banned pokemon on the list
my apologies for any confusion...
In response to your other point, I have seen plenty of competitive teams recently that run ttar, I can assume that we have both been playing the extremes, because I notice that a fair portion is able to go without ttar. I do aggree that the majority of competitive teams run tyranitar, it just is not an overwhelming majority. My point still stands that if ttar was banned from the current OU metagame it would just usher in something like blaziken/heracross or something else to take it's place, leaving us right in the postition we started in, except with 1 more banned pokemon on the list
How? These things don't/wouldn't force the metagame to centralize around them, nor do they affect team building in the same way as Tyranitar obviously does. Actually, lets look at UU. There is nothing equivalent to Tyranitar in UU so far as 100% stopping reversalers goes. However, do teams with Kabutops/Hitmonlee/etc run rampant and destroy the metagame? No. People add something like mach punch/QA whatever, and bam, problem solved. The argument that reversalers will 'destroy the metagame' is stupid, because they havn't destroyed any of the lower metagames.
I am not arguing that they will "destroy the metagame" (I never said that, so don't put it in quotes). I am arguing that reversalers would probably become a prominent force. I do not believe anything can be as powerful as ttar is now, but I still believe that the metagame would shift significantly in response to
Tyranitar indeed overspecializes the metagame. People almost HAVE to use Swampert on every team to not get countered by it. If there is no Tyranitar, the discussion of Reversalers increasing is really stupid. Like Pilocus said, there is no Tyranitar in the other metagames, and you don't see Reversalers ruling the metagames.
Unlike Tyranitar, there are lots of Flail/Reversal counters. Quick Attack/mach punch, SalaGyara, Dusclops, Gengar, Weezing, Venusaur, Skarmory, Forretress, Metagross (steels on flailers, ghosts/poisons for reversalers) can take on them. Also, Reversalers/Flailers need to set up on specific things, unlike Tyranitar who can just about use its moves on anything that is not Swampert/Claydol/Donphan/Flygon. Not to mention, Reversalers are pretty much one-time use.
Yes, the metagame will turn to flailers/reversalers, if Tyranitar is banned, but they won't be ruling the metagame as this nerdling guy suggests. In fact, Advance OU will open roads to a lot of forgotten pokemon like Exeggutor, Ludicolo etc.
Unlike Tyranitar, there are lots of Flail/Reversal counters. Quick Attack/mach punch, SalaGyara, Dusclops, Gengar, Weezing, Venusaur, Skarmory, Forretress, Metagross (steels on flailers, ghosts/poisons for reversalers) can take on them. Also, Reversalers/Flailers need to set up on specific things, unlike Tyranitar who can just about use its moves on anything that is not Swampert/Claydol/Donphan/Flygon. Not to mention, Reversalers are pretty much one-time use.
Yes, the metagame will turn to flailers/reversalers, if Tyranitar is banned, but they won't be ruling the metagame as this nerdling guy suggests. In fact, Advance OU will open roads to a lot of forgotten pokemon like Exeggutor, Ludicolo etc.
I find it hilarious that everyone is focusing on Nerdling when I gave the exact same example.
God damn.. you people need to take things a little less literally. Nerdling is giving an example. The major complaint about this topic is that Tyranitar overcentralizes... NOBODY said Reversalers would suddenly rule the metagame. It's a fucking example to say "hey wait a minute things will be different and suddenly we now have to counter those things instead." The point of both his example and mine is that something will ALWAYS overcentralize the metagame. Whatever it is DOESN'T MATTER. The point still remains that something will always be considered more of a threat than other things so you will be inclined to design your team around countering it more.
No you don't. You do see people forced into using more Quick Attacks. Oh and while you're bringing up other metagames.. I remember people whining a while ago about Gligar in the UU metagame. To further justify my example earlier a lot of pokemon like Aggron carry a random Ice Beam just to hit Gligar. They carry a move for one pokemon. That's the exact same overcentralization... some OU pokemon are gone and now Gligar comes in and has a field day.
God damn.. you people need to take things a little less literally. Nerdling is giving an example. The major complaint about this topic is that Tyranitar overcentralizes... NOBODY said Reversalers would suddenly rule the metagame. It's a fucking example to say "hey wait a minute things will be different and suddenly we now have to counter those things instead." The point of both his example and mine is that something will ALWAYS overcentralize the metagame. Whatever it is DOESN'T MATTER. The point still remains that something will always be considered more of a threat than other things so you will be inclined to design your team around countering it more.
No you don't. You do see people forced into using more Quick Attacks. Oh and while you're bringing up other metagames.. I remember people whining a while ago about Gligar in the UU metagame. To further justify my example earlier a lot of pokemon like Aggron carry a random Ice Beam just to hit Gligar. They carry a move for one pokemon. That's the exact same overcentralization... some OU pokemon are gone and now Gligar comes in and has a field day.
*sigh* you people...
carl seems to be the only one that captured the essence of my argument...
I am using reversalers as my argument because they are the most likely to become a dominant force...It doesn't matter who rises to the top, but something will, and then they will be the ones centralizing the OU metagame
carl seems to be the only one that captured the essence of my argument...
I am using reversalers as my argument because they are the most likely to become a dominant force...It doesn't matter who rises to the top, but something will, and then they will be the ones centralizing the OU metagame
If you can't counter Tyranitar, play Borderline, UU or NU.
There are a lot of teams that can counter Tyrannitar and teams without Tyrannitar.
But reversalers won't dominate the metagame if it goes. Tyrannitar is a main staple of the current metagame, but it doesn't own the metagame. If you don't put a Milotic counter on your team, it "owns" as well.
There are a lot of teams that can counter Tyrannitar and teams without Tyrannitar.
But reversalers won't dominate the metagame if it goes. Tyrannitar is a main staple of the current metagame, but it doesn't own the metagame. If you don't put a Milotic counter on your team, it "owns" as well.
There's only one pokemon that counters all forms of Tyranitar without further support, and that's Swampert... Milotic hardly owns when you can stick Blissey/Snorlax/Regice/special wall or Ludicolo/Sceptile/grass-type to stop it from doing anything, or any electric to kill it.
Milotic doesn't render anything useless either. Tyranitar makes shedinja and reversal/flailers useless, and anything not holding leftovers and weak to sandstorm pretty hard to keep alive.
I've made too many teams with Vaporeon or Milotic, only to always go back to Swampert. It does pain me. But all the arguments I'd want to put forth have already been said, so I'll keep shut.
Oh, I do. I know more about BL, UU and NU as I know of OU. However, I also know that its possible enough to beat OU's with UU's and below. But Tyranitar messes up too many viable UU strategies.
And to add, about 90% of the jerks playing NB don't read those 2 letters that state U U and just challenge with OU anyway.
Euh, Endure/Reversal Pokes don't work against Tyranitar, Sandstream finishes them off, and there are countless way to counter Tyranitar, Swampert, and even better counters like Gliscar and Garchomp, wich both get a bonus by Sandstorm (Sand Veil) and they have STAB'ed (Sword Danced) EQ's. And if you're to lazy to put in a Tyranitar counter, it's your own fault, you can't be the best trainer if you can't win from your opponent because he uses a Tyranitar.