U-turn is a very powerful move. It's powerful in a different way from most moves, in that the power comes from the momentum it gives instead of damage. On Skymin, Seed Flare is a very powerful move. Yet, we banned Skymin and not Seed Flare.
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U-turn Discussion and Poll
- Thread starter dcae
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U-turn? Broken? Absolutely not.
I don't want to theorymon as to what a U-turn-free metagame would be like, but a move that does a little bit of damage and then switches your Pokemon out? How can that be broken? Sure, it makes prediction a bit easier on the U-turn user's part, but prediction goes both ways. You could predict them to use U-turn, stay in (well unless you have Celebi in for some reason, then get the fuck out), and use a move of your own. Seriously, U-turn is a move that is very clearly not uncompetitive. Banning U-turn is a ridiculous idea.
I don't want to theorymon as to what a U-turn-free metagame would be like, but a move that does a little bit of damage and then switches your Pokemon out? How can that be broken? Sure, it makes prediction a bit easier on the U-turn user's part, but prediction goes both ways. You could predict them to use U-turn, stay in (well unless you have Celebi in for some reason, then get the fuck out), and use a move of your own. Seriously, U-turn is a move that is very clearly not uncompetitive. Banning U-turn is a ridiculous idea.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
I wouldn't go that far, the fact is, self-switching moves are heavily at fault not just for the brokenness of a couple of suspects but for the offensive, high-risk nature of the meta, a meta in which switching in a hard counter to the opponent's is often a liability. Given that this trend will likely continue with gen VI and parting shot, it's worth it to take the time to examine their effect on our metagame.PK said:
That said, I think that the Pokemon games trending toward offense is simply something that's going to happen no matter how hard we try to stop it, and if self-switching moves are banned, I'll eat my hat.
e: lol @ lucaroark's absurd suggestion that staying in on a u-turn grants you more momentum than staying in on a switch
blitzlefan
shake it off!
To be honest, I think you're underestimating U-turn a little bit here. U-turn can deal quite a bit of damage (exemplified by Genesect and Landorus-T), and makes prediction quite a bit easier; even though prediction goes both ways, the U-turn user is definitely favored. However, personally, I don't think U-turn is broken, as it's really just switching + damage. Outside of Pokemon weak to U-turn, I don't see that much difference between U-turn and just switching out, though depending on the Speed of both Pokemon, U-turn can help bring in a free switch.
Did I say staying in on a U-turn switch granted you more momentum than staying in on a hard switch? Because re-reading my post, I don't think I said that.
Okay, obviously my scenario doesn't work all the time, but it was a hypothetical prediction scenario. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. Isn't that kind of what prediction is? A gamble?
edit @ blitzlefan: I never said the U-turn user wasn't favored; I merely said that prediction goes both ways.
people have this wrong idea of uturn that its just the same as double switching. it isnt. the risk of a double switch is huge, you can lose momentum youve created during the whole game with a risk like that. uturn is the safest move in the game simply because even if you win the "prediction" war and stay in on my uturn when say, a move would have KOd you, I *STILL* keep my momentum because i know for sure what mon is staying in and what move he will most likely use. that means uturn is the "right" move in every (using this loosely, as i know theres places where uturn will be ineffective) situation, as the uturn user will not lose momentum. and every battler worth it knows momentum wins games. sure there might be "righter" moves, such as predicting the stay of a mon that thinks youll uturn and killing it, but that doesnt make uturn a bad move, as you lost nothing by using it.
and btw i want uturn banned because i know better, pkgaming
No, I disagree. U-Turn is not broken. On the contrary, I feel as if U-Turn makes it harder for the metagame to accept and adapt to new potentially broken Pokemon, such as Tornadus-T, Landorus, or Genesect, but it is not the direct reason why they actually are broken in the first place. It did contribute to making those Pokemon broken, but because it was not the root reason, I can not agree that U-Turn should be banned.
