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Ubers CCAT: Stage 3 - Teammates

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Superpower vs:
  • 252/0 Ferrothorn:
    - 414 Atk vs 299 Def & 354 HP (120 Base Power): 310 - 366 (87.57% - 103.39%) (58.97% to OHKO with SR)
    - 401 Atk vs 299 Def & 354 HP (120 Base Power): 302 - 356 (85.31% - 100.56%) (41.03% to OHKO with SR)
  • 252/0 Super-effective affected Arceus:
    - 414 Atk vs 276 Def & 444 HP (120 Base Power): 336 - 396 (75.68% - 89.19%) (7.69% to OHKO with SR)
    - 401 Atk vs 276 Def & 444 HP (120 Base Power): 326 - 384 (73.42% - 86.49%)
  • 252/0 Dialga:
    - 414 Atk vs 276 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 336 - 396 (83.17% - 98.02%) (66.67% to OHKO with SR)
    - 401 Atk vs 276 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 326 - 384 (80.69% - 95.05%) (46.15% to OHKO with SR)


And I agree with Mild>Rash, there are much more Physical priority attacks than Special.
 
Since Deoxys-A is a wall-breaker, wouldn't it be best, that after we sort out a reasonable defensive core, just load the team with sweepers (that synergise with each other, obviously), since those are what would benefit from Deoxys-A's wallbreaking?
 
And I agree with Mild>Rash, there are much more Physical priority attacks than Special.
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The true question about that is whether we want Dexoys-a to be shoving off rapid spins off a Forretress and whether it wants to be 4HKOed by that or whether we want it to shove off 1 Ice Beam from a Lugia D:. I suppose we could throw Forry's volt switch into account also but Forry pretty much walls Deo-a after the SpA drop so it can enjoy that :D. Unless it has HP Fire which it does not :(.

Since we are creating a defense core I think we will need a Specs Ogre check, at the moment if it switches in on Forry and we don't Volt Switch, predicting that 2-1 members are going down to take that thing out, and thats assuming we have a noob o.0. So how about Lustrous Orb Palkia as a check?

Since we already have a revenge killer we don't need to assign Palkia the role of Revenge Killing and it annoys the opposing team :D, and is one of the few things that can live to tell the tale of a specs spout.
 
Furai said:
Guys, we need more teammates! So far it seems like we only have 1 justified teammate, and that is Support Arceus-Ghost. Forretress is also questionable right now, according to your posts.

I also want your opinon on which set we should pick for Deoxys;
- 20 Attack / 252 Special Attack / 236 Speed, Mild Nature
- 72 Attack / 252 Special Attack / 184 Speed, Naive Nature
Damage comparison: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3948279&postcount=132


I also updated the OP with some pretty pictures :3
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I think it's only fair to say that at this early stage in teambuilding there are very few "best" options. We could build a team with Giratina-O as the spinblocker instead of Ghost Arceus, for example, just as we could build one with Ferrothorn instead of Forretress. Flesh out the team a bit more and then "best" options will start to emerge :)

As for EVs, I like prem's spread, especially since we'll probably have to use a Scarfed Pokemon somewhere, which compensates for the lower speed.
 
Its not like we really have the choice. Here's the set :
489.png

Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 SpA / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Aqua Tail
- Spacial Rend
- Outrage
- Fire Blast

Physically Mixed to break Chansey and CMogre, FB over Thunder because Ferrothorn is already a pain in the ass for the team; the rest is obvious.
 
how is ferrothorn a pain in the ass for the team. deo-a fucking murders it. and support ghostceus can run flamethrower to beat it.

anyway i propose thunder is used if we use kyogre (high possibilty lol), as it will allow deo-a to hurt lugia so much harder (does 72% on average), and is just a good neutral move to use when half your moves cause stat drops.

i also believe we should run the lead lo dialga that ibo runs, as it will get rocks up and keep the bulky offense going (idk the spread ask ibo or huge or something)
 
anyway i propose thunder is used if we use kyogre (high possibilty lol), as it will allow deo-a to hurt lugia so much harder (does 72% on average), and is just a good neutral move to use when half your moves cause stat drops.

i also believe we should run the lead lo dialga that ibo runs, as it will get rocks up and keep the bulky offense going (idk the spread ask ibo or huge or something)
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The problem is if we do run Thunder on Deo-a we lose type coverage. Running it over Shadow ball? Great Giratina is a larger annoyance and now the Physically Defensive version also walls it to its doom. Running it over Psycho Boost means we don't achieve an enromous amount of OHKOes. If we run it over Superpower Ferrothorn just lols. Losing Extremespeed means we can't beat weakened scafers / Rayquaza / Arceus.

