Update to the BL/UU Tiers 13/05/08

Forsety

Its been a good few months since the last move around was submitted from the discussion in the BL/UU thread over at Stark Mountain. We are aware of the recent 'new UU' proposals so this will probably be the last update needed to the 'current' tiers.

As it stands all of these recommendations are the result of lots of feedback, suggestions and testing. If someone is able to revise the tiers on the main site it'd be appreciated.


Move down to UU

-Marowak-
Many are of opinion Marowak despite its Thick Club, would actually not upset the UU metagame. For the most part people would fear a Pinsir or Rain sweep far more than a Marowak sweep.

-Steelix-
Steelix has received a very strong, if not the strongest recommendation all round for joining UU. There is a heavy physical sweeper bias in UU at the moment along with a lack of phazers. Steelix's great defenses and typing is needed to tame alot of threats without being too strong.

-Leafeon-
Theres been quite a strong movement for Leafeon's inclusion into UU mainly due to its bad coverage, phazing, threat to water and its Baton Passing would be welcome to the tier.

-Shedinja-
Again its believed just about any UU team can deal with this guy yet he brings great benefits. The biggest of which is to deal with rain teams and Clefable.

-Drapion-
Drapion's move down to UU has been discussed for possibly the longest time of everything here. Many feel underwhelmed by its performance and low attack base power despite Swords Dance. It is also believed it may fill a important defensive vacuum much like Poliwrath does and bring a 3rd possible new phazer and a solid counter to Absol.

-Jynx-
Priority attacks rape this thing and Glaceon and Ninetales stable yet non-overwhelming prescence within UU have shown there may be room for Jynx afterall.


Ban to BL

-Scyther-
STAB Technician'd Aerial Ace off 110 attack and 105 speed is just far too much for most of UU to handle. The wide coverage it offers also stops many things using resistances to slow it down either. It doesn't help that it keeps U-Turning/Baton Passing out of its one or two counters.

-Pinsir-
Practically unified opinion now that it is out of here. It just about cripples everything in UU and many don't like the feeling of 'Heracross-lite' it gives off.


=======

Also of lesser relevance but also related is the Pokemon who have fallen practically into disuse now, essentially the NU. All of these have declined in usuage or just haven't seen any use for the good part of the last few months. Most of these have been seen regularly under the top 200. Hell, I'm not exaggerating when I say we see Clamperl sees more usuage than these guys.

Carnivine, Huntail, Corsola, Skuntank, Sunflora, Illumise, Delibird, Ditto, Girafarig, Spinda, Solrock, Pachirisu, Phione, Ariados, Stantler, Pidgeot, Plusle, Swalot, Mawile, Masquerain, Granbull, Minun, Volbeat, Bellossom, Delcatty, Glalie, Unown, Vigoroth, Crawdaunt, Tropius, Beautifly, Fearow, Arbok, Victreebel, Chimecho, Kricketune, Cherrim, Chatot, Farfetch'd, Mothim, Exploud, Wigglytuff, Wailord, Castform, Magcargo, Vespiquen, Wormadam, Whiscash, Luvdisc, Lunatone, Wormadam-S, Wormadam-G, Lumineon, Seviper, Dustox, Ledian, Seaking, Furret
Click to expand...
 
While I'm somewhat surprised at Scyther, Pinsir seems pretty obvious. Actually, Scyther seems pretty obvious too if you consider that its base-stat total is equivalent to Scizor.

With that... I haven't participated in the discussion in months, so the only ones I'm actually comfortable to do immediately are Pinsir, Steelix, and Drapion. When I have time to review the UU thread, I'll see about moving the others down. (I'm pretty sure there are other Badgeholders than me who are more up-to-date on the UU Metagame)

Sorry for being a bit conservative, thats just how I am. >_>

EDIT: Hmm... okay, changed Pinsir, Steelix and Drapion. Whenever SCMS is updated again these pokemon will be in their respective tiers.
 
Don't know if it makes that much difference but I'm still contributing to that particular discussion, as have a number of good UU battlers, and there has been no significant objections to Forsety's proposals.

Bologo is also still contributing too, and has voiced no major objections to the proposal, although I wouldn't wish to make claims on his behalf, so best wait for confirmation.
 
As it stands all of these recommendations are the result of lots of feedback, suggestions and testing.
Click to expand...
-Jynx-
Priority attacks rape this thing and Glaceon and Ninetales stable yet non-overwhelming prescence within UU have shown there may be room for Jynx afterall.
Click to expand...

