Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

[akuto]

The only thing about this set is again, shadow force arceus. It OHKO's gira-o at +2. And as we know we don't NEED a spin blocker.

 

[blitzlefan]

Giratina-O is still weak to Arceus-Ghost, and is really slow, which means scarf Dragons will maul our team. I personally don't think we need a spinblocker, but it's up to you guys.

 

[Bossness]

Yeah, I don't think a spinblocker is necessary. They are either slow (Giratina-O), weak (Giratina-A) or unable to prevent spinning (Arceus-Ghost; loses to SD Excadrill and Tentacruel sets up Toxic Spikes on it while Forretress's Toxic ruins the Calm Mind set).

 

[tutterydiglett]

;_;
Ok then, lets take a look at Kingdra and Kabu. How can we counter these two mons? I cant exactly think of anything, but Rayquaza can come in and Air Lock their speed away, and OHKO each with either Draco Meteor.

252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 689-814 (235.95 - 278.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 442-523 (169.34 - 200.38%) -- guaranteed OHKO

EKiller Arceus also cant OHKO Rayquaza without a boost, while the Dragon can deal over 70% with Draco Meteor.

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Rayquaza: 198-234 (56.41 - 66.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Normal: 285-335 (70.71 - 83.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then again, Arceus can just first nab a boost and then KO Rayquaza...but Terrakion can come in and KO with CC either way. What do you guys think?

 

[blitzlefan]

Q-Q-Q-QUAZA!!!
I really do like Rayquaza, and the DD or SD variants are especially threatening, and can secure a LOT of KOs with the hazards that Deoxys-S provides. Also, Dialga can deal with Kingdra, if need be.

However, Rayquaza's REALLY frail, but it does have a nice movepool. V-Create and Earthquake will help this team a lot.

 

[Brave Bird spam]

I'm not the biggest fan of rayquaza, but if we decide not to use a spinblocker (which is not a bad idea at all), I think it's the thing that will make this team click. I think SD or mixed DD variants are the best choices at this point because normal DD variants are so outrage reliant that they might give forretress a free rapid spin, which means deoxys-s basically got wasted (unless it's really late game and the hazards have already done a lot of damage).

 

[jackm]

Yeah, Ray seems like (despite depriving us of a spinblocker, which could pose a major problem) it's the key to this team's success. Though it can have issues against Kingdra unless it's scarf (DD exists) we have Dialga as a secondary check.

Also guys, I'm on vacation right now so don't lose interest in this project if there's a marginal delay between when something SHOULD happen and when it does. I'll try to be as prompt as possible, but I have limited internet access.

 

[Bossness]

Darkrai @ Life Orb
Trait: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Dark Void
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse

I would just like to point out that using Substitute alongside Life Orb is not a good way to use Darkrai. Leftovers is a good idea if you want to give it a greater chance to beat Bulky Arceus formes and Dread Plate is an option if you want to retain power without the recoil.

 

[blitzlefan]

In both cases, for Giratina-O and Rayquaza, scarfed Dragons scare this team a lot. Needing Dialga to tank every Dragon-type move aimed at our team puts a LOT of pressure on it. Deoxys-S, Terrakion, Darkrai, Latios, Giratina-O, and Rayquaza will NOT like taking a Draco Meteor or Outrage. Chances are, they'll be easily KO'd, and Defensive Dialga can only take so much.

... not really sure what we can do about this, except Arceus-Steel > Dialga (it was my set so maybe I can suggest this?) does anybody have any ideas around our lack of Dragon resistances or any comments about this idea?

 

[lousy918]

yeah, the SDef steelceus by trickroom over dialga imo
dialga's not doing much damage anyway

 

[akuto]

maybe we could use a scarf mewtwo?

 

[blitzlefan]

Maybe just the standard CM Arceus- Steel? Because seeing as Darkrai beats it, we no longer have to dedicate our Arceus form completely to stopping Arceus-Ghost. Mono attacking with roar could work too, but sacrifices coverage I suppose

 

[Brave Bird spam]

We could also use will-o-wisp for (scarf)chomp and offensive groudon, both of which are big threats seeing as latios (and ray if we pick it) are destroyed by dragon claw from either one. But yeah, arceus-steel seems like a pretty good choice.

 

[Go10]

Can someone edit the first post and made it clear on who we are building and what are the actual mates ?

 

[tutterydiglett]

Can someone edit the first post and made it clear on who we are building and what are the actual mates ?

We are currently discussing the last member of our weatherless offense team and the teammates are:



Latios @ Soul Dew
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Grass Knot
- HP Fire
- Psyshock

courtesy of Sweep


Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Punch
- Spikes
- Taunt

courtesy of Anikrahman1995



Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -SAtk)
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- X-Scissor
- Toxic

courtesy of Lousy918



Dialga @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 48 SAtk / 200 SDef / 8 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Roar
- Thunder Wave

courtesy of blitzlefan


Darkrai @ Life Orb
Trait: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Dark Void
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse

courtesy of Jackm

 

[Go10]

The last slot is obviously for arceus

Also, before saying anything, I think it'd help a lot if below every pokemon, you write down why you chose that pokemon and why not anyone else. For example, I dont understand why you'd take Terrakion when we are so weak to Darkrai and Mewtwo. Atm, they can just spam their moves and kill shit.

 

[lousy918]

its like at some put I put Jirachi but you picked on terrakion instead of dialga
especially when dialga doesn't offer much synergy, while jirachi happens to beat mewtwo (and cm ghostceus)

 

[tutterydiglett]

Wait, me? I didn't participate in voting any of these Pokemon because I joined this chat..like last week? Everyone voted on it, so I guess we have to base our team around those 5 Pokemon.

