Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion - Home Edition

Nayrz

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Ubers Leader

- Discussion should only be focused around SS Ubers and its metagame. No national dex stuff.
- Discussion should only be focused around what is currently (or recently announced will be) available! Theorymon on the upcoming DLC are a no go in here until they arrive.
- Follow the rules, and keep things peaceful.
- Questions go here.
- Other generations discussion goes here.

Pokemon Home released a short time ago, bringing a bunch of new legal Pokemon to Ubers! Here is the list of newly available mons to SS:

Mewtwo
Celebi
Jirachi
Cobalion
Virizion
Terrakion
Reshiram
Zekrom
Kyurem (fuse item exists in SS)
Keldeo
Solgaleo
Lunala
Necrozma (fuse item exists in SS)
Marshadow
Zeraora
Melmetal
(and the regional starters)

Note that Pokemon Home also allows for the transfer of previously unavailable / rarer moves such as Toxic, Roost, and Defog, so the meta just got a drastic shake up! Use this thread as your area for speculation and mon/set discussions. Things are about to get crazy in here.
 
One thing I feel that was really lacking in the previous iteration of SS Ubers was clerics (Heal bell users etc) which made defensive structures susceptible to status and with the release of Home we actually have users outside of Hatterene or Weezing-Galar etc. I have kindly took the time to compile a list of potentially viable Cleric users that are legal as the current home meta based on previous usage and my own judgment. Etc


:clefable: Clefable (Heal Bell) - Gets Softboiled again too
:weezing-galar: Weezing-galar (Aromatherapy)
:vaporeon: Vaporeon (Heal Bell)
:lapras: Lapras - Probably has a filler use on the GMAX forme
:umbreon: Umbreon (Heal Bell)
:togekiss: Togekiss (Heal Bell)
:celebi: Celebi (Heal Bell)
:gothitelle: Gothitelle (Heal Bell)
:hatterene: Hatterene (Heal Bell)


If I missed any or made a mistake please let me know, obviously as it stands this list is still rather small due to lack of Pokemon but its a much better case than pre-home. Vaporeon / Umbreon / Clefable look like the biggest gainers especially for defensive backbones on teams, Togekiss gets Defog back too so maybe it could be taken into consideration for role compression but it feels very niche, Lapras may have a bit of a niche for offensive orientated teams.

Furthermore I think the following core could be something we will see in the Home metagame and will be very interesting to try out


Eternatus @ Black Sludge
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 236 HP / 180 SpA / 92 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Dynamax Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Recover


Lunala @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Roost
- Defog / Psyshock / Moonblast


Eternatus sets are extremely expandable, you could use a defensive Eternatus if you wanted, or Metronome Dragon Pulse, Its really up to the user. Lunala at face value works really with Toxic Spikes support and probably the spotlight of Post Home metagame, with access to Wisp / Hex and Heavy Duty boots, Defensive Lunala looks really hard to break. It doesn't have to worry about pursuit users (!) and has access to a reliable ghost STAB on a defensive set, this pair also look fantastic defensively. Obviously the Lunala evs are not set in stone, I just set it to outspeed Jolly Necrozma-DM for the time being. Will-O-Wisp allows it to punish Pokemon immune to Toxic Spikes and cripple noteable physical attackers such as the aforementioned Necrozma-DM and also Zekrom, Zacian-Crowned; while also increasing potency for Hex. Lunala is probably the best defensive dynamax user on our board as of now from the new releases and one of our top Pokemon in the metagame, would be interesting to see how players explore this Pokemon.
 
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Wait will Mewtwo get access to nasty plot?
That sounds ridiculous combined with speedboosts from max airstream
 
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Ropalme1914

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Mewtwo @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psystrike
- Fire Blast
- Hurricane / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast

This is what I think standard Mewtwo will run. Very scary mon with Dynamax, OHKOes most things at +2 and is faster than the entire meta at +1 alongside being able to get immunity to priority and boost even further its Psystrike. Shadow Ball hits Lunala, which is a very big Pokémon, while Focus Blast hits Tyranitar, who could easily take its hits otherwise.

It also gets Stored Power alongside Cosmic Power, which could lead to some other interesting sets coupled with its access to Recover, but it does get walled by Necrozma-DM, Lunala, and some others.

Reshiram @ Life Orb / Haban Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blue Flare
- Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
- Roost
- Flame Charge / Fly

Another good Pokémon, Reshiram's STABs are unresisted rn, which leaves it two free moveslots. Roost gives it longevity while Flame Charge boosts its Speed, pretty straight forward. Fly can be used to boost your Speed while Dynamaxed, but I like Charge more. Dragon Pulse is a more reliable STAB that doesn't miss, doesn't lower your stats and has higher PP. Haban Berry helps against Ditto. It still has Earth Power, but I don't think it has many targets? Might be useful for something, but I think STABs + Roost and Speed boosting move gets the most out of it. Timid is necessary due to Zacian-C.

Zekrom @ Haban Berry / Magnet / Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Bolt Strike
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Roost / Substitute

Zekrom also is very hard to wall and can easily sweep with just its STABs and Dragon Dance. Jolly once again is needed for Zacian, and Haban will probably be the best item due to the Dragon-types on the tier and to not be as vulnerable to Ditto, but Magnet grants it a pretty good boost to its power, allowing to 2HKO even physically defensive Melmetal. Substitute also makes Ferrothorn setup bait if not running Body Press.

Choice Band also hits super hard instantly, but Zekrom's Speed tier leaves a lot to be desired in that case.

Kyurem-White @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam / Freeze-Dry
- Draco Meteor
- Fusion Flare
- Roost / Fly

Kyurem got Freeze-Dry, which is pretty nice, but Water-types aren't that common on this meta. It's pretty similar to Reshiram tbh, but even though it's faster and has higher Special Attack, it has a worse typing defensively and offensively and none of its STABs are as good as Blue Flare. I know some people are hyped about it, but idk, it didn't attract me that much.

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Fusion Bolt
- Dragon Claw

It got Ice STAB, yay! Unfortunately, I still don't see this being better than Zekrom. Icicle Spear is unreliable and it has little to no defensive utility. Another Pokémon that I don't see the hype that some people give it.