I do agree that a Dialga lead would be nice though. How about a spread consisting of 252 SpA, 36 Spe to speed creep and put the rest in HP for bulk?

We OHKO all Giratina formes albeit habantina which is non existent now lol and Murder enemy Groudon :D. 36 Speed is a creep but it also enables us to outspeed Xatu and murder it should it try to bounce back our rocks.

Although I see a clash, Palkia, Deo-a, Ghostceus, Forry, Terrakion... (Only 1 Filler left)

We only have one spot left, which means we can't have both Kyogre and Dialga D:. I personally feel Dialga is a better candidate for that last spot due to the fact it has the prized Stealth Rock and just flat out prevents Stealth Rock from entering the field courtesy of LOed Draco Meteor OHKOing Groudon and Dialga :D.
 
prem said:
how is ferrothorn a pain in the ass for the team. deo-a fucking murders it. and support ghostceus can run flamethrower to beat it.
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Huh, have ever seen Ferrothorn under the rain (which is the most common weather) ? He setup spikes, win the duel against Forre, is slower than him so he can TW on your volt switch, he can take any atk from Arceus support and TW/Leech Seed him (also, we dont have any grass type to block leech seed), I dont know for you, but for me, he's trully a pain in the ass. Anyway, this is always the case with a team which isnt enough oriented on the offense.

If we run Palkia, Deo-a, Ghostceus, Forry, Terrakion, we clearly need an Elec immunity/resistance, Scarfkrom for exemple, we'll need to sacrifice Terrakion to do some damage then kill him with our priority. Dialga is good but he'll die too early, Groudon bring a Water weakness which isnt good since we only have Palkia.
We can change the type of Arceus or run a Bulky Dialga (without SR, forre'll do it), I dont think of an another way to fix this.
 
I'd like to suggest an alternate EV spread of shifting 8 attack EVs into speed, this let's you beat modest scarf ogre which is potentially a problem if it predicts the palkia swiitch in.
 
Poppycock said:
I'd like to suggest an alternate EV spread of shifting 8 attack EVs into speed, this let's you beat modest scarf ogre which is potentially a problem if it predicts the palkia swiitch in.
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Plenty of Pokemon have been posted in here. Deoxys-A also has two EV spreads. Type the exact spread you want and Pokemon, if you'd like.


Also Hugendugen and I have been working on a base for the team, we're halfway there! We'll keep you guys up to date.
 
Ok I'll have to leave soon, so I'll keep this post concise. Frankly, I think CS Terrakion is a bad idea. Why ? What purpose does it serve on this team ? Firstly, We do not need another priority check and Ghostceus does it better anyway with Will-O-Wisp, Recover and that typing. Secondly, we have not reached the stage where we need a Scarf user, that step should be kept for the end IMO. I think we should just focus on getting Deoxys-A one / two ideal team mates on board now.

Lastly, I agree with shrang in that we need a late game sweeper / cleaner to finish off what Deoxys-A started. I think we can all agree that Deoxys-A is not your typical sweeper.
 
I have to agree with barry after starting building the team with Hugen. Terrakion adds an extra Ground weakness, which we had trouble dealing with in the teambuilding. Ghostceus also pretty much handles everything we need.


I also stole Antar's team from the RMT section and made a few changes, and after testing it for a while I've realized that almost everytime that I used Deoxys-A it was a late-game cleaner, so we also need to make sure that will not happen!
 
Furai said:
Plenty of Pokemon have been posted in here. Deoxys-A also has two EV spreads. Type the exact spread you want and Pokemon, if you'd like.


Also Hugendugen and I have been working on a base for the team, we're halfway there! We'll keep you guys up to date.
Click to expand...

