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Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear
- Thread starter jackm
- Start date
I think Expert Belt is very good too, you have a 1.2x boost damage for all situations (if you use the super effective move of course) except for a mon that you hit super effective with none of your attacks (what is very rare coming from Spacial Rend, Hydro Pump, Fire Blast and Thunder), unlike Lustrous Orb when you get 1.2x only for your STABs which could be helpful in a situation like Spacial Rend vs low-mid health Dialga.
I would just LOVE to say for the record that no set is perfect. all sets are going to have a counter. your set as counter's and so does mine. my set is a GIMMICK not a hardcore disgustingly predictable one. if u want to be rude to me thats fine. if u want to diss my set thats fine. what u basically just said is "my set is superior than yours and your set is horrible." well it can be true in SOME situations but my set WILL work in alot of situations.
I think palkia lustrious orb would be the choice. if we run Expert Belt in clutch situations like i need to OK this darkrai when i wake up or my whole team is screwed "being nasty plot no focus sash 4 SPEC-D" i ran some dmg calcs and with Expert Belt "modest max spec attak" it will do 77.7-91.1% as the alternative lustrious orb will OHKO so i think we should run lustrious orb
@ Vincent, that's a good point you bring up! Expert Belt let it hit stuff like Ferrothorn and Forretress, Kyogre, etc. quite a bit harder so Palkia will do an even better job at wallbreaking, while Lustrous Orb is more reliable and allows for more damage output on Arceus forms neutral to Palkia's coverage moves, notably Arceus-Normal, Ghost, etc. Depends really on what role Palkia will play, I think. Will it act as a lure/wallbreaker with its excellent coverage to take down defensive mons like Ferrothorn? Or will it act as a late-game sweeper and rely on strong neutral STAB hits to take down the opposition? I think that Expert Belt could actually work better, as we have an Arceus form we can use for late-game sweeping. (EK EK EK EK EK EK EK EK EK)
@akuto
@akuto
I'll PM you later... I'm kind of tired and I don't want to argue in the CCAT. there's no point.
i see your point blitz/vinc palkia can perform that roll very well with expert belt. i think but standerd kyogre will NOT be OHKO by expert belt kyogre hit by thunder and regular dmg to specially defensive ferro will be an OK without expert belt "not counting min dmg" but I've rolled expert belt and it did an excellent job so i would say yes
To be honest,I prefer Lustrous Orb Palkia too.I mentioned CS Palkia for it's ability to sweep late game abusing the holes created by Latios. I had a hard time finding any other pokes that can do that other CM Arceus lol. If you guys think that we should run Lustrous variant to he a hole punching partner with Latios then I'm fine with it.We can select a sweeper later.But keep in mind Lustrous Orb Palkia is too slow to sweep.It'll mainly work as a lure for steel types,so I guess Palkia+Latios will make a good wallbreaking core.Expert Belt doesn't really benefit us much,since most of the pokes Palkia will hit with it's coverage moves will be OHKOed/2HKOed anyway regardless of the item.
Dialga is another good choice since offensively, it's similar to Palkia and has better defensive synergy.But rather than an all out attacking set,I think a slightly bulky Thunder wave+3 attacks set will be more useful. Dialga can use it's powerful STAB Dragon attacks and coverage moves to help Latios break through the opposing team while helping against faster threats with Twave. Dialga would be an excellent offensive Twave user since it can live hits such as an unboosted Aura Sphere from Mewtwo,LO Focus Blast from Darkrai etc.
@akuto: Running Draco Meteor+Outrage is not a bad combo at all,infact thanks to Dragon types great neutral coverage and since most walls usually have one weak side,it's very good for wallbreaking.BUT that only works if you have something to threaten steel types. Rayquaza and Salamence,the original users of this combo has Fire Blast,Overheat and Earthquake to kill of steel types,which your Giratina-O set lacks.It's set up bait for Forretress and Ferrothorn. Plus,since your set doesn't have any defensive investments,it will fail to check Ekiller,one of the reasons to consider Giratina-O as a teammate in the first place.It could work on a different role,but not the role we need it to perform imo.And your reply post to blitzlefan didn't have information regarding why your set could be useful :/
Hmmm... well... Palkia fills a couple of roles I think. Palkia can take down some Genesect (if Palkia is Scarfed or Genesect in un-Scarfed), has Steel-killing moves (but not independent of weather per say), is a pretty fast cleaner, and forms a good offensive core with Latios in terms of wallbreaking.