Lunala @ Spell Tag / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast / Roost / Agility / Moonblast
- Calm Mind / Roost / Agility / Moonblast

Lunala @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Moonblast

Lunala @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Roost
- Defog / Psyshock / Moonblast

Now, THIS is more interesting. Cynara already explained the defensive set, so I'll leave it at there, but Lunala is much more versatile than the Pokémon that came before. Heavy-Duty Boots is a blessing that makes its Shadow Shield almost guaranteed to work at least one time. Ghost is barely resisted on the tier and very spammable, while Psyshock hits bulky Pokémon like Eternatus hard. 97 base Speed is better to it than it was before since we no longer have the base 99s, 100s, and Arceus anymore. Focus Blast hits Tyranitar and has perfect accuracy during Dynamax, and while Mooblast could be used for some Dragons and Ttar, it's not that strong. Roost can recover its Shadow Shield that combos very well with the already mentioned HDB. Agility outspeeds the entire meta including scarfers. Choiced sets I also think that have potential due to how spammable Moongeist Beam is, and Dynamax allows you to deal with the few resists it has.

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
- Trick Room
- Sunsteel Strike / Photon Geyser
- Earthquake
- Photon Geyser / Knock Off / Swords Dance

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Morning Sun
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Life Orb
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Knock Off / Photon Geyser

Honestly, you can just run whatever you want on this lol it has much more sets than the ones listed here. Trick Room is bulky and does exactly it did last generation, cleaning very easily late-game. Since there isn't Xerneas on this tier, physically defensive is viable and is one the best Zacian checks on the tier. Dragon Dance boosts both its Attack and its Speed in just one slot, and Jolly at +1 outspeeds everything up to base 140. +1 Knock Off OHKOes Lunala, which is an option that Necrozma didn't have last generation. Its Dynamaxing potential also is incredible, as Sunsteel Strike and Earthquake will boost both of its defenses, and Necrozma itself already is close to impossible to OHKO during Dynamax. The boosts can also make something like SD / Sunsteel Strike / Earthquake / Morning Sun viable. This is what I predict to be the best Pokémon on the meta.

Marshadow @ Choice Scarf / Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Ice Punch / Rock Tomb

This isn't as good as it once was tbh. Its Speed tier took a big hit with the new legendaries, Lunala, Necrozma, and Mewtwo can all set Psychic Terrain with Dynamax and boost their Speed, no Z-Moves means it can't break bulkier Pokémon like Toxapex, among other things. I see this more as revenge killer and utility mon with Choice Scarf now, dealing with those Pokémon that try to set their Speed and sweep late-game. It also helps with Improofing your team in some way, although far from perfect. It can steal Zacian's boots from Intrepid Sword, but +1 Spectral Thief won't OHKO it. A huge drop from gen 7 imo.
 

steelskitty

steel kitty#2196
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One thing I feel that was really lacking in the previous iteration of SS Ubers was clerics (Heal bell users etc) which made defensive structures susceptible to status and with the release of Home we actually have users outside of Hatterene or Weezing-Galar etc. I have kindly took the time to compile a list of potentially viable Cleric users that are legal as the current home meta based on previous usage and my own judgment. Etc


:clefable: Clefable (Heal Bell) - Gets Softboiled again too
:weezing-galar: Weezing-galar (Aromatherapy)
:vaporeon: Vaporeon (Heal Bell)
:lapras: Lapras - Probably has a filler use on the GMAX forme
:umbreon: Umbreon (Heal Bell)
:togekiss: Togekiss (Heal Bell)
:gothitelle: Gothitelle (Heal Bell)
:hatterene: Hatterene (Heal Bell)


If I missed any or made a mistake please let me know, obviously as it stands this list is still rather small due to lack of Pokemon but its a much better case than pre-home. Vaporeon / Umbreon / Clefable look like the biggest gainers especially for defensive backbones on teams, Togekiss gets Defog back too so maybe it could be taken into consideration for role compression but it feels very niche, Lapras may have a bit of a niche for offensive orientated teams.

Furthermore I think the following core could be something we will see in the Home metagame and will be very interesting to try out


Eternatus @ Black Sludge
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 236 HP / 180 SpA / 92 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Dynamax Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Recover


Lunala @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Roost
- Defog / Psyshock / Moonblast


Eternatus sets are extremely expandable, you could use a defensive Eternatus if you wanted, or Metronome Dragon Pulse, Its really up to the user. Lunala at face value works really with Toxic Spikes support and probably the spotlight of Post Home metagame, with access to Wisp / Hex and Heavy Duty boots, Defensive Lunala looks really hard to break. It doesn't have to worry about pursuit users (!) and has access to a reliable ghost STAB on a defensive set, this pair also look fantastic defensively. Obviously the Lunala evs are not set in stone, I just set it to outspeed Jolly Necrozma-DM for the time being. Will-O-Wisp allows it to punish Pokemon immune to Toxic Spikes and cripple noteable physical attackers such as the aforementioned Necrozma-DM and also Zekrom, Zacian-Crowned; while also increasing potency for Hex. Lunala is probably the best defensive dynamax user on our board as of now from the new releases and one of our top Pokemon in the metagame, would be interesting to see how players explore this Pokemon.
I think the lunala + eternatus core is cool and worth exploring, but just based on my first impressions it seems to me that defensive teams as a whole just won't be viable in this iteration of ubers. it kinda reminds me of mega rayquaza oras, except you have like 3 things that are the threat level of mega rayquaza. maybe this is just my rust or a lack of creativity on my part, but I was trying to make a stall team and I like just couldn't. there's too much super strong shit, and I feel like the opportunity cost of not running said strong shit is too high. np mewtwo alone steamrolls just about everything -- yeah, I guess it has 4mss, but fuck, what even defensively checks a set with just psystrike/focus blast/shadow ball? are you gonna dmax a sableye or something? then you have lunala which is also impossible to defensively check and seems to be able to run like 6 sets, marshadow which easily 2hkos corviknight, zekrom whicih has dd or can probably run sub+hone claws to beat ferrothing if needed, plus all the regular scary stuff like darm to contend with. hell, even terrakion could be scary -- the sorts of sets it runs in bw ou would tear up ubers in its current state. the slow and bulky teams which have dominated the tier so far have gotta be on their way out.

the only way I ever see stall working is if it runs at least a scarfer, but it probably needs way more than that. i also am concerned bulky offense, the home of slow things in ubers for generations, will also struggle too much to check all the new threats plus everything else that was already scary. right now i'm thinking if you're not running hyper offense in this tier, you're doing it wrong.
 