Oh, yeah sorry I was being imprecise, what I meant was a spread of

12 Atk / 252 SpA / 244 Spe with a Rash or a Mild nature (it's quite irrelevant, really)
 
barry4ever said:
Lastly, I agree with shrang in that we need a late game sweeper / cleaner to finish off what Deoxys-A started. I think we can all agree that Deoxys-A is not your typical sweeper.
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Assuming we have Forretress, Ghostceus, and Deoxys-A, we could try this (Vratix already suggested it so give him credit not me !_!):

Darkrai @ Life Orb
Timid
252 SpA / 252 Speed / 4 whatever
-Dark Void
-Nasty Plot
-Dark Pulse
-Focus Blast

Deoxys-A lures in special tanks such as Ho-Oh, Kyogre, and Chansey (to take Psycho Boosts most of the time) to stomach its hits, which Darkrai can take advantage of to easily sweep after Deoxys-A has smashed their crap in half. Darkrai is so incredibly easy to set up that it would make our sweeping core very reliable, and it also appreciates entry hazards as well. It also benefits the team defensively - it resists all of Ghost Arceus's weaknesses, most of Deoxys-A's weaknesses (lol), and can set up on pretty much every Ghost-type that would try to spinblock Forretress.

Darkrai is also great at finishing off Stall teams and benefits from the removal of Scarfers just like Deoxys-A.

That leaves us two Pokemon to finish our defensive core / patch holes. Roles we still need to cover include:

-Revenge killer
-Kyogre counter
-Ho-Oh check

...so just keep that in mind.
 
Go10 - If we take this Jira and assuming we already have Deo-a / Fore / GhostCeus, we definitely need something for Ferrothorn, he can setup his EH all the day (fore lose thanks to Leech Seed + Iron Barbs). I'm not convinced by Jira though.
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How effective is spinning in Ubers anyways, where Giratina-O and Ghost Arceus so popular for spin-blocking? I find Wish / Healing Wish Jirachi helpful, because in an event that our team cannot remove hazards, Jirachi can still replenish our sweeper's health with Wish / Healing Wish. Healing Wish heals before entry hazard damage, but it doesn't change the fact that the mon did replenish its health back (albeit not fully), and entered safely into the arena.

I mean, we COULD give Jirachi Fire Punch, so it can fish for that 20% burn on Ferrothorn. However, I think it will be more useful to U-turn / double-switch / Healing Wish to one of our other mons that can threaten Ferrothorn and limit its set-up, such as Palkia w/ Fire Blast. If we construct the team so that rest of the team can beat up Ferrothorn, then it will become more of a liability as it tries to switch in on Jirachi only to offer a free switch-in to a Sweeper.
 
@Pocket: Spinning is as effective in Ubers as it is in every other tier that has ghost types.


Back on topic:
I like the Scarf Zekrom idea tossed out by Hawkstar. Zekrom isn't my favorite sweeper in the world but the scarf set is the best Zekrom set by far and it will certainly revenge against any Ho-oh nicely but I sure wouldn't want to switch it into a Water Spout. As far specific scarfers go it seems to have more coverage (for our team) than Palkia despite Palkia being the most useful Kyogre check in the game so Zekrom sounds like a go.


Additionally, I would also like to put forth: Rock Polish Groudon. I'm not a fan of double dancers, I think relying on two set up turns is foolish and I hate the lack of coverage you get, so I will keep it simple here:

Groudon@Life Orb
Adamant
112 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def / 136 Spe
-Rock Polish
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
-Overheat

Rock Slide if you are afraid of missing Stone Edge but I doubt it is necessary. Also, I chose stone Edge over Dragon Claw because the only thing I can think of off of the top of my head that isn't hit harder by Edge/Quake is Giratina. The psuedo-proposed team of Forretress, Ghostceus, and Deoxys-A, Darkrai, Zekrom can already scare or kill the bejeezus out of a giratina so I didn't think dragon claw was essential.

Overheat is there for Skarmory (mostly) and Forretress. There is nothing more frustrating than getting that setup in but having to switch anyway because Skarm starts roosting off your physical attacks and nobody likes a LO sweeper to catch a Leech Seed.
 