When I have time (I'm in chemistry right now lol), I'm going to suggest a new Pokemon: Deoxys-S, originally suggested by Anikrahman1995. Deoxys-S will provide the hazards we need to overcome the lack of power that we will face without weather, and is a decent way to prevent hazards from ending on our side of the field (with Taunt).
One thing that I think we need to consider (maybe before going on to pick partners) is what excuse we are going to have for going weatherless. I could see how a team could end up weatherless without intending it as they might have found no need for weather and didn't want something so slow. (Or they wanted a different typing/coverage) However, since we are planning on no weather ahead of time we'll need to find a good reason to do so otherwise we'll just end up with a team that wants weather but is trying to work without it. Sadly, finding a good excuse is pretty hard as the weather starters are actually good themselves (and not just added to teams that need the support like in OU). The best excuses I can think of are that we want fast members to help keep offensive pressure, we already have their roles covered, and we already have support and don't need more and/or can't run more. I think asking for fast members is already a fair enough demand for a Hyper Offensive team (which is what I think we should be building). Latios already helps make Ogre/Don a bit redundant role wise as it has already covered the wall breaking slot. (Groudon can still fill a sweeping role but that is pretty easy to cover with generally more capable members) As far as support goes, though, it looks like we'll need to run a Hazards Offense team as it'll force us to use hazards setters as well as a Spin Blocker. Anyways, just something to think about. I'll comment more later when I have the time.
Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Punch
- Spikes
- Taunt
courtesy of Anikrahman1995
I think that hazard offense is probably the best way to go, as without the power boost granted by weather (and some of the moves it benefits), we'll be hard pressed to guarantee the knockouts that we want. Deoxys-S is hands down one of the best/most reliable Spikes setter in the tier, so I would like to propose this set.
Alternate options: Ferrothorn? Forretress? Skarmory? Deoxys-D, if we want to try that?
Suggestions/Comments/Concerns?
Edit: @ lousy918: You're right. I forgot Skarmory (Wow, Steven, way to go. I suck. XD). But the above mentioned were just the first couple entry hazard users that came to my mind. Feel free to suggest anything you'd like. :) Actually, I'd really like to see some more suggestions. The CCAT, and the Ubers forum in general, needs more love. 3 2 1 GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
if we go weatherless weather will screw us up. i propose we go Anti-Weather since kyogre is such a big threat. And i have joined this late as far as i know i see that we have plakia and latios can someone fill me in?
and i think Deo-S if we were to use him should run ice beam. for dragon type reasons because dragon types are the most common of types in ubers and if we were to preserve Deo-S to save that ice-beam we would need a spinner for hazards
and i think Deo-S if we were to use him should run ice beam. for dragon type reasons because dragon types are the most common of types in ubers and if we were to preserve Deo-S to save that ice-beam we would need a spinner for hazards
Can you elaborate on what you mean by anti-weather? Actually, can somebody/anybody explain to me what anti-weather is, I'm not really sure about this one... (lol i fail)
Also, regarding Deo-S, what do you suggest Ice Beam over? Stealth Rock and Spikes are obviously mandatory, and Taunt prevents Forretress from laying Spikes everywhere. Fire Punch would be the only move to run Ice Beam over, but it hits Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Genesect extremely hard. However, Ice Beam can hit Rayquaza, Salamence, Lati@s, etc. for decent damage as well. Thoughts?
yeah fire punch would seem the best thing to replace, I would run ice beam over fire punch because we have palkia and latios for wallbreakers. when we need a cheap/good hit we got ice beam. And anti-weather is a little self explanatory. basically u have a poke that will counter the weather poke HARD. than u can use the move hail since it is the least common weather in tiers ou-ubers. so basically they have no rain/sun/SS and hail will be gone in 5 turns that is long story short about anti-weather.