I never said Jynx should automatically be thrown into UU, I just said it deserves fair testing. If your opinion really has swayed that much then fine, but surely you have to admit that changing its tier status to UU 'officially' is being a little hasty when you consider how little it has been tested thus far. Everything else looks fine to me.
 
I assumed that was what you said so abit of misunderstanding there. I was against it but my opinion has gone to pretty much lukewarm on it. Focus Sash seems to be perfect on Jynx but I've seen Shedinja, Drapion, Absol do a number on it regardless.

Either way I can edit out Jynx if thats what you're asking.
 
I'm fine with the stuff here, but I'm still heavily against Shedinja being brought into UU.

Ok, I'm aware that all you need to beat him is Stealth Rock or Spikes, but keep in mind that he's a much bigger threat in UU than in any other tier, because there's no automatic weather at all. Most teams carry a spinner anyway, so Stealth Rock/Spikes aren't a big deal when you have things like Claydol/Blastoise etc.

I've tried this guy out in UU, and he seriously tears up stuff very quickly. It's very hard for the opponent to actually set up at all against Shedinja, because he can just keep Swords Dancing to soup up his STAB Shadow Sneak like a little maniac.

If you stick a Focus Sash on Shedinja, all he has to do is come in on something that can't hurt him, which is pretty easy, and then he can Swords Dance as they switch, and then Swords Dance again as he sucks up a hit with Focus Sash. Now he's tearing up stuff with +4 STAB Shadow Sneaks, and he can then go out with a bang by crippling a physical attacker with Will-O-Wisp.

I don't mind if you guys test Shedinja in UU, but just don't be careless with it.

Everything else is good though, though I still would like to see Regigigas tested in UU, people seem to not like that idea.
 
If Sash Shedinja becomes standard then you could still Toxic it. If Steelix and Drapion get moved down, it gets nerfed by a lot. Then again, this is theorymon, but I'd say it's not too good to be ruled out for a test at all.
 
Ok, sorry but I have one more little objection to make that I didn't really notice much before.

I haven't actually tested it in UU, but I really want to know what you guys think of Relicanth in UU. Does it deserve to be banned to BL? From what it seems so far, there's nothing besides Quagsire and Poliwrath that can actually wall the thing in UU, this is according to the analysis at least. Seriously, nothing besides those two can really switch into Relicanth because it has that STAB Head Smash which destroys even physical walls.

Now, let's look at those two potential counters in UU:

Quagsire, who was teetering over UU and NU from what I saw in the last thread's list can still easily be 3HKOed by a Choice Banded Head Smash, which is resisted nonetheless, unless Quagsire invests extremely heavily in HP/Defense EVs. This means that it'll most likely lose since Relicanth usually invests lots of HP since it doesn't need much speed unless it's pulling a Rock Polish set. Earthquake is a 3HKO, and since Relicanth is faster, plus the factor of Quagsire being the one that has to switch in, Relicanth wins.

Then let's look at Poliwrath. It basically suffers the same fate as Quagsire because unless it runs one of those "Even More Defensive Tadpole" sets, it's going to lose since that set's a 252 HP/252 Def +Def Nature, it only has 4 Atk EVs, which means that Brick Break, Poliwrath's only reliable Fighting STAB scores a 4HKO on a 252 HP Relicanth a majority of the time, which means that Poliwrath loses since it has to switch in Head Smash, and keep taking higher damage without dishing it out in big enough amounts.

Relicanth isn't short on coverage either, but the only gripe I have with him is Head Smash's low PP, but hey, that didn't stop Shaymin with his Seed Flaring.

Like I said, I personally haven't tested it in UU itself, so I'd like to get other people's opinions who have tested it to see if it really belongs in UU.
 
Bologo said:
Ok, sorry but I have one more little objection to make that I didn't really notice much before.

I haven't actually tested it in UU, but I really want to know what you guys think of Relicanth in UU. Does it deserve to be banned to BL? From what it seems so far, there's nothing besides Quagsire and Poliwrath that can actually wall the thing in UU, this is according to the analysis at least. Seriously, nothing besides those two can really switch into Relicanth because it has that STAB Head Smash which destroys even physical walls.