 

[akuto]

how does jirachi beat mewtwo??????????????????????????????

mewtwo just so happens to pack cm and fire blast
​

 

[blitzlefan]

Well, Psycho Killer Mewtwo vs. Wish Support Jirachi

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Jirachi: 58-68 (14.35 - 16.83%) -- 9HKO at best

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Jirachi: 108-127 (26.73 - 31.43%) -- possible 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Jirachi: 57-67 (14.1 - 16.58%) -- 9HKO at best

and Jirachi can simply stall with Toxic / Wish or U-Turn to gain momentum.

Only Mewtwo with Fire Blast can beat Jirachi, but in rain,

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Jirachi in rain: 143-169 (35.39 - 41.83%) -- 84.5% chance to 3HKO

(this will hit hard outside of Rain though)

Lastly, we picked Dialga for its ability to beat a majority of weather abusers and check Arceus-Ghost, but seeing as we have Darkrai (and hopefully Rayquaza), we'll be able to (possibly) replace Dialga with something more reliable, seeing as the two I mentioned can cover the roles we initially wanted Dialga to cover. Lastly, Jirachi was not picked possibly because it loses offensive momentum, seeing as it has a relatively low offensive presence.

 

[akuto]

Well, Psycho Killer Mewtwo vs. Wish Support Jirachi

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Jirachi: 58-68 (14.35 - 16.83%) -- 9HKO at best

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Jirachi: 108-127 (26.73 - 31.43%) -- possible 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Jirachi: 57-67 (14.1 - 16.58%) -- 9HKO at best

and Jirachi can simply stall with Toxic / Wish or U-Turn to gain momentum.

Only Mewtwo with Fire Blast can beat Jirachi, but in rain,

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Jirachi in rain: 143-169 (35.39 - 41.83%) -- 84.5% chance to 3HKO

(this will hit hard outside of Rain though)

Lastly, we picked Dialga for its ability to beat a majority of weather abusers and check Arceus-Ghost, but seeing as we have Darkrai (and hopefully Rayquaza), we'll be able to (possibly) replace Dialga with something more reliable, seeing as the two I mentioned can cover the roles we initially wanted Dialga to cover. Lastly, Jirachi was not picked possibly because it loses offensive momentum, seeing as it has a relatively low offensive presence.

problem #1 jirachi can't OHKO with u-turn bearly3HKO
problem #2 We don't have weather and most mewtwos are not in rain.

But i agree on dialga we need to replace him with a more viable check to dragons

 

[blitzlefan]

problem #1 jirachi can't OHKO with u-turn bearly3HKO
problem #2 We don't have weather and most mewtwos are not in rain.

But i agree on dialga we need to replace him with a more viable check to dragons

1. Yes, true, I did say that Jirachi has low offensive presence, but U-Turn is not for attacking purposes. The damage from U-Turn does add to LO recoil and other residual damage, which is a plus, but the point of U-Turn is to slowly switch out to a scarfed / priority user to revenge kill Mewtwo. Seeing as Mewtwo can't take down Jirachi in most circumstances, and Mewtwo is naturally faster than Jirachi, it is almost guaranteed that the revenge killer you wish to use will come in relatively unscathed. This combined with possible Wish support makes it usesful.

2. I'm not sure just how relevant Mewtwo vs. Jirachi is to the CCAT, but seeing as we have no control over the weather, Jirachi is at risk of being 2HKO'd in neutral weather or OHKO'd in Sun. That's probably one of the reasons we didn't pick Jirachi. However, outside of the CCAT, Jirachi is one of the better checks/counters (which one is it?) to Mewtwo seeing as it will be able to do the things mentioned above as well and have rain support as well.

 

[lousy918]

mewtwo using fire blast is ttar pursuit bait
also akuto i was making a point of jirachi vs dialga for a spot on the team, and dialga does not beat mewtwo rly well

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Dialga: 359-424 (88.86 - 104.95%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Dialga: 239-283 (59.15 - 70.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

56+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo: 178-211 (50.28 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

meaning after I hit you with any attack on the switch in I can just cm and take the draco, then OHKO with aura sphere.

also 14.8% of mewtwo carry aura sphere while 3% carry fire blast
gratz

 

[jackm]

Random note before I start my actual contribution: I have Darkrai carrying Life Orb because it gives us a guaranteed 2HKO on +1 Arceus-Ghost after SR. Leftovers eliminates that opportunity entirely. Considering our method of handling it is with a Dark Void followed with Dark Pulse spam or NP+Dark Pulse, the fewer turns we use are the better. Dread Plate is an option, but we only get 78.91% odds.

Now... what to do, what to do. Several threats that need to be addressed have been brought up, and if we want to avoid redundancy it's becoming clear that we're going to need to reassign a teamslot or two. Unfortunately, we've dug ourselves into a pretty deep hole, as solving one problem is inevitably going to lead us into redundancy. Replacing Dialga with SDef Jirachi seems like quite a good idea, although we will inevitably kill offensive momentum by using it unless we opt to do something ridiculous like run CM Jirachi in Ubers. (you asked for innovation, you've got it) Jirachi would help leaps and bounds against Scarfed dragons and Mewtwo, but it unfortunately opens us up to one of the specific things that Dialga actually blocked quite well, namely weather sweepers. Of course, we have a sixth slot, so we could run something like Giratina-O.

tl;dr: CM Jirachi (aka sir Walledbylots) over Dialga, Giratina-O of some sort in the last slot.

 

[blitzlefan]

What are your thoughts on Arceus-Steel? I think it could serve relatively the same purpose, but has higher bulk in general and is a better CM mono-attacker (and Recover does work more effectively in a pinch). It also has a lot more offensive presence than Jirachi as well considerably better stats. It takes less damage from Fire Blast, but obviously takes a lot more from Aura Sphere.