Stuff and thoughts:

Still has a good speed tier which it now shares with Mewtwo. Feel like this mon might start running Scarf sets just because Dynamax Cannon is one of the only things that can revenge kill stuff like +1 Dynamaxed Zekrom with no chip damage, something Ditto can't really accomplish. Example:

+1 252 Atk Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 560-660 (164.2 - 193.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 356-420 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Reshiram: 404-476 (118.4 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Reshiram: 306-360 (89.7 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 480-566 (122.7 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-Black: 390-458 (99.7 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

So in any of those situations, Ditto would fail to OHKO the target if they are Dynamaxed, even without factoring in Haban Berry, and it would get OHKO'd in return (unless Ditto dynamaxes too, and then you got speed ties). But Eternatus has very similar rolls whether the target is Dynamaxed or not, so it still stands a good chance of taking these things out. It can run Modest to confirm these kills even easier. Haban Berry throws a wrench in that too, but hey, it's something. The matchup is at least a lot more clear-cut than the Ditto matchup is.

This mon seems largely outclassed by Necrozma-DM. It's much more physically bulky though, even though Prism Armor can often make up for the difference. Double Iron Bash is also a stronger STAB than Sunsteel Strike. If you want to use this mon, I think a physically defensive spread to try and take on Zacian-C as well as possible could be nice. Its Double Iron Bash is able to bypass Substitute to an extent if Zacian has one too. But besides that it has inferior movepool, and arguably typing as well. It's a strong Choice Bander but there seems like quite a few good Steel resists too.

This mon is probably still bad and outclassed, but it does have Flare Blitz to hit Corviknight at least. The main trick it gained is buffed Teleport, letting it gain very slow momentum, which could pair up well with a trapping mon like Gothitelle, luring and trapping Quagsire or something.

Under Sun this looks like it could be kinda dangerous, with Acid Downpour boosting it every turn as it spirals out of control. Earth Power gives it an option against Zekrom, Reshiram, Eternatus. The meta still seems very weak to Ground moves, so Earth Power is a great coverage option to have. Weather Ball lets it cover Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and just generally hits hard.

I don't have anything else unique to say right now.
 
Here are my extremely tentative early thoughts on the meta:


Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
IVs: 0 Spe
Brave Nature
- Trick Room
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Knock Off / Swords Dance


Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Life Orb
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Knock Off / Photon Geyser

Likely the two most common variants of Necrozma-DM and I think they will be some of the most dominating forces of the metagame. Time will tell though. I'd predict the Trick Room version to be more common as it's more ditto-proof and does better vs. opposing offensive teams.


Corviknight @ Shed Shell / Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Defog
- Roost

Will once again be really common in this meta, I think. The reason being that I foresee Trick Room, Dragon Dance, and Swords Dance Necrozma-DM being a huge threat. As far as I can see, the best moves usable against Corviknight from Necrozma-DM is Knock Off, which is obviously limited. I see Iron Defense as being a must now, because Necrozma-DM can boost up his defense and attack. While a dynamax Necrozma with boosted defenses is obviously ridiculous, if you're just able to sit on him with Corviknight he will at least get pressured stalled and likely die eventually from boosted Body Press. Not only all of that, but he retains the same utility with defog and checking Zacian-C and Excadrill.


Reshiram @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blue Flare
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost / Earth Power
- Flame Charge / Earth Power

+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Reshiram: 276-325 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Obviously not a reliable method of dealing with Necrozma-DM at all, but with how offensive the metagame is looking to be, I think doubling the offensive pressure with a secondary check to big threats will be quite useful, kinda like Shuca Dialga for Mega Mence in Gen 6. It would definitely give Reshiram some more utility.
Hell, it may even be useful to look into some Defensive EVs for this thing since it has some good resistances vs. Zacian-C:
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 8 HP / 252 Def Reshiram: 213-252 (62 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Earthquake vs. 8 HP / 252 Def Shuca Berry Reshiram: 218-257 (63.5 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
which still leaves you 244 Special attacks EVs + Modest Nature for some solid power, but maybe I'm thinking way too deep into it though lol


Mewtwo @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: Something
- Stored Power
- Aura Sphere / Shadow Ball / ???
- Cosmic Power
- Recover

This set could potentially be neat, I think. You have Pressure, Cosmic Power, and Recovery just like Eternatus, but you also come packed with Stored Power which is really nice. I was thinking of the Fighting move for Dark types that would be immune to Stored Power, but Necrozma-DM and Lunala are annoying, so potentially maybe losing out to Dark-types would be sufficient if getting the Ghost type hit on those common threats is worth it. I of course expect the Nasty Plot set to be the most common but yeah


Lunala @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Moongeist Beam
- Focus Blast
- Trick Room
- Roost / Psyshock / something

I expect something like this to be the most common Lunala set. Why even bother messing around with any other item besides Heavy-Duty Boots? Guaranteeing that Shadow Shield will activate is a huge thing, and with how offensive the meta is looking, Lunala's ability to come in on a lot of offensive threats and completely turn the momentum around is huge. Ghost and Fighting is perfect neutral coverage already, so I don't think you need to run Psyshock, but the ability to cancel out priority for Marshadow is really neat. Maybe Agility would be better but Trick Room seems really solid in theory.


Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Crunch
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave / Rest / Stone Edge / whatever

A slightly modified version of the already used Tyranitar set seems pretty solid. This looks like it could be a good switch-in for general special attackers like Reshiram and Kyurem-White. With Chople Berry, you don't have to worry about even +1 Focus Blast from Lunala, and it gives you a chance at surviving a Life Orb Mewtwo's Focus Blast. This set also double in utility because you can set-up Stealth Rock and also Sand, since Excadrill looks just as potent as ever and the Sand has the bonus of making Lunala's shield obsolete and messing with Necrozma's Morning Sun. TWave seems useful for crippling Dynamax mons, but who knows how this set will end up developing.


Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Curse / something else?
- Spikes
- Leech Seed

Dragon Dance Zekrom looks like it can be really nasty, so I foresee Ferrothorn gaining some more usefulness as it can wall Zekrom pretty hard. Curse is so that he can't just Dragon Dance in front of you forever, it also helps for the potential Gothitelle. Spikes is still as nasty as ever. This set is also neat because it can under-speed the Trick Roomers of Necrozma-DM and especially Lunala, smacking them with a nice Knock Off. You also just sit on Defensive Necrozma, Tyranitar, and other things.


Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Morning Sun
- Earthquake / Toxic
- Stealth Rock

Seems like a really solid utility defensive set, one of the few mons I see that could take on a set-up Zekrom, and it could probably even at least damage a set-up opposing Necrozma-DM. I'd think you need to run Earthquake more than you would need Toxic, which while unfortunate, lets you deal with Substitute Zekrom and opposing Necrozma-DM better. Toxic could have it's uses though, especially if CP Mewtwo does actually become a thing.


Zekrom @ Haban Berry / Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Bolt Strike
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Roost / Substitute

A really solid sweeper if it gets set-up, I believe. Substitute could be useful for certain defensive mons while Roost would let you run Life Orb if you wanted more immediate offense.

The Kyurems seems pretty meh so I won't comment on them.
anyway people don't be surprised if dynamaxing on these big boys gets banned soon so enjoy it while you can :heart:

edit:
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Quag is still viable?
edit edit: Photon Geyser ignores Unaware so :smogthink:
 
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For those who struggle to deal with Zacian-C (I don't blame you), Necrozma-DM needs significant defense investment to do this, but it's not 2HKOed by any of Zacian's moves and can Swords Dance up in its face to revenge kill with Earthquake. Stealth Rock is an obstacle to anyone trying to do this, however, so more defense is needed if your hazard control is weak.
 
My Great Capture Screenshot 2020-02-12 19-26-29.png

Finally had a chance to play a couple of post-Home Ubers matches and I wanted to talk about a couple of the mons I've used and my favorite sets from them so far.

My Great Capture Screenshot 2020-02-12 19-20-33.png

why does the ball have to clip through the snoot :(
Necrozma-DM is dummy good, probably a top 3 mon. Having a new offensive/defensive check to the Zacians and Eternatus is a welcome change, just like when it entered the scene when Xerneas was one of the best mons in the tier in USUM. Physically Defensive is a new spin on DM and is by far the best way to use defensive variants, letting it better take on the aforementioned Zacians, Zekrom, Zamazenta, Tyranitar, and even take one hit from Adamant Life Orb Excadrill relatively comfortably, only doing a max of around 67% to the following spread:

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock / Toxic / Swords Dance
- Moonlight
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake

44 Attack ensures you kill Excadrill with Earthquake after Life Orb damage, and the rest goes to physdef. In my personal opinion, I think Earthquake is almost required on defensive sets to let it better take on the aforementioned Excadrill, Sub Zekrom, Zacian-C, opposing DM Necro (although the WP matchup is super dicey), and Sub Eternatus just to name a few. I haven't tried Swords Dance in the support slot yet, but I can imagine it'll let defensive DM set up against opposing non-SD WP variants and take them out with Earthquake before they can rely on the WP boosts. However, you'll miss the utility brought by rocks or Toxic.

My favorite set so far, though, is WP OTR:

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Knock Off / Swords Dance

This is personally my favorite offensive set right now. With so many Pokemon in the meta being super fast (Ditto, the Zacians, the Zamazentas, Eternatus, Galarian Darmanitan, Mewtwo, Marshadow, Dragapult, etc), OTR takes advantage of their high speeds and absolutely runs through the majority of the tier. It's bulky enough to live most super effective hits, especially when Dynamax'd, so it can take advantage of the WP boosts.

This mon is also probably the best Dynamax user in the entire game, and will probably push this mon over the edge as the meta develops. Resists both of the Behemoth moves and Dynamax Cannon, has Prism Armor to nerf SE damage, and both Max Steelspike and Max Quake bolster its defenses even more, meaning even post-Max DM Necro will be insanely tough to break. It doesn't even fear Marshadow's Spectral Thief as long as TR is still active, with an unboosted Max Steelspike cleanly OHKOing it:

252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk Mane Max Steelspike (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow: 322-379 (100.3 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO (100.00% after accuracy)

Stupid mon, although it does struggle to get past some of the Steels like Ferrothorn and Corviknight.

My Great Capture Screenshot 2020-02-12 19-22-56.png


Another phenomenal Pokemon who is probably the best user of Heavy-Duty Boots in the entire game. Being able to always preserve Shadow Shield is a godsend for just about every set Lunala could possibly run, whether it's offensive or supportive. I've quite enjoyed using Wisp + Hex + Focus Blast + Roost. Being able to cripple Kekrom, Tyranitar, Necrozma-DM, Excadrill, Galarian Darmanitan, and the Zacians while also living any one hit thanks to SS has proven to be an amazing trait. It could also make for a decent Defog user as it scares out Necrozma-DM, but I think Corviknight does a better job at that role since it doesn't fear Toxic and isn't as crippled by Knock Off as Lunala can be. Great mon, don't really have much else to say as I've only used the aforementioned Hex set so far.

My Great Capture Screenshot 2020-02-12 19-24-10.png


Reshiram has genuinely surprised me with how decent it has been so far. An unresisted dual STAB in Dragon/Fire melts most of the tier, even without a boosting item like Life Orb and especially when Dynamax'd. With a lack of bulky Waters like Kyogre and no Blissey/Chansey to stop it, it's genuinely hard to wall.

I think this is definitely better than Kyurem-White atm because Dragon/Fire is much better defensively in a meta ruled by Zacian and Necrozma-DM, and having that Fire-type STAB is excellent right now. Reshiram can make use of a wide array of items like HDB, Shuca Berry, and Life Orb, but this is honestly my personal favorite right now:

Reshiram @ Haban Berry
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Blue Flare
- Roost
- Flame Charge

Haban Berry makes for a great Dragon lure, letting it take one hit from opposing Reshiram, Dragapult, Eternatus, Zekrom, and most importantly, Ditto, letting you either kill what's in front of you or set up with Flame Charge.

Reshiram also gained Dragon Dance this gen, but I'm not sure if it'll be that great on it compared to the raw power displayed by its Special sets. Special Flame Charge seems like the better way to go with a sweeping set, and Zekrom does DD way better with its higher Attack. A nifty Burn immunity is a nice trait while also having access to Turboblaze to ignore Unaware/Sturdy/etc. Then again, Kekrom has Teravolt as well which does the same thing, but isn't Burn-immune. Lum Berry patches that up anyway.