Pocket said:
How effective is spinning in Ubers anyways, where Giratina-O and Ghost Arceus so popular for spin-blocking? I find Wish / Healing Wish Jirachi helpful, because in an event that our team cannot remove hazards, Jirachi can still replenish our sweeper's health with Wish / Healing Wish. Healing Wish heals before entry hazard damage, but it doesn't change the fact that the mon did replenish its health back (albeit not fully), and entered safely into the arena.

I mean, we COULD give Jirachi Fire Punch, so it can fish for that 20% burn on Ferrothorn. However, I think it will be more useful to U-turn / double-switch / Healing Wish to one of our other mons that can threaten Ferrothorn and limit its set-up, such as Palkia w/ Fire Blast. If we construct the team so that rest of the team can beat up Ferrothorn, then it will become more of a liability as it tries to switch in on Jirachi only to offer a free switch-in to a Sweeper.
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I'm not talking about Spinning but not letting Ferrothorn doing wathever he want like LS or spikes. Jirachi deserve a try, but I'm not convinced.

@Fireburn : if we doesnt use ScarfTerra, then we dont have the choice : ScarfKia. Ogre can wipe out the team right now and something like Chansey or another special wall'll just slow down our tempo.
 
Fireburn said:
Darkrai is also great at finishing off Stall teams and benefits from the removal of Scarfers just like Deoxys-A.
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How are we removing Scarfers with Deoxys-A, Darkrai, Ghost Arceus and Forretress though? We have no Thunder Wave and no way to trap them, unless we're using a Wobuffett in one of the remaining two slots or something ...

Also missing right now: Stealth Rock, unless we stress Forretress's movepool with SR and Spikes both, which means it will have to sacrifice Volt Switch , Gyro Ball or Toxic. We also don't have resists to many common moves (Water, Electric, Ground, Fire, etc), as well as a way to control the weather.

Throwing this idea out here; it may not work. Use Ferrothorn and Scarf Kyogre in the remaining two slots. Ferrothorn can bring Thunder Wave and Stealth Rock while resisting Water and Electric, while Kyogre can control weather, revenge kill and remove the Fire weakness. There's still no Ground resist, but the most common Ground type is Groudon, and that can be handled with Ghost Arceus and Kyogre.
 
How are we supposed to take Water Spout ? We need Palkia and another check for EKceus, if we lose GhostCeus (which'll happen obviously), there is no way we'll be able to handle him.
 
Palkia + Groudon then? EDIT: nevermind Ho-oh stomps that.

Also when I played with similar teams I could take on Kyogre pretty OK by applying pressure on it. Darkrai, Deoxys-A and ScarfOgre are faster than all non-scarf Kyogre, which lets them quickly weaken the power of Water Spout if not take Kyogre out entirely. After that Ferrothorn can take Surfs. Worst case scenario is another Scarf Kyogre duking it out in the lead position, but that's still not too bad: both sides use Thunder, then go to Ferrothorn.

EDIT #2: Ugh Ferrothorn + Kyogre getting stomped by Dialga, need rain up and even then Fire Blast does a ton with no reliable Fire resists. Garchomp is a little hard to handle, too.
EDIT #3: yeah the Fire weakness is paralyzing. Two 4x Fire weaks with only rain and Kyogre to take up that weaknesses ... back to the drawing board ...
 
Hugen and I started the team from a scratch earlier because of a large amount of problems, mainly no reliable Kyogre counter and no Ground resist. I had to go in the middle, which left us still in the beginning. More options would be nice.
 
The problem is that there is no Kyogre counter that fits the bulky offense style, unless we want to sacrifice a spot for Gastrodon or something, which would be a disaster. The Ground resist thing is also a problem since there are no Uber Bug-types besides Arceus-Bug and the only Grass-type that fits the offense style is Shaymin-S, who is hardly bulky by Ubers standards. Palkia is pretty much a requirement now IMO, since it is the best thing bulky offense has against Kyogre and can easily scare away Groudon, but I'm pretty sure you guys know all that already.

And once again, I suggest CM RestTalk Kyogre. With Rest, it can take Water Spouts well and Groudon is also scared by the possibility of ScarfOgre. Natural pair with Palkia, fits bulky offense theme, blah blah blah.
 
we could always use grassceus. idk which set but im pretty sure we can make the set to kill ferro and other threats we need to be handled
 
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