Hmmm... I'm on the fence about Ice Beam, since Deoxys-S lures out Scarf Genesect (which beats Latios), and wrecks it with Fire Punch. 252 Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 276-328 (97.52 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO. But Ice Beam does deal with the Dragons pretty well. Also, perhaps Thunder Wave could be run? I've seen it used, and it's pretty effective in crippling mons that would otherwise outspeed and beat Latios and Palkia.
The OP however states that we can't use weather of any sort (including Hail). Also, if we center our team around beating a weather inducer, what happens when they don't have one? Say we run Kingdra, but they have a Sun team. Aren't we screwed then? Preparing for weather properly though (Palkia/Latios beat Kyogre and Latios beats Groudon) is extremely important though.
Edit:
@akuto: The calculation was for Deoxys-S' Fire Punch on Genesect (just making sure I clear this up); Deoxys-S can reliably get rid of Genesect while still fulfilling its intended role. Also, you're right, I should probably shift those EVs to Defense so Genesect doesn't get the Attack boost. But, Deoxys-S is hardpressed to tank anything at all anyway, so that's why we have Focus Sash. And Thunder Wave seems interesting, and reminds me of Dark Void / Thunder Wave Darkrai. Also, if you need a good damage calculator, I use http://honko.byethost8.com/manly_calc.html (lol if you use the same one).
Also, I feel like I'm dominating this discussion. I'm going to shut up now. I have a whopping 6 posts on this page alone. So everybody, let's get posting! :)
i guess that could be possible but i ran some damage calcs genesect was not on there so i used someone with similar base attack and changed him to a bug type for STAB, without +1 will not OHKO 71.5% - 84.1% but with +1 it will OHKO. So i guess you can go either way on whether u want to run fire punch or ice beam. we always have room for more checks for genesect and the dragon types. and T-wave doesn't sound like that much of a bad idea, my opinion is that we can't really utilize it V sand teams making deo-S a setup fodder but for inducer moves or moves with momentum like Echoed voice arceus.
About the weather it is alright that we can't use weather we can play around it or find a good counter for both rain and sun like our palkia who has both Hydro pump and fire blast or other pokes with a mixed movepool like that. or a pokemon who can benohit from one of them with a ability. if thats the case than we should have a mon that can benefit AND do some work without weather
Well, jackm's first post said:
Since the team's main purpose is to be weatherless, i think we could select another mon to built the team around, something like Rayquaza whose ability has everything to do with, but if the choice is unchangeable, then i'm suggesting for us to FIRST select one or two pokemons that can act as a good check/counter/switch in/whatever against the Weather Inducers and/or the Weather Abusers, and ONLY THEN select the offensive sinergy for Latios (Latios itself and its offensive sinergy mons can check some of the Weather mons, so the "FIRST" and "ONLY THEN" would come at same time in such ocasions).
Latios itself is a very good "anti-weather" poke as it can beat Kyogre,Groudon,Hippo and Ttar after some prior damage.By the way,weather abusers include Ho-oh,Reshiram,Kyogre,Swift Swimmers,Excadrill,SV Garchomp,Rock/Fire/Water Arceus.So how are we going to 'counter' them lol. We need to play stall for that.Rayquaza can check SS sweepers/Excadrill, Arceus-Fight can help against Sand,Latios can beat Groudon,Kyogre,thats pretty much it when speaking of advantage against weather.So when speaking in general I don't see how we can select just one or two pokemon to "counter" or "check" all weather sweepers XD.What we can do is make a team that matches up against common weather teams.It is a characteristic that the whole team can have,not just one or two pokemon.For that,each time we pick a member,we can analyze our team and select our next picks accordingly so that the end product has good match up against common weather archtypes. We have Latios,a Kyogre switch in,Groudon check and it's potential partners Palkia and Dialga also have their advantages.It's a start.