What do I mean by my first statement? Well, let me explain it in more detail. I feel as if U-Turn makes it harder for a potentially broken Pokemon to become managable through an alter in the general playstyle or teambuilding style of the metagame. This is because of the mechanics and effects of U-Turn - the fact that fast Pokemon can abuse U-Turn to both deal damage and pivot away from counters, thus making Pokemon that get U-Turn much harder to take down and stop, increasing the amount of damage they can inflict. This in itself doesn't really count enough to make U-Turn broken, but it does create an illusion that (using Genesect as an example) "Genesect is broken because it can hit hard and moderately fast with perfect coverage as well as escape counters with U-Turn." Notice that U-Turn isn't the root reason why Genesect is broken- good stats, good typing, awesome coverage, and a useful ability are why- but it does make Genesect a Pokemon that the meta will have trouble adjusting to because U-Turn gives it so much flexibility, fluidity, and the power to evade its counters whilst still dealing quite a lot of damage to the opponent. Tornadus-T is a similar case. It too is broken because it has outstanding stats, a solid movepool, and a useful ability. U-Turn is NOT the root reason why Tornadus-T is broken- it just makes Tornadus-T much harder to handle and manage by making it slippery as fuck and super hard to take down. U-Turn is not a direct factor to how much damage a certain Pokemon can inflict on its opponent- instead, it simply makes its users more durable in an offensive way, increasing the amount of time its users can spend dealing the damage in the first place. It does not work to make Pokemon more powerful; it works to offensively help them evade counters and walls and last longer, therefore letting them deal more damage and potentially become broken. U-Turn itself is not broken, but it does multiply and add onto broken traits, creating the illusion that it too is broken and needs to be suspected. However, that is not the case.
What do I mean by my first statement? Well, let me explain it in more detail. I feel as if U-Turn makes it harder for a potentially broken Pokemon to become managable through an alter in the general playstyle or teambuilding style of the metagame. This is because of the mechanics and effects of U-Turn - the fact that fast Pokemon can abuse U-Turn to both deal damage and pivot away from counters, thus making Pokemon that get U-Turn much harder to take down and stop, increasing the amount of damage they can inflict. This in itself doesn't really count enough to make U-Turn broken, but it does create an illusion that (using Genesect as an example) "Genesect is broken because it can hit hard and moderately fast with perfect coverage as well as escape counters with U-Turn." Notice that U-Turn isn't the root reason why Genesect is broken- good stats, good typing, awesome coverage, and a useful ability are why- but it does make Genesect a Pokemon that the meta will have trouble adjusting to because U-Turn gives it so much flexibility, fluidity, and the power to evade its counters whilst still dealing quite a lot of damage to the opponent. Tornadus-T is a similar case. It too is broken because it has outstanding stats, a solid movepool, and a useful ability. U-Turn is NOT the root reason why Tornadus-T is broken- it just makes Tornadus-T much harder to handle and manage by making it slippery as fuck and super hard to take down. U-Turn is not a direct factor to how much damage a certain Pokemon can inflict on its opponent- instead, it simply makes its users more durable in an offensive way, increasing the amount of time its users can spend dealing the damage in the first place. It does not work to make Pokemon more powerful; it works to offensively help them evade counters and walls and last longer, therefore letting them deal more damage and potentially become broken. U-Turn itself is not broken, but it does multiply and add onto broken traits, creating the illusion that it too is broken and needs to be suspected. However, that is not the case.
This is weird because U-Turn isn't even the 3rd most broken move (it's 4th) but since we're having this discussion, we might as well have it! I personally side with rey in that it's an unfair momentum gainer, I'm obviously not in favor of testing it yet because of what I said at the beginning, but I would echo that U-Turn is the safest move in the game and it unfairly could keep the momentum on one side.
Now the big flaw in this is that every broken U-Turn user worth its salt is almost out of OU lol. The list of mons that use it are Celebi/Jirachi/Landorus-T/Infernape/Landorus/Scizor. I would argue it's healthy on Celebi and Infernape, the former it keeps it safe from Tyranitar and Scizor switching in, and hurries up Celebi vs Celebi wars. The latter, it keeps it relevant with a Scarf set.
Jirachi, I'm somewhat okay with. I think it's good it has a way to escape Mag, but I think it's lame it can U-Turn vs a Heatran coming in and Jirachi can switch to Rotom-w/Starmie (the former is dangerous for Volt Switch especially). That can be really lame.
Scizor is the biggest offender, his U-Turn is actually very strong and keeps strong momentum.
Landorus-T is starting to shift away from U-Turn anyway.
Landorus could very well be getting banned but if not, he is tied with Scizor as the biggest offender, keeping even stronger momentum and an answer to counters for a trade in the power Scizor has.
With Torn-T, Genesect, and Landorus on their way out, I think U-Turn has some benefits for mons like Celebi that justifies it staying. I also couldn't say Torn-T and Gene would be OU with U-Turn gone because frankly, I think they'd be banned anyway.