Can't wait to see how the meta continues to develop.​
 
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Was looking at Dragon Dance Kyurem-W as a special cleaner, but there's a big issue:
Kyurem-any (base 95) 252EV 31IV at +1: 433 Speed
Zacian-C (base 148) 252EV 31IV +Nat: 434 Speed
Yep. You have to run Jolly on Kyurem to beat Jolly Zacian-C at +1 because of 1 speed point. Powercreep in action boys.
 
Turboblaze means it can cut through DM Necro like a knife through butter without Life Orb.
Unless they changed it this gen, Turboblaze doesn't bypass Prism Armor. Same deal with Shadow Shield, as well as Full Metal Body on the extremely rare occasions that it's relevant.
 
Unless they changed it this gen, Turboblaze doesn't bypass Prism Armor. Same deal with Shadow Shield, as well as Full Metal Body on the extremely rare occasions that it's relevant.
Yeah, Prism Armour says explicitly it's not bypassed in the Dex:
This Pokemon receives 3/4 damage from supereffective attacks. Moongeist Beam, Sunsteel Strike, and the Mold Breaker, Teravolt, and Turboblaze Abilities cannot ignore this Ability
Yep. Power creep boys and girls. It's so much fun. Next they'll have a new version of Mold Breaker that ignores ignoring.
 
Yeah, Prism Armour says explicitly it's not bypassed in the Dex:

Yep. Power creep boys and girls. It's so much fun. Next they'll have a new version of Mold Breaker that ignores ignoring.
One can assume that Filter & Solid Rock also got this buff, right?

Edit: nvm, just looked at it myself, Filter & Solid Rock don’t get this bonus.
 
Unless they changed it this gen, Turboblaze doesn't bypass Prism Armor. Same deal with Shadow Shield, as well as Full Metal Body on the extremely rare occasions that it's relevant.
Oh rip. I guess the calc I was using erroneously had turbo blaze ignore prism armor.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
I have been playing on the Ubers ladders since I found out Home was released and here are some mons that I wanna talk about:

:ss/excadrill: :ss/tyranitar:

Tyranitar @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 204 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
- Crunch
- Earthquake

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute

The standard Sand Core seems to have survived the "Home nuke", as I can refer to it. Exca got new meals as breakfast in the Home addition: Zekrom, Reshiram, Kyurems, and Necrozma-DM. All of them die to +2 EQ (provided that you set them up). Most of them easily die to unboosted Dynamaxed moves anyways (or even just EQ, like Zekrom and Reshiram). I prefer LO on Exca over Band because it still works in Dynamax anyways. I have found Lunala is perhaps the most troubling new threat to Exca, as you need boosts to reliably break it, but Tyranitar can threaten it, provided that Lunala doesn't run Focus Blast and Tyranitar isn't weakened

Here are some calculations showing Excadrill's power without SD boosts. If you manage to set one, then you can potentially overpower even stuff like Corviknight. Anyways, onto the calculations:

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 413-486 (112.5 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I just grabbed the Hone Claws set from the calculator in order to save time, most Zekroms likely don't run bulk at all)
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Reshiram: 484-569 (131.8 - 155%) -- guaranteed OHKO (same deal, just grabbed some set from the calc to save time)
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Max Rockfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 416-491 (106.3 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (unboosted Rock Slide is guaranteed 2HKO, provided it hits both times. Kyurem-White is also OHKOed by Max Rockfall but 2HKOed by Rock Slide)

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 265-312 (63.8 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (you kind of need SR to break Shadow Shield)
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Max Quake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 343-406 (82.6 - 97.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (so as a whole, Lunala is an annoyance for Exca, so you might wanna weaken it first or just crush it with Tyranitar). Take into account the following calculations:

252 SpA Lunala Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 272-324 (67.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
52 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 254-302 (61.2 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage (this is with Shadow Shield intact, break it with SR and take a guess what happens next)


Here are some calculations versus Necrozma-DM, which take into account offensive and defensive variants:

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 294-347 (87.7 - 103.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 294-347 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Max Quake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 380-450 (103.2 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 283-335 (71.1 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


As you can see, full defensive sets can avoid an OHKO even from a Max Quake. However, full defensive sets like the last one can't OHKO Dynamaxed Excadrill from full, so Excadrill can 2HKO those sets reliably. Furthermore, if you have set up a SD previously, no Necrozma set can ever survive attacks from it, especially Dynamaxed ones.

4 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 324-382 (89.7 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Dynamax and it's a guaranteed 2HKO.


Exca can also deal with Solgaleo (which I have yet to see on the ladder) and Marshadow, though the latter can prove dangerous, as it can potentially revenge kill Exca with Shadow Sneak or steal its SD boosts, provided that you go against a Sash set where Sash is intact (aka not broken by SR). However, one major problem is Ditto, which can copy its boosts and destroy your own team. If you are behind Sub, it shouldn't be able to copy you, but be careful regardless if there's a Ditto on the opposing team.

:ss/lunala:

Lunala @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Moongeist Beam
- Psyshock


Lunala is a pretty cool setup sweeper, mainly due to Shadow Shield, Calm Mind (which makes it bulky on the special side) and Roost, allowing it to last on the field for a long time. I have decided not to run Focus Blast, as the only notable target it hits is Tyranitar, and even then, it is unreliable and you're better off just switching to something that can check Tyranitar anyways. Psyshock is chosen as Psychic STAB as many mons like to snowball SpD boosts through Max Quake, so Psyshock can evade this strategy (this proves more valuable in the end of the game, where clutching is important). It is also one of the better checks to Necrozma Dusk-Mane, provided it doesn't run Knock Off, which it doesn't seem to run much. It is also a very solid mon to use against Eternatus. Here are some calcs:

OFFENSIVE
+1 252 SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 355-418 (96.4 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Lunala Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eternatus: 422-500 (100.2 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 480-566 (115.6 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

DEFENSIVE

252 SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 320-380 (77.1 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 109-129 (26.2 - 31%) -- 11.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lunala: 218-257 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon (100 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Lunala: 146-173 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 114-134 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- 62.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lunala: 228-268 (54.9 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Lunala is somewhat reliant on the +1 in SpA in order to achieve OHKOs. Furthermore, Zacian-C can easily run over it if Shadow Shield is broken, as seen in this calculation:

+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lunala: 361-426 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

furthermore, Zacian-C survives from full a +1 Moongeist Beam:

+1 252 SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 226-267 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Regardless, Lunala does fairly well in handling special attackers in one slot, provided they do not run some Ghost or Dark coverage, though you can pair it with Tyranitar (Leftovers negates sand so Shadow Shield will be intact anyways) to handle those better.