Another thing,we are just throwing around ideas for possible teammates not actually nominating them to vote on.As far as I know,CCAT's process is that,members of the community nominate mons with their sets to be picked and we discuss their advantages and disadvantages.Later,we vote on the set which we think is the best pick at that time.
Another thing,we are just throwing around ideas for possible teammates not actually nominating them to vote on.As far as I know,CCAT's process is that,members of the community nominate mons with their sets to be picked and we discuss their advantages and disadvantages.Later,we vote on the set which we think is the best pick at that time.
Blitzle please don't stop posting, as long as you are contributing to the discussion (which you are) Ubers welcomes your posts no matter the number. (Like you said, we need the activity and active discussion lures it in)
Anyways, I'm going to build of my last post with two things.
1. Stop looking at Ray as a weatherless mon. (I mean in the same way that you look at Kyogre or Groudon to lead Rain/Sun teams) All Air Lock does is let it throw around Fire Blasts and V-Creates without worry and let it check weather abusers. (only speed wise for the most part)
2. Speaking of weather abusers we'll need to make sure to address them. By weather abusers, I mean those that can outspeed and sweep our team thanks to having constant weather in their favor. (Exception is Blaze who gets the speed regardless but the constant Sun makes Flare Blitz nasty) The main weather abusers we should worry about are Blaziken, Kabutops, Excadrill and Kingdra. (The rest are tend to share similar checks due to poorer coverage, already handled by Latios, or are too slow to outspeed average Choice Scarf users) There are two ways to handle these threats. One is that we can run general checks like Prankster abusers (Thundy-I and Sableye), Rayquaza, speedy scarfmons (like Mewtwo), Priority (like Ekiller or Bisharp), Intimidate (doesn't really do much but it can help) or Choice Scarf Ditto. The other is that we actually run hard checks/counters to these threats.
Solid offensive choices to handle
Blaziken: A bulky Giratina-O is pretty much our only option (although that's not really a hard thing to fit). We can also use a bulky fire-resistant Arceus that doesn't fear High Jump Kick.
Kabutops: Again, bulky Tina-O fares pretty well against Tops. Anther specialized Arceus form, like Grassceus, can handle it fairly well. (Adament Tops is also slower than ScarfTerrak)
Excadrill: Geez, just add Tina-O to the team and call it a day. Lando-T laughs at Sand Rush Excadrill as well. As always, there's an Arceus form that we can use to deal with him. (like Grassceus, again)
Kingdra: (Darn it Tina-O, you couldn't beat them all) Kingdra is actually pretty hard to handle if Rain is always up. Ferrothorn can beat it easily enough but he gives up momentum for an offensive team (still gives it Spikes, though). A bulky Dialga can be used as a one time check but will not be able to directly switch in. Wobbufett can come in after a kill and trap it. Latios can be used to force it to Outrage but it'll still have to watch out for Draco Meteor. A water-resistant Arceus form, like Grassceus, can deal with it easily enough.
Anyways, these are some things to consider before we start nomming a lot of things. We may also want to consider what general build we want our team to look like first. We can always go hazards offense with general team looking like Hazard lead + Spin block + Scarf + Core + Core + Latios (Wall Breaker) or just stack up on sweepers and have something like SR + Latios (Wall Breaker) + Scarf + Core + Core + Core. In general, though, having hazards offense lead looks like the most reliable way to handle this. (See my earlier post for a more some ideas on possible members for these roles)
Anyways, I'm going to build of my last post with two things.
1. Stop looking at Ray as a weatherless mon. (I mean in the same way that you look at Kyogre or Groudon to lead Rain/Sun teams) All Air Lock does is let it throw around Fire Blasts and V-Creates without worry and let it check weather abusers. (only speed wise for the most part)
2. Speaking of weather abusers we'll need to make sure to address them. By weather abusers, I mean those that can outspeed and sweep our team thanks to having constant weather in their favor. (Exception is Blaze who gets the speed regardless but the constant Sun makes Flare Blitz nasty) The main weather abusers we should worry about are Blaziken, Kabutops, Excadrill and Kingdra. (The rest are tend to share similar checks due to poorer coverage, already handled by Latios, or are too slow to outspeed average Choice Scarf users) There are two ways to handle these threats. One is that we can run general checks like Prankster abusers (Thundy-I and Sableye), Rayquaza, speedy scarfmons (like Mewtwo), Priority (like Ekiller or Bisharp), Intimidate (doesn't really do much but it can help) or Choice Scarf Ditto. The other is that we actually run hard checks/counters to these threats.