I don't think it's fair to tell rey he should know better than this. There's no doubting its potency and that it's an unfair move when you break it down, but at the same time the game has quite a few of unfair moves and I don't think U-Turn is at the top of my list right now.
Now the big flaw in this is that every broken U-Turn user worth its salt is almost out of OU lol. The list of mons that use it are Celebi/Jirachi/Landorus-T/Infernape/Landorus/Scizor. I would argue it's healthy on Celebi and Infernape, the former it keeps it safe from Tyranitar and Scizor switching in, and hurries up Celebi vs Celebi wars. The latter, it keeps it relevant with a Scarf set.
Jirachi, I'm somewhat okay with. I think it's good it has a way to escape Mag, but I think it's lame it can U-Turn vs a Heatran coming in and Jirachi can switch to Rotom-w/Starmie (the former is dangerous for Volt Switch especially). That can be really lame.
Scizor is the biggest offender, his U-Turn is actually very strong and keeps strong momentum.
Landorus-T is starting to shift away from U-Turn anyway.
Landorus could very well be getting banned but if not, he is tied with Scizor as the biggest offender, keeping even stronger momentum and an answer to counters for a trade in the power Scizor has.
With Torn-T, Genesect, and Landorus on their way out, I think U-Turn has some benefits for mons like Celebi that justifies it staying. I also couldn't say Torn-T and Gene would be OU with U-Turn gone because frankly, I think they'd be banned anyway.
I don't think it's fair to tell rey he should know better than this. There's no doubting its potency and that it's an unfair move when you break it down, but at the same time the game has quite a few of unfair moves and I don't think U-Turn is at the top of my list right now.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Obviously there is going to be an inherent community bias simply by nature of suspecting a move, but it's one I feel should (eventually) be addressed.
If we are going for a skill-based metagame, U-Turn is a rather large inhibiting factor, plain and simple. It doesn't matter if the opponent predicts perfectly (or incorrectly) as the player with U-Turn will always be able to not only immediately attain the upper hand, but even do some damage at the same time (this is a rather significant issue for things like Landorus). It offers the same momentum as is obtained when you lose a pokemon, except without the huge sacrifice tacked on to justify it. Volt Switch is not as bad since the huge momentum lose from a choice Volt Switch on a ground/Volt Absorb poke makes it much less spammable, but the concept is still essentially the same.
Is it broken (if that term even has a proper definition at this point)? Perhaps not. But is Sand Veil broken? Is Moody broken? There is precedent for banning something that prevents the progression of the metagame towards one dominated by skill, and U-Turn in no way belongs in such a metagame.
If we are going for a skill-based metagame, U-Turn is a rather large inhibiting factor, plain and simple. It doesn't matter if the opponent predicts perfectly (or incorrectly) as the player with U-Turn will always be able to not only immediately attain the upper hand, but even do some damage at the same time (this is a rather significant issue for things like Landorus). It offers the same momentum as is obtained when you lose a pokemon, except without the huge sacrifice tacked on to justify it. Volt Switch is not as bad since the huge momentum lose from a choice Volt Switch on a ground/Volt Absorb poke makes it much less spammable, but the concept is still essentially the same.
Is it broken (if that term even has a proper definition at this point)? Perhaps not. But is Sand Veil broken? Is Moody broken? There is precedent for banning something that prevents the progression of the metagame towards one dominated by skill, and U-Turn in no way belongs in such a metagame.
For the pro-suspect side which is mainly focused on the switching aspects I have a question: What about Baton Pass. For this lets omit the notion of passing boosts and just look at the switching aspects, Baton Pass acts in a very similar fashion, switching after the opponent switches to scout, the only difference is that it doesn't do damage which it's switching. By your argument, they effectively do the same thing.
For the record, I am not trying create a strawman, I am legitimately wondering what they think about Baton Pass being used like U-turn in their example.
For the record, I am not trying create a strawman, I am legitimately wondering what they think about Baton Pass being used like U-turn in their example.
I think the damage on u-turn, even on really weak things like Celebi, is still a pretty significant factor. Taking 12.5% from SR and then another 10% or so on a non-resisted weak u-turn takes a toll very quickly, and I think that separates it quite a bit from Baton Pass. Baton Pass's distribution in OU isn't that great either. Celebi and Espeon are really the only common pokemon you see Baton used on in a way similar to U-turn/Volt Switch users. Jolteon can run it, but you rarely see it since it has a hard time competing for a slot over Thundurus-T.