Now, let's look at those two potential counters in UU:

Quagsire, who was teetering over UU and NU from what I saw in the last thread's list can still easily be 3HKOed by a Choice Banded Head Smash, which is resisted nonetheless, unless Quagsire invests extremely heavily in HP/Defense EVs. This means that it'll most likely lose since Relicanth usually invests lots of HP since it doesn't need much speed unless it's pulling a Rock Polish set. Earthquake is a 3HKO, and since Relicanth is faster, plus the factor of Quagsire being the one that has to switch in, Relicanth wins.

Then let's look at Poliwrath. It basically suffers the same fate as Quagsire because unless it runs one of those "Even More Defensive Tadpole" sets, it's going to lose since that set's a 252 HP/252 Def +Def Nature, it only has 4 Atk EVs, which means that Brick Break, Poliwrath's only reliable Fighting STAB scores a 4HKO on a 252 HP Relicanth a majority of the time, which means that Poliwrath loses since it has to switch in Head Smash, and keep taking higher damage without dishing it out in big enough amounts.

Relicanth isn't short on coverage either, but the only gripe I have with him is Head Smash's low PP, but hey, that didn't stop Shaymin with his Seed Flaring.

Like I said, I personally haven't tested it in UU itself, so I'd like to get other people's opinions who have tested it to see if it really belongs in UU.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with you there, but Relicanth suffers from Clamperl syndrome: powerful, but slower than molasses. It's typing doesn't help either, anything faster than it with a super-effective attack will bring it down eventually. I've never had a problem taking care of it with Quagsire anyway.
 
I'm okay with all proposed. We probably need to have a different procedure set out for community discussion of the BL tier.
 
we should consider locking the old one and opening a new official uu/bl tier discussion. it's hard to join the discussion when it's several hundred posts long
 
Gormenghast said:
we should consider locking the old one and opening a new official uu/bl tier discussion. it's hard to join the discussion when it's several hundred posts long
Click to expand...
I was thinking this too. That and there are ancient posts from September in there. Though whether or not those posts should remain for future people to view (doubt that people are going to but w/e) it another topic. You could also simply lock the current one and link to the old one if someone really does want to read the old thread.
 
-Marowak-
Many are of opinion Marowak despite its Thick Club, would actually not upset the UU metagame. For the most part people would fear a Pinsir or Rain sweep far more than a Marowak sweep.

-Steelix-
Steelix has received a very strong, if not the strongest recommendation all round for joining UU. There is a heavy physical sweeper bias in UU at the moment along with a lack of phazers. Steelix's great defenses and typing is needed to tame alot of threats without being too strong.

-Leafeon-
Theres been quite a strong movement for Leafeon's inclusion into UU mainly due to its bad coverage, phazing, threat to water and its Baton Passing would be welcome to the tier.
Click to expand...

I agree with these.

-Shedinja-
Again its believed just about any UU team can deal with this guy yet he brings great benefits. The biggest of which is to deal with rain teams and Clefable.

-Drapion-
Drapion's move down to UU has been discussed for possibly the longest time of everything here. Many feel underwhelmed by its performance and low attack base power despite Swords Dance. It is also believed it may fill a important defensive vacuum much like Poliwrath does and bring a 3rd possible new phazer and a solid counter to Absol.
Click to expand...

Bit dubious about these two. I agree that Drapion's defensive abilities would be handy, but as a sweeper he may be a bit too powerful. Worth trying him out though.

Similar situation for Shedinja. My main worry is that without Sandstorm and Hail, he may become all too easy to build a team around. Spin blockers in UU aren't exactly at the sturdiness level of Spiritomb and Dusknoir.

-Jynx-
Priority attacks rape this thing and Glaceon and Ninetales stable yet non-overwhelming prescence within UU have shown there may be room for Jynx afterall.
Click to expand...

Agree with this too. May end up too powerful, but as she dies so easily I think Jynx is worth giving a try in UU.

[/B][/U]-Scyther-
STAB Technician'd Aerial Ace off 110 attack and 105 speed is just far too much for most of UU to handle. The wide coverage it offers also stops many things using resistances to slow it down either. It doesn't help that it keeps U-Turning/Baton Passing out of its one or two counters.

-Pinsir-
Practically unified opinion now that it is out of here. It just about cripples everything in UU and many don't like the feeling of 'Heracross-lite' it gives off.
Click to expand...

Agree with both of these.

I went ahead and made a fresh thread to continue future discussions in Stark.
 
I'm would be quite glad to see most, if not all of these proposals go through. I defenitly agree with Pinsir and Scyther. Steelix and Leafeon are good aditions to UU I feel, and the rest should certainly be given a go.
 
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