Solid offensive choices to handle
Blaziken: A bulky Giratina-O is pretty much our only option (although that's not really a hard thing to fit). We can also use a bulky fire-resistant Arceus that doesn't fear High Jump Kick.
Kabutops: Again, bulky Tina-O fares pretty well against Tops. Anther specialized Arceus form, like Grassceus, can handle it fairly well. (Adament Tops is also slower than ScarfTerrak)
Excadrill: Geez, just add Tina-O to the team and call it a day. Lando-T laughs at Sand Rush Excadrill as well. As always, there's an Arceus form that we can use to deal with him. (like Grassceus, again)
Kingdra: (Darn it Tina-O, you couldn't beat them all) Kingdra is actually pretty hard to handle if Rain is always up. Ferrothorn can beat it easily enough but he gives up momentum for an offensive team (still gives it Spikes, though). A bulky Dialga can be used as a one time check but will not be able to directly switch in. Wobbufett can come in after a kill and trap it. Latios can be used to force it to Outrage but it'll still have to watch out for Draco Meteor. A water-resistant Arceus form, like Grassceus, can deal with it easily enough.
Anyways, these are some things to consider before we start nomming a lot of things. We may also want to consider what general build we want our team to look like first. We can always go hazards offense with general team looking like Hazard lead + Spin block + Scarf + Core + Core + Latios (Wall Breaker) or just stack up on sweepers and have something like SR + Latios (Wall Breaker) + Scarf + Core + Core + Core. In general, though, having hazards offense lead looks like the most reliable way to handle this. (See my earlier post for a more some ideas on possible members for these roles)
All right Melee Mewtwo, I'll keep posting like normal. I'm just dying to post anyway. It's killing me! XD Ughh...!!! Thanks! :) Also, are we allowed to start suggesting Pokemon for the team (like real submissions for voting, or are we still just discussing possibilities?)
So anyways, I'm liking the Giratina-O! I see no BIG reason not to use it, but obviously that's just my opinion. Also, as Melee Mewtwo pointed out, it can take down a lot of the weather-dependent abusers, though to completely fulfill the role, it will need different offensive options (than those on my set) unless phazing them out or crippling them with Will-O-Wisp is enough. However, Giratina-O will put us in danger of being swept by a scarfed Dragon (or Arceus-Dragon), so a powerful priority user (yes, I'm really big on the Extreme Killer for two forms of priority), or a durable Steel type (say Ferrothorn or Arceus-Steel) would probably be needed. However, it does act as an excellent spinblocker if Hazards Offense is what we end up going with.
So anyways, I'm liking the Giratina-O! I see no BIG reason not to use it, but obviously that's just my opinion. Also, as Melee Mewtwo pointed out, it can take down a lot of the weather-dependent abusers, though to completely fulfill the role, it will need different offensive options (than those on my set) unless phazing them out or crippling them with Will-O-Wisp is enough. However, Giratina-O will put us in danger of being swept by a scarfed Dragon (or Arceus-Dragon), so a powerful priority user (yes, I'm really big on the Extreme Killer for two forms of priority), or a durable Steel type (say Ferrothorn or Arceus-Steel) would probably be needed. However, it does act as an excellent spinblocker if Hazards Offense is what we end up going with.
I really like the idea of cm grasseus
Stops sand and rain simultaneously, which frees up a lot of team slots
Also are we gonna include the move sunny day/rain dance/sandstorm/hail?
I'm assuming u only meant autoinducers
After we take out the opponent's weather starter we can destroy their weather
Hail seems to be the best option as not much can benefit from it
Stops sand and rain simultaneously, which frees up a lot of team slots
Also are we gonna include the move sunny day/rain dance/sandstorm/hail?