Yeah distribution of the move plays a big part obviously. Baton Pass isnt as widely distributed, the same applies to Volt Switch which is like only on electric types. U-Turn is super distributed, does damage, and nothing is immune to it, making it the biggest culprit.
In addition, a Baton Pass user will never be hit by a fully powered Pursuit, whilst a faster user of U-turn will be.
Really guys? U-turn is just another skillful aspect of the game. A big part of the game is knowing when to not blindly switch into a counter of a pokemon. With the team preview right there to tell you what pokemon they have it is real easy to not be destroyed by this one move. Yes you get the one up on the switch but if you do good at team building you can gain the momentum back.... I don't have a problem with the game being determined by momentum... Most games and sports are like that. I don't want to see a game where it is just counter switching and double switching. I think SR and u-turn (and baton pass) bring extra life to the game by incorporating more skill and depth... Face it, your pokemon will take damage sometimes. That's not a bad thing.. I see pokemon like I do a chess game... (not saying pokemon is as skillful as chess) you make your moves in the opening (SR, spikes) then go to a middlegame where you can win there if your opponent blunders (a sweep). If you make it through the middlegame then you go to the endgame where most of the excitement happens and literally every move counts... Usually you can calculate a win at this point if luck doesn't come in. The point is I don't see how u-turn is broken. It is a good move but a risky move because like everything in this game it can be predicted and the momentum can shift. team preview also makes u-turn not as effective because you always have an idea of what they bring in... If you still lose then it is because of your play or team matchup. Also my last point is that the strongest u-turners are already banned (basically genesect i don't consider the other two banned because of u-turn) and the rest of the u-turners are slow (scizor, jirachi)....
MCBarrett
i love it when you call me big hoppa
How does wide distribution make it unfair? Wouldn't that make it more fair since it isn't exclusive to a select few mons, and since it is easily fit on to any team?
Also, there are a few negatives to using U-Turn such as potentially racking up hazard damage, taking damage before you switch out if you are slower, plus it is always possible (however I will agree not probable) to over predict or be out-predicted into a less favorable matchup especially later in a match when you have less options to switch in to. It definitely is not broken, just a very effective move that you have to be weary of during team building and during a match.
EDIT: Another negative to U-Turn is if you net a KO with it you are forced to switch in first, essentially giving your opponent the momentum.
The wide distribution makes it broken, because a lot of mons have access to it and is everywhere because of this. Baton Pass and Volt Switch are not on every team and because of that not such a big deal for the metagame. Think about V-Create, a 180 BP sounds pretty overpowered. But since only Victini (and Rayquaza in ubers) learn it, it is not a big deal for the metagame. This would be different, if every OU Pokemon had access to V-Create.
The only situation when U-Turn can be a bad choice if you are slower then your opponent and threatend by a OHKO. Like Scizor vs Latias with potential HP [Fire].
Otherwise the worst things to happen are a slower U-Turn and u-turning against things like Garchomp or Rocky Helmet Skarmory.
The only situation when U-Turn can be a bad choice if you are slower then your opponent and threatend by a OHKO. Like Scizor vs Latias with potential HP [Fire].
Otherwise the worst things to happen are a slower U-Turn and u-turning against things like Garchomp or Rocky Helmet Skarmory.
It doesn't matter how widespread it is, only how well the Pokemon who have it are able to use it. V-Create isn't overpowered because no Pokemon is overpowered with it. To put it one way, if a bunch of really crap Pokemon got V-Create, would it become a more OP move? Or, to put in another way, Rayquaza is an Uber Pokemon with V-Create. Victini, meanwhile, is UU. Does the fact that Rayquaza is overpowered for OU with V-Create mean that V-Create is also overpowered on Victini?
thats the whole point kiddo, a good amount of shit can use U-Turn to a great extent, thats what we mean with great distribution
Yet there are plenty of Pokemon who aren't OP with U-turn, which seems to suggest that U-turn in and of itself (you know, the criteria for banning a move or ability as opposed to the Pokemon that with it) isn't broken.
Guess what, the same can be said for Sand Veil.