:ss/necrozma-dusk-mane:
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Sunsteel Strike
- Photon Geyser / Knock Off
- Earthquake


I believe this set was a thing in Gen 7, but it works quite well here. It is similar to a TR set that was posted earlier, but this one is more consistent, although sacrificing Imposter proofing. Anyways, the goal of this set is to lure something to hit it super effectively, like Eternatus with Flamethrower, Kyurem-White with Fusion Flare, or Marshadow with a Ghost move, and set up Rock Polish on the turn they attack so you have +2 Attack and Speed in the same turn. This also frees a move slot, so you can run dual STABs or Sunsteel Strike + Knock Off (which seems to be the best option to hit both Lunala and Corviknight) + Earthquake. I have also considered running Heat Wave over Geyser / Knock Off to hit Corviknight, but outside of that and hitting Ferro, I don't think it has much use. The main advantage of Photon Geyser is that it hits Eternatus harder without boosts. Here are some calcs:

OFFENSIVE
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 576-678 (136.8 - 161%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 432-510 (102.6 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 486-574 (149.5 - 176.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 337-397 (91.5 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 498-586 (155.1 - 182.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Mewtwo: 432-508 (122.3 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (some Mewtwo set I grabbed from calc)

here are some Heat Wave calcs, keep in mind I have not used Heat Wave myself:

+2 0- SpA Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 310-366 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0- SpA Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 360-424 (102.2 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (some set I grabbed from calcs)

DEFENSIVE
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 193-228 (52.4 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 175-207 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Band doesn't OHKO either but leaves it at red HP, which makes it suspecible to revenge killing)
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 175-207 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem-White Fusion Flare vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 279-328 (75.8 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


The problem with this set is that, considering how a lot of the attacks are 2HKOes, it is essentially a "one-time try" set only, as failed attempts to trigger Weakness Policy and set up Rock Polish will reduce its potential significally. It is also very suspecible to Ditto and, if not running Knock Off, can be KOed by Lunala. Regardless, use it correctly, and you may be able to destroy the opposing team.

I have more things that I could post about but for now I want to stick to these mons.

(note: I have done the calculations with the assumption that the calculator is working fine. If it isn't, please let me know so I can take them down).
 

Lacus Ichinose

Blueming
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past Smogon Snake Draft Champion
Dynamax seems a bit too broken for the meta to handle. Especially if you use it along with the heavy hitters such as Dusk-Mane, Zekrom etc. It kinda reminds me of the meta where Mega-Ray dropped and overpowered every "check" just by clicking one or two moves. Basically the same shit. Common ways to handle Dynamax mons is revenge killing with Ditto or niche stuff like scarf Marshadow which isn't even guaranteed most of the time. Doesn't seem too healthy for the meta if you ask me. Maybe its too early to judge because the new mons just dropped but it surely ain't enjoyable to play and I dont think the HO meta will change any time soon which is naturally understandable. First step into the right direction would be to do something about dynamax. Maybe restricting it to non Ubers mons or just nuking it would be interesting to test.
 
Dynamax seems a bit too broken for the meta to handle. Especially if you use it along with the heavy hitters such as Dusk-Mane, Zekrom etc. It kinda reminds me of the meta where Mega-Ray dropped and overpowered every "check" just by clicking one or two moves. Basically the same shit. Common ways to handle Dynamax mons is revenge killing with Ditto or niche stuff like scarf Marshadow which isn't even guaranteed most of the time. Doesn't seem too healthy for the meta if you ask me. Maybe its too early to judge because the new mons just dropped but it surely ain't enjoyable to play and I dont think the HO meta will change any time soon which is naturally understandable. First step into the right direction would be to do something about dynamax. Maybe restricting it to non Ubers mons or just nuking it would be interesting to test.
Message from Nat Dex AG, where we have Dynamaxed Xerneas with HP Fire, Yveltal Max Airstream spam, and similar cancer:
Necrozma Dusk-Mane is your new god. Since most breakers are only capable of overwhelming it while Dynamaxed, the usual strategy is to Dynamax Nec-DM on the same turn as your opponent, Max Guard, Max Steelspike/Quake, Max Guard/(QuakeSpike if you're safe). This stalls out the Dynamax, whereupon Nec-DM can usually handle the breaker. Weakness Policy allows it to boost its power while taking a SE hit on turn 2 on offensive sets, or Leftovers makes it more consistent overall for defensive sets.
As for Nec-DM itself, while most of its checks are missing from Ubers, there are a few mons that can check it:
While standard Corviknight can be overcome with enough boosts, I want to look at Iron Defense Corviknight, as also pointed out by Manaphy
+6 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Stone Edge vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 175-206 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yep. Barring crits, Nec-DM is flat-out halted by a Corviknight with +2 Def. Thanks to both Stone Edge and Sunsteel Strike having low PP, Pressure stalling is a very real threat for Nec-DM. Corv even shrugs off Dynamax unless Corv comes in on a +1 or higher Rockfall/a +2 Steelspike:
+1 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Rockfall (140{?} BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 183-216 (45.7 - 54%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 183-216 (45.7 - 54%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Which it can avoid so long as it comes in on the Dragon Dance/Swords Dance.
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Quake (140 BP?) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 150-177 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Wow, Quagsire is checking everything in this meta. Walls it fine while Nec-DM is Dynamaxed, requires it to boost a ton to beat it with Sunsteel Strike and Photon Geyser is historically not a great move on Nec-DM. Defensive versions of Nec-DM that pack Toxic can cripple Quagsire though, so be sure it's the set you think it is, and probably scout it.
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike (140 BP?) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 103-121 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Burns it with Will-O-Wisp and and laughs. Rotom-H does likewise. Be careful of Rock coverage sets though, and Toxic as above. Also can be prone to Shadow Tag.
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Rockfall (140 BP?) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 276-325 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Quake (140 BP?) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dauntless Shield Zamazenta-Crowned: 214-254 (55.1 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 133-157 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Yeah, lol, no, still garbage XD.
+1 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike (140 BP?) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dauntless Shield Zamazenta: 256-303 (78.7 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Ok wait what.
252+ Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 175-207 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Never mind. Garbage.
So I think offensive Nec-DM can be kept in check, while defensive variants check various Dynamax abusers and compete with the offensive sets for a teamspot. Also keep in mind that Kyurem cannot escape the wrath of Zacian-C by Dynamaxing and needs a +Spe nature to not be outrun by it at +1. And Zekrom is vulnerable to Dugtrio trapping after a small amount of chip:
252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 254-302 (69.2 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So it needs Dmax available to escape Dugtrio, and if it is burned by another opposing mon that does some chip damage in the process, Zekrom gets nailed by Choice Scarf Duggy at +1. Still pretty potent though.
Anyway, hope I haven't just repeated what everyone else has said, and let me know if I made any mistakes.
 