I'm assuming u only meant autoinducers
After we take out the opponent's weather starter we can destroy their weather
Hail seems to be the best option as not much can benefit from it
Alright, discussion has been going well, keep it up guys! I've been really busy irl lately which is why I haven't been contributing as much, but I'm going to work at it more. Anyways, the point of this post is as follows: Submissions for our first (and possibly last) secondary offensive core team member are now open!
I've chosen to determine our offensive core first, due to the facts that the discussion has been revolving around it for the most part and it is our core, after all. Please please please make intelligent submissions. Seriously guys, if you don't provide a convincing argument for why your Pokemon should be chosen I reserve the right to omit it from the vote. First 10 submissions get in.
I've chosen to determine our offensive core first, due to the facts that the discussion has been revolving around it for the most part and it is our core, after all. Please please please make intelligent submissions. Seriously guys, if you don't provide a convincing argument for why your Pokemon should be chosen I reserve the right to omit it from the vote. First 10 submissions get in.
Well... if we're doing an offensive core first, then I would like to propose:
DIALGA!!!
Dialga @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
Take a look at this:
Although Dialga has a very effective defensive set, the offensive set for Dialga is not to be overlooked. With an excellent movepool/coverage and a sky high Special attack stat, alongside a strong defensive typing, Dialga can easily fit as a partner for Latios, dealing heavy damage to both Dragons and Steel types alike. My point with all the weird highlighting and stating of the obvious is that Dialga provides excellent defensive synergy with Latios, and therefore can act as an extremely effective offensive partner, being able to tank attacks that Latios is weak to. The set contains the standard Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse; one is for insane wallbreaking power, while the other one is for a reliable attack that doesn't cripple Dialga. Dragon Pulse is mostly a filler move though, and if you all wish, can be replaced with moves such as Aura Sphere, Stealth Rock, etc. Fire Blast is to deal with Steel types such as Ferrothorn, and Thunder is to deal with Kyogre, Lugia, etc. A Modest nature is run to maximize power, and the EVs are given to increase durability and power output, with a little bit of speed creep to outspeed base 90s that have no investment or have 4 Speed EVs. Lastly, a Choice Specs set could be run, but I think that would limit Dialga's potential, as since we have decided on an offensively-oriented team, few members will be able to repeatedly tank the attacks that Dialga will need to switch out of. Also, as a side note, as stated by Melee Mewtwo, Latios doesn't like Kingdra (a notable Rain abuser), as it can outspeed and KO Latios in Rain. Dialga can act as a one-time check for Kingdra, while not losing momentum like Ferrothorn would.
DIALGA!!!
Dialga @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
Take a look at this:
Dialga:
Weaknesses:
Fighting(2x), Ground(2x)
Neutralities:
Fire, Ice, Dragon
Resistances:
Normal(2x), Water(2x), Electric(2x), Grass(4x), Flying(2x), Psychic(2x), Bug(2x), Rock(2x), Ghost(2x), Dark(2x), Steel(2x)
Immunities
Poison
Latios:
Weaknesses:
Ice(2x), Bug(2x), Ghost(2x), Dragon(2x), Dark(2x)
Neutralities:
Normal, Poison, Flying, Rock, Steel
Resistances:
Fire(2x), Water(2x), Electric(2x), Grass(2x), Fighting(2x), Psychic(2x)
Immunities:
Ground
Weaknesses:
Fighting(2x), Ground(2x)
Neutralities:
Fire, Ice, Dragon
Resistances:
Normal(2x), Water(2x), Electric(2x), Grass(4x), Flying(2x), Psychic(2x), Bug(2x), Rock(2x), Ghost(2x), Dark(2x), Steel(2x)
Immunities
Poison
Latios:
Weaknesses:
Ice(2x), Bug(2x), Ghost(2x), Dragon(2x), Dark(2x)
Neutralities:
Normal, Poison, Flying, Rock, Steel
Resistances:
Fire(2x), Water(2x), Electric(2x), Grass(2x), Fighting(2x), Psychic(2x)
Immunities:
Ground