Honestly, I'm getting tired of the "ban everything good" philosophy that Smogon seems to have adopted. U-turn is a move. If Genesect was broken with that move, then -- hey, Genesect was rightly banned. U-turn is part of the game. There are many ways to combat it, and many teams can be successful without it. It takes skill to use (unlike Evasion/Sheer Cold etc). I wish people would look for ways to take on these threats, rather than simply removing them.
Incidentally, I think the above also applies to Keldeo. (Obviously it's not a move.) It's very useful, and thus sees a lot of use. That doesn't mean it's broken.
This also applied to Deoxys-D, but that's old news by now.
Incidentally, I think the above also applies to Keldeo. (Obviously it's not a move.) It's very useful, and thus sees a lot of use. That doesn't mean it's broken.
This also applied to Deoxys-D, but that's old news by now.
Eh I don't think Sand Veil is a good comparison for a variety of reasons, mainly being an ability to start off with as opposed to a move, and furthermore because it was banned for blatant hax reasons.
I do agree though, just because something isn't broken on everything or even most Pokemon (lets face it most pokemon are trash) that doesn't make it not broken, if broken on relevant Pokemon.
Also, just wondering, but when was the last time smogon banned a move its self? (not move combos)
I do agree though, just because something isn't broken on everything or even most Pokemon (lets face it most pokemon are trash) that doesn't make it not broken, if broken on relevant Pokemon.
Also, just wondering, but when was the last time smogon banned a move its self? (not move combos)
i agree that u-turn is a part of the game [even though i voted broken in the poll] but i'm indifferent as to whether it's ever tested or not, because as you said it's a part of the game. anyways i replied because smogon doesn't have a "ban everything good philosophy". there's a point where we have to taken what we're given with pokemon as a competitive game but the shit that we do with tiering etc is to make the metagame more enjoyable for the people who play it, for example landorus is on the chopping block because it's ridiculously powerful and can function with little risk, i'm just one person but i think the meta would be a lot better without landorus threatening to ko something or uturn to ttar to kill off one of its counters that presumably switches in, every time landorus gets sent out. also i'd argue uturn doesnt take skill to use, it's basically a free prediction to what your opponent switches to, you didn't have to predict or anything, and now you have the momentum, just because you clicked uturn
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Wut
No
That's the whole point. There are absolutely ZERO ways to combat it. Switch in a bug resist? U-turn to counter. Don't switch in a bug resist? Take decent damage and u-turn to a counter. Be the best pokemon player ever and have perfect prediction all match? U-turn to a counter.
You can't hope to evaluate a move as broken in and of itself because it isn't a pokemon. It is much more complex than saying "arceus can sweep the meta: ban" or "giratina can wall the meta: ban." It is an integral part of the current metagame and if anybody believes its status can be judged as simply as anything else (as is the case with banning almost all moves and the like) then they either lack an incredibly basic grasp of the metagame or they carry with them an inherent conservative bias.
Wow... Zero ways to combat it? How about just staying in and taking a hit for once.... I don't know if you know this but you don't have to switch every time a counter comes in. Also you don't have to switch to a counter every time one of your opponents pokemon is already in. Its called not being predictable.... There are so few pokemon with u-turn that what you just said just seems almost laughable. I hate discussing things so generally without any specifics so lets actually see which viable pokemon have uturn....
Gliscor
Hydregon
Celebi
Lando
Scizor
jirachi
infernape
Are you saying that there are zero ways to combat these pokemon? With good use of the team preview all of these pokemon can be beaten pretty easily with or without them having u-turn... Yes you might get one upped one time or another if someone has a u-turn gliscor or jirachi but guess what? You know their set now and you can use that information for later. Additionally I just for the fuck of me can't see how the reasoning of: "he u-turns to a counter game over" makes any sense? if you get fooled once then maybe you should change up your game plan and don't get fooled again. Make a good switch next time and move on... Instead of mindlessly switching to a counter you should switch to pokemon whom he cannot deal with... Keldeo is a good example of this... It can come in on most u-turns and just be ready to attack anything.. Most dragons (like dragonite) can serve the role of reverse momentum grabber due to their tremendous bulk and high attacking power. You got to use the team preview and think. Not to mention these pokemon have to switch in to something.... None of these pokemon can switch into a ton of attacks... If they can then they probably have a piss poor u-turn that may even help me if I have rocks up.... Never let your opponent just get away with anything. Make him scared to use u-turn...... I think it is foolish to assume that everyone plays like you do and every scenario happens just like you said.
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