Lacus Ichinose

Blueming
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past Smogon Snake Draft Champion
Message from Nat Dex AG, where we have Dynamaxed Xerneas with HP Fire, Yveltal Max Airstream spam, and similar cancer:
Necrozma Dusk-Mane is your new god. Since most breakers are only capable of overwhelming it while Dynamaxed, the usual strategy is to Dynamax Nec-DM on the same turn as your opponent, Max Guard, Max Steelspike/Quake, Max Guard/(QuakeSpike if you're safe). This stalls out the Dynamax, whereupon Nec-DM can usually handle the breaker. Weakness Policy allows it to boost its power while taking a SE hit on turn 2 on offensive sets, or Leftovers makes it more consistent overall for defensive sets.
As for Nec-DM itself, while most of its checks are missing from Ubers, there are a few mons that can check it:
While standard Corviknight can be overcome with enough boosts, I want to look at Iron Defense Corviknight, as also pointed out by Manaphy
+6 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Stone Edge vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 175-206 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yep. Barring crits, Nec-DM is flat-out halted by a Corviknight with +2 Def. Thanks to both Stone Edge and Sunsteel Strike having low PP, Pressure stalling is a very real threat for Nec-DM. Corv even shrugs off Dynamax unless Corv comes in on a +1 or higher Rockfall/a +2 Steelspike:
+1 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Rockfall (140{?} BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 183-216 (45.7 - 54%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 183-216 (45.7 - 54%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Which it can avoid so long as it comes in on the Dragon Dance/Swords Dance.
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Quake (140 BP?) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 150-177 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Wow, Quagsire is checking everything in this meta. Walls it fine while Nec-DM is Dynamaxed, requires it to boost a ton to beat it with Sunsteel Strike and Photon Geyser is historically not a great move on Nec-DM. Defensive versions of Nec-DM that pack Toxic can cripple Quagsire though, so be sure it's the set you think it is, and probably scout it.
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike (140 BP?) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 103-121 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Burns it with Will-O-Wisp and and laughs. Rotom-H does likewise. Be careful of Rock coverage sets though, and Toxic as above. Also can be prone to Shadow Tag.
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Rockfall (140 BP?) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 276-325 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Quake (140 BP?) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dauntless Shield Zamazenta-Crowned: 214-254 (55.1 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 133-157 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Yeah, lol, no, still garbage XD.
+1 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike (140 BP?) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dauntless Shield Zamazenta: 256-303 (78.7 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Ok wait what.
252+ Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 175-207 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Never mind. Garbage.
So I think offensive Nec-DM can be kept in check, while defensive variants check various Dynamax abusers and compete with the offensive sets for a teamspot. Also keep in mind that Kyurem cannot escape the wrath of Zacian-C by Dynamaxing and needs a +Spe nature to not be outrun by it at +1. And Zekrom is vulnerable to Dugtrio trapping after a small amount of chip:
252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 254-302 (69.2 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So it needs Dmax available to escape Dugtrio, and if it is burned by another opposing mon that does some chip damage in the process, Zekrom gets nailed by Choice Scarf Duggy at +1. Still pretty potent though.
Anyway, hope I haven't just repeated what everyone else has said, and let me know if I made any mistakes.
That doesn't make any sense at all for me. You are pretty much saying its mandatory to use Dusk-Mane in every team and to top it off you are even choosing the moves we have to potentially use, which doesn't sit right with me because there are too many sets I prefer. My opponent also already has a free turn by the time I switched-in making me really think about if I can actually win this 1v1. Besides the fact that you mentioned that I have to dynamax in order to counter my opponents dynamax pretty much confirms that this game function is hot garbage. I still stand by my opinion that they should restrict or remove dynamax completely.

Aside from Corviknight I don't think the other two are worth using. We are in a meta where no guaranteed checks exist. I would rather try to overpower my opponent than trying to attempt to tank the attacks with mons that do nothing and get taken out by most coverage/strong moves from other mons. Shoutouts to dynamax btw.

Dugtrio is trash. It was certainly viable in pre-home SS Ubers but now I don't see the point in using it. All meta mons are way too fat for it too handle and the fact that you already mentioned that some mons needs chip in order to get revenge killed doesn't seem that worth for me to use. And that is only without considering dynamax. Just compare it to ORAS. Would you ever run Dugtrio to revengekill P-Don? No, because that thing is way too bulky! Same scenario with all other mons in SS. Dugrio seems more like a running gag now.
 
Dugtrio is trash. It was certainly viable in pre-home SS Ubers but now I don't see the point in using it. All meta mons are way too fat for it too handle and the fact that you already mentioned that some mons needs chip in order to get revenge killed doesn't seem that worth for me to use. And that is only without considering dynamax. Just compare it to ORAS. Would you ever run Dugtrio to revengekill P-Don? No, because that thing is way too bulky! Same scenario with all other mons in SS. Dugrio seems more like a running gag now.
Not entire true. Dug's set in USUM was Groundium Z, and Tectonic Rage was able to OHKO Offensive P-Don or at the very least pick off a chipped bulkier variant. However, Z Moves are no longer a part of the metagame, and you're not going to want to Dynamax your Dugtrio when there are way better abusers of that mechanic. Dynamax doesn't even save Duggy from Zacian-C's Play Rough let alone Behemoth Blade.
 
You are pretty much saying its mandatory to use Dusk-Mane in every team
This is Ubers. This is a problem because?
you are even choosing the moves we have to potentially use, which doesn't sit right with me because there are too many sets I prefer.
Well, Nec-DM has an entire gen of experience behind it which tells us that Photon Geyser hits nothing it couldn't already. I have no idea what you're trying to say here, but it seems you're not happy with me using its standard sets for calcs. Please explain what you're trying to say here.
My opponent also already has a free turn by the time I switched-in making me really think about if I can actually win this 1v1.
If you look at the calcs, you can see I accounted for this by giving every mon a free setup turn on the switch at minimum. Yes, you either win the 1v1 or stall them out.
Besides the fact that you mentioned that I have to dynamax in order to counter my opponents dynamax pretty much confirms that this game function is hot garbage
Yeah, that was how Dynamax was designed. Shitty? To be fair, probably. But it works dealing with far scarier sweepers than are in Ubers ATM. In general, overcentalisation is not a good argument in the Ubers environment.
Aside from Corviknight I don't think the other two are worth using. We are in a meta where no guaranteed checks exist. I would rather try to overpower my opponent than trying to attempt to tank the attacks with mons that do nothing and get taken out by most coverage/strong moves from other mons. Shoutouts to dynamax btw.
Uhh, Quagsire was already a very thoroughly used mon in pre-Home Ubers because it checked Zacian-C. Does that niche suddenly disappear? The fact it also checks physical setup sweepers of all kinds (bar Zekrom using a dragon move that could let Zacian in for free) is nice too. Not to mention not a lot in Ubers likes being burned by Rotom ATM (Eternatus still hates the chip), and it's a decent as hell pivot.
Dugtrio is trash. It was certainly viable in pre-home SS Ubers but now I don't see the point in using it. All meta mons are way too fat for it too handle and the fact that you already mentioned that some mons needs chip in order to get revenge killed doesn't seem that worth for me to use. And that is only without considering dynamax. Just compare it to ORAS. Would you ever run Dugtrio to revengekill P-Don? No, because that thing is way too bulky! Same scenario with all other mons in SS. Dugrio seems more like a running gag now.
If you actually look at the above calc, you'll see Zekrom has bulk investment and barely avoids the OHKO. I'll make it clearer: With LITERALLY ANY chip (Rocks twice is plenty) a fairly bulky Zekrom gets nailed by Duggy.
This seems like the start of the meta all over again, where everyone was saying how unmanageable Zacian-C would be and how HO heavy the ladder was, and if you look now it's A+ in the VR and balance structures that can handle it have evolved. Take 5 minutes, let the meta adapt, and I predict Nec-DM will end up running defensive sets due to its utility being too important, like how Pdon mostly run (at least partial) support sets. If in a month's time Dmaxed Zekrom is too much for the game, then I'm sure the council will do something. Until then, Ubers will be Ubers, and Nec-DM will be 60% or so usage, much like Pdon last gen (which had 69% usage at the end of last gen).
 

Lacus Ichinose

Blueming
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past Smogon Snake Draft Champion
This is Ubers. This is a problem because?

Well, Nec-DM has an entire gen of experience behind it which tells us that Photon Geyser hits nothing it couldn't already. I have no idea what you're trying to say here, but it seems you're not happy with me using its standard sets for calcs. Please explain what you're trying to say here.

If you look at the calcs, you can see I accounted for this by giving every mon a free setup turn on the switch at minimum. Yes, you either win the 1v1 or stall them out.

Yeah, that was how Dynamax was designed. Shitty? To be fair, probably. But it works dealing with far scarier sweepers than are in Ubers ATM. In general, overcentalisation is not a good argument in the Ubers environment.

Uhh, Quagsire was already a very thoroughly used mon in pre-Home Ubers because it checked Zacian-C. Does that niche suddenly disappear? The fact it also checks physical setup sweepers of all kinds (bar Zekrom using a dragon move that could let Zacian in for free) is nice too. Not to mention not a lot in Ubers likes being burned by Rotom ATM (Eternatus still hates the chip), and it's a decent as hell pivot.

If you actually look at the above calc, you'll see Zekrom has bulk investment and barely avoids the OHKO. I'll make it clearer: With LITERALLY ANY chip (Rocks twice is plenty) a fairly bulky Zekrom gets nailed by Duggy.
This seems like the start of the meta all over again, where everyone was saying how unmanageable Zacian-C would be and how HO heavy the ladder was, and if you look now it's A+ in the VR and balance structures that can handle it have evolved. Take 5 minutes, let the meta adapt, and I predict Nec-DM will end up running defensive sets due to its utility being too important, like how Pdon mostly run (at least partial) support sets. If in a month's time Dmaxed Zekrom is too much for the game, then I'm sure the council will do something. Until then, Ubers will be Ubers, and Nec-DM will be 60% or so usage, much like Pdon last gen (which had 69% usage at the end of last gen).
It actually pains me how shallow minded you play Pokémon. Sure you can run these niche mons if that somehow satisfies you but make you end up losing in the long run because your team loses against every other mon while your niches do absolutely nothing and just being sac fodders. Best scenario would be if your opponent doesn't even use the mons you wanna check. Big oopsie? Main reason why I said that Corviknight seems like the only useful mon because it actually does something (momentum with U-Turn, Defog etc.) aside from checking certain mons. Sure Rotom can do it too but its way, way worse. I also don't get why you only bring up Dusk-Mane and Zekrom. We are not playing pre-home SS Ubers and there are way more offensive mons that are able to abuse dynamax. Why are you even defending a mechanic which you consider shitty yourself? You are really contradicting yourself here.

Also Dugtrio is shit! Just get it already. You can trap Zekrom, Zacian-C and maybe Eternatus but thats only if they use them! Every other mon just spits at Dugtrio. If you are expecting your opponent to use certain mons in every game thats pretty much just gambling and I don't see a bright future ahead for you. You could maybe pull that off in one or two tournament games but an overall solid team? Never!

I was only here to talk about dynamax being broken. I don't even know how we ended up here so no further comments from me because I literally can't be arsed to talk about the other unnecesary bs.
 
Solutions people have been thinking about so far is just to ban dynamax on mons with a BST greater than 670, and then possibly having seperate suspects for other mons that may be troublesome. But who knows, maybe dynmamax itself will be banned, we’ll have to see